My constructive criticism

[freezerburn68]

So I've been really thinking for a moment, and I kinda decided that I want to get something off my chest. Mainly to the devs, writers, and content of CoC2. I also wanna discuss constructive criticism about CoC2. Imma be blunt. I also wanna say that the way

Point #1

Please focus on the story.

I've been playing this game since 2021, and haven't even seen an update for 'In her footsteps' in over 4-5 years, and i would think we'd be in the middle point right? Nope. Just stuck with pointless dlc that most of the time hit. I wanna ask if the writers can split work, but I kinda have a feeling they don't wanna do that. We only have act one of the main story, and I started playing since 2021. Let that sink.

Honestly in all respect Savin, I would like to play the main story, and not do side quests.

Point #2

More PC agency

We don't have a lot of player agency, and this is further backed up with The observer's writing, which many people complain about the kitsune walking all over players, and the players themselves being too submissive when they wanna be dominant. In the discord, I think I remember Savin (or someone) saying they were gonna make a system in the next game that'll change that, but I have my doubts. Mainly because CoC and TiTs remain unfinished. We really don't get to call out the kitsune, let alone the Seven. I feel like calling out the Seven for taking souls and doing little to nothing about Kassyra and her demonic invasion is honestly infuriating.

The one think I liked was punching the drunk kitsune onto his ass. Felt therapeutic, and like my own decision. Honestly, if we can get more of THAT in the quest/main story, I would love it. But I feel like I'm playing lewd deltarune most of the time because my choices apparently don't matter much.

To also clarify, I dont wanna fight the Seven, but call them out for consuming souls, and having a strained route.

Point #3

Unfuckable NPCs

I understand completely that some npc shouldn't be fuckable, but goddammit i want to fuck/dominate Gweyr, Garth be damned. A quest where you intentionally fail by corrupting an NPC would be nice. They're could be so much content that you guys can do with a darker or neutral path. The main one i gotta complain about is Kavi. Like bro, I wanna mating press her, or let her ride me, not be coddled (even though i kinda like it a bit). I also feel like some people gatekeep that type of content from characters, but I believe it defeats the main thing of CoC2. Which is to corrupt or be a goody two shoes. I kinda think Savin and the rest of the cast lost the plot for a bit.

Point #4

Marefolk and the lack of "Chicks without horsedicks"

Honestly this got me a bit heated. Because now I gotta be frigging wary and save before going in for the secks with a hot horse chick. Nine times outta ten, they are a futa. I dislike futa content (And no, I'm not dropping the game because I dont like one fetish. That'd be like me dropping Splatoon 3 cuz salmon run is a bitch to play. While the rest of the game is peak), and although I understand most like it, it's the fact when you do enter into a sex selection with them, you cannot exit some of them. The only way to is exiting the game and restarting it. And honestly it wouldn't be a problem if I could see the fat fucking bulge in their pants by their bust. Sure some are obvious, but Edessari & Wredi are the most annoying part that made me say "That makes LITTLE to no sense. I didn't fuckin know!" Cause they had no visible bulge. Honestly, contrary to popular belief, I want a new horse girl without a dick dawg. Also the horse cock stuff needs to be tone down a wee bit. Maybe here and there on a occasion, but slow it down.

Point #5

Lack of actual corruption

Why corrupt NPCs when 90 percent characters and NPCs are bunch of degenerates in this game? I'll say that the developers team maybe doesn't care about making main plot relevant anymore.

Point #6

No/Lack thereof storyboard

I feel as if we did have a storyboard (or they work on the ones they made) for the game, a bunch of these issues would be hypothetically solved.

 

[Tarnakus]

My constructive criticism of your constructive criticism.
Point #1

Please focus on the story.

I could say the same to you

it is from this
Jokes aside, Siege of Khor'minos is part of the main quest and was updated on June 10. In Her Footsteps isn't the only "main" quest.

Point #2 – Beaten-to-death topic.
If I remember correctly (and please, someone correct me if I'm wrong), The Observer wasn’t originally an official writer. He more or less made a trade: his content (hommage to another game) in exchange for writing what Savin wanted - which is why his influence is strong in the Kitsune arc.
That said, yeah, more player agency is always nice.

Point #3 - Sure, everyone has their own list here.

Point #4 - No strong opinion from me on this one.

Point #5 – Another dead horse.
Between the evolution of the internet, Patreon banning certain content, and what the writers are now comfortable with, the whole corruption mechanic basically fell apart. At this point, there's not much to be done about it.

Point #6 – Did you mean something like a roadmap?
From what I’ve heard, the team does have one - it’s just not public.

 

[freezerburn68]

My constructive criticism of your constructive criticism.
Point #1

I could say the same to you
View attachment 39720
it is from this
Jokes aside, Siege of Khor'minos is part of the main quest and was updated on June 10. In Her Footsteps isn't the only "main" quest.

Point #2 – Beaten-to-death topic.
If I remember correctly (and please, someone correct me if I'm wrong), The Observer wasn’t originally an official writer. He more or less made a trade: his content (hommage to another game) in exchange for writing what Savin wanted - which is why his influence is strong in the Kitsune arc.
That said, yeah, more player agency is always nice.

Point #3 - Sure, everyone has their own list here.

Point #4 - No strong opinion from me on this one.

Point #5 – Another dead horse.
Between the evolution of the internet, Patreon banning certain content, and what the writers are now comfortable with, the whole corruption mechanic basically fell apart. At this point, there's not much to be done about it.

Point #6 – Did you mean something like a roadmap?
From what I’ve heard, the team does have one - it’s just not public.

Eh fair points all round

 

[Origin]

My constructive criticism of your constructive criticism.
Point #1

I could say the same to you
View attachment 39720
it is from this
Jokes aside, Siege of Khor'minos is part of the main quest and was updated on June 10. In Her Footsteps isn't the only "main" quest.

Point #2 – Beaten-to-death topic.
If I remember correctly (and please, someone correct me if I'm wrong), The Observer wasn’t originally an official writer. He more or less made a trade: his content (hommage to another game) in exchange for writing what Savin wanted - which is why his influence is strong in the Kitsune arc.
That said, yeah, more player agency is always nice.

Point #3 - Sure, everyone has their own list here.

Point #4 - No strong opinion from me on this one.

Point #5 – Another dead horse.
Between the evolution of the internet, Patreon banning certain content, and what the writers are now comfortable with, the whole corruption mechanic basically fell apart. At this point, there's not much to be done about it.

Point #6 – Did you mean something like a roadmap?
From what I’ve heard, the team does have one - it’s just not public.

Could you go a little more into detail regarding your Point #5? Do you mean corruption is not going to be a thing in the game anymore?

I am just asking becasue I am one of those people who came to the game for the corruption aspect to it and stuck with it because, so far, even though it is not as fleshed out as I hoped when I first saw the game, I thought it was intended to keep featuring in future content.

Also, even though I am aware of the basic issue that the majority of players prefers pure playthroughs, which is why corrupt content took a back seat on devs priority list, I'm still not sure how exactly the devs thinkg about corruption (e.g. its role in the main plot, its tonality, its role in world buildig etc.).
I keep considering making a thread to ask about this, but every now and then I stumble upon casual remarks of the topic being a "dead horse" and, therefore, refrain from making a thread about something everybody but me seems to know about. So if you do know more, it would be great if you could share that knowledge.

 

[orropo]

from my understanding it wont be tbe full extent of it, like necro and incest and all the very much taboo things

 

[Origin]

from my understanding it wont be tbe full extent of it, like necro and incest and all the very much taboo things

Oh wait, that is what people consider to be corruption? That, especially necro, is far beyond of what I would have considered corruption.

 

[Fighter]

Could you go a little more into detail regarding your Point #5?

Patreon has a bunch of Don'ts that make it harder to write corruption content. You as the player cannot rape, mind control, or have incestious relations with another NPC. So when an NPC has a corrupt route, it is always done by another NPC like Zo getting raped by the centaurs or Ahmri by Tollus. As for necro, I think they were referring to Patreon having a big no to sex with corporeal undead, so no zombie, vampire, jiangshi sex for you!
The writers are another reason not to get your hopes up for corruption content, as the main writers don't like it. A prime example is the hive quest, where you get a companion and a bunch of content for doing the pure route but get almost nothing for doing the corrupt route.
The writers also love the npcs being promiscuous and open to fucking anything so if corruption meant being a ho to you then almost all the NPCs are that by default. Like with Livrea and her family, you can be in a romantic relationship with Livrea and have a child with her, but you can have a threesome with her mom and dad, and it'll be treated as completely normal in this setting.
I believe the only reason this game was called Corruption of Champions was because of the name recognition the first game had.
It's still a good game but you're going to starve if you're waiting for corruption content.

 

[Tarnakus]

Could you go a little more into detail regarding your Point #5? Do you mean corruption is not going to be a thing in the game anymore?

Sure. But I need to establish some context first, as it seems I'm a little older and more experienced on the internet

Typically, I assume people critique CoC2 in comparison to CoC1, and to be clear, there, corruption was about non-consensual sexual intercourse, forced transformation, and enslavement (NPC -> PC and PC -> NPC). Incest was actually somewhere in the middle; with Harpies, it was not corruption, but with others, it was tied to corruption. Necro was not present (to my memory, there was like one ghost if you count it). Importantly, corruption would gatekeep you. For example, if you had too much corruption, you couldn't enter Tel'Adre (the main city, but only for the first entry; if you become a demon later, no issues), but there was a corrupted Bazaar that you could enter only with some minimum corruption.

Back then, the whole internet was a lot wilder. Just to give an example, on big porn sites, you could easily find non-consensual roleplay or clips from movies titled "rape scene from X" (I mean cinema movies here). The same was true for Patreon; wild games were present there.

So now we start with CoC2. The idea initially was to be similar to CoC1, with one exception: corruption would not gatekeep anything, as it did in CoC1. The developer's choice seemed okay at the time. Reduce scope creep and less anyoing to players - also writers seemed less keen to write it. Then, the internet became more and more sanitized, with Patreon starting to ban a lot, up to and including incest.

So here we are: corruption gives you a small flavor text and access to one scene. Beyond that, you can decide whether you want to be an asshole without corruption or a saint with it. At this point, corruption is just a vestigial mechanic.

PS. I was writing this response as someone else more or less answered - above is not changed.

I believe the only reason this game was called Corruption of Champions was because of the name recognition the first game had.

This is not true - there were many plans that went off the rails. Today, being an armchair general is easy. Albeit, a lot of people don't even notice that the developers started this as amateurs and learned on the job (and made mistakes as with corruption), and the game is free, so don't take game so personally, and give the devs some slack.

 

[Fighter]

This is not true - there were many plans that went off the rails. Today, being an armchair general is easy. Albeit, a lot of people don't even notice that the developers started this as amateurs and learned on the job (and made mistakes as with corruption), and the game is free, so don't take game so personally, and give the devs some slack.

When the lead writer designs three companions and decides not to give any of them a corrupt route, I think it's fair to say that their plans were off the rails from go and that corruption was never their main focus and that the title was borrowed to give a new company a jumpstart on their Patreon funding. I also don't believe calling them ameatuers is fair when the lead writer has been around since CoC1 and has written main story content for TiTS before making this game. Same goes for the other main writers since they all had proven track records for their writing and were given permission to write for the main quests and do companions. The only writer I'd consider a fresh face is Jstar and they've been solid on actually giving corrupt players some food.

Like I said, the game is still good and I'm still a fan, but if you're looking for a game focused on corruption, then the title is blatant false advertising and you should look elsewhere.

 

[valk42]

bro BOTH ryn and arona were planned to have demon routes but it became unfeasible due to code reasons

 

[Origin]

First of all, thanks to both Tarnakus and Fighter, your explanations are very helpful.

However, I am still not sure what the conclusion is for me personally. You guys mentioned some more extreme stuff like e.g. the PC raping NPCs was infeasible, but that's fine with me I am not into any of that.
What I thought to be corruption was just the PC becoming either more demonic or more "whorish", depending on wether you aspire to dominate or to be more of a slave, and becoming progressively more driven by a sexual need that is not a self-detrmined/sovereign promiscuity nor romantic but a primal need, that leads the PC to reduce all of her personality, abilities and appearance to serving that need, debasing him-/herself to something slavish/shameless in the process and taking others down that road with him/her.
Of course the sidelining of the corruption mechanic that is supposed to change how NPCs interact with you depending on your corruption level is a huge loss to that - as I understand you such that people reacting negatively to your corruption level or your corrupt deeds is of the table -, but I still find content and even some which is not that old (e.g. Drifa & the corrupted lupines) that plays to some of this .

So I am not sure, to what extent what you say is not gonna play much of a role in the game anymore is what I mean when I talk about corruption.

