Gweyr

[Paradox01]

Let's have an actual discussion and exchange of ideas about Gweyr and the FPS mission where we're allowed to look at events of the past through her eyes.

I'm a combat veteran with numerous deployments under my belt and I've done quite a bit of research on mercenary units throughout history so this quest really struck a chord with me.

I know what it's like to be trained to kill and then have those self-same people that wanted me trained turn their backs on me when I came home. Granted, my experiences have been nothing compared to those American Soldiers coming home from Viet Nam during the '60s and '70s, but I have actually had someone ask me about killing babies. Being sent off to kill for one's country and then coming home and expecting everything to be hunky-dory is not realistic, on either side.

Gweyr being a former mercenary is the flip side of the coin. Mercenaries do the same thing patriots do, they're just more honest about it. They do it for the money. Gweyr went off to fight, came home, and raised a family. She left all the fighting behind and tried raising a family.

One day, the war came to her front door and she was forced to make a decision; fight a bunch of youths from her village that had been brainwashed into joining a cult and rescue someone in imminent danger of being sacrificed, or stand down and let an innocent be murdered The people normally in charge of town security failed, as had the parents of the cult converts and town as a whole.

Gweyr is a former mercenary. As far back as 13th Century BC when Rameses II hired foreign fighters for his campaign in Syria, mercenaries have been used to either supplement or take the place of established armies, and the reasons for this are as varied as the mercenary units themselves. Some governments hire mercenaries as expendable troops or as a rear guard, or to train their soldiers in various aspects of warfare. Others just don’t have the wherewithal to raise an army of their own. Governments often hire mercenary units to enforce their policies when they don’t want to be seen enforcing them.

In any case, Gweyr made a decision and it cost her. She killed numerous young, untrained fighters standing between her and her goal of saving an innocent life. I believe she knew full well the cost she would be paying in the long run - banishment, scorn, the loss of her family - and yet she paid it anyway.

And THAT is what makes her a hero in my book. She knew what she had to lose was far worse than the risk to her life and yet she took the risk anyway. No one else was willing to pay the price so she paid it, all on her own and "Fuck you" to anyone else that wasn't willing to stand beside her and sacrifice as much as she.


And Tobs didn't only tell the story, he dared you to take a stand. He didn't do so with any caveats; at the end of the day, this story doesn't affect your Champion's standing in any way. You don't receive any S++ Weapons or Armor for agreeing or disagreeing with Gweyr. IMO, it was intentionally decisive. There's no Right or Wrong path here, just What Happened.

Discuss. And if anyone says someone else is retarded or evil for posting their thoughts on this topic, I WILL request this thread be closed.

 

[Savin]

Gweyr's my new favorite non-sex NPC for sure. That paralogue was extremely cool.

 

[sumgai]

I enjoyed the Gweyr's bit quite a bit as well. Enough to have done it three times on the same save before FINALLY moving on. But leaving another save so I can go back and read it again.

I'd add more, but I'm kind of in a rush this morning. However, what I'm really curious in that situation is Sanders. When he shows up to get Gweyr, he admits that she was right about not acting sooner. As a Warrior of White, it seems he had a code of conduct he had to adhere to. I'm guessing vaguely Paladin-y? Surely he tried to talk them down earlier? Or did he just chill out in the church? Need to hear his side. Garth doesn't dispute Gwey're claims of course. How does Sanders see it? At the very least I'm sure he's still kicking himself for not taking a different path.

 

[Animefan666]

I gotta say that I'm also curious about Sanders' role leading up to all of this. The town's people's complete ineptitude in dealing with the problem before it got out of control and the lives lost as a result makes me think there was more than enough guilt and self-loathing to go around. Gweyr, being literally the only one that saw this coming and having the will and ability to actually do something about it despite the circumstances makes me question Sanders' role in defending the town.

His decision to banish Gweyr was likely as much to protect her as it was to cover up the town's people's failure. It served to pass the buck so they could feel better about themselves rather than admit that their inaction made them more responsible. Gweyr would've been a constant reminder of their own failure and guilt.

I wonder if we'll be seeing a bit of follow-up later on in the form of some mercenaries being hired by one or more of the old residents to take out Gweyr when news of her still being alive reaches them or maybe some of them join the cult with the hope of gaining the power to do the deed themselves?

