Trap vs Trans?

[Fickle Zed]

Have some questions for writers/players, regarding content I may write (but, as this forum likes to point out and my name acknowledges, probably won't).

Would it be appropriate/desirable in a setting where TF mods are commonplace to have a feminine male "trap" character with no plans to transition? He would like dressing/looking feminine, rather than forced into it like Delilah. I don't know if most people who like traps would like to see an actual transition for trap characters, or if a trap as its own goal works fine. (I can make it a player choice, of course, but that might just lead to even more branches to consider on an already-heavy idea.)

What pronouns would be appropriate for a trap that stays male? Would it make sense to use feminine pronouns in public settings and masculine in private? Is pronoun use even notable enough to be made a player choice?

 

[Woider]

There are already "trap" characters in TiTS, like Liamme. I'd recommend trying to find that document and read through it, if you want inspiration/ideas for something similar.

 

[ScarletteKnight]

A "trap" is a feminine man, so they would be a "he". They're not transgender, so they wouldn't transition or use different pronouns. Visit Lerris, Kaede, and Embry in-game to see a transgender character, and Liamme, Sascha, and whatever other girly boys there may be to see a "trap" character.

 

[SoAndSo]

Sascha's not in the game yet.

 

[ScarletteKnight]

Oh, whoops. I read the doc, guess I got mixed up.

 

[Woider]

Sascha's not in the game yet.

Is Sascha teh doggo on the right?

 

[GothPastel]

Yeah, traps aren't trans. A male that presents excessively femininely can be called a trap, but someone assigned male at birth that has gender dysphoria and identifies as female is trans.
Technically you could be a trap and trans, for example being a transitioned trans male that chooses to dress and act femininely but still IDs as a male - but I don't think I've ever seen someone write something like that, I imagine it'd get confusing fast.
Traps use male pronouns, trans girls use female ones, trans boys use male ones.

Source: am a trans man

 

[Woider]

Traps use male pronouns, trans girls use female ones, trans boys use male ones.

As an addendum to this, non-binaries use neutral ones.

(Though I'm not an NB, myself.)

 

[SoAndSo]

Is Sascha teh doggo on the right?

Yeeee boi, check the full version:

https://forum.fenoxo.com/threads/wip-sascha-slutty-trap-doggo.10477/#post-210463

 

[Woider]

Yeeee boi, check the full version:

https://forum.fenoxo.com/threads/wip-sascha-slutty-trap-doggo.10477/#post-210463

All we need now is a bust or a picture of his boi-donkadonk.

 

[GothPastel]

As an addendum to this, non-binaries use neutral ones.

(Though I'm not an NB, myself.)

Yeah, generally they/them based ones are most accepted. I can just about manage using ze/hir too, but that's less common.

 

[Woider]

Yeah, generally they/them based ones are most accepted. I can just about manage using ze/hir too, but that's less common.

The only ones I've had interactions with use the former. It's much easier to remember, aswell.

 

[Savin]

I can just about manage using ze/hir too,

Be aware that those aren't allowed in TiTS writing.

 

[Emerald]

Technically you could be a trap and trans, for example being a transitioned trans male that chooses to dress and act femininely but still IDs as a male - but I don't think I've ever seen someone write something like that, I imagine it'd get confusing fast.

I see this sort of thing more in art than writing but js my boyfriend actually has a character like that, minus the actual trans bit but rather intersexed/born that way, basically a femboy cuntboi. And I've had people/followers in art sites I posted the character on ID him as male easily without any confusion, aside from one who didn't despite tags being blatant as fuck. >.>'
However like said I see it more drawn than written though, and it isn't common as many expect trans guys and/or intersexed/cuntboys to be masculine to some degree or else they aren't cuntboys but instead females or something. ffff (Though I do follow someone on a site that is legit both transmale and a femboy, it was interesting, and pretty adorable actually. Ha.)
If you aren't clear about that bit then yeah, that can get confusing. Unless you're intending to make a 'double trap'. lol

Especially in this community, I personally am bothered thinking about the responses to that whole femboy intersexed male thing... cuntboys themselves have shown to be completely alien to some of the fen fanbase. By that I mean, we had people in the blog posts back then call Gil when he first came to the pub build a 'flat-chested tomboy female', because people had no fucking idea what a cuntboy was, despite the fact that the opposite being dickgirls existed in this game for ages. x.x

 

[GothPastel]

Be aware that those aren't allowed in TiTS writing.

