one handed caster main weapons?

[Kingu2]

by no buffs does that mean no song of courage or veteran perk attack power boost aswell?

also what difficulty? dark, normal, easy or story

normal should be fine and yes no external attack power buffs just the raw weapon damage. That means no equipment like champions belt either.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

so no champion's belt, gloves of giant's strength, song of courage, charged weapon (as that adds holy damage to the attacks), Equanimity to avoid crits, guildring, lucky strike ring and i believe the hornet ring (dont use this anyways cuase of its curse), veteran/armorer perks

so best bet would be the black mage or white mage class to avoid attack power increasing perks...... any other things you would like to impose?

 

[Bobonga]

then averaged out the lowest seen number and highest seen number from each test

Doesn't that skew the results in favor of the Captains Greatsword and Swift Sword? The Griefmaker is so devastating due to its AP of 50. Depending on your setup an if you used the gloves of giant strength (+15 AP). With that most of the early game enemies should barely have any armor left and the CG and SS would do nearly full dmg. Late game enemies have a lot more armor, so the Griefmaker should vastly outperform the other weapons.

If we take now into account the time of aquiring each weapon, then the early game areas shouldn't matter. The CG is in the Winter City and the SS in the Kitsune Den. So you will be level 5 or 6 when aquiring those. At this point the Old Forest, Harvest Valley, Foothills and Frost wood shouldn't pose a challenge anymore.

The areas that pose a challenge now are the Undermountain and Glacial Rift. The Griefmaker should outperform the other two weapons in these areas. Except against the: Jotuns with frost immunity, Selkies with 60% frost resist and (maybe) the chimera with 25 frost resist.

What I want to say is: The enemies that actually matter have high armor stats. The CG and SS suck against armor. The Griefmaker excells against armor. By taking the average of EVERY enemie, low AP weapons seem stronger, since alot of weaker enemies have low armor stats. But those enemies shouldn't pose a threat, at the point of aquiring all mentioned weapons.

Also, this is a genuine question, not a "gotcha, you're wrong" moment.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

Doesn't that skew the results in favor of the Captains Greatsword and Swift Sword? The Griefmaker maker is so devastating due to its AP of 50. Depending on your setup an if you used the gloves of giant strength (+15 AP). With that most of the early game enemies should barely have any armor left and the CG and SS would do nearly full dmg. Late game enemies have a lot more armor, so the Griefmaker should vastly outperform the other weapons.

If we take now into account the time of aquiring each weapon, then the early game areas shouldn't matter. The CG is in the Winter City and the SS in the Kitsune Den. So you will be level 5 or 6 when aquiring those. At this point the Old Forest, Harvest Valley, Foothills and Frost wood shouldn't pose a challenge anymore.

The areas that pose a challenge now are the Undermountain and Glacial Rift. The Griefmaker should outperform the other two weapons in these areas. Except against the: Jotuns with frost immunity, Selkies with 60% frost resist and (maybe) the chimera with 25 frost resist.

What I want to say is: The enemies that actually matter have high armor stats. The CG and SS suck against armor. The Griefmaker excells against armor. By taking the average of EVERY enemie, low AP weapons seem stronger, since alot of weaker enemies have low armor stats. But those enemies shouldn't pose a threat to, at the point of aquiring all mentioned weapons.

Also, this is a genuine question, not a "gotcha, you're wrong" moment.

i was testing over all usefulness, the grief maker's frost damage is useless is the rift since most enemies if not all are strong to frost damage (which seems to be the current end game area aswell), while gaining a slight advantage in the undermountain due to some enemies having frost weakness (one of the reasons ryn is so powerful in there)

also as you said the guantlets of giant's strength boost armor penetration by 15 and you get an additional 17-19 from strength (for a strength build. no idea how to get it to 20 on PC)you are looking at a straight 32 to 34 alone which could skew the results aswell, there are a lot of factors to consider and take into account for each weapon but there are equipment option to simulate the armor penetration of the griefmaker if one actually cared to come up with a armor penetration build

 

[Kingu2]

any other things you would like to impose?

nope.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

would you like to see just swift blade, captain's greatsword, and griefmaker or would you like me to also through in the best damage over all duel sharp sickle to show a strong comparison (nothing can compete with raw damage)?

 

[CitrusWolf]

Janeen and the Liaden threesome rely on how feminine you are. Having a dick doesn't lock you out of them. Also, the magic (Ghostlight) dick was added specifically to allow access to dick-locked content (Kiyoko, primarily, because she's an entire companion locked behind getting her pregnant) without having to grow a real dick.

its still a dick and I refuse to have it, and that shows there is only one vag locked scene then, even more of my point

 

[Kingu2]

would you like to see just swift blade, captain's greatsword, and griefmaker or would you like me to also through in the best damage over all duel sharp sickle to show a strong comparison (nothing can compete with raw damage)?

sure why not.

