The Island of Doctor Lessau [SUBMITTED]

Nonesuch

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Aug 27, 2015
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Notice how most male characters in the game are sub-leaning.  This is not accidental.  Making the PC dominant in sex scenes with a male character puts more of the focus on the PC and less on the guy.  The guy is a prop.  Walt barely talks in his scenes in favor of mostly growling and is basically ear-scratched into submission immediately, while Cynthia is very talkative and takes charge much more frequently during all of her scenes.  The only major exceptions to this are characters like the New Texans or Gene, for whom male dominance is part of their fetish set.  I managed to strike what I think is an okay balance with Lessau, but it's a difficult balancing act.

That's sweeping and not particularly true - I would characterise most of the named males in the game as being neither particularly submissive nor dominant, happy to swing or pitch regardless if some no-strings fun is available. Certainly this is true of Vahn, Geoff, Semith, the pool boys, Burt, Dally... hell, even Big T and Quenton can be characterised similarly. The likes of Jerome and Able are outliers. You have to preposition them, and that perhaps makes them appear submissive according to our own cultural mores, where we expect guys to be making the first move. But that is simply a function of the game itself. Almost all NPCs that aren't openly trying to rape you have to be prepositioned by the player, because otherwise they'd be deeply obnoxious, regardless of gender.


Writing male characters is usually harder, because as you said yourself, this dynamic favours female characters a lot more - players are very likely to be less bothered by sexually aggressive females, and it feels more natural to preposition them. However, you're projecting your own tastes, and your frustrations with write a lecherous male character, when you say "Guys that aren't submissive are props".
 
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Noob Salad

Captain Shitpost
Aug 26, 2015
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Those that hate him really hate him, but those that love him are really, really into everything he brings to the table.

Nonsense, I hate him (as a character) but love what he brings to the table (his scenes).


If we're going to get into sexuality, I have something to mention. I can't get into scenes with "normal" male characters, like at all. Believe me, I've tried. They need to have some sort of gimmick or fetish. Like with Kelt, I enjoyed watching (reading) my PC be dominated. With pretty much any bull on New Texas, I enjoyed watching my PC be treated (heh) like a bimbo hyper-feminine slut. But with everyone else it was just boring, like a really bad porn. Although to be fair, I'm not really interested in vanilla porn either. I guess that's my fault for being exposed to so much smut.


Of course, this doesn't happen with female or futa characters; I'm attracted to both and can enjoy literally any scene with them (including ones without any smut in them, of course). Also, with NPCs that are none of the above, like tentacle beasts, it's a bit different as well.
 
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Noob Salad

Captain Shitpost
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I wanted to tag you to get you to read my edit but the forum didn't let me. Also I couldn't tell if those were |, I, or l.
 
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Nonesuch

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Again, there is a question of personal taste heavily inflecting opinion here. Your dislike of guys is so deep it's practically a psychosis, so pretty much any attitude a sexually active male NPC strikes is not going to go down well with you - and neither is traditionally masculine behaviour in female/futa, as with Kiro. However very many people enjoy said traits of self-confidence, assertiveness and libidinousness in their porn. As is often said, one of the big appeals of futa is that it allows for sexually aggressive characters with a prick without having a disgusting guy in there ruining everything. Futa is the male gaze composite.


On the flip side, I think it's easy to say "nobody dislikes sub males" but I'd qualify that with "nobody particularly likes them either, unless they're basically girls". Straight up, all those swinging guys I mentioned up there, nobody gives much of a shit about any of them - except gay men, who are a very small slice of the audience. Hunky T and rapey Dane are who players are most likely to say they want to fuck, stereotypical, brazen pigs whom you actually rarely see hate for. I've heard many players say they find the perceived passivity of males in CoC/TiTS very frustrating. Let's say you love your bimbofication fetish, you easily find the drugs you need to turn yourself in a giggling bouncy airhead, and... you've still got to hit on guys to get them to even notice you. Only the dragon and the hypno-toad take advantage of you! Why doesn't anyone at least try and buy you a drink?


