Possible demerits and/or consequences of selling your soul

Metronome

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Sep 5, 2020
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First of all, let me establish the meaning behind the title as to avoid confusion.
By demerits I do not mean permanent stat changes or penalties, but instead a change in how the player would experience content.
Second of all, I've written this at ~8 am and I have pulled an all-nighter beforehand, so I apologize in advance for any lack of coherent logic or loss of said coherency.

Now then allow me to elaborate: as of writing this post, the only option to sell ones soul is Keros in order to become a Kitsune and his champion, while Lumia is (to my knowledge) being worked on. Lets focus on the possible consequence on becoming a Kitsune with a bit of background lore (cause they have enough lore to make the argument in the first place :V). Lore spoilers ahead btw.

Based on the established lore, the only place Kitsune are truly welcome would be The Old Country (on the virtue that they basically own the place) and their established dens, the reason of course being the Kitsune's true nature, to quote The Observers Document on Kiyoko: "When all the prettiness and layers of euphemism are peeled away, she's a fully corrupted monster whose preferred form of sustenance is the life-force of other sapient beings.".

Which in the Old Country itself isn't much of a problem, that's why all that etiquette is for after all, to once again quote The Observer: "[...] it's not just for their own benefit, but for the benefit of other peoples in their native lands whom they live with. Within vampire society and their own natures, there has to be a very rigid and strict set of rules for how they interact and deal with each other and the people around them. The other peoples of the Old Country have to be assured that no, the vampire cannot do as he pleases, he has to obey the rules and etiquette and play by the numbers; that when you see one of them approach and solicit you know what you are getting yourself into and what your expected rights are under the ancient agreements, and most importantly, who is going to back that up under what penalties."

You could say that the lack of knowledge of said etiquette by pretty much the rest of the world, is what causes most problems for their dens outside the old country. To the natives of most other nations, the Kitsune are after all nothing more that life sucking monsters worthy only of death or exile. It is the reason Kohaku has to disguise herself when acquiring wares outside the den, cause if she didn't she'd be turned into a rug by the locals.

Our dear little champion on the other hand can talk and interact with the locals all willy nilly like he/she didn't just sprout an extra set of ears and tails. But alright lets just say that's cause most locals like the denizens of Hawkethorne already knew the champion for a while or just simply don't care, cause they got more urgent problems like working and getting food on the table. But the end of Winter City was only Act 1, so there will be more areas to explore!

For example, the citizens of Khor'minos could react a lot more wary if the champion just so happens to be a "life-force sucking monster" than just a regular old Human or Elf. While certain people in Tronarii could end up sending mercenaries after your fluffy ass if they end up spotting more than one tail dangling off your backside.

Of course you could argue that any sane person with a will to survive wouldn't attack a champion of one of the seven in broad daylight, but then again greed and corruption tends to override said self preservation instincts, anything can be arranged for the correct sum after all.

To conclude this rambling: Becoming a Kitsune for example could cause the champion to be met with alot more distrust or even outright hostility by the NPC's, owed to the true nature of the Kitsune race.

Thanks for reading my semi coherent post.

tl;dr
Selling your soul and turning yourself into the equivalent of a fiend for phenomenal cosmic power and servitude to one of the seven, might not be entirely free of problems. Perhaps you should have read the fine print a bit more closely my dear.
 

The Observer

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While it would be interesting to have more reaction from other people to you being a race with various implications -- especially a valkyrie, when a larger chunk of the Marches' population venerates Lumia -- it's not likely to be something that's going to materialise for the same reason that we don't have most NPCs react to your race in general.

It is food for thought!
 

LonelyHydra

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Apr 26, 2020
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OK, I had my cup of tea now. I joked about it before, but it did hit a nerve when I understood how divine empowerment worked. Mostly because soulnessness == autistic tendencies too often in fantasy. What's different and interesting here is how giving up your soul is also deeply integrated to the "good" religion of the setting, even if that fact is hidden from the general population.

Agreeing to give your soul requires some very strong beliefs in that deity as well, in return for their control over them. If the team ever gets a second pass after everything is finalized, maybe punch up the MC's dialogue by having it change based on who you sell their soul to.

I think these kind of suggestions are brought up because the whole game is the Champion's arc of self-discovery. Reactivity to what the player does is important to that, it's sometimes less work for similar reward to go more suggestive: people in game like Kasyrra will dictate who your character is, but whether or not that's actually true is up to how the player wants their character to be. (I still thnk it's a trap to think corruption is always being more honest with yourself; it's more like reducing your own complexity of self to fit an object of (sexual) desire.)
 