 

[CitrusWolf]

I do hope not too many things get nerfed.
While I understand the desire to make every item viable it should not come at the cost of entirely removing a sense of progression.
Otherwise there is hardly any reason to seek out rare and unique equipment.

uhh, its been stated multiple times, they want one to be able to beat the game with starting equipment, looking for uniques was never for game progression but for flavor irc

 

[Bobonga]

since most enemies if not all are strong to frost damage

Only the ones I listed are strong against frost. All siorcanna, all Cultists, the Avanai and the Rock have 0 frost resist Edit: In the rift. Should have cut the quote better.

also as you said the guantlets of giant's strength boost armor penetration by 15 and you get an additional 17-19 from strength (for a strength build. no idea how to get it to 20 on PC)you are looking at a straight 32 to 34 alone which could skew the results aswell,

That is exacly my point. Early game enemies have low armor, which means that low AP weapons will do (almost) full dmg, since your AP before weapons stats will negate most of the armour. Late game enemies have high armor. Then low AP weapons do lower dmg. The CG has no AP and the SS 10 AP. The Griefmaker 50.

When you average the damage across all enemies, the low AP weapons will seem strong in theory. Since there is a mix of low armor targets and high armor targets.
But against the actual dangerous enemies, low AP weapons perform badly, since they can't go through the high armor.

For the overall usefullness: It should really only account for the difficult areas after aquiring the weapon. I mean, you don't rush the Winter City for the CG, so you can use it for the Centaur Village. At that point you will be level 5-6 for a Level 2-3 area.

To give some perspective: The lowest armor enemie in the Undermountain are normal Imps with 3 Armor. The Imp Lord, Warlock have an Armor of 40/42, the Shanker 62. The batfolk have 53, the kobolds 71, hobgoblins 76, Minos 92, elemental 92.

With proper setup you should have 34 AP before weapon stats. Both the CG and SS still have to go through alot of armor. The Griefmaker has to go through only 8 armor on the tankiest targets in the area. The others take full dmg.

The Undermountain and Rift will be the only challenging areas after aquiring all 3 weapons. All three will shred through the early areas. Areas that don't pose any challenge at this point. By taking the average of all enemies, you take into acount the enemies and areas that don't matter anymore (for a Lvl. 6 properly build champ). On paper the CG and SS seem strong, because they perform well in early areas with low armor. In the actual important areas, they suck.

So, the overall usefullness of the CG and SS is terrible. In the areas that matter, they are bad. The areas they perform well in, are obsolete. In those areas any weapon, besides the rusted knife will do the job, since your are overleveld or completed the area already.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

Only the ones I listed are strong against frost. All siorcanna, all Cultists, the Avanai and the Rock have 0 frost resist Edit: In the rift. Should have cut the quote better.

That is exacly my point. Early game enemies have low armor, which means that low AP weapons will do (almost) full dmg, since your AP before weapons stats will negate most of the armour. Late game enemies have high armor. Then low AP weapons do lower dmg. The CG has no AP and the SS 10 AP. The Griefmaker 50.

When you average the damage across all enemies, the low AP weapons will seem strong in theory. Since there is a mix of low armor targets and high armor targets.
But against the actual dangerous enemies, low AP weapons perform badly, since they can't go through the high armor.

For the overall usefullness: It should really only account for the difficult areas after aquiring the weapon. I mean, you don't rush the Winter City for the CG, so you can use it for the Centaur Village. At that point you will be level 5-6 for a Level 2-3 area.

To give some perspective: The lowest armor enemie in the Undermountain are normal Imps with 3 Armor. The Imp Lord, Warlock have an Armor of 40/42, the Shanker 62. The batfolk have 53, the kobolds 71, hobgoblins 76, Minos 92, elemental 92.

With proper setup you should have 34 AP before weapon stats. Both the CG and SS still have to go through alot of armor. The Griefmaker has to go through only 8 armor on the tankiest targets in the area. The others take full dmg.

The Undermountain and Rift will be the only challenging areas after aquiring all 3 weapons. All three will shred through the early areas. Areas that don't pose any challenge at this point. By taking the average of all enemies, you take into acount the enemies and areas that don't matter anymore (for a Lvl. 6 properly build champ). On paper the CG and SS seem strong, because they perform well in early areas with low armor. In the actual important areas, they suck.

So, the overall usefullness of the CG and SS is terrible. In the areas that matter, they are bad. The areas they perform well in, are obsolete. In those areas any weapon, besides the rusted knife will do the job, since your are overleveld or completed the area already.

the overall usefulness was taking into account all aspects of the weapons aswell, i play on dark mode so i already deal 25% less damage and take 25% more and the numbers i got had griefmaker barely dealing less damage then the CG while barely dealing more then the swift blade but the swift blade's critical effect is why the swift blade was even on my radar (on crit heal) which is super good in dark mode over all, all three weapons are comparible late game since the only enemy who has enough armor late game to require the extra AP from the grief maker is minos and the elemental, specially since you can get around to never having to fight the kobolds (if you have lyric) and the hobgoblins (just be a nice person)

becuase you can get 15 from guantlets of giant's strengh, 17 to 19 in strength from a strength build, 15 from armorer, and sunder armor powers (the thief skill shell cracker comes to mind with not only sunder armor but +50 AP and the mighty thunder strike), so yes that 50 ap is big, but there are ways around not having that 50ap and still dealing near full damage, right now its biggest selling point is it deals comparible damage to the CG making it great for frost weak enemies and its focus buff almost puts it above the spiraled blade (but the spiraled blade buffs spell power making it a great two hander if you need/want to throw some spells in the mix) which was never actually brought into the conversation,

so if the swords only selling point to being better is its 50AP and the highest armor in the game is only 91 which can be beaten with out that ap then is it really that strong of a weapon?

 

[Bobonga]

so if the swords only selling point to being better is its 50AP and the highest armor in the game is only 91 which can be beaten with out that ap then is it really that strong of a weapon?

Yes, it is and it is wastly better than the CG and SS. The CG needs powers, to beat the BASELINE Griefmaker. I judge the weapons on their own. The same build, the same equipment, the same enemy, no powers. The Griefmaker is objectively better than the CG.

So, yes. It is that strong of a weapon. There are only two physical weapon, that can outdamage the Grifemaker under the right cirumstances. The mastbreaker vs enemies with crushing weakness and the spiraled blade on days where the elemental dmg aligns with the enemies weakness. Even does two need very dpecific circumstance, to MAYBE outdamage the Griefmaker.

Let me return the Question: Is the CG, which is by design, one of the worst weapons in the game and occupies at least one power slot a better weapon, than a weapon that outperforms it baseline? What is the better weapon? The one that needs extra ressources and setup in combat to be qual to another weapon or a weapon that you simply need to equip?

i'm just going off the demonstrated damage numbers in battle,

Here you state that your point of reference is only the dmg. No other conditions. So, even with the setup, the CG outdamages the Griefmaker by about 5 points? The Griefmaker is still better as it does not need any setup or extra powers.

the overall usefulness was taking into account all aspects of the weapons aswell

Then should have specified that. Before, the only aspect of the discussion was Dmg.

becuase you can get 15 from guantlets of giant's strengh, 17 to 19 in strength from a strength build, 15 from armorer, and sunder armor powers (the thief skill shell cracker comes to mind with not only sunder armor but +50 AP and the mighty thunder strike),

That works with the griefmaker as well and you don't need thunderstrike or shell cracker or any other sunder ability

so yes that 50 ap is big, but there are ways around not having that 50ap and still dealing near full damage,

Why should I take "ways around" to deal near full dmg, when I can just equip the Griefmaker and deal full dmg. This isn't usefull or effiecient in any way. Why take extra steps with extra ressources for a worse outcome?

specially since you can get around to never having to fight the kobolds (if you have lyric) and the hobgoblins (just be a nice person)

You can avoid the minos as well. In fact, you can avoid all enemies, you can run from. Or any enemy, that is not required for the main story. Not having to fight an enemy, is no argument for weapon performance.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

Here you state that your point of reference is only the dmg. No other conditions. So, even with the setup, the CG outdamages the Griefmaker by about 5 points? The Griefmaker is still better as it does not need any setup or extra powers.

the set up used was pure attack power over anything else, and yea it was only a mere 5 point differance in damage at max and a 10 point at minimum

That works with the griefmaker as well and you don't need thunderstrike or shell cracker or any other sunder ability

except shell cracker and thunderstrike negate the enemies armor making your allies stronger in dealing damage in the long run because your AP score does not effect allies

Why should I take "ways around" to deal near full dmg, when I can just equip the Griefmaker and deal full dmg. This isn't usefull or effiecient in any way. Why take extra steps with extra ressources for a worse outcome?

not even with grief maker are you dealing full damage you are dealing near full damage (tested by using save edit to set AP base to 200), with out sunder armor no weapon is dealing 100% full damage end game agienst the big armor enemies

Yes, it is and it is wastly better than the CG and SS. The CG needs powers, to beat the BASELINE Griefmaker. I judge the weapons on their own. The same build, the same equipment, the same enemy, no powers. The Griefmaker is objectively better than the CG.

