one handed caster main weapons?

[VerySexyGrammar]

That's simply false. Leadership is derived from Presence and Presence can easily make you stronger. Leadership as a stat on items can increase your DPR more substantively than other offensive stats depending on configuration, making that position also situationally untrue even for Leadership directly.

You'll notice I said personally stronger. +1% Sexiness per Presence isn't going to compare to what any other stat can give you.

They won't because it's trivial to keep them alive if you're healing them. I already described that. I even mentioned the difficulty in finding opportunities to rez them because, if properly configured and maintained, they won't die. Again -- this is already a thing that you can do in CoC2, as I said.
What you're declaring is like saying "you can't possibly play a Thief in CoC2 because you'll be defeated before your damage defeats anyone else." Well, no -- Thief builds can beat opponents before the Thief runs out of hit points if built well. Everyone who's played a Thief will just be perplexed that you're denying that lived experience. Same thing here.
With respect, you just said it was, despite the fact that it's already doable.
As I already said in the previous post, tanking is a matter of taking the hits.
I think the issue here is that you're acting as if survivability is a non-issue so long as there's a single tank, and therefore, having gotten one character to tank, all emphasis goes to damage output, and then effectively saying that that's the One True Way to build a party. It is, however, not, and if there are multiple characters that can tank damage and the team's damage outuput is high enough to crush threats, the combat minigame's only real problem left is PC survivability. By the current max level of CoC2, that's the only issue such builds have left.

Tanking is a matter of taking the hits for your party. That is the modern-day definition of the gaming term, "tanking". Like I said, I don't like it (and I hated D&D 4th Edition for not only adopting it but openly making these roles a part of the game), but it is what it is.

I know making an extremely defense-oriented team and very slowly whittling enemies down is a viable strategy. At least until you eventually meet something that outdamages your suboptimal defense (all characters are tough, but none are super tough) or, more likely, outheals your very low offense. There, boss design is a big part of what's viable and what isn't. It's indeed not optimal, which is why people prefer to specialize (if you go all in on damage reduction and threat on one character, you can go all in on healing/offense with the others), but as long as the game isn't too hard, attrition-based combat is possible.

It just doesn't involve a single tank.

I find Focus to be, if not useless, really ill-favored in later levels as I've usually built up enough defenses to render tease/temptation damage meaningless. Before the combat revamp, it could be countered with Bolstering at lower levels, and then it was way better to deal with that with Items, and, ime, the items just stopped getting used. Evasion is still more useful than Focus, as is Ward. The point of comparison with the Lamellar is the Resistances; again, if Leathers didn't have those out-of-nowhere offensive stats, they'd actually square up with the Lamellar.


Sexiness. I did point out that I generally wasn't using the stat, but that's the case for many builds.

The idea of a tank using lust to generate threat is... intriguing. The changes that made Resolve damage HP damage are too recent for me to confidently claim whether that would be viable, but I could see a character using the Leathers, Aphrodisiac Whip and Rosebloom Shield to tank. It'd be weird and I still think the Conquerer's would be much better for a tanking role (you wouldn't need any Sexiness to generate threat), but I think it would work.

I think they're a bit overtuned compared to some other attire. I think the solution there, though, is not nerfs, but to take a look at the more lackluster pieces of clothing and give them some numbers that can let them work with more builds, as well as very slight buffs. I'm actually in favor of the kind of thinking that went into the Leathers going into more armor.

Yes, while it would be easier to just nerf three good armor pieces than buff a whole bunch of bad ones, it's not just about balance, armor has to feel like it matters and that doesn't happen if the stats on it are too low. A chest piece that has 6 Armor and 3 Sexiness is much better than one that has 4 Armor and 2 Sexiness, but the reality is neither really matters much.

 

[Radriel]

I think the bonus stats on most gear is pretty negligible past the opening of the game in comparison to each other. Gear is only somewhat impactful in aggregate in terms of bonus stats like Attack Power and Spell Power. The base stats of weapons and armor values of armor is a much more major thing. But for pure wizard types, the amount of practical Spell Casting stats between the worst options and the best options isn't really a game changer. As long as you arent wearing the worst options in every item slot, your performance isn't particularly terrible in comparison.

If you compare Spiraled Staff to Control Rod + Noble's Harp(for example. You may favor a different secondary, but I liked harp+Metal Rod before I got the staff), the difference is 5 Spell Power, 5 Spell Pen, 5 accuracy, 10 crit, 10 Sexiness. Is this better? Yes. Is it even the best or close to it? Maybe. Is this a huge difference? Well, no...

