Question about the Gods (Spoilers within)

[LordTarroc]

So, in the game if you ask Kiyoko about the Astral Plane, she will say the following "This, is what we kitsune call the Astral Plane. It's a... how should I put it? A different realm which belongs to Keros. The orbs of transference, one of which you now possess, were artifacts crafted by the trickster god to serve as gateways to his Dream. Each of the seven Living Gods possess a Dream, a realm of their shaping, and this so happens to be his."

Kiyoko got trapped within the Astral Plane during the Godswar, but if you complete the Convocation of Mirrors with the best result, you will learn that the Seven are NOT the Gods they claim to be, but are instead powerful Wraiths who consumed spirits/emotions during the Godswar and achieved a higher form of sentience, at least to the best of my understanding, and decided to act like they were the Seven Living Gods.

With the Keros we meet having come into existence during the Godswar, due to the Wraiths not being part of the world before Estelore ripped a hole in reality, where did the Kitsune get the Amulets of Transference? Kiyoko seems to talk about it like something that was normal enough, which at least to me suggests this wasn't a brand new thing she got. Was the Godswar just incredibly long, and the Wraiths that "became The Seven" were just around a long time during the conflict?

If you have 32 or more kits with Kiyoko, and then free her from the Astral Plane, Keros will have a special reaction and will reference Kiyoko's ancestor, if I recall correctly mentioning he had a great deal of children with her. This cannot be true however, as Keros could not have been around at that point, as he DID NOT EXIST yet. He could just be making a reference to something he learned about the past, and learned that there was a myth/story that Kiyoko's ancestor had a ton of children with someone who was believed to be Keros, but if that's the case, who did Kiyoko's ancestor have a ton of kids with? I figure the Kitsune are soulless "empty" creatures as Keros calls them, because he, as a Wraith, cannot create Souls, but if Wraith Keros did not create Kitsune, as they clearly existed before the Godswar, why were they soulless before he existed?



I absolutely love and adore the plot twist that the Seven Living Gods we know and meet in the game aren't actually the gods people believe them to be, but certain parts of the lore/world building don't make sense to me with the understanding that the Seven didn't exist in practice before the Godswar! During the Convocation of Mirrors plot, Nareva seems to imply, at least in my opinion that the Seven didn't even exist in truth, saying the Gods "perhaps might once have existed to provoke belief in them, but had long since left this world if they ever truly were here"

If the those gods didn't exist, how did the Amulets of Transference exist? Who created the Kitsune? Who created the valkyries? They seem to have existed before the Godswar, but Lumia herself didn't exist before the Godswar! If the valkyries existed before the Godswar and they HAD been created by Lumia, the REAL Lumia, surely they would have pointed out "Hey that's not Lumia!"

Also, as a side point, were all of the Wraiths strong enough to achieve this sort of thing? Could any Wraith do things like transform people into different races like Keros turning the Champion into a Kitsune, or Lumia transforming the Champion into a valkyrie? Or were the seven wraiths that became "The Seven" unique? Were they just way stronger than the others? Did the worship people gave them strengthen them, sorta like how people worshipping a Deity in Dungeons and Dragons makes it stronger, and so the more worshippers a Deity has, the more powerful that Deity is, becoming a Lesser Deity, or a Greater Deity?

I'm struggling to understand how the plot-twist of the Seven actually being Wraiths works in practice, because like I said I absolutely love it, so I'm asking for help in putting these things together, if anyone understands better than I do, please help me out.

 

[Ace Hangman]

I can't say what is true or definite or whether anything is correct or true, just because one or more people (in game) say it is (even if it probably is). The mystery and discovery (and sometimes the wild theories are what make it all fun).

Have you considered not believing everything the Trickster God says? Have you considered not believing everything a kitsune says. Have you considered not believing everything you hear from any god? I mean... they might be big ol' liars with huge secrets themselves, possibly even having a whole schtick of keeping knowledge and things secret.

Even when someone thinks they're being truthful doesn't make what they say the truth. Keros created the kitsune. Maybe there was more than one Keros. Maybe Keros went back in time. Maybe Keros rewrote history by sneaking into the Fabled Halls of Record on the Lost Plane and wrote a new chapter after making a bet with Velun.

Have you considered that the Dread Pirate Roberts might look far too young than would seem possible for someone that did the things the Dread Pirate Roberts is reported to have done, and over a long period of time? And yet everyone calls him the Dread Pirate Roberts, he calls himself that, he has the Dread Pirate Robert's treasure, ship, and crew as far as anyone else can see and tell. What possible explanation could there be? That there was never a Dread Pirate Roberts because there's a discrepancy? Or that maybe there were two, or three, or more?