Don't worry, I have no intentions of using them.

 

[GothPastel]

Especially in this community. I personally am bothered thinking about the responses to that whole femboy intersexed male thing... cuntboys themselves have shown to be completely alien to some of the fen fanbase. By that I mean, we had people in the blog posts back then call Gil when he first came to the pub build a 'flat-chested tomboy female', because people had no fucking idea what a cuntboy was, despite the fact that the opposite being dickgirls existed in this game for ages. x.x

Fuck, really?
Hahah, good god people, c-boys are gr8.

 

[GothPastel]

The only ones I've had interactions with use the former. It's much easier to remember, aswell.

Yeah, it's more I know of people using ze/hir and I don't mind it. The nb people I know personally use they/them.

 

[Nonesuch]

Especially in this community, I personally am bothered thinking about the responses to that whole femboy intersexed male thing... cuntboys themselves have shown to be completely alien to some of the fen fanbase. By that I mean, we had people in the blog posts back then call Gil when he first came to the pub build a 'flat-chested tomboy female', because people had no fucking idea what a cuntboy was, despite the fact that the opposite being dickgirls existed in this game for ages. x.x

This community is overwhelmingly gynophile, so it's not all that surprising.

 

[HugsAlright]

There's already some "trap" NPCs in game, like Liamme, who identifies as male and uses male pronouns but takes people mistaking him for a girl as a compliment, and he used estrobloom to reach his girly state. Then there's Kase who's more of a femboy even though he doesn't actively enhance his feminine appearance in anyway. Then there's the up-and-coming Othana, who's a modded, trans-ish gryvain guy-herm trap who identifies as male despite his species being mono-gendered.

Of course, by the time you meet any of these characters in-game, they've already gone through their modifications (or just simply are girly, in Kase's case). I'm generally more enticed by the end products of TF rather than the proccess itself, but I'm also not against seeing it in-game as a characters content either.

I use masculine pronouns for all the traps I play/write, but that's because my definition of "trap" is a guy who is very effeminate but still identifies as male. That definition can change from person to person, though, as can be seen with Prai, who identifies as female and is trans, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Krynh]

Be aware that those aren't allowed in TiTS writing.

Why's that? (just curious)

 

[Karretch]

Not to bog this down with social issues, but some here might also specifically identify traps as male to an absurd amount of "hey, look, this is a guy" because there's another side to the issue. I only recently learned that "trap" had become (maybe always was?) a transphobic slur. We have plenty of transsexual people in the community and we're not that kind of asshole to deny them their identity, even if a few bad eggs poke their heads up every now and then.

 

[ScarletteKnight]

It definitely always was a slur, even if not intentionally. I also really hate "shemale", but it doesn't stop me from enjoying Kaede's content, no matter how much they repeat it.

 

[balitz Method]

As some others have said traps and trains aren't the same thing and the difference is rooted in some crossed cultural lines. Western culture is exceedingly rigid with gender roles and expressions of these and androgyny has classically been used for either horror or comedy - basically there's v. little context for it being considered beautiful. This is in contrast to Far East Asia where many cultures -have- classically held androgyny up as a beauty standard and traditional fashion isn't as sharply segregated. There's also some places where there's a unique attitude toward it altogether (Thailand's ladyboy phenomenon, for instance).

Traps have their roots in that sort of environment where, as many people growing up playing Japanese video games and such noted in their crudely teenage manner, often if the heroes were supposed to be good-looking they weren't gruffy and scruffy but delicate-featured and downright pretty. A step further are characters who're androgynous enough that other characters mistake them for girls initially and they may even crossdress to further confuse things (though it's not necessary). These generally all still think of themselves as male; it's actually fairly rare for one of them to be a trap -and- transgendered. As they often say it's more about the pursuit of cuteness or pretty looks as an ideal rather than a gender expression. That break away from preconceptions (that a guy who looks feminine is a wimp/sissy and can't be manly, that only girls can look cute, the restricting of a particular look to one gender or the other and on and on) is what makes the concept cool.

And that sort of attitude fits more easily into this game where most anyone has easy access to sex-altering splices. It stands to reason that in an environment where people can change their bodies to greater extents that many would pursue mixed expressions that don't really fit into the much more rigid confines of current attitudes towards these things.