 

[Savin]

I'm guessing Sanders' talk on the matter isn't in current patch? Well, there is one written, so if not it'll be in next time probably.

 

[sumgai]

I'm guessing Sanders' talk on the matter isn't in current patch? Well, there is one written, so if not it'll be in next time probably.

I literally went to Sanders after talking to Garth about Gweyr to hear his take. Interested in seeing it.

 

[agreenfish]

Another point I haven't seen yet is that she was killing those under mind control by Tollus. While they may have been salvageable in-universe, if I had lost autonomy over my mind and body to that degree, I probably would seek death too -- depending on the exact circumstances of what they had done or been doing, you could potentially argue that she was doing them a service. Probably not, but it's a potential approach to the problem.

Regardless of the answer to the above, though, I genuinely believe that someone of sound mind could come to the conclusions and actions she did, especially during a life or death scenario. The only thing that really bothered me is that some of her dialogue almost made it seem like she was doing it out of spite (eg "I'll show Tollus what I think of people using human shields") rather than absolute necessity.

 

[EvilK]

Another point I haven't seen yet is that she was killing those under mind control by Tollus. While they may have been salvageable in-universe, if I had lost autonomy over my mind and body to that degree, I probably would seek death too -- depending on the exact circumstances of what they had done or been doing, you could potentially argue that she was doing them a service. Probably not, but it's a potential approach to the problem.

Regardless of the answer to the above, though, I genuinely believe that someone of sound mind could come to the conclusions and actions she did, especially during a life or death scenario. The only thing that really bothered me is that some of her dialogue almost made it seem like she was doing it out of spite (eg "I'll show Tollus what I think of people using human shields") rather than absolute necessity.

I wouldn't say she did them a service. Death is death with no second chances. There may well have been a cure via a purifying ritual or alchemical concoction.

I will also disagree on the idea that anyone of sound mind would make the same choices as Gweyr. Many people wouldn't be so quick to kill people who had up till then been living in a community with them and that they had gotten to know well to varying degrees, not to mention so many. I would argue that the average person would only do this if they felt like their life was in danger and self preservation guided their actions. Gweyr on the other hand made it pretty clear she was in no real danger.

Ultimately this story serves to show us moral ambiguity that is Gweyr's character. A hardass individual who takes the most direct and risk free solution and has no problem eliminating any threat even if she previously liked them.
I find that the Champion's answer in saying she isn't a monster the closest I feel to the situation: her actions were monstrous but she herself isn't one.

 

[Tenalc13]

I asked my friend how he would act in this situation. And he worked as a psychologist in the army and was on the front line. Now he is a lawyer. So he is the perfect candidate for such questions. And of course the answer was that he would have done the same, because protecting his life is one of the most important rights. But what to do next is a difficult question, since it is not known what laws are applied in this area. But the most logical thing is to ask the higher authorities to solve the problem.

 

[Savin]

But the most logical thing is to ask the higher authorities to solve the problem.

That's the problem with living on the frontier; there really isn't a higher authority. Carmen's there but she neither has nor executes any kind of executive authority over the village; she just hides in her castle all day.

Or, to quote Heinlein, "Violence is the ultimate authority from which all authority is derived," which I suppose made Gweyr the highest authority in the area.

 

[sumgai]

That's the problem with living on the frontier; there really isn't a higher authority. Carmen's there but she neither has nor executes any kind of executive authority over the village; she just hides in her castle all day.

Or, to quote Heinlein, "Violence is the ultimate authority from which all authority is derived," which I suppose made Gweyr the highest authority in the area.

Sanders seemed confident that he could out rank her if push came to shove. :^)

 

[Tenalc13]

That's the problem with living on the frontier; there really isn't a higher authority. Carmen's there but she neither has nor executes any kind of executive authority over the village; she just hides in her castle all day.

Not surprisingly, frost matches have so many problems and we, as a champion, have to sort out the problems.

By the way, a question. Does Carmen have any money in her disposition or is she just being here as governor? I just don't remember if it was said in the game or not.

And if we talk about problem solving. If I were in her place, I would hire mercenaries or ask to send a military detachment to resolve the problem with the cult. But as I understand it, this is not possible, since the empire simply does not have the necessary resources after the Godswar.