My total Spell Power with class buff is currently 105 and I have 22 Spell Pen(Havent gone to Kor Minos yet even). Having 110 Spell Power and 5 more Spell Pen isn't gonna make a huge difference to my damage ceiling at all. The Crit is the only real appreciable buff here to improve my average damage, and I can still live without it very comfortably.

By the time you can get the control rod, you're almost certainly beyond the level where one or two gear slots matters much to you in terms of having BIS. Also, you need to give up a necklace that boosts Spell Pen by 8 and Spell Power by 5. If you dont wanna bother upgrading the Amulet, it's still Spell Pen 8 at least. There is no other neck piece that boosts these stats that I have seen.

Now, if this scenario repeats for every gear slot where there is a clear frontrunner, then this difference can compound to a level where it becomes an issue, but that isnt the case I think.

I do think that Caster weapons for pure casters needs a huge rebalance, but mostly because what caster's value is Spell Power and Spell Pen above all else(unless you're a Charmer maybe). Almost every spell scales off Spell Power and you need a LOT of spell power to do well as a pure caster. With Warriors and such, you can rely on base damage of weapon to actually mean something, For Spellcasters, unless you are a hybrid build, this doesnt really mean anything to you usually. Pure Spellcasters rely on the spell itself for base damage/healing. If you play your cards right, then you end most fights in 3 rounds by playing around elemental weaknesses or spell combos. Currently the difference between the worst wand in the game and the best is like 10 Spell Power and a bunch of Spell Pen. Not small, but not huge either. Ask what the difference between the Worst melee Weapon and the best melee Weapon is and it is Massive in comparison.

So basically spellcaster weapons dont really matter much right now. I'd like to see a rebalance of that entore situation before fiddling over a negligible difference inside of one or two gear slots. To add a potential solution instead of just complaining, I will say that having other rider effects added to spells based on equipped weapon would be pretty cool. Either that or maybe include base weapon damage as part of spell damage calculation somehow as another point of balance? I personally would have wands that blast energy be balanced differently than staves, with Wands being treated as actual weapons with some slight stat bumps intended to be used with ranged weapon skills and Staves having the rider effects as they are for full serious casters. Maybe have some edge-case weapons like the spiral blade have rider effects intended for hybrid spellcasters.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

I think the bonus stats on most gear is pretty negligible past the opening of the game in comparison to each other. Gear is only somewhat impactful in aggregate in terms of bonus stats like Attack Power and Spell Power. The base stats of weapons and armor values of armor is a much more major thing. But for pure wizard types, the amount of practical Spell Casting stats between the worst options and the best options isn't really a game changer. As long as you arent wearing the worst options in every item slot, your performance isn't particularly terrible in comparison.

If you compare Spiraled Staff to Control Rod + Noble's Harp(for example. You may favor a different secondary, but I liked harp+Metal Rod before I got the staff), the difference is 5 Spell Power, 5 Spell Pen, 5 accuracy, 10 crit, 10 Sexiness. Is this better? Yes. Is it even the best or close to it? Maybe. Is this a huge difference? Well, no...

My total Spell Power with class buff is currently 105 and I have 22 Spell Pen(Havent gone to Kor Minos yet even). Having 110 Spell Power and 5 more Spell Pen isn't gonna make a huge difference to my damage ceiling at all. The Crit is the only real appreciable buff here to improve my average damage, and I can still live without it very comfortably.

By the time you can get the control rod, you're almost certainly beyond the level where one or two gear slots matters much to you in terms of having BIS. Also, you need to give up a necklace that boosts Spell Pen by 8 and Spell Power by 5. If you dont wanna bother upgrading the Amulet, it's still Spell Pen 8 at least. There is no other neck piece that boosts these stats that I have seen.

Now, if this scenario repeats for every gear slot where there is a clear frontrunner, then this difference can compound to a level where it becomes an issue, but that isnt the case I think.

I do think that Caster weapons for pure casters needs a huge rebalance, but mostly because what caster's value is Spell Power and Spell Pen above all else(unless you're a Charmer maybe). Almost every spell scales off Spell Power and you need a LOT of spell power to do well as a pure caster. With Warriors and such, you can rely on base damage of weapon to actually mean something, For Spellcasters, unless you are a hybrid build, this doesnt really mean anything to you usually. Pure Spellcasters rely on the spell itself for base damage/healing. If you play your cards right, then you end most fights in 3 rounds by playing around elemental weaknesses or spell combos. Currently the difference between the worst wand in the game and the best is like 10 Spell Power and a bunch of Spell Pen. Not small, but not huge either. Ask what the difference between the Worst melee Weapon and the best melee Weapon is and it is Massive in comparison.

So basically spellcaster weapons dont really matter much right now. I'd like to see a rebalance of that entore situation before fiddling over a negligible difference inside of one or two gear slots. To add a potential solution instead of just complaining, I will say that having other rider effects added to spells based on equipped weapon would be pretty cool. Either that or maybe include base weapon damage as part of spell damage calculation somehow as another point of balance? I personally would have wands that blast energy be balanced differently than staves, with Wands being treated as actual weapons with some slight stat bumps intended to be used with ranged weapon skills and Staves having the rider effects as they are for full serious casters. Maybe have some edge-case weapons like the spiral blade have rider effects intended for hybrid spellcasters.

well if you want to be practical you could have the control rod plus blank scroll (10 spell power, spell pen and accuracy) or fox jewel (10 sexiness, temptation, spell power and spell pen) or the ox totem (15 spell power, 10 spell pen and 10 accuracy) or the lynx totem (10 accuracy/spell pen and 10 spell power/evasion) (or the fire jade if your playing party healer....) and you would optimize your spell power and damage over all, yes the spiral rod is a decent but it just cant compare optimally to the control rod and the many off hand weapons that dont get weakened being in the offhand since at the minimum they are equal in spell power and all other stats are higher so yea.... also that spell pen differance matters for late game and endgame enemies.... i seen a lot of high end ward stats

 

[Radriel]

And? What is the actual difference between Control Rod+(Your choice of Second item) vs the easily obtainable Spiraled Staff? What is the total amount of stats on your character and what difference in damage output do you see? Is it enough to shave off even a turn from the encounters you mentioned? Did you account for the fact that an optimized non-control rod character has an amulet that gives +5 Spell Power & +8 Spell Pen unavailable to the control rod using character?

My point is that while you are correct about what is "optimal" in terms of higher overall numbers. The actual comparison in damage is very negligible in the practical sense.

This is because of how damage for spells is calculated vs damage for weapons and weapon skills including high Attack Power bonuses as well. Warrior and Rogue also get pretty easy access to +25 and +50 Attack Power buffs respectively from level 1 class passives. This means that weapon damage is a huge variable for them in addition to their bonus stats, but a meaningless one for us and we have to rely purely on our own stats for Spell Power(our spells dont include extra Spell Power in their calculations). Thus a difference of 10 spell power is pretty measly in the large scheme of things. Spell Pen is probably more valuable at higher levels, but again, needs to be in sufficient quantities. Its only once we start seeing a huge amount of stat disparity that results in killing something 1 turn faster than you would otherwise have that it matters at all.

 

[Kyubi Xiaolong]

And? What is the actual difference between Control Rod+(Your choice of Second item) vs the easily obtainable Spiraled Staff? What is the total amount of stats on your character and what difference in damage output do you see? Is it enough to shave off even a turn from the encounters you mentioned? Did you account for the fact that an optimized non-control rod character has an amulet that gives +5 Spell Power & +8 Spell Pen unavailable to the control rod using character?

My point is that while you are correct about what is "optimal" in terms of higher overall numbers. The actual comparison in damage is very negligible in the practical sense.

This is because of how damage for spells is calculated vs damage for weapons and weapon skills including high Attack Power bonuses as well. Warrior and Rogue also get pretty easy access to +25 and +50 Attack Power buffs respectively from level 1 class passives. This means that weapon damage is a huge variable for them in addition to their bonus stats, but a meaningless one for us and we have to rely purely on our own stats for Spell Power(our spells dont include extra Spell Power in their calculations). Thus a difference of 10 spell power is pretty measly in the large scheme of things. Spell Pen is probably more valuable at higher levels, but again, needs to be in sufficient quantities. Its only once we start seeing a huge amount of stat disparity that results in killing something 1 turn faster than you would otherwise have that it matters at all.

actually shaved two turns of fights on dark mode

teh differance in spell power of control rod + extra vs spirel staff and the charm is equal or +5 in favor of the control rod, spell pen differance is +3 to +8 in favor of the control rod, the differance in accuracy is +10 in favor of control rod, the differance in crit is +10 in favor of control rod.... and for healers the fire jade can be combined with the control rod for its +20% healing effect, this is not taking into account the guildring (+5 spell power +5 spell pen +10 leadership, +bonus damage for all spells) and other spell power boosting gear..... losing a single neck piece to match or surpass in all regards seems heavily worth it to m