So, yes. It is that strong of a weapon. There are only two physical weapon, that can outdamage the Grifemaker under the right cirumstances. The mastbreaker vs enemies with crushing weakness and the spiraled blade on days where the elemental dmg aligns with the enemies weakness. Even does two need very dpecific circumstance, to MAYBE outdamage the Griefmaker.

Let me return the Question: Is the CG, which is by design, one of the worst weapons in the game and occupies at least one power slot a better weapon, than a weapon that outperforms it baseline? What is the better weapon? The one that needs extra ressources and setup in combat to be qual to another weapon or a weapon that you simply need to equip?

baseline with out ap, griefmaker and CG both have a damage of 50, and CG does not need powers to surpass the griefmaker in damage, when AP is not taken into account, all the damage amounts listed were with basic attack command stats and not powers, i listed the powers asways to either buff attack power or reduce enemy armor as normal game play strategies for dark mode specially if you take the romance path with kasyrra

 

[WolframL]

Something that's only been lightly touched on as another reason the Griefmaker is a superior weapon to the Captain's Greatsword has to do with that split damage in another way: There are enemies that can completely no-sell Penetrating damage, which is the only type CG is able to inflict. If you run into them, the greatsword is just a dumb hunk of metal and unless you have some Powers that do other damage types, the Champ isn't contributing much to that fight. This includes for example the Earth Elemental, which also has very high Armor. It'll laugh off the Captain's Greatsword due to 75 Penetrating Resist and 92 Armor, but it has a -25 Frost Resist so the Griefmaker will actually hurt the thing instead of just tickling it. See also: Magma Golem which has very high Armor and a 25 Penetrating Resist but a -100 Frost Resist. The CG is going to dull itself against that Armor while the Griefmaker is busy tearing it to bits. Grey Jelly? Totally no-sells Penetrating damage and also has -100 Frost Resist. The entire Specter of the Wyld quest? Enemies no-sell Penetrating but Frost damage will still hurt them. Need I go on?

except shell cracker and thunderstrike negate the enemies armor making your allies stronger in dealing damage in the long run because your AP score does not effect allies

And you could get the exact same effect and do better if you combined those Powers with the Griefmaker, or you could just use the Griefmaker, have more Power slots to play with and still do more damage.

Basically, your argument is this: 'Hey, I can beat you up if I use both arms but what I'll do instead is tie my good arm behind my back, train up and get really good with my bad arm and then beat you up with just the one.' As opposed to, y'know, saving all that time and effort and just fighting with both arms in the first place.

not even with grief maker are you dealing full damage you are dealing near full damage (tested by using save edit to set AP base to 200), with out sunder armor no weapon is dealing 100% full damage end game agienst the big armor enemies

Bruh...

 

[Bobonga]

except shell cracker and thunderstrike negate the enemies armor making your allies stronger in dealing damage in the long run because your AP score does not effect allies

We are discussing weapon performance. Not builds or partys. This is no valid argument.

not even with grief maker are you dealing full damage you are dealing near full damage (tested by using save edit to set AP base to 200), with out sunder armor no weapon is dealing 100% full damage end game agienst the big armor enemies

That was bad wording on my part. The CG needs extra ressources, to do what the dmg the Griefmaker can do on it's own.

Edit: That should not happen. What enemie did you hit and how high was your attack power? And what was your dmg?

baseline with out ap, griefmaker and CG both have a damage of 50, and CG does not need powers to surpass the griefmaker in damage, when AP is not taken into account

Yet, the AP is EXACTLY what makes the Griefmaker so strong and the CG bad. The AP is the mayor difference in performance. You have to take the AP into account when discussing dmg. You can't just ignore it.

You can't just ignore stats like AP or make extra conditions like sundering is better for the party or with a proper build the CG is as good as the Griefmaker.

So, please. When you make your next argument: Take a look at the weapons. Then how they would perform with base attacks vs. late game opponents. Do not take builds, partys, powers etc. into account. If build, powers, party , enemy etc. are same for the weapons, then their performance is the only variable. This is about the weapons themself.

I stand by my point: The Griefmaker is objectively better than the CG. The CG might crit more often, but the Griefmaker hits more often and does more dmg overall.

 

[Kingu2]

This is the point of the test. I recognize @Kyubi Xiaolong you are much like myself in that you won't believe something until you can see it for yourself. I set the limitations the way I did so you can see for yourself which weapon is better overall on their own. So I implore you to simply perform the test to specifications and show us the results.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

The wooden pipes are not the wooden rod. It's new, released in the combat rebalance part 1

Cool, I'll be looking forward to seeing its stats. I doubt it could be as strong as the Control Rod but it doesn't need to, it just needs to come close.

i did 20 attacks of each on EVERY avalible enemy in the game at the time

Hmm...

I'll start by saying that I greatly appreciate people who are willing to test things. That's how you figure things out. I spent quite a bit of time testing things out myself at some point and I didn't put in anywhere near as much diligence as you.

In this particular case, though, I'm not sure it's the right testing method. Galon's Griefmaker and Captain's Greatsword aren't early game weapons (the Greatsword is actually pretty late-game at this stage), you're not supposed to have them when early to midgame enemies are relevant to you. If you hit all early to midgame enemies, which have low Armor, you're kind of going out of your way to lessen the effects of the Griefmaker's massive ArmorPen and lessen the drawback of the Captain's Greatsword having none. It would seriously skew the results.

And indeed, it's difficult to find a build that's "weapon-neutral" and won't favor one weapon over another... though there's something to be said for weapons that enable a super powerful build over ones that are just good all the time.

Still, I would consider Galon's Griefmaker the superior weapon by a very significant margin. The Captain's Greatsword has a good crit bonus, otherwise it just doesn't... do anything? I feel like even a Mastbreaker would be better due to the superior damage type (enemies often have Penetrating resist and Crushing weakness) and having 20 more ArmorPen instead of the less reliable Crit.

But the game has changed quite a bit recently and I'll have to dig back in to confirm if my sense of how things are is still decent.

 

[Balaknightfang]

I doubt it could be as strong as the Control Rod but it doesn't need to

Oh, nothing is. That's why control rod is going to be nerfed to smithereens. It's literally better than most staves. It's an affront to any attempt at balance and it deserves everything I do to it when I bring it back in line.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

Oh, nothing is. That's why control rod is going to be nerfed to smithereens. It's literally better than most staves. It's an affront to any attempt at balance and it deserves everything I do to it when I bring it back in line.

Awesome. That's gonna disappoint a few people but it's undoubtedly the right decision, that thing is absurd.

 

[EvilK]

uhh, its been stated multiple times, they want one to be able to beat the game with starting equipment, looking for uniques was never for game progression but for flavor irc

Balancing the game so that one can finish it with starting equipment is fine. But players should be rewarded beyond flavour for going out of their way to find rare equipment. I'm not saying they need to be heads and shoulders above the starting equipment, but steady improvements should be noted as the game progresses.

 

[CitrusWolf]

Balancing the game so that one can finish it with starting equipment is fine. But players should be rewarded beyond flavour for going out of their way to find rare equipment. I'm not saying they need to be heads and shoulders above the starting equipment, but steady improvements should be noted as the game progresses.

then don't go out of your way to find it? like that is just your choice if you want to go look for it or just keep murdering everything with you short sword

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

This is the point of the test. I recognize @Kyubi Xiaolong you are much like myself in that you won't believe something until you can see it for yourself. I set the limitations the way I did so you can see for yourself which weapon is better overall on their own. So I implore you to simply perform the test to specifications and show us the results.

working on it, having to change up my entire equipment set up to take into account the limitations and to also survive some of the endgame fights solo, at the same time.... currently deciding betweenf hirruds cape or the cloak of winter and royal armor vs lamaller armor vs kunoichi outfit, having a low toughness score does not help

@VSG you can get griefmaker at level 3 so......basically its an early game twohander since you can do the quest before starting the mid game stuff

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

@VSG you can get griefmaker at level 3 so......basically its an early game twohander since you can do the quest before starting the mid game stuff

But you cannot get the Captain's Greatsword anywhere near as early. You're giving it an absurd advantage by testing it against low-armor enemies which would never be relevant for a player using it. Likewise, using the Griefmaker on low-armor enemies that are irrelevant for someone who would have been high-level enough to obtain it (even if it's just level 3) makes it look bad because its massive ArmorPen advantage cannot shine there.

Which is better, a fork or a spoon? I don't know, but I do know that a soup-eating contest is not at all a fair way to pit these utensils against each other.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

But you cannot get the Captain's Greatsword anywhere near as early. You're giving it an absurd advantage by testing it against low-armor enemies which would never be relevant for a player using it. Likewise, using the Griefmaker on low-armor enemies that are irrelevant for someone who would have been high-level enough to obtain it (even if it's just level 3) makes it look bad because its massive ArmorPen advantage cannot shine there.

Which is better, a fork or a spoon? I don't know, but I do know that a soup-eating contest is not at all a fair way to pit these utensils against each other.

the same arguement can be said for only pitting them on enemies that favors the griefmaker's armor penetration aswell, since there are endgame enemies with low enough armor that strength and gloves of giant strength negate their armor alone with their armor penetration, so testing on all enemies is a better way to test them, specially since you are still marching through areas with early game enemies aswell and seeing what finishes those fights the fastest is also importent so you dont waste time on the crap mobs

also if you have put everything in to strength then you have 17-19 strength and use gloves of giants strength, unless the enemy has an armor of 70 or higher (like 5 enemies i can think of off top of head) armor is a moot point as at the most the damage reduction will be 15- 17% (armor divided by 2) and considering the highest numbers i seen damage wise that like 8-14 points

 

[Luftwaffles]

the same arguement can be said for only pitting them on enemies that favors the griefmaker's armor penetration aswell, since there are endgame enemies with low enough armor that strength and gloves of giant strength negate their armor alone with their armor penetration, so testing on all enemies is a better way to test them, specially since you are still marching through areas with early game enemies aswell and seeing what finishes those fights the fastest is also importent so you dont waste time on the crap mobs

also if you have put everything in to strength then you have 17-19 strength and use gloves of giants strength, unless the enemy has an armor of 70 or higher (like 5 enemies i can think of off top of head) armor is a moot point as at the most the damage reduction will be 15- 17% (armor divided by 2) and considering the highest numbers i seen damage wise that like 8-14 points

The only endgame(so, Glacial Rift and Undermountain) enemies with armor of less than 35 (20 STR + 15 from the gloves) are the imps (3 armor), the Roc from the Avanai Rider encounter (17 armor), and Sleipnir from Liulfr(also 17 armor). There are a number of enemies with armor that's greater than 35 but less than 85, ranging from the 40's (Cultist Psion, Cultist Temptress, Selkies) and 50's (Batfolk Muggers, Glacial Rift Jotuns, Cultist Barghest), up to the 70's (Glacial Rift Siorcanna, Undermountain Kobolds, Undermountain Hobgoblins, Avanai Rider). After that, everything else (Liulfr, Earth Elemental, Mino Miners, Wraith Centaur, Cultist Centaur) is way up in the 100's, with the Mino Miners having the least at 92. Of these, the only ones with armor that can be overmatched by the Captain's Greatsword are clearly throwaway mobs - all the main threats tend to have at least decent armor.

I don't know why you guys are arguing over this, you can calculate the expected damage of each weapon pretty easily - so let's do it.

Against an enemy with (for now) 0 armor, 0 resistances, and 0 evasion, we will pit our Champion with 15 Accuracy (to counteract base miss chance), 0 attack power, 0 armor penetration, and 0 crit. We'll swing 100 times each, and assume the weapon will always do its base damage (there is some damage RNG ingame).

The Captain's Greatsword is expected to hit 95 times. We don't have enough Accuracy to get Accuracy crits, so of our 95 hits 19 of them will be upgraded to crits. Crits add 50 Attack Power, which in our case will always be +25 Penetrating Damage. Therefore, our expected average damage is (19*75 + 76*50)/100 = 52.25.

Galon's Griefmaker will hit all 100 times. It also doesn't have enough Accuracy to get Accuracy crits, so of the 100 hits 10 of them will crit. Our expected average damage is therefore (10*75 + 90*50)/100 = 52.5

As you can see, the Griefmaker is expected to do more damage even without factoring in armor penetration. So why did Kyubi see more damage? That's because a while back, crits were bugged to do 50% more damage after all calculations. If that's still true, that means crits (which were supposed to only add 50 attack power) actually added a lot more, essentially 50 + 50% of your Champion's Attack Power as bonus attack power. Since low level enemies also have low evasion, he/she was conveniently sidestepping the Greatsword's main weaknesses: low armor penetration and worse accuracy. Now you might say wait - the difference in damage is mostly due to those 5 misses, so just having 5 more accuracy should even things out, right? Actually no. If we give the Champion exactly 5 more accuracy the Greatsword pulls ahead, yes, but more than that and the Griefmaker starts catching up, because it will get more Accuracy-based crits than the Greatsword. If you have more than 20 accuracy, 1 accuracy = 0.84 crit, more or less.

You also need to account for how Armor damage reduction works, which has a lot of finer points to it. 1 armor is 1% damage reduction, but with diminishing returns: 50 armor is about 33% damage reduction, and 100 armor is about 50% damage reduction. Against the Wraith Chimera, your base 35 armor pen is probably only getting you about 15-17 extra damage, but versus a Cultist Psion (41 Armor), that same 35 armor pen is probably getting you around 24-28 extra damage. The Griefmaker would only do about 5 extra damage vs the Psion, but should swing for around 27 more against the Chimera. That's only 143% more armor penetration, but about 180% more damage. In essence, each point of armor penetration is worth more than the last, so having low armor penetration is significantly worse than it seems. The highest solo damage build possible (Dual Wield Petal/Kunai), for example, rocks two Rings of Fortune for this reason.

 

[VerySexyGrammar]

That's pretty in-depth, and I think the point is very valid. 50 ArmorPen is just super, super good against enemies that are relevant.

I will say in Kyubi's defense that, according to what was said before, the tests did not include crit damage, so that's not why the tests ended up favoring the Captain's Greatsword.

But I still very much think that testing these weapons against weak enemies will greatly skew the numbers, negatively for the Griefmaker and positively for the Greatsword. It's just not right. It should be relevant enemies only, and early game enemies will absolutely not be relevant by the time you get the Greatsword.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

The only endgame(so, Glacial Rift and Undermountain) enemies with armor of less than 35 (20 STR + 15 from the gloves) are the imps (3 armor), the Roc from the Avanai Rider encounter (17 armor), and Sleipnir from Liulfr(also 17 armor). There are a number of enemies with armor that's greater than 35 but less than 85, ranging from the 40's (Cultist Psion, Cultist Temptress, Selkies) and 50's (Batfolk Muggers, Glacial Rift Jotuns, Cultist Barghest), up to the 70's (Glacial Rift Siorcanna, Undermountain Kobolds, Undermountain Hobgoblins, Avanai Rider). After that, everything else (Liulfr, Earth Elemental, Mino Miners, Wraith Centaur, Cultist Centaur) is way up in the 100's, with the Mino Miners having the least at 92. Of these, the only ones with armor that can be overmatched by the Captain's Greatsword are clearly throwaway mobs - all the main threats tend to have at least decent armor.

I don't know why you guys are arguing over this, you can calculate the expected damage of each weapon pretty easily - so let's do it.

Against an enemy with (for now) 0 armor, 0 resistances, and 0 evasion, we will pit our Champion with 15 Accuracy (to counteract base miss chance), 0 attack power, 0 armor penetration, and 0 crit. We'll swing 100 times each, and assume the weapon will always do its base damage (there is some damage RNG ingame).

The Captain's Greatsword is expected to hit 95 times. We don't have enough Accuracy to get Accuracy crits, so of our 95 hits 19 of them will be upgraded to crits. Crits add 50 Attack Power, which in our case will always be +25 Penetrating Damage. Therefore, our expected average damage is (19*75 + 76*50)/100 = 52.25.

Galon's Griefmaker will hit all 100 times. It also doesn't have enough Accuracy to get Accuracy crits, so of the 100 hits 10 of them will crit. Our expected average damage is therefore (10*75 + 90*50)/100 = 52.5

As you can see, the Griefmaker is expected to do more damage even without factoring in armor penetration. So why did Kyubi see more damage? That's because a while back, crits were bugged to do 50% more damage after all calculations. If that's still true, that means crits (which were supposed to only add 50 attack power) actually added a lot more, essentially 50 + 50% of your Champion's Attack Power as bonus attack power. Since low level enemies also have low evasion, he/she was conveniently sidestepping the Greatsword's main weaknesses: low armor penetration and worse accuracy. Now you might say wait - the difference in damage is mostly due to those 5 misses, so just having 5 more accuracy should even things out, right? Actually no. If we give the Champion exactly 5 more accuracy the Greatsword pulls ahead, yes, but more than that and the Griefmaker starts catching up, because it will get more Accuracy-based crits than the Greatsword. If you have more than 20 accuracy, 1 accuracy = 0.84 crit, more or less.

You also need to account for how Armor damage reduction works, which has a lot of finer points to it. 1 armor is 1% damage reduction, but with diminishing returns: 50 armor is about 33% damage reduction, and 100 armor is about 50% damage reduction. Against the Wraith Chimera, your base 35 armor pen is probably only getting you about 15-17 extra damage, but versus a Cultist Psion (41 Armor), that same 35 armor pen is probably getting you around 24-28 extra damage. The Griefmaker would only do about 5 extra damage vs the Psion, but should swing for around 27 more against the Chimera. That's only 143% more armor penetration, but about 180% more damage. In essence, each point of armor penetration is worth more than the last, so having low armor penetration is significantly worse than it seems. The highest solo damage build possible (Dual Wield Petal/Kunai), for example, rocks two Rings of Fortune for this reason.