More specifically, what I am after is basically four things:
1.) More stuff like being kidnapped by the corrupted lupines, loosing to the imps or the centaurs etc.
2.) Instances of the PC losing certainty whether they want to fight against or should rather indulge advancing the corruption and them realizing their changing feelings, as e.g. when you birth Imps in the Frosthound.
3.) Instances where, based on where you are at in 2, you can actually corrupt other NPCs like with Drifa or pushing Liaden and Azzy into the corrupted pool.
4.) Kaysrra's Intention to corrupt you (although stopping short of making you a demon) and the potential delicacy that brings to the PC's relationship to her (the struggle not to succumb to her allure) continuing to feature in the main story.

Is any of that realistic to hope for going forward?

 

[Savin]

Is any of that realistic to hope for going forward?

Yeah all of that's still very much in the cards -- the Drifa thing was just added pretty recently after all.

 

[Origin]

Yeah all of that's still very much in the cards -- the Drifa thing was just added pretty recently after all.

That's great to hear!

Now that you already took the time to clarify things, just one last question @Savin :
Is any sort of a more systematic mechanic for NPCs to react to/disapprove of/being disappointed by you being corrupted, doing corrupt things or looking like a demon (via transformatives) in the cards or is this definetely off the table?

Oh and by the way, thank you for the great work!

 

[Savin]

Is any sort of a more systematic mechanic for NPCs to react to/disapprove of/being disappointed by you being corrupted, doing corrupt things or looking like a demon (via transformatives) in the cards or is this definetely off the table?

That is definitely out of the cards; we very much intentionally didn't want to add a universal Approval system like a BioWare game. Every reaction every companion has to every situation is bespoke and hand-written.

 

[Nino]

That is definitely out of the cards; we very much intentionally didn't want to add a universal Approval system like a BioWare game. Every reaction every companion has to every situation is bespoke and hand-written.

I can only shudder to think of the works required for even one companion to have who knows how many pages of writing and coding based on how much or how little they approve of your actions and state of being.
At the same time, I thought Cait's reaction to you being romantic with Kassyra in the Winter City dungeon was funny but also shrugged off like a Family Guy bit "What the shit <player>?! She's a literal demon!!"

 

[Origin]

That is definitely out of the cards; we very much intentionally didn't want to add a universal Approval system like a BioWare game. Every reaction every companion has to every situation is bespoke and hand-written.

Got it. Thank's for clarifiying.

 

[erectorz]

1. Such a fair point, I know they are now updating the main story and it seems like its all hands on deck to finish act two, but this game has been out for (I think) 5 years and we've been on act 1 for like almost all of that but seem to get side content churned out non stop. I like the side content enough but it feels like the main story line has been drip fed to us. But credit where credit is due they are making headway now.

2. God this is so accurate. I don't care that the kistunes constantly look down on you, that's perfectly fine. I DESPISE that i can't react to it. The fact that kiyoko and kinu hid the engagement and you couldn't even choose your reaction was mind boggling. Not to mention you are forced to hate nakano whereas I respect that he at least is honest with you. I could rant about this for hours but I will spare everyone that.

3. I don't mind unfuckable npcs but I do hate how if you don't fuck some npcs they basically have zero content. Kalysea is the absolute worst offender of this. Interesting idea to have an npc eat your uniques. But really all you get is to be her bitch? At least with kelt(coc1) there was a tangible reason why a non submissive player would interact with him. For Kelysea's entire character if you don't want to be dommed by a centaur she basically doesn't exist.

4. Again total agreement here. If you have an npc proposition you it should be made clear what your role is going to be.

5. I totally understand but we aren't going to get corruption like coc1. Thats just flat out not happening. I do like the moral choices but it does make it a bitch to write so I get it.

6. Would love a roadmap of some sort made public but I can live without it.

Still love the game. Probably top 3 adult games for me. But hey we all have gripes.

 

[Savin]

and we've been on act 1 for like almost all of that

Act 1 was finished with Palace of Ice and In Her Foosteps; Act 2 has been ongoing since Siege of Khor'minos started. We're about to finish Act 2 and start Act 3 (which is just one area and then the final dungeon, in terms of core content). :V

 

[erectorz]

Act 1 was finished with Palace of Ice and In Her Foosteps; Act 2 has been ongoing since Siege of Khor'minos started. We're about to finish Act 2 and start Act 3 (which is just one area and then the final dungeon, in terms of core content). :V

Yeah my bad i meant we had only finished act 1 and have been in act 2 for a while. Also did not know that act 3 was going to be so short. That makes more sense when you explain it now. Just felt like we were waiting to get to khorminos for a while then we were just stuck there for just as long without much progression.