Duel wielding is kind of shallow...

[Melancholy Man]

So I've been playing for a collective week now and I've noticed how little you combine weapon types; I can't wield axes together which a crime in any self-respecting fantasy title (even characters in the portraits do this), can't wield short-swords with spears or a Long sword with short-spears/javalins a Knight classic. It's really weird to me, like if balance is a priority, why can't these combinations have a stat requirement then?

 

[WolframL]

Because the devs do not want to encourage people to feel like they need to give their Champs a certain body or stat type in order to play the game (a flaw the original CoC had as did early TiTS) so they aren't going to gate equipment behind either of those things.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Because the devs do not want to encourage people to feel like they need to give their Champs a certain body or stat type in order to play the game (a flaw the original CoC had as did early TiTS) so they aren't going to gate equipment behind either of those things.

but we can freely change our stats around? there are like 3 vendors we can use. And the whole point of roleplaying is to fit into a mold of your making. It seems counter-intuitive to me.

 

[Nuin]

but we can freely change our stats around? there are like 3 vendors we can use. And the whole point of roleplaying is to fit into a mold of your making. It seems counter-intuitive to me.

As I've played the original CoC1, I can tell you I absolutely cherish the fact Savin and the other devs learned from that exact mistake and didn't recreate it for CoC2. I'd rather have the game be it as it's now than running to a class teacher every fucking time to realocate my points because "combination X" let's me wield weapon Y and weapon Z in conjunction with skill α....stop, just stop.

Most people playing CoC2 don't want it to be the next Elden Ring, Dark Souls or BloodBorne...they don't NEED game mechanics of a triple AAA title or with a 100+ hired staff strong development label. It's mostly about a good story, easy and enjoyable combat, and more smut then a Witcher or Mass Effect provides in between for a nice sandwich.

The kind of suggestions you make would, while raising combat mechanics to another level (good or bad alike), it would over-complicate anything to the point it's not enjoyable anymore and would press players into things they wouldn't want to - like CoC1 did.
You wanted stuns? Enjoy TFing a dragon tail to be able to use a 1-round stun, or just mere 4 body parts to get a 2-turn stunning dragon breath!
The most powerful build? You HAD to add a naga lower body to the dragon mix to be the all-powerful CC-god.

You want to bring back things like that - even if only with a hodgepodge of statpoints being thrown around to get certain perks - to get us back on that crappy road again? No thank you. Not even with a shallow argument like "if you don't want it you can easily change it back". This doesn't enhance my enjoyment of the game but over-complicates it and robs me of my enjoyment - I like being able to play my characters however I want without being forced to put points into things I don't want, just to get something I maybe kind of want. Games like Pathfinder or Diablo already do a fine job regarding that, don't need such things here aswell.

 

[SeveringCrisis]

You suggest some strange styles and I wonder where they come from. short-swords and spears? Longswords and javelins? That sounds incredibly unwieldy (But I'm not a martial-artist, what do I know?)

As for dual-wielding axes, aren't there Franciscas that you can dual wield? I would say that perhaps more 'mystical' options is lacking for a fantasy game, but it seems to me your complaint for dual-wielding is the inability of holding larger weapons in one hand alongside another.

 

[Melancholy Man]

You suggest some strange styles and I wonder where they come from. short-swords and spears? Longswords and javelins? That sounds incredibly unwieldy (But I'm not a martial-artist, what do I know?)

I got you brov, heres my sources; https://youtube.com/shorts/dZE7K5CmOdI?feature=share -dude explains historical use of sword & spears,
"Gladiatoria, 5v – with secondary weapon

This guard gives the illusion of proximity, but if used in short controlