Kas's Company and Allies suck at being Generals

[Melancholy Man]

Have you ever watched a wartime movie or documentary and realized how interconnected the forces are with each other even if the bond is shoestring thin? Communication and cooperation are usually key factors in victory or losses. So with that said I do think there are problems with the finer details regarding the mid-game quests (I'm assuming mid-game): Why isn't Alissa in communication with BloodKnight? BK was raided and had all the equipment she got from Alissa taken, is Alissa or Kas aware this happened? If so, why aren't there stronger forces on Dracia or BK herself (She seems like the vindictive type, plus I like domming her)? Why would you leave your source high-grade weaponry unguarded when you know a competent force is on the lookout? And if not, why wasn't Alissa informed?
Another thing is Tollus and Alissa's missions take place in the same time frame, why isn't there any interaction between the two, shouldn't she be supplying him with weaponry, and him with manpower if needed? This would be a nice scenario (not blatantly told to the player) where if you went to Dracia without stomping out Tollus you'd see some of his men mixed with the regular mob encounters and if you went to Grwyr missions the mobs there would be higher lvl than normal (because they have better weapons).

 

[PalletTown]

They are not one faction, they are different factions that barely tolerate eachother at best. Tollus increasingly views Kas as insane and needing to be put under control. Alissa is more preoccupied with her delusions than any actual military strategy. Kas views Tollus and Alissa merely as pawns. Kas goal is not to hold territory, but to corrupt the territory.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Tollus increasingly views Kas as insane and needing to be put under control.

Yes, but he keeps that to himself, remember we learn this through his personal journal. He comes across as a shrewd opportunist, so requesting weapons shouldn't be a problem.

Alissa is more preoccupied with her delusions than any actual military strategy

still not stopping a messenger from informing her of issues that could be coming her way.

Kas goal is not to hold territory, but to corrupt the territory.

Then why even approve of having the weapons in the first place, if you are going to give them up instantly? Why not focus on getting corrupt agents in the city rather than putting it under seige?

 

[Boshe]

Why not focus on getting corrupt agents in the city rather than putting it under seige?

cia didn't exist in the bronze age

 

[Melancholy Man]

cia didn't exist in the bronze age

tell that to china

 

[Alypia]

Dysfunctional alliances of convenience do exist, yes.

Imposing one's will on one's allies comes with a cost. If you're allied to them, it's more useful to not have to impose your will. Yes, you run into the issue that everybody's pulling in multiple not-necessarily-reinforcing directions, but is that worse than the alternative?

Alliance management is not easy; not being able to run an organization like it's 1980s NATO is not a failure. Sure, it's suboptimal, but most things are.

Also, name a more iconic duo than "demons" and "literally not being able to care about the interests of other people, including your boss".

 

[Greyfox643]

Yeah, there is utter disfunction, but I feel it is strongly on Tollus' side of things.

I liken him to the Grand Moffs of The Empire (of Old Republic Fame). You have a whole bunch of these red-lazer sword man babies who literally fuck off and murder random people because "Passion is the path To Swords" or whatever it is Sith ramble about. And they are your supposed leaders because of their alleged superiority to yourself and your fellows.

So it's your job to point the giant evil red adult-child-thing in the vague direction of your objective while you spend the rest of your time doing damage control, and attempting to appease these Overlords by "Suggesting" that their 'Amazing Plans' would be even MORE impressive if they just did X, Y, and Z along the way.

But, I feel, Tollus doesn't care for that level of "Power-Bottoming" Micromanagement

Also, name a more iconic duo than "demons" and "literally not being able to care about the interests of other people, including your boss".

Spoiler

Ryn and your OC's womb?

 

[Melancholy Man]

Dysfunctional alliances of convenience do exist, yes.

Imposing one's will on one's allies comes with a cost. If you're allied to them, it's more useful to not have to impose your will. Yes, you run into the issue that everybody's pulling in multiple not-necessarily-reinforcing directions, but is that worse than the alternative?

Alliance management is not easy; not being able to run an organization like it's 1980s NATO is not a failure. Sure, it's suboptimal, but most things are.

Also, name a more iconic duo than "demons" and "literally not being able to care about the interests of other people, including your boss".

You say that but they're fine just doing other regular favors but not a little common sense? Plus espionage is old as time, we've been doing sneaky shit as humans for a while now; Look at the trojan wars, the Edo period of Japan, the Three Kingdoms had a lot of information trade going on, the Vikings and their sociopolitical dynamics.
I'm not asking for chess masters. I'm asking for competence and for characters to act consistently with how they are portrayed. Remember they can't be a threat if they aren't competent as an opposing force.

 

[Animefan666]

You're expecting a disciplined, organized force from a demonic sex cult and a demon from a fuck dimension? Ultimately, chaos speaks for itself. That's the play. No need for a formal army when you can just corrupt everything around and lett'em loose. Kind of like a zombie infection.

 

[Tarnakus]

Then why even approve of having the weapons in the first place, if you are going to give them up instantly? Why not focus on getting corrupt agents in the city rather than putting it under seige?

Spoiler

Siege of Khor-minos is a ruse... Calise... Bathhouse...

Kas literally is doing only espionage style actions cuz she doesn't have a proper army. What you will call infiltrating a city and then using its nobility to imploded it from inside? Not espionage? It was PC that stopped her from getting full control over Winter City.

On one hand you read this game too much - on another you do not see the obvious.

the trojan wars, the Edo period of Japan, the Three Kingdoms had a lot of information trade going on, the Vikings and their sociopolitical dynamics

Only one apply here (if we stay in Bronze Age) - Trojan War - it most likely happened but taking writings of a guy (and probably not even his writings) that lived at least 500 years later as historically accurate is a little bit too much. Not mention what happened in between in Greece. I would say that history was not they main priority.

You do not take in account cannon passage of time - canonically game takes place in couple of months - it is quite reasonable to assume that survivors of PC attack on BloodKnight didn't have time to inform Alyssa before PC attack her or simply didn't care any more. Desertion is a thing especially if you think your boss will fucked you up after your failure (or change you in clone of her sister).

History argument in case of CoC2 is quite a weak one. CoC2 world is one of (if not the most) historically inaccurate fantasy world I ever read about. Like 90%+ things are way passed Bronze Age. Even bronze is not really bronze just recoloured iron (props to Balak for Vitruvius).

PS. In regards of historical inaccuracies in fiction - I always give literacy freedom to authors and they do not bother me. I understand that common knowledge about Bronze Age ends on - they used bronze (without knowing what that implies). But I will always cringe on Tobs "time to strike when the bronze's hot"

 

[Melancholy Man]

You're expecting a disciplined, organized force from a demonic sex cult and a demon from a fuck dimension? Ultimately, chaos speaks for itself. That's the play. No need for a formal army when you can just corrupt everything around and lett'em loose. Kind of like a zombie infection.

I would agree with you if that was how they were portrayed but that isn't the case.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Kas literally is doing only espionage style actions cuz she doesn't have a proper army. What you will call infiltrating a city and then using its nobility to imploded it from inside? Not espionage? It was PC that stopped her from getting full control over Winter City.

On one hand you read this game too much - on another you do not see the obvious.

I know poising the water supply and corrupting the ppl is the play (they make it fairly obvious the nobility and Khor'minos on a whole like freaky stuff and Kas frequently references that the more sexually liberal a place is the easier it is for her to corrupt), I'm not stupid. What I'm saying is if that is the plan from the start then the siege is ridiculous in the first place.

Only one apply here (if we stay in Bronze Age) - Trojan War - it most likely happened but taking writings of a guy (and probably not even his writings) that lived at least 500 years later as historically accurate is a little bit too much. Not mention what happened in between in Greece. I would say that history was not they main priority.

Let's not go there, they made it with a modicum of embellishment to should off their culture, history, beliefs and glory as a nation. These guys have a major influence that spans 700+ years. There is no downplaying them, brov.

You do not take in account cannon passage of time - canonically game takes place in couple of months - it is quite reasonable to assume that survivors of PC attack on BloodKnight didn't have time to inform Alyssa before PC attack her or simply didn't care any more. Desertion is a thing especially if you think your boss will fucked you up after your failure (or change you in clone of her sister).

I would believe you if they were portrayed with that type of behavior. From what we have seen of BK, does she look like the type to not care? She's literally RPing a stiff-lip commander with a rough sex fetish, she's going to snitch cause she's down for some vengeance.

 

[WolframL]

I'm not stupid. What I'm saying is if that is the plan from the start then the siege is ridiculous in the first place.

Only because you apparently lack imagination. The siege is concentrating the vast majority of the population of the entire nation into one place and keeping them penned up behind the walls, instead of having large numbers of people scattered around outlying villages. That puts the majority of the population in a position to be corrupted in one go while also tying down the most effective military in the region by putting them on the defensive and (as a bonus) keeping them from interfering in any of her plans beyond KM.

Since ancient Greece has been brought up, Kas is basically enforcing the situation in the second year of the Peloponessian War that saw the Athenian population ravaged by plague, except her plan is to make everybody turbo-horni instead of dead.

 

[Animefan666]

I would agree with you if that was how they were portrayed but that isn't the case.

How are they not portayed as such? It's quite literally their modus operandi.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Only because you apparently lack imagination. The siege is concentrating the vast majority of the population of the entire nation into one place and keeping them penned up behind the walls, instead of having large numbers of people scattered around outlying villages. That puts the majority of the population in a position to be corrupted in one go while also tying down the most effective military in the region by putting them on the defensive and (as a bonus) keeping them from interfering in any of her plans beyond KM.

Since ancient Greece has been brought up, Kas is basically enforcing the situation in the second year of the Peloponessian War that saw the Athenian population ravaged by plague, except her plan is to make everybody turbo-horni instead of dead.

This is how I know I'd leave you black and blue if we played chess or checkers or a war sim. She is an inferior force taking on a heavily fortified position, the nature of her army and numbers complement hit-and-run on trade routes and taking over surrounding villages, and states steadily suffocating them not driving them together so they bolster their numbers for a push. The only reason I can see Kas doing this is the slow way because she likes a spectacle which is something she's been portrayed as liking so I have no probs with that. It's her Allies I have a problem with.

Peloponessian War

context is necessary if you're going to reference that. A very long and drawn-out war with logistical problems on all sides with third and fourth parties intervening is not a good reference my guy.

I also noticed no one wants to acknowledge the photo, I know how this forum operates by now, yall don't miss a beat to mock someone when they're wrong but everyone acting like it doesn't exist. Mhmm

 

[WolframL]

context is necessary if you're going to reference that. A very long and drawn-out war with logistical problems on all sides with third and fourth parties intervening is not a good reference my guy.

I gave you the context by mentioning the second year and the plague in Athens. It's not my fault if you're hard of reading as well as hard of thinking.

 

[Melancholy Man]

How are they not portayed as such? It's quite literally their modus operandi.

Now I could tell that your wrong, but if you've played up to this point and think that, then I can't talk with you. But here's the thing, I don't think you're stupid, You're just moving the goalpost.

 

[Melancholy Man]

I gave you the context by mentioning the second year and the plague in Athens. It's not my fault if you're hard of reading as well as hard of thinking.

You on your period or something mate?

 

[Animefan666]

Now I could tell that your wrong, but if you've played up to this point and think that, then I can't talk with you. But here's the thing, I don't think you're stupid, You're just moving the goalpost.

Kas: Doesn't have a standing army.

Tollus: Anything resembling a formal army is made up of people that were already trained and then assimilated through corruption and brainwashing. Remember when he attacked Hawkethorn with a bunch of kids and they were promptly dispatched by one merc?

Every other major antagonist operates purely on self-interest. There's no honor among thieves (and villains)

The fact that you think I'm moving the goalpost is pure deflection.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Kas: Doesn't have a standing army.

True, which justifies my point on the Hit-and-Run tactics bit and bleeding the capital or just going the pure espionage route rather than what we're given in-game.

Tollus: Anything resembling a formal army is made up of people that were already trained and then assimilated through corruption and brainwashing. Remember when he attacked Hawkethorn with a bunch of kids and they were promptly dispatched by one merc?

That's using an example of his past, current Tollus is a lot more organized and is going after opportunities he can manage; Centaur Village because they are a good workforce, Lurling Arc with all the tech he's unearthed, and troops he's amassed. He has influence, a goal, and he's organized.