crits get cunning% added as well its not a straight 50/50% since game even states higher cunning higher crit damage

and the damage averages was ignoring crits (becuase done with a high cunning build)

also i believe the highest damage solo build if ignoring cursed effect of items is twin balanced blades or sharpened sickles and has the guildring (5 higher crit chance then lucky strike) and hornet ring (15 bonus crit chance for a mild curse) and champions belts, royal gloves (gloves of giants strength negates the 25 attack power from veteran)....

balanced blades deal 15% more damage on crits while also increasing ap by 18 total,

sharpened sickles has raw damage which ignores damage reductions and can be duel wielded

both way out damage kunai and petal

 

[Luftwaffles]

crits get cunning% added as well its not a straight 50/50% since game even states higher cunning higher crit damage

and the damage averages was ignoring crits (becuase done with a high cunning build)

also i believe the highest damage solo build if ignoring cursed effect of items is twin balanced blades or sharpened sickles and has the guildring (5 higher crit chance then lucky strike) and hornet ring (15 bonus crit chance for a mild curse) and champions belts, royal gloves (gloves of giants strength negates the 25 attack power from veteran)....

balanced blades deal 15% more damage on crits while also increasing ap by 18 total,

sharpened sickles has raw damage which ignores damage reductions and can be duel wielded

both way out damage kunai and petal

Nah fam, Blessing + Song of Storms is simply unbeatable. Kunai is there because the bleed doesn't care about the weapon's reduced base stats, plus it helps proc Twist the Knife. In the screenshot below, which was taken on Dark difficulty in the part of Winter Wolf where you fight infinite enemies, you can see what I mean. That's a basic attack with +184 Storm damage, +42 Holy Damage, and +100 attack power from Blessing. If she wasn't dead, that Temptress would also be bleeding for 44 per turn. Also, fun fact: Veteran only cares about what armor you have in your torso slot. You can wear Heavy hats/gloves/shoes just fine. Another fun fact: after killing 100+ enemies, the cultists ran out of letters to spawn with and started using symbols instead.

Loadout for the build below is Petal/Kunai, Charge Weapon(insanely OP), Sure Shot, Song of Storms, Deadly Shadow, Unbreakable. Sure Shot guarantees the Petal effect for Song of Storms on turn 2, but if I were to rely on allies for Blessing (which I don't because the only ones who have it have terrible initiative), I'd probably use the Griefmaker instead. Stats are Strength, Agility, Willpower, and you wear anything that gives Spellpower, which is more important than Attack Power by far for this build. You're right that the Guldring is good, but obviously you can't have it at that point in the game.

Anyway, the main point of my post was that yes, about 90% of all late game enemies have more armor than you can get base armor penetration, and about 2/3rds will have significantly more (70+) such that the 50 AP of the Griefmaker makes a big difference.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

Nah fam, Blessing + Song of Storms is simply unbeatable. Kunai is there because the bleed doesn't care about the weapon's reduced base stats, plus it helps proc Twist the Knife. In the screenshot below, which was taken on Dark difficulty in the part of Winter Wolf where you fight infinite enemies, you can see what I mean. That's a basic attack with +184 Storm damage, +42 Holy Damage, and +100 attack power from Blessing. If she wasn't dead, that Temptress would also be bleeding for 44 per turn. Also, fun fact: Veteran only cares about what armor you have in your torso slot. You can wear Heavy hats/gloves/shoes just fine. Another fun fact: after killing 100+ enemies, the cultists ran out of letters to spawn with and started using symbols instead.

Loadout for the build below is Petal/Kunai, Charge Weapon(insanely OP), Sure Shot, Song of Storms, Deadly Shadow, Unbreakable. Sure Shot guarantees the Petal effect for Song of Storms on turn 2, but if I were to rely on allies for Blessing (which I don't because the only ones who have it have terrible initiative), I'd probably use the Griefmaker instead. Stats are Strength, Agility, Willpower, and you wear anything that gives Spellpower, which is more important than Attack Power by far for this build. You're right that the Guldring is good, but obviously you can't have it at that point in the game.

Anyway, the main point of my post was that yes, about 90% of all late game enemies have more armor than you can get base armor penetration, and about 2/3rds will have significantly more (70+) such that the 50 AP of the Griefmaker makes a big difference.

i actually knew bout the cultist thing, did not know i was suppose to flee.....

also you can pull off the same build using the balanced blades and sharpened sickles,, specially if you have agni in third slot since she always targets you with her insane stance effect which stacks with charged weapon (i usually use song of courage though but charged weapon is nice if going for pure solo damage)

 

[Shrike675]

I can do beeg numbers 2 guyse