 

[Radriel]

Control Rod + Blank Scroll = combined stats of 25 Spell Power, 25 Spell Pen, 25 Accuracy, +15 Crit, -10evasion(worth mentioning, but isnt a big deal)
Spiral Staff + Amulet of Union = combined stats of 25 Spell Power, 23 Spell Pen, 10 Accuracy, 5 Crit, 7 Ward(Worth mentioning, but isn't a big deal)

Actual Difference in favor of Control Rod + Blank Scroll = 2 Spell Pen, 15 Accuracy, 10 Crit
This is definitely not nothing... But it isn't a crazy difference. The max damage of both setups is virtually identical. The only difference is in consistency of hitting/critting, but mostly thats just critting in my personal experience. Past level 1 or 2, I dont think I remember missing a single spell due to drinking alcohol to max Agility(except when I'm trying to learn spells via Mirror Stance).
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Control Rod + Bull Totem = combined stats of 30 Spell Power, 25 Spell Pen, 25 Accuracy, 15 Crit, -10 evasion
Spiral Staff + Amulet of Union = combined stats of 25 Spell Power, 23 Spell Pen, 10 Accuracy, 5 Crit, 7 Ward

Actual Difference in favor of Control Rod + Bull Totem = 5 Spell Power, 2 Spell Pen, 15 Accuracy, 10 Crit
This one is slightly better than the first combo, but again, not a huge departure. +5 Spell power is 5% more of the base spell damage, but not actually even 5% more total damage. It is a difference, just not a big one. The biggest advantage here really is just crits, but i find that at Max Agility and near Max Cunning I crit most of the time anyway.
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Control Rod + Lynx Totem = combined stats of 20 Spell Power, 25 Spell Pen, 25 Accuracy, 15 Crit, -5 Evasion(worth mentioning, but not a huge deal)
Spiral Staff + Amulet of Union = combined stats of 25 Spell Power, 23 Spell Pen, 10 Accuracy, 5 Crit, 7 Ward

Actual Difference in favor of Control Rod + Lynx Totem = -5 Spell Power, 2 Spell Pen, 15 Accuracy, 10 Crit
This is again, almost the same damage, though worse than the previous 2 combos.
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Control Rod + Fox Jewel = combined stats of 25 Spell Power, 25 Spell Pen, 15 Accuracy +15 Crit, 10 Sexiness, 10 Tempt, -10 evasion
Spiral Staff + Amulet of Union = combined stats of 25 Spell Power, 23 Spell Pen, 10 Accuracy, 5 Crit, 7 Ward

Actual Difference in favor of Control Rod + Fox Jewel = 2 Spell Pen, 5 Accuracy, 10 Crit, 10 Sexiness, 10 Tempt
On pure Magic DPS build, this is objectively worse than most previous options, but there is something to be said for keeping a decent tease attack in your back pocket or wanting to slot in a Tease spell. Most Black Mage builds that use Summons want Presence anyway. A difference of 10 in both relevant stats makes this a good option for that kind of character. That said, Soul Arrow exists as well as other spells that do Psychic damage analogous to tease. So its interesting, but not really more optimal in this way.
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Control Rod + Fire Jade = combined stats of 20 Spell Power, 15 Spell Pen, 15 Accuracy, 20 Crit, -10 evasion, +20% Heal Power, 10 Penet/15 Crush resist
Spiral Staff + Amulet of Union = combined stats of 25 Spell Power, 23 Spell Pen, 10 Accuracy, 5 Crit, 7 Ward

Actual Difference in favor of Control Rod + Fire Jade = -5 Spell Power, -8 Spell Pen, 15 Crit, 20% Heal Power
I wrote this because you keep adding it in despite this not being relevant to damage builds like I referred to. The Fire Jade is basically the best healer buff item in the game. This isnt a contest at all. Its just that good. The control rod is helping, but frankly only marginally. You could use a 10 Spell power Metal Rod Option and use the Amulet as well and it would break even in terms of healing. In terms of damage, its probably worse overall obviously.

I wont mention the Guldring because there is no reason any of these builds should be caught dead without it. But yes, its a great item.

I'm not really sure how you got 2 rounds of difference tbh(was this consistent?). I also play Dark Mode, and I only notice a difference in how long a fight takes if my entire party somehow doesnt get any crits, which basically never happens. And my own personal ratio of crits is more than decent with Max Agility buff. I definitely get at least 1 crit per fight. I have so mush damage that I intentionally use suboptimal spells to not end most fights in round 1, or intentionally use non-optimal party members.