Every other major antagonist operates purely on self-interest. There's no honor among thieves (and villains)

but they'll give each other some help when it's plot convenient, eh? Go ahead...ignore the photo with blatant evidence of plot hole problems <_<

 

[waterpanther7]

True, which justifies my point on the Hit-and-Run tactics bit and bleeding the capital or just going the pure espionage route rather than what we're given in-game.

That's using an example of his past, current Tollus is a lot more organized and is going after opportunities he can manage; Centaur Village because they are a good workforce, Lurling Arc with all the tech he's unearthed, and troops he's amassed. He has influence, a goal, and he's organized.

but they'll give each other some help when it's plot convenient, eh? Go ahead...ignore the photo with blatant evidence of plot hole problems <_<

Kasyrra is a destabilizing element to his plans.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Kasyrra is a destabilizing element to his plans.

Yeh, that's why he thinks she's crazy and not the right person but is willing to use her name and influence to further his goals if that means he answers to her from time to time. Good character for his role.

 

[Boshe]

but they'll give each other some help when it's plot convenient, eh? Go ahead...ignore the photo with blatant evidence of plot hole problems <_<

Not sure what you're getting at here, but I'm guessing that a concept as old as literature itself flew past you. Specifically, the idea of shared interests being pitted against a composition of myriad other factors, from ethical and/or ideological differences to prior negative experiences, mutual or otherwise.

Here, a particularly noteworthy one due to how likely it is to be relevant within the context of sex-addicted demonic demi-goddesses and a skinny bald reprobate with tasteless face tats arises: the lack of personal attractiveness. Why wouldn't I, a woman on a mission of such personal import that is enough to make me go into sixth gear on turning every quantum of my being into an imp factory AND play the world's most involved dungeon master for a party of one, or I, someone on a by-proxy gooning crusade fueled by nothing but sheer disregard for Patreon's terms of service, wouldn't loathe the sheer presence of a man whose face keeps the pens in the sex offender registry clicking at night and desire nothing more than to minimize the damage from prolonged and regular olfactory assaults the stains on his robes launch at everyone unlucky enough to have ever existed in the general direction of him, let alone benefited materially from it?

 

[Kingu2]

That's using an example of his past, current Tollus is a lot more organized and is going after opportunities he can manage; Centaur Village because they are a good workforce, Lurling Arc with all the tech he's unearthed, and troops he's amassed. He has influence, a goal, and he's organized.

The centaurs only started working with him after Kasyrra corrupted them along with many others ostensibly under his command. Of all the people he's managed to amass only 3 are actually competent the rest of them are morons. like the idiots who were told to dump the lurelngs goop into water sources and not random spots out in the wasteland.

but they'll give each other some help when it's plot convenient, eh? Go ahead...ignore the photo with blatant evidence of plot hole problems <_<

It's no secret that they are working together, the real question is why are you assuming Alyssa doesn't know you're coming? She isn't really caught off guard when you show up and they clearly had defences preped just not great ones. And this would not be unexpected from a character who's lack of forsight led to her bankrupting her own country with lavish parties and hunting trips before she even tried to elope with a demon. She was never competent at any point and I don't see this as a plot hole.

 

[Animefan666]

True, which justifies my point on the Hit-and-Run tactics bit and bleeding the capital or just going the pure espionage route rather than what we're given in-game.

That's using an example of his past, current Tollus is a lot more organized and is going after opportunities he can manage; Centaur Village because they are a good workforce, Lurling Arc with all the tech he's unearthed, and troops he's amassed. He has influence, a goal, and he's organized.

but they'll give each other some help when it's plot convenient, eh? Go ahead...ignore the photo with blatant evidence of plot hole problems <_<

The biggest point you're missing in all of this is that your original premise (the villains are incompetent) is true, but everything else is a misrepresentation of their roles. Kas drops in, corrupts the locals and then dips. She's essentially Doomsday except replace the desire to end all life with the desire to fuck everything into submission. The incompetence is a direct result of Kas being a dominatrix, not a leader.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Not sure what you're getting at here, but I'm guessing that a concept as old as literature itself flew past you. Specifically, the idea of shared interests being pitted against a composition of myriad other factors, from ethical and/or ideological differences to prior negative experiences, mutual or otherwise.

Here, a particularly noteworthy one due to how likely it is to be relevant within the context of sex-addicted demonic demi-goddesses and a skinny bald reprobate with tasteless face tats arises: the lack of personal attractiveness. Why wouldn't I, a woman on a mission of such personal import that is enough to make me go into sixth gear on turning every quantum of my being into an imp factory AND play the world's most involved dungeon master for a party of one, or I, someone on a by-proxy gooning crusade fueled by nothing but sheer disregard for Patreon's terms of service, wouldn't loathe the sheer presence of a man whose face keeps the pens in the sex offender registry clicking at night and desire nothing more than to minimize the damage from prolonged and regular olfactory assaults the stains on his robes launch at everyone unlucky enough to have ever existed in the general direction of him, let alone benefited materially from it?

All of this to say why would They help him, simple he's relatively competent and he's got resources as seen in the photo. What I'm saying is why would he just give her aid freely, that's not how he's portrayed. There is a deal to be made there between the two made even worst that they aren't exactly friendly but are in positions where they need things from one another.

 

[Melancholy Man]

The centaurs only started working with him after Kasyrra corrupted them along with many others ostensibly under his command. Of all the people he's managed to amass only 3 are actually competent the rest of them are morons. like the idiots who were told to dump the lurelngs goop into water sources and not random spots out in the wasteland.

And? So what if he's using Kas's name to get shit done? That's been his mo since the start and What do you mean by only three? If he has bodies to throw on a situation then that's a resource for him to use. I don't get where you going with this point.

It's no secret that they are working together, the real question is why are you assuming Alyssa doesn't know you're coming? She isn't really caught off guard when you show up and they clearly had defences preped just not great ones. And this would not be unexpected from a character who's lack of forsight led to her bankrupting her own country with lavish parties and hunting trips before she even tried to elope with a demon. She was never competent at any point and I don't see this as a plot hole.

Did we read the same story? It's fairly obvious they didn't know we were storming them until we reached their shores. And let's follow your logic, let's say she did know; why not try to get more aid from her allies? She's lucid enough to ask for help with starting her fetish, thinking up tricky ways to smuggle weapons down to Khor'minos, and still charming that even tho Gytha saw how she was still willing to bend the knee.

 

[Melancholy Man]

but everything else is a misrepresentation of their roles.

What do you mean by this? Are the things I said about Tollus and company not true? Explain brov.

The incompetence is a direct result of Kas being a dominatrix, not a leader.

She literally spits her entire backstory at us that is not all that she is, the first part is true, she likes to watch the show.

 

[Boshe]

All of this to say why would They help him, simple he's relatively competent and he's got resources as seen in the photo. What I'm saying is why would he just give her aid freely, that's not how he's portrayed. There is a deal to be made there between the two made even worst that they aren't exactly friendly but are in positions where they need things from one another.

He's well aware of how she uses him, but he's still somewhere between believing he can change her and trying to make her serve him. There's like two articles on it in the codex.

 

[Dr. Bootytaste]

I disagree with the idea that kas doesn't have a standing army, she has imps. Imps are the most terrifying threat to Savarra bar the wraiths themselves. They are theoretically endless, self propagating, pose no risk of rebellion, might not even need to eat. Like the flood from halo, excepting that every body captured doesn't just make one soldier, but a breeder than can endlessly supply troops. Fuck 'em too much and you make another demon, which then will go off and make even more imps.
Holing up in the city was the wisest move the minos could make considering the threat. Every farm or fishing village left out in the open is a buffet of victims that will not add too, but multiply the enemy army.
The biggest problem with a siege is that it's just as taxing on the attacker as the defending host. Demons sidestep this problem completely as they don't require food and can endlessly resupply their army. No need for competent leadership, supply routes, siege engines, anything. They literally come out of the pussy battle ready. Just throw them at shit.
Kas's weakness is her arrogance, as is so often the case with big bad's. It's all a game to her, and she knows she's going to win by default. By attrition.
This is a woman who restored a warp gate and created a race of pseudo-draconic supersoldiers. She's not dumb or incompetent, she's just so far above everything she can't see it as a threat.