 

[Alypia]

Or, to quote Heinlein, "Violence is the ultimate authority from which all authority is derived," which I suppose made Gweyr the highest authority in the area.

"When the kids are attacked - when some asshole with a grudge decides he's gonna murder them both - Atticus is off somewhere being civilized. Law enforcement is off somewhere enforcing the law. Civil society is off being civilly social. When the real fucking world comes after two kids with a hunting knife, who's there for them? Who's the only fucking one who gets it? Who's the only one paying attention to what the real world really is?"

 

[TheShepard256]

By the way, a question. Does Carmen have any money in her disposition or is she just being here as governor? I just don't remember if it was said in the game or not.

She's financing the nursery to the extent that it won't have to be shut down, and the reason she's not giving it even more funding isn't because she can't afford it. So yes, she does have a lot of money (at least by Hawkethorne's standards).

 

[Alypia]

the reason she's not giving it even more funding isn't because she can't afford it.

Ostensibly, anyway.

 

[WolframL]

And if we talk about problem solving. If I were in her place, I would hire mercenaries or ask to send a military detachment to resolve the problem with the cult.

The Frost Marches are remote enough that one can't simply whistle up a large force of trained fighters on short notice. The nearest population center that might be able to offer aid is Khor'minos and after what happened the last time they stuck their necks out as good neighbors it's hard to blame them for being leery of extending themselves again. The Winter City has been in isolation since the Godswar and all indications are that Tychris is having enough trouble scraping by as a remnant its former self that it can't afford to offer any aid to others. The next places we know about that definitely can afford to spare troops as either mercenaries or a formal mission to help an ally (Tronarii and Jassira) are months away once you factor in two-way travel and the time to negotiate and prepare for an expedition. Not much help on short notice.

Oh, and Carmen most certainly can afford to hire mercenaries; who do you think the Marked Merks are ostensibly working for?

But as I understand it, this is not possible, since the empire simply does not have the necessary resources after the Godswar.

It's less that the empire doesn't have the resources and more that the empire no longer exists.

Carmen even raises this issue when you do the Royal Amnesty quest: She's nominally a Belharan noble but the nation itself is long defunct and she can't offer Ryn anything more than a modicum of hospitality since she has no military power of her own or that she can call on from outside.

 

[Savin]

Does Carmen have any money in her disposition or is she just being here as governor?

She has some money, mostly in accounts at Tychris; not a lot either way. She DOES try hiring mercs later and look how that turns out.

She's not really "here as governor," she's just lived in the castle since before the villagers arrived to settle there. There's no empire or kingdom to send governors out to rule provinces; she's just nominally the Baroness because she says she is and nobody cares enough to say "No, me." Except Tollus, maybe, but that's where Gweyr came in.

 

[Tenalc13]

When I talked about hiring mercenaries, I was referring to solving problems with the fledgling cult of Tolus. But according to Savin's answers, look like Carmen is not at all interested in the affairs of the region or she just doesn't give a shit.
I'm also wondering if she collects taxes / tribute from the residents of Hawkethorne. If so, here is who is indeed corrupt. IRL corruption. I wonder if we have a way to solve this problem in the future.

PS: Something too complex topics for a PORN game >_>

Just kidding. I really like your story and what topics are raised. Keep going.

 

[The Observer]

I'm also wondering if she collects taxes / tribute from the residents of Hawkethorne.

She does not. Garth and Sanders have offered to gather people to fix up the castle, but she's said no so far.

Tax collection requires considerable bureaucracy and enforcement, and even if she wanted to collect taxes her only civil servant is a half-broken gargoyle.

As the boss said, most of her money is actually illiquid and tied up in various investments in Tychris.

 

[Savin]

look like Carmen is not at all interested in the affairs of the region or she just doesn't give a shit

More like is completely impotent.

 

[Ossa]

I like this. I like seeing how little attention can be paid to the lore, sometimes. A lot of this actively gets spelled out by Carmen herself, though how much of it is her telling the truth is up to debate.