I agree strongly with what you say about Kelt actually being a very effective vector for porn, despite all the flak he took. It would be much better if more characters were written like him, instead of being catch-all blobs that can't have too much interesting going on in their shit because everyone can access it and it might not make sense for someone. And yeah, it sucks how futa get away with attitudes male npcs never would. But our audience get off on stereotypes. They want dirt when they come here, which arises from our own cultural mores. I think you have to kind of accept that and carefully embrace it if you produce fap fuel.
 
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Captain Shitpost
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Futa is the male gaze composite.

Blowing my mind here bro. I thought futa was disgusting when I first saw it back on 4chan at the young and impressionable age of-I mean at the legal age in my country.


I like Dane too.
 

Lashcharge

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Aug 27, 2015
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Nonsense, I hate him (as a character) but love what he brings to the table (his scenes).


If we're going to get into sexuality, I have something to mention. I can't get into scenes with "normal" male characters, like at all. Believe me, I've tried. They need to have some sort of gimmick or fetish. Like with Kelt, I enjoyed watching (reading) my PC be dominated. With pretty much any bull on New Texas, I enjoyed watching my PC be treated (heh) like a bimbo hyper-feminine slut. But with everyone else it was just boring, like a really bad porn. Although to be fair, I'm not really interested in vanilla porn either. I guess that's my fault for being exposed to so much smut.


Of course, this doesn't happen with female or futa characters; I'm attracted to both and can enjoy literally any scene with them (including ones without any smut in them, of course). Also, with NPCs that are none of the above, like tentacle beasts, it's a bit different as well.

Curious. Which other male characters have scenes that you can get into?
 

Noob Salad

Captain Shitpost
Aug 26, 2015
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Any New Texan, Dane, Wetraxxel. Just off the top my head, and only from TiTS.
 

Noob Salad

Captain Shitpost
Aug 26, 2015
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It's all about the girl being burdened by the presence of the dong and not really knowing what to do with it.

hnnng submissive embarrassed futas are also a-okay


Look up Sponty.
 

Xeivous

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Sep 21, 2015
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I'm mostly ambivalent about pushy males, however what I really hate is not being able to challenge them in any manner to get them to back off or even respect you. Like Kelt was a cuntbag but you couldn't do much of a shit to him whilst still learning the bow and if you did pull shit I think it got you kicked off the Farm, which was annoying. Dane I actually kinda like despite being a dick as if you beat his ass into the ground on the first planet he actually doesn't even want to try to fight you on the second.


Doesn't have to end in my PC being able to top, but I do very much prefer that outcome.
 
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EmperorG

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On the flip side, I think it's easy to say "nobody dislikes sub males" but I'd qualify that with "nobody particularly likes them either, unless they're basically girls". Straight up, all those swinging guys I mentioned up there, nobody gives much of a shit about any of them - except gay men, who are a very small slice of the audience. Hunky T and rapey Dane are who players are most likely to say they want to fuck, stereotypical, brazen pigs whom you actually rarely see hate for. I've heard many players say they find the perceived passivity of males in CoC/TiTS very frustrating. Let's say you love your bimbofication fetish, you easily find the drugs you need to turn yourself in a giggling bouncy airhead, and... you've still got to hit on guys to get them to even notice you. Only the dragon and the hypno-toad take advantage of you! Why doesn't anyone at least try and buy you a drink?

Now hold up, while I agree with most of what you've had to say, I do disagree with you about the non-sub/dom men being unliked infavor of the men like Big T or Dane. I vastly prefer guys like Vahn to either Dane or Big T, and while I also prefer subby guys like Able and Embry, I don't mind guys that are switches. But dommy men are just a turn off to me, I can slide with it if its a girl or futa, but a male dom isn't what gets my motor running and hence I ignore them (In fact, I don't think I've ever actually seen Dane's sex scenes, other than the one on Poe A by accident)


Moving on to a more general point: Yeah pretty much no one cares for the guy in regular porn, and let me tell you it gets tiring to see the same guy in like every other porn video (Damnit Brazzers, why do you only have like 3-5 male employees!?), and annoying when the camera focuses on them and their terrible lines.
 
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Noob Salad

Captain Shitpost
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inb4 embry is grill
 

Wsan

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It's funny, because I hate both of them with a pretty fierce passion, but I try to keep it to myself. I try not to complain that much about what I don't like. I don't know how well I manage, though... :$  

:|  You post in every NT thread about how you want to wipe it clean with nuclear fire because it's an abomination. So does half the forum, though, so that's not so much of a knock on you as it is pointing out how much people like to shit on content others enjoy.


The problem with writing aggressive males is that players fucking hate them. Kelt is symptomatic of it; there's a number of players that just despise control being taken from them, and those who dislike it really REALLY dislike it. You can see it in any thread about the Red Myr or Dr. Badger or Kelt, which always winds up being the same circular discussion/circlejerk about how morally shit everyone involved is and we all walk away further entrenched in our own beliefs. It's good that there's at least people on both sides in that discussion, though. In any case it's basically impossible to write any aggressive character and even if you do, it has to be so blatantly signposted for all of the people who can't handle their power fantasy being disturbed so they can bail that it honestly really sucks the fun out of it all around ("Do you, Sir/Madame Steele, consent to being non-consensually molested? Sign here and here. Here too, please. If you'll turn the page...").


I don't see a solution to it because player choice is absolutely paramount, but I do sometimes regret that characters can't be a little more forward. If an NPC could treat the PC like the PC treats some NPCs, that'd be great. I actually feel like CoC was a lot better about this than TiTS, but maybe that's because of the nature of random encounters wherein any character can show up and tell you to fuck them, or fight for it. At least there it was an actual option instead of being three menus deep inside a cave with a sign outside saying 'vacancy for partner in rough sex - inquire within'. But hey, be the change you want to see in the world.
 
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Nonesuch

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I don't see a solution to it because player choice is absolutely paramount

It surprises me you would say this because you already found the answer, my man - bad ends.


One of the things I'd like to do in some distant future is go through the game from top to bottom and either add more, or expand upon the ones which were obviously put in when the dungeon writer was flagging badly and wanted it to be over. Actually got two written out and half a dozen possible concepts.
 
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Nonesuch

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Now hold up, while I agree with most of what you've had to say, I do disagree with you about the non-sub/dom men being unliked infavor of the men like Big T or Dane. I vastly prefer guys like Vahn to either Dane or Big T, and while I also prefer subby guys like Able and Embry, I don't mind guys that are switches.

I mean, I wouldn't write casual, fun-loving guys if I didn't like them too. What I am saying is, the like for them is in the minority as compared to "real men", because the latter is what a lot of players want to bounce their fantasies off.

That being said, I don't think I've ever actually hit a bad end in TiTS, so if that's already how it's done, then ignore me. :D  

Well quite. You have to try to get the bad ends in this game, except in the case of one or two boss fights (thanks again Deconstruction Unit! What a sexy bad end you were.)  Anyone not interested in them plays conservatively, saves often and immediately turns off if they lose.


Anyways we should move this discussion to another thread, if there is anything left to say, because once again some innocent's ES thread has been co-opted to argue the toss about nothing relevant.
 

Xiokir

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Dec 9, 2015
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Oh god why did I have to try and look smart by answering that question?

You've created the controversial topic for the week, congrats! 


As for feedback, I don't think Walt is so bad, but is a little flat. I don't think you should give up though, the only way to get better at doing something is to do it (unless you don't want to, of course.)


 I've once heard that writing female characters is hard (in relation to movies,attempts to make a female usually turn out flat, boring, or just a trope). It just seems it's the opposite when it comes to smut because the focus is mostly put on females, so I don't blame you for not having the drive or experience to write a male character.