Most likely it was just Keros that created the Amulets of Transference that are encountered during the Gods War. That doesn't mean there weren't others created before the Godswar or that the Astral Plane (or a similar one, since they need not be linked, otherwise Kiyoko would have probably bumped into someone in another 'instance'). There are gods, powers, and entities other than the Seven that existed (and possibly still exist, like the Wyld Trees), as well as the Mages of Estelore and countless other cabals (and things dropping in through portals). They could have made amulets, Your assumption that there never was a Keros before there was a Keros might seem impossible. Or it might be the truth, but maybe some things don't and shouldn't be thought about too much.

Spoiler

(and then waits for Savin to reply and just tell you the answer) .

 

[Lostname475]

The kitsune are interesting as they seem to be the only godsworn race to have existed before the godswar.

 

[TheShepard256]

IIRC, The Observer (the writer for most of the kitsune) once outright stated that he believes the existence of the kitsune's communal soul prior to the current Keros indicates that the prior Keros - and by extension, the rest of the Seven - was real, but that hasn't been confirmed because then Savin couldn't resist writing a "the old gods return" plot into the game. Though I could be misremembering any part of that, including all of it. That said, I've no idea what natural evolutionary pressures would cause a species to develop a single communal soul rather than individual ones like every other species (unless they have a predator that preys upon the souls of that species specifically, which I think we'd've heard about if that were the case), so in the absence of any other evidence, the "there was a real Keros before" theory makes the most sense to me.

Who created the valkyries? They seem to have existed before the Godswar, but Lumia herself didn't exist before the Godswar! If the valkyries existed before the Godswar and they HAD been created by Lumia, the REAL Lumia, surely they would have pointed out "Hey that's not Lumia!"

From what I understand, one of the Seven needs to be physically present in order to make an individual soulbound to them, which all valkyries are. As you stated, Nareva says that if the original Seven did exist, they'd left a long time prior - as such, any valkyries created by the old Lumia probably would've died of old age before the current Lumia was awakened, and would thus not be able to tell she's not the same Lumia.

Did the worship people gave them strengthen them, sorta like how people worshipping a Deity in Dungeons and Dragons makes it stronger, and so the more worshippers a Deity has, the more powerful that Deity is, becoming a Lesser Deity, or a Greater Deity?

IIRC, Word of Savin is that this is the case, or at least close to it. Specifically, the current Seven's powers are derived from their worship; for example, the current Keros can do all the same things as the original Keros because people believe he's the original Keros.

 

[meowster]

from what I remember, there were 7 gods, each for certain species. but all 7 of them abandoned savarra and went away. why we dont know. where? dont know but they were gone, and people still prayed and worshipped them.

then someone tore open the fabric of space and poured in the wraiths. there probably is a hierarchy in the wraiths, the one wraith kas is useless against gets one shot by lumia. so yeah shes stronger, like a general leading a part of the army.

7 of those high ranking wraiths started feeling. actually feeling things. why seven? co incidence? maybe there were hundreds of the old gods instead of 7. but 7 wraiths turned on their kind. 7 were enough to turn the tide of war, the 7 who turned were some of the most powerful wraiths invading savarra.

to help the natives, they , formless wraiths, TOOK ON the forms of the old gods the natives believed in. pretended to be those old gods who were missing, pretended to return to their people. gifted the mortals and men with gifts, of power. these newly inspired natives, along with the fake gods defeated and thwarted the wraith invasion.

We dont know where the real gods are, but they did exist once, and the wraiths, to their own end, [of not wanting to be just wraiths anymore and wanted to live in savarra] took on the guises of the old gods. maybe there were more gods, and the 7 either cherry picked ones they liked or simply the ones they had knowledge of, OR there were only 7 original gods and the number of wraiths that turned matched it perfectly somehow.

 

[Ace Hangman]

We know there's more than Seven gods, as for whether those gods are 'real', or existed, never existed, or still exist is unknown to anyone but Savin (or the creator of the god). So, theoretically, if there were eight Wraiths that obtained 'feelings' (and were strong enough) it would just be called The Eight in game. There probably are, but that doesn't mean they all got together to form a band.

The anubian's patron deity is also supposedly their progenitor, a mysterious figure known as Aurera. Symbolized as an extremely tall hermaphrodite that looks to be like a cross between a lupine and a jackal, and always depicted with at least four humans who barely reach her hips. According to legend, all anubians are the descendents of this figure and her human harem-mates and worshippers.

Now, this could just be another powerful wraith taking the role and not part of the Seven, it could be a demon from another world that came through a portal aeons ago, it could be Lumia just in a different form, just like Sorra appears in different forms to her worshippers. It's all theological debate (again, until the master creator definitively states otherwise). Real or fiction, I don't think we need to go into it, though, since they don't really come into play (like Velun himself, but he's mentioned since some of his followers are there). It's like debating if Coyote or Thunderbird or Zeus was real. Ultimately, I think the answer is that the original Seven at least, in some form or another, did exist and either faded, went into slumber, or left for other planes long ago.