 

[balitz Method]

A "trap" is a feminine man, so they would be a "he". They're not transgender, so they wouldn't transition or use different pronouns. Visit Lerris, Kaede, and Embry in-game to see a transgender character, and Liamme, Sascha, and whatever other girly boys there may be to see a "trap" character.

Although this can be confusing in-game since there isn't an actual mechanic in place to handle it from this angle on the PC's end. The way the game calculates it if your male character looks girly enough it'll tick over to "she". You can override this by setting it to he but then that can screw with some of the trap-specific flavor text. Some individual pieces of content calculate it differently (Ramis off the top of my head) but it's not even close to standard.

While we're talking about it it would be nice to think about making a possible adjustment to the way that's done since playing these types of characters seems fairly popular with the player base. Maybe an option to lock a character into the androgynous category and have that one handle the checks differently?

 

[Emerald]

Fuck, really?
Hahah, good god people, c-boys are gr8.

Yuuuup. Comments gave me a headache reading them. I think some were bordering onto the transphobic line so even bigger headache. x.x
They are indeed gr8, too bad they're super underrated, but oh well, that's the fandom for ya

Although this can be confusing in-game since there isn't an actual mechanic in place to handle it from this angle on the PC's end. The way the game calculates it if your male character looks girly enough it'll tick over to "she". You can override this by setting it to he but then that can screw with some of the trap-specific flavor text. Some individual pieces of content calculate it differently (Ramis off the top of my head) but it's not even close to standard.

Nope, there is. That's long since been dealt with. The game's code now can recognize you as a trap just by bodytype alone. You need to be a androgynous or feminine looking guy with a penis and B-cup breasts or smaller to be classified as a femboy/trap on the PC's end. The decent trap scenes I've seen (The ones I interact with anyways, Like Ramis and the Tavros Brothel) exclusively refer your femboy as male anyways, it's hard written in the text.
The gender pronouns thing doesn't screw with that anymore like it used to. Now you just need the body for it, and if writing for them usually docs have something like "If PC is Femboy" or something like it. I mean heck, I have an androgynous male Kui-Tan character and I still manage to unlock the trap scenes with him despite the gender selection being set to auto, because he still fits the requirements for being a trappy guy. And I play as all of my femboys/traps identifying exclusively as male and I've still managed to unlock the same trap exclusive scenes because of that requirement met and the gender pref issue removed. (Thankfully too, because having to change them to female/auto just to access the scenes and then back to male once they were done was tedious as fuck when Ramis was the first to do that sort of restriction.)
But there's just the case of there not being a whole LOT of scenes accounting for that new system. Most sex scenes in the game will still refer you as the usual 'he/she' depending on respective fem/masc weight and gender prefs. And some scenes like those that Savin wrote that are said to be 'for traps' treat your femboy more as a dickgirl/shemale than a femboy/trap, so I can't really say they count as scenes for actual femboys myself.

 

[GothPastel]

I think some were bordering onto the transphobic line so even bigger headache.

Ugh, suddenly even more glad I didn't see those.

 

[ScarletteKnight]

Ugh, suddenly even more glad I didn't see those.

You and me both...

While we're on the subject, I absolutely love and appreciate Ramis, Ciaran, and Busky treating me as a woman instead of a girly boy, it really is amazing.

 

[Woider]

Why's that? (just curious)

I'd imagine it's so that there are certain standards sets of pronouns for the game. Also, pronouns like "ze" and "hir" are so rare and niche than an un-informed player might be very, very confused. But everyone knows of the singular "they".

Also: Feminine cuntboys are cute.

 

[GothPastel]

It definitely always was a slur, even if not intentionally. I also really hate "shemale", but it doesn't stop me from enjoying Kaede's content, no matter how much they repeat it.

Yeah, trap definitely is when used to refer to an actual trans girl. Same with cuntboy being used for an actual trans boy, but we seem to get less... attention. I won't talk about the terms trap/shemale because it's not my area, but personally I don't mind the general idea of a fictional male with a vagina who's comfiest that way being referred to as a cuntboy (I mean, I wrote one), but if someone called me that, I'd deck them.

 

[Dreadful123]

Fuck, really?
Hahah, good god people, c-boys are gr8.

You're acting like 80% of this game's community would actually fap to anything OTHER than dickgirls/herms with train sized penises and submissive, one-dimensional female characters

It sucks I know