I'm going to keep my response to the controversy short: Everyone has different tastes, but content is written based on the demand for it (or dependent on the writer's personal tastes)  :p
 

Noob Salad

Captain Shitpost
Aug 26, 2015
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ITT: Porn is serious fucking business.
 
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EmperorG

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ITT: Porn is serious fucking business.

People have died for it/because of it.


But at least it isn't as silly as the time people went to war over a bucket.
 

irioth

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May 12, 2016
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Like Holstaria, Lupinol seems another useful and interesting addition to the game's arsenal of TF mods. From the writeup, it seems it is going to be a way for female PC that want to shun the male/herm Treatment options to gain the equivalent of Pheromone Cloud, a most welcome development. More development options for non-futa Steele, yay.


I am rather eager to have this mod in the game. Is it planned to be coded and inserted piecemeal as you write it, or shall we have to wait for its development to be completed ?
 
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Couch

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Aug 26, 2015
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I've made an effort to allow all of these to be coded one at a time.


Also added a new one just now based off a Mysty comment.
 
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shadefalcon

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Oct 13, 2015
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I find it surprising I haven´t posted here yet...


I love the idea of helping out your own company rather than being the errand boy for a company that´s technically one of your future rivals...


I´ve skimmed through some of your documents , only the TFs (I don´t want to spoil myself to much...) and I like what I see. I do like the scent perk in that new doc, but I´ve  actually never played that long as a treated male, so I have yet to encounter any pheromone based sex scenes or dialogue variations. Are those part of the treated male exclusive scenes?
 

Nik_van_Rijn

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Sep 10, 2015
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Along this line of thinking, will we be able to make Orange Myr a SteeleTech exclusive as well?

It's not entirely clear to me how the legalities of that item's research and development shook out in the end.


On one hand, Dr. McAllister made them in his own free time and using PC's funding, but on the other hand, he should be legally bound by his contract not to work for Xenogen's competitors and the Xenogen is told to really hold their lead researchers tightly by the genitals.


The item is also sold to you through the Xenogen shop...
 
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Couch

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Aug 26, 2015
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My understanding of the situation is that orange pills, if unlocked, would be sold both by Xenogen and Steele Tech, both technically producing it for you personally rather than owning it.  I believe Captain Steele personally owns the rights to the drug due to having commissioned it.


I'm not writing a questline to get the pills without working with McAllister, that's a can of worms I have no interest in opening.
 
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Xeivous

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Sep 21, 2015
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Speaking of the Myr, could our resident doctor be capable of recreating some of the racial perks in a less transformative form that have crept into the game if given items and money? I recall there being some upset about the Myr Venom perk being tied to a specific transformation.
 

Darkwarpalg6

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Aug 28, 2015
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Speaking of the Myr, could our resident doctor be capable of recreating some of the racial perks in a less transformative form that have crept into the game if given items and money? I recall there being some upset about the Myr Venom perk being tied to a specific transformation.

I would suggest not asking Couch specifically about anything to do with myr venom ;p. I think the hate was that the venom was a no-drawbacks trait that applied directly to combat. Anyway, those racial traits stick so long as you don't use the opposing color's pill even if you TF out of being a myr.
 
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Milkman

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Aug 28, 2015
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I would suggest not asking Couch specifically about anything to do with myr venom ;p. I think the hate was that the venom was a no-drawbacks trait that applied directly to combat. Anyway, those racial traits stick so long as you don't use the opposing color's pill even if you TF out of being a myr.

Actually from what I recall his hate for the venom goes beyond that/ is more based on the principle that dosing others with an addictive substance to take advantage of them is objectively an ethically abhorrent thing to do... Myr venom is basically self produced,  addictive date rape drugs. 


In a fantasy context I find it really hot (I still wish having Dzan cum were somehow possible)  but yeah Myr Venom is genuinely pretty bad shit from a moral standpoint.