WolframL

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Binding yourself to one of the Seven doesn't leave you soul-less, it just means your soul is no longer on speaking terms with your body because one of the gods is now holding onto it. Even with Keros' offer which makes you a member of the race that would normally set off a Detect Demon spell (if such a thing existed in the setting) you still have your soul, it's just not currently on you and you have a 'counterfeit' one to fool anyone (like Kasyrra) who wants you for your soul.

If you've seen the Winter City Catacombs quest, it's clear this applies to those who bind themselves to other gods as well. One of the ways that quest resolves only works because a soul-bonded individual still has their empathy. The fact that they're able to persist as a ghost is also pretty significant.
 

LonelyHydra

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Binding yourself to one of the Seven doesn't leave you soul-less, it just means your soul is no longer on speaking terms with your body because one of the gods is now holding onto it. Even with Keros' offer which makes you a member of the race that would normally set off a Detect Demon spell (if such a thing existed in the setting) you still have your soul, it's just not currently on you and you have a 'counterfeit' one to fool anyone (like Kasyrra) who wants you for your soul.

If you've seen the Winter City Catacombs quest, it's clear this applies to those who bind themselves to other gods as well. One of the ways that quest resolves only works because a soul-bonded individual still has their empathy. The fact that they're able to persist as a ghost is also pretty significant.
By soul, I also mean "essence of being", to borrow a term from elsewhere. I may be getting caught up on an organized religion metaphor, though.
 

Metronome

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Is that also the reason on why the Kitsune Champion doesnt have to feed on other people's life force?

The Kitsune need to feed off life force due to them not having individual souls but one big "oversoul" they all share (Its also the reason why they tend to not feed off each other).
When Keros takes your soul and replaces it with the counterfeit to fool beings like Kassyra he said something along the lines of "A fake is best build around the truth", so while it might be a fake, its probably adequate to sustain your new form for you to not have the need to feed off other beings life force. This could of course change once you defeated Kasyrra and he fully claims your soul, since you wont be needing to fool the demons anymore.
 

Starstruck

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Dec 11, 2015
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A decoy works best when it looks and feels real basically, hence why the Champion doesn't need to feed because their decoy soul staves off the hunger pangs that their fellow Kitsune feel.

Meanwhile Kasyrra will inevitably take notice if she looks twice, but at a glance she can't tell the difference.

Why doesn't he fashion such decoys for all of his people you might ask then, but most likely producing them en masse like that is more trouble than it's worth.
 

Karamaru

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Jan 31, 2021
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I can also imagine that giving the Champion the need to feed will also dissuade other races from working with you towards a common goal if you have a vampire walking among you.
 
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Wint3rRyd3r

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Until you actually meet and talk to them like with Keros, I think it's a safe assumption that the others might not take your soul and more just claim ownership while letting you otherwise keep it. But I'd gladly sell my soul for fluffy tales and/or vampirism. Souls are overrated and I'm not using mine anyway
 
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Ireyon

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I mean the only two reasons not to do it would be a) you don't trust Keros or b) you want to become immortal somehow. Keros mentions that he and the other seven don't allow people they make contracts with to try and become immortal to escape their debt or something, don't quite remember.
 

WolframL

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I can think of a few more reasons. Like, you're holding out for some other divine TF, or you've got your Champion set up just how you like them and don't want to change them, or it doesn't fit how you're mentally roleplaying them, or...

As for the immortality thing, I suspect that was less a hint that it's something you'll be able to potentially do in the series and more an example of how the Seven are genre savvy enough about how people try to renege on deals that they demand the payment up front. Keros of course would be especially wise to those tricks, since that kind of thing is literally his divine portfolio. The Observer has mentioned that mechanically this is to prevent you from trying to offer your soul to multiple gods, while in-universe it's just a common practice in Savarra to not take an IOU.
 

SomeNobody

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I mean the only two reasons not to do it would be a) you don't trust Keros or b) you want to become immortal somehow. Keros mentions that he and the other seven don't allow people they make contracts with to try and become immortal to escape their debt or something, don't quite remember.
There's alot more reasons than "two" not to cheerfully trade your soul away to so-called 'gods'...

To be frank the fact that anyone would attempt to make a fancy bargain to get hold of your soul should be reason enough to keep a tight grip on it yourself.
 

Alypia

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There's alot more reasons than "two" not to cheerfully trade your soul away to so-called 'gods'...

To be frank the fact that anyone would attempt to make a fancy bargain to get hold of your soul should be reason enough to keep a tight grip on it yourself.
It's just the normal operation of the free market.

