Is Evergreen evil?
- Thread starter Melakoth
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Just for context, my brain is turned off critically speaking when I have engaged with the details of the lore. This is not detailed analysis:
From that standpoint: Evergreen is a magical feminine entity (witch) that has her own domain in the forest, an untamed space that is not under regular "Normal and acceptable" forms of authority. The way she chooses to exercise her power is not merely passive. She is unapologetically lusty, actively siring only other magical feminine entities, a deliberate exclusion or rejection of traditional maleness. She has the ability and interest in using that power to corrupt the player character, turning them into a feminine subject under her power. She makes bargains with others in the world and will follow the letter of those bargains, but never discloses the full implications of the bargains made. Some of the bargains appear to be rather monkey paw in nature, to her benefit no matter what the consequences to the partner on the other side of the table.
A lot of these elements have a very long cultural history with negative connotations within "Western" storytelling. Wild, promiscuous, uncontrolled women at the edges of civilization engaging in bargains with powers both mundane and profane is a direct reference to witchcraft. With all of that cultural sauce baked into the media most of us have grown up with and consumed so passively we don't think about it, It's not at all surprising that Evergreen is labeled "Evil" by some players - since that's the association made to this bundle of elements together even if unconsciously.
Edit: Glad to know that intention of the authors too @WolframL
I have not pruned her content with a fine-toothed comb, but that's my read of it.
From that standpoint: Evergreen is a magical feminine entity (witch) that has her own domain in the forest, an untamed space that is not under regular "Normal and acceptable" forms of authority. The way she chooses to exercise her power is not merely passive. She is unapologetically lusty, actively siring only other magical feminine entities, a deliberate exclusion or rejection of traditional maleness. She has the ability and interest in using that power to corrupt the player character, turning them into a feminine subject under her power. She makes bargains with others in the world and will follow the letter of those bargains, but never discloses the full implications of the bargains made. Some of the bargains appear to be rather monkey paw in nature, to her benefit no matter what the consequences to the partner on the other side of the table.
A lot of these elements have a very long cultural history with negative connotations within "Western" storytelling. Wild, promiscuous, uncontrolled women at the edges of civilization engaging in bargains with powers both mundane and profane is a direct reference to witchcraft. With all of that cultural sauce baked into the media most of us have grown up with and consumed so passively we don't think about it, It's not at all surprising that Evergreen is labeled "Evil" by some players - since that's the association made to this bundle of elements together even if unconsciously.
Edit: Glad to know that intention of the authors too @WolframL
I have not pruned her content with a fine-toothed comb, but that's my read of it.
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Savin told us years ago that if 'Detect Evil' were a thing in this setting, Evergreen would be setting it off. Since then we've gotten a lot more in-game context for that statement. She transforms people into mindless 'nuki bimbos at a whim, like the multiple parties of adventurers she sent looking for her lost sex toys before you. This is no longer just subtext as you can see the results of her doing this with Matiha if you send her to Evergreen. Oh, and those adventurers? Just like you they're people she sent out without giving them proper context, just like she didn't give you the proper context of 'Hey, you might not be the first people I've sent into the den'.
And what does she do with these brainless bimbos she keeps around? Use them as spare bodies to transfer her soul into in order to prolong her life. There's a reason that both Senja and Meira mention that there's something different about those 'daughters' and that Evergreen always picks one of them as her successor (instead of the ones whose brains contain wrinkles) but only after kicking everyone else out. And there's a reason that Komari and Carmen both tell you that the Evergreen you've met is the same Evergreen that they both knew hundreds of years ago.
And what does she do with these brainless bimbos she keeps around? Use them as spare bodies to transfer her soul into in order to prolong her life. There's a reason that both Senja and Meira mention that there's something different about those 'daughters' and that Evergreen always picks one of them as her successor (instead of the ones whose brains contain wrinkles) but only after kicking everyone else out. And there's a reason that Komari and Carmen both tell you that the Evergreen you've met is the same Evergreen that they both knew hundreds of years ago.
She my champs hot Mommy.. who cares if she's evil.
I would call her manipulation of her children evil not just the emotional stuff but you know, the magical changes she makes to them.
And she's loathed by the other older beings in the area for apparent monkeys paw deals she's made with them. On top of that we don't actually know her intentions for her children, at least I don't. I've seen some people imply some pretty dodgy things based on dev/writers comments or the design documents, those intentions might be very clearly evil.
And she's loathed by the other older beings in the area for apparent monkeys paw deals she's made with them. On top of that we don't actually know her intentions for her children, at least I don't. I've seen some people imply some pretty dodgy things based on dev/writers comments or the design documents, those intentions might be very clearly evil.
Really? She seems quite happy to be fucked and knocked up by a masculine character. She'll even bless the champions balls with more virility, if asked to.
I think that can be explained by her need to breed. What was it she said, something along the lines of every moment not pregnant is wasted time?
I'm surprised that you're surprised. Does she not do both?
What about the statement is out of place?
Maybe she does do both, friend. I have no interest in scenes where the champ catches, so I'll trust your word if you tell me your point about her wanting to feminize the PC comes from that content.
But as things are, fact is a masculine champion can interact with her and do her quests, and all quests that contain her, pitch to her and breed her and her daughters... All while having his masculinity intact, if not boosted further in the form of virility.
That is the reason for my surprise at your statement. But sure, based on the tanuki bimbos of her making, I suppose one can imagine the content where the PC catches and is the one getting knocked up could give the impression you had.
Yea, well said.
If the PC chooses one of the scenes where they receive, over many repetitions she basically molds them into exactly what she wants them to be - a childbearer, and yea, she does also bear the PC's children herself if the player chooses masculine options. One way or another, her goal is to knock or be knocked.
Promiscuity is one of the big charges of evil leveled against witches when witchcraft was being stigmatized and prosecuted. Doesn't always translate in a modern day sex game, but her being willing to take big D from someone she isn't married to is consistent with the "immorality" behind the way she acts in that old timey way.
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Since we almost certainly will have the opportunity to kill Kas on path of the "Righteous Crusader"tm, it would be nice to vanquish the evil raccoon along the way too, on some point. You know, for all good against all bad. LG forever!
If that means Meira will finally be able to move into Wayfort as our court Witch then yes.
She and Evergreen are already preparing for her to leave the house and set up somewhere else (all of Evergreen's actual children leave at some point in their lives). That's part of why Meira opens up about her food alchemy. She wants to open a magic restaurant when she moves out.
You have to essentially pay attention to what is said about her and what she does in the game compared to the very blatant in-your-face evils like Kas and Tollus do. But yeah, she's intended to be evil.
Doesn't mean one isn't allowed to simp for her tho (seriously I was and still is baffled by how people had a problem with people simping for her and Kas, have y'all seriously never crushed on a villain before despite everything?), I like her character so far and it's genuinely funny to imagine the PC on-purposely looking the other way because they want momma tanuki despite all that's been said from others that knew of her centuries ago lmao
Doesn't mean one isn't allowed to simp for her tho (seriously I was and still is baffled by how people had a problem with people simping for her and Kas, have y'all seriously never crushed on a villain before despite everything?), I like her character so far and it's genuinely funny to imagine the PC on-purposely looking the other way because they want momma tanuki despite all that's been said from others that knew of her centuries ago lmao
OP, I think you're asking the wrong question. A better one would be, "Is Evergreen an ally or an antagonist?" When dealing with morally ambiguous or even evil characters in this game, that's low-key the only one that matters.
Evergreen is an ally because she helps us with Cait's personal quest for a fairly minor ask (give her another daughter, whether as the sire or incubator), gives us a side-quest that's the only way to get in the Kitsune Den (and while it is potentially dangerous, if you have Kiyoko's amulet it's impossible to fail), does a bunch of body mod services and can help with the Wayfort Upgrades quest enchantment requirement, at a discount if you've given her a daughter. She may be evil, but for now, she's on our side.
Ditto Arona & her tribe if you so Right of Conquest. They're Viking-esque warriors, pirates, slavers and rapists, but they can be talked down from raiding and they'll just sit there for the rest of the game, which will also open you up for multiple sexable NPCs, a unique merchant and a whole lotta pregnancy content. Allies, eventually.
By contrast, Alissa & Tollus are antagonists. It's not just about being evil, or them tormenting your precious cinnamon roll Companions to the point they have more more beef with them than Kasyrra. (Etheryn vs. Alissa, because, y'know, everything. Cait and Quin vs. Tollus because she had her sister abducted by those cultist creeps to sacrifice to Kasyrra, and he was manipulated by Tollus into joining the Cult before defecting to our side.) Those don't help, but the true clincher is that they are only interacted with as bosses to fight in dungeons, and as of now they absolutely cannot be turned to good. So they exist exclusively as obstacles to overcome while fighting Kasyrra and as the designated end bosses for our companions' character arcs.
Apply the same logic to all other evil characters we run into.
Evergreen is an ally because she helps us with Cait's personal quest for a fairly minor ask (give her another daughter, whether as the sire or incubator), gives us a side-quest that's the only way to get in the Kitsune Den (and while it is potentially dangerous, if you have Kiyoko's amulet it's impossible to fail), does a bunch of body mod services and can help with the Wayfort Upgrades quest enchantment requirement, at a discount if you've given her a daughter. She may be evil, but for now, she's on our side.
Ditto Arona & her tribe if you so Right of Conquest. They're Viking-esque warriors, pirates, slavers and rapists, but they can be talked down from raiding and they'll just sit there for the rest of the game, which will also open you up for multiple sexable NPCs, a unique merchant and a whole lotta pregnancy content. Allies, eventually.
By contrast, Alissa & Tollus are antagonists. It's not just about being evil, or them tormenting your precious cinnamon roll Companions to the point they have more more beef with them than Kasyrra. (Etheryn vs. Alissa, because, y'know, everything. Cait and Quin vs. Tollus because she had her sister abducted by those cultist creeps to sacrifice to Kasyrra, and he was manipulated by Tollus into joining the Cult before defecting to our side.) Those don't help, but the true clincher is that they are only interacted with as bosses to fight in dungeons, and as of now they absolutely cannot be turned to good. So they exist exclusively as obstacles to overcome while fighting Kasyrra and as the designated end bosses for our companions' character arcs.
Apply the same logic to all other evil characters we run into.
Honestly, I'm more surprised we don't already have an in-house magic expert for the fort. We have maids, a bailiff, a bartender and a pet dragon, all sexable, before we have a court mage. Hmm.
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Viv kind of fills that role if she's recruited, insofar as she hangs out at the wayfort and can be paid to do the enchanting and the dungeon magic.
You can simp for Evergreen like Emerald said, but that doesn't change the fact that she is, indeed, Evil.
I don't think that 'Well these people have a history with her' changes the fact that she mind-rapes people to destroy their personality and uses body hijacking to prolong her life. Again, this isn't subtext any more, you can literally see the end result of the former with Matiha getting turned into a brainless 'nuki bimbo if you send her to Evergreen, and we know the latter is true because Carmen and Komari both tell us it's so... as have the devs, repeatedly.
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It is not about simping. Carmen didn't tell much, so I didn't draw any definite conclusions. Komari is personally interested, because it was her granddaughter who tried to deceive Oxana and almost paid for it quite high price.
But if the dev say so - i don't have any other questions, evil means evil.
I have been around this forum long enough and seen enough threads to know the fan base cannot even start to establish a basis to start to define the word evil.
Personally I define evil as a word that people use it to other or out group someone.
In game it appears to be about selfishness/narcissism.
So if the devs say she fulfils the in game definition of evil, then for the purposes of the game she is evil.
Yeah that is a tautology. Yet gentle folks do not get your knickers in a twist; for this merely porn, elevated porn that strives to be more, but still porn.
Personally I define evil as a word that people use it to other or out group someone.
In game it appears to be about selfishness/narcissism.
So if the devs say she fulfils the in game definition of evil, then for the purposes of the game she is evil.
Yeah that is a tautology. Yet gentle folks do not get your knickers in a twist; for this merely porn, elevated porn that strives to be more, but still porn.
I find her to be more skullduggerous than outright maliciously evil. But still a kind of evil. And I play a generally good character.
But if there ever comes a point where Evergreen reveals a big evil plan for her to take more power than she should reasonably be trusted with I'm still gonna probably choose to help her win because she's best mommy who made all my pregnancies progress much faster. And she's probably got at least a few dozen nuki replacement vessels thanks to my champ alone already.
But if there ever comes a point where Evergreen reveals a big evil plan for her to take more power than she should reasonably be trusted with I'm still gonna probably choose to help her win because she's best mommy who made all my pregnancies progress much faster. And she's probably got at least a few dozen nuki replacement vessels thanks to my champ alone already.
What I'm getting from this thread is that most of the people posting in it who express ambiguity about Evergreen's evil play player characters with penises, or just don't read, because it blows my mind that anybody could see Oxana telling the PC "I'll give you [item], but only if you let me knock you up and take the baby for myself" and not immediately think of that character as being evil.
Like I said, Evergreen is evil, but it's better to accept that, and compartmentalise her as a villain who's on our side.
If there's word from the devs themselves saying that the character is meant to be interpreted as evil as @WolframL has pointed out, then it's pretty straightforward to me that she's meant to be evil and any content written that relates to her in the main story by the devs will intend to get that across.
I do however understand why people see ambiguity if not for the express word of the devs, and I am not someone who plays a masculine, "pitching", character. I'd remind you @Alypia that until very recently, premarital sex, and a whole slew of other things this game takes for granted were considered evil or in some way untoward, backwards, dubious or morally suspect. In fact, they still are considered evil by many people in spaces outside of this forum. Guys taking dick? Femboys? Unwed mothers? Demons and pacts with pagan gods? A woman having sole autonomy over what is done with her children? This entire game is evil.
Also not too long ago, within the last 100 years even, many women essentially had to make the trade of "I will bear children for you and take care of the home in exchange for not being disowned or looked down on by society" since there's legally a hell of a lot they couldn't do without being attached to a man, and the entire history of aristocracy IRL is basically baby trading for power.
Humor me for a moment. Pretend that you rewind the clock to the period of time that inspired the game. Remove all meta game context that we know like the dev's intention and Evergreen is real. Is she evil? Or is she taking the role of the male lord over a piece of land with the expectation that your player character is "the woman" with regards to decision making about children? What is the substantive difference between the two other than the soul transfer bits? I think its more interesting that the thought process we have is "obviously, she would be evil".
Throwing around the word evil in this game in full societal context is not the entirely obvious thing some people seem to think it is - especially when the game itself relies on aesthetics and power structures in the referenced parts of "medieval fantasy" history.
Evergreen is evil for babymaking with the intention of transfering her soul to new vessels. Sure. And I guarantee that Carmen the Baroness has a recent family history of marrying of young women in her family to much older men for alliances and control over land - and I'm certain that someone else she knows is married to and happily banging their first cousin.
Edit: I edited a typo "holder to older" as of the 26th, and I can see how the language here of "Guarantee" and certainty would lead someone to believe I'm literally only commenting on Carmen. I have not changed that language to hide it as of this edit, its a fair misuse of language to point out. Just the mentioned typo.
I do however understand why people see ambiguity if not for the express word of the devs, and I am not someone who plays a masculine, "pitching", character. I'd remind you @Alypia that until very recently, premarital sex, and a whole slew of other things this game takes for granted were considered evil or in some way untoward, backwards, dubious or morally suspect. In fact, they still are considered evil by many people in spaces outside of this forum. Guys taking dick? Femboys? Unwed mothers? Demons and pacts with pagan gods? A woman having sole autonomy over what is done with her children? This entire game is evil.
Also not too long ago, within the last 100 years even, many women essentially had to make the trade of "I will bear children for you and take care of the home in exchange for not being disowned or looked down on by society" since there's legally a hell of a lot they couldn't do without being attached to a man, and the entire history of aristocracy IRL is basically baby trading for power.
Humor me for a moment. Pretend that you rewind the clock to the period of time that inspired the game. Remove all meta game context that we know like the dev's intention and Evergreen is real. Is she evil? Or is she taking the role of the male lord over a piece of land with the expectation that your player character is "the woman" with regards to decision making about children? What is the substantive difference between the two other than the soul transfer bits? I think its more interesting that the thought process we have is "obviously, she would be evil".
Throwing around the word evil in this game in full societal context is not the entirely obvious thing some people seem to think it is - especially when the game itself relies on aesthetics and power structures in the referenced parts of "medieval fantasy" history.
Evergreen is evil for babymaking with the intention of transfering her soul to new vessels. Sure. And I guarantee that Carmen the Baroness has a recent family history of marrying of young women in her family to much older men for alliances and control over land - and I'm certain that someone else she knows is married to and happily banging their first cousin.
Edit: I edited a typo "holder to older" as of the 26th, and I can see how the language here of "Guarantee" and certainty would lead someone to believe I'm literally only commenting on Carmen. I have not changed that language to hide it as of this edit, its a fair misuse of language to point out. Just the mentioned typo.
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Listen, all I'm going to say is I wouldn't be suprised if we got to the last arc of the game to face Tollus in his lair, only to find him replaced by a bimbified amnesiac raccoon and their infinity stone taken.
"Champion! The big jiggly bimbo weapon is charging, you have to save Tychris!"
"Champion! The big jiggly bimbo weapon is charging, you have to save Tychris!"