What we -do- know from her and other sources is that the Belharan Empire came to an end a long, long time ago. South of the Frost Marches, I imagine a setting of City States would be greatly exaggerating the situation. It's more likely what's going on up here, at Hawkethorne; you've got maybe one or two local authorities with varying degrees of power, and you've got people living in a few settlements just trying to get by. Very little power, very little strength, very little military presence at all.

What used to be the Belharan Empire is back to the lawless wastes, the wild west. And it's been that way since the Godswar. They can't even produce Steel anymore, they're stuck with Bronze.

The only authority that matters around here these days is the authority of power, the right of conquest. If you have the power to do it, then that's all there is to it.

 

[Evil]

At the end of the day, Gweyr saw a threat to her home and family and acted in a way to protect both.

Granted, it cost her pretty much everything, but her children got to grow up safely, her home still stands and its quite possible that some who still live in the village are living with the guilt of hiding and doing nothing while punishing the one person who fought for them.

 

[Alypia]

What we -do- know from her and other sources is that the Belharan Empire came to an end a long, long time ago. South of the Frost Marches, I imagine a setting of City States would be greatly exaggerating the situation. It's more likely what's going on up here, at Hawkethorne; you've got maybe one or two local authorities with varying degrees of power, and you've got people living in a few settlements just trying to get by. Very little power, very little strength, very little military presence at all.

There are city-states, some of which (e.g. Barania) are name-checked in the Codex. But there are also a multitude of petty warlords indulging in imperial pretensions who spend their time pouring out what blood remains in the Heartlands in futile endemic warfare. There is power and strength, to some degree, but it's disunited and frittered away through fratricide; there is greater urbanization and "civilization" than in the Frost Marches, but also more conflict.

A useful comparison might be Italy in the wake of the Gothic War of the sixth century: the hollowed-out, depopulated remains of a dead empire, still dotted with cities but lacking significant central oversight, and the playground of Lombard and Roman and papal and local warlords with shifting, temporary allegiances. Despite all that, Italy was still, y'know, Italy - it was settled, it retained some wealth, it was divided up among various political authorities with varying degrees of legitimacy. The big difference, of course, is that Italy after 568 wasn't also infested with the wraith-touched flotsam of the Godswar to lurk in the darker parts of the countryside.

There is life and civilization in the remnants of Old Belhar, just as there was in the wreckage of Italy. Evelyn, Clementine, and the material deriving from character backgrounds indicate as much. There are places that can support an aristocracy familiar with at least some refinement and comfort. There are places settled enough (and with a high enough agricultural surplus) to have a large urban poor, along with organized crime. There are places that can support academia, and there are, as ever, the connections between communities created by the cults of the Seven. Trade isn't unknown, and is in fact greatly facilitated by a common coinage even if transport costs are undoubtedly sky-high.

As bad as things are in the Heartlands for many people, one shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the Marches are a barely-inhabited frontier zone with minimal formal authority, and that that is seen to be unusual.

 

[EvilK]

At the end of the day, Gweyr saw a threat to her home and family and acted in a way to protect both.

Granted, it cost her pretty much everything, but her children got to grow up safely, her home still stands and its quite possible that some who still live in the village are living with the guilt of hiding and doing nothing while punishing the one person who fought for them.

That's the reason no one wants to talk about it in the town. The tragedy of that night coupled with the guilt makes it that no one wants to bring it up again.

 

[Omega2178]

I liked it a lot. A pretty good moral dilemma. I don’t got a lot to add that others haven’t but all I can say now is
Gweyr Op, please nerf

 

[Titanio]

The nearest population center that might be able to offer aid is Khor'minos and after what happened the last time they stuck their necks out as good neighbors it's hard to blame them for being leery of extending themselves again.

What Happened with khor'minos last time? Just curious

 

[sumgai]

What Happened with khor'minos last time? Just curious

Have you done the Shades of the Past quest yet?

 

[Titanio]

Have you done the Shades of the Past quest yet?

That the quest for the cryomancer set for brint? If it is, I didnt started it because im always playing with brienne

 

[WolframL]

It's the one where Garth sends you to a haunted fortress for Reasons. It unlocks a couple days after you finish the Dog Days quest.

 

[Titanio]

It's the one where Garth sends you to a haunted fortress for Reasons. It unlocks a couple days after you finish the Dog Days quest.

Oh, that quest