Of course, there might be more than a little, ah, informational inequality; it's a free market, but nobody said that it's a perfectly competitive one.
 

Ireyon

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May 14, 2018
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There's alot more reasons than "two" not to cheerfully trade your soul away to so-called 'gods'...

To be frank the fact that anyone would attempt to make a fancy bargain to get hold of your soul should be reason enough to keep a tight grip on it yourself.

Given that souls in this universe don't hold your counsciousness or personality in the same way IRL humans believe I'm honestly not sure. It would help if we ever learned what souls actually do in the CoC2 universe outside of being decorative paperweight for demons.

We already know that losing it is the end result of terminal corruption but that seems more... I don't know incidental? Does having a soul make you harder to corrupt?
 

Starstruck

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If anything bargaining the Champ's soul to one of the Seven is supposed to make them incorruptible

Or close enought to it.
 

Wint3rRyd3r

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What is so special about the player's soul anyway that gods want a piece and Kasyrra is so fixated? I get why Keros probably really wants it, but why would the rest of Seven and Kas be concerned. Is it mentioned anywhere and I just missed it?
 
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sumgai

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What is so special about the player's soul anyway that gods want a piece and Kasyrra is so fixated? I get why Keros probably really wants it, but why would the rest of Seven and Kas be concerned. Is it mentioned anywhere and I just missed it?

It's literally, magically delicious.

The champ was bathed in magic from the portal detonation. Kassyrra has mentioned the quality of the Champ's soul several times and seems to be tracking it's progress as the story continues.
 

Starstruck

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magically delicious.

While this is true, I don't think that's necessarily the motivation. Kasyrra herself seems to think that simply consuming a Lethicite is a gross mismanagement of its potential, as evidenced by her own words and the fact that she carries several of them studded into her jewelry for the rainy days when she needs some.

The Seven similarly covet the Champion's Soul for it's unique properties, Keros wants to add it to the Hoshi-no-Mitama while Nareva's been said to wanna archive it in her Well of Memory
but their days of actually consuming souls appear to be behind them.
 
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Wint3rRyd3r

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While this is true, I don't think that's necessarily the motivation. Kasyrra herself seems to think that simply consuming a Lethicite is a gross mismanagement of its potential, as evidenced by her own words and the fact that she carries several of them studded into her jewelry for the rainy days when she needs some.

The Seven similarly covet the Champion's Soul for it's unique properties, Keros wants to add it to the Hoshi-no-Mitama while Nareva's been said to wanna archive it in her Well of Memory
but their days of actually consuming souls appear to be behind them.

Then unless we can eat our own sweet sweet soul, losing out on that power by selling it off to the local god of generalized scumbaggery and floof will probably cost some potential power down the line. Same with Kasyrra and the Seven. Guess I'll have to give up on my dreams of fluffy tails.
 

Wint3rRyd3r

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I mean it's a standing offer anyway. Just hold off until the other transformation contracts are implemented and any relevant endings are known.

As long as I can still min max like a gremlin and feel powerful maybe. Until I can learn at what cost I truly pay for those tails I'll resist. Joking aside It'll probably be awhile before we see content specifically for that stuff given that, regardless of what's given to the player and how it's handled, that's gonna be a probably significant amount of writing and coding. On the upside, Outside of transformations and flavor text, it probably won't be too much of an impact to turn people off of considering it. Plus I doubt it makes the champ incorruptible. But it would deny Kas or anyone else that supercharged soul for story and bad ends.
 

Starstruck

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The emperor protects, or Lumia in this case. If we got turned into some super Valkyrie I would be on that like a fat kid on a box of smarties. Plus she actually did us a big solid so there is that, big kudo points to her.

There's just the small matter of your afterlife to consider... if the Valkyries in the royal tomb is any indication, even death does not release a valkyrie from service.
 

Gothic Purple Goblin

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There's just the small matter of your afterlife to consider... if the Valkyries in the royal tomb is any indication, even death does not release a valkyrie from service.
I highly doubt that is the norm. Those people had "issues", although it has been awhile since I have done that so I do not remember the details but they seemed more like people who could not let it go so to speak.
 

WolframL

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Yeah, those are all special cases and the fact that they can be sent on makes it clear that valkyries don't have some kind of 'locked out of the afterlife' clause as part of the bargain, whatever afterlife the setting may have.
The emperor protects, or Lumia in this case. If we got turned into some super Valkyrie I would be on that like a fat kid on a box of smarties.
Savin has confirmed that at some point we will be able to bind ourselves to Lumia and become valkyries. Also, Nareva and gothmanders are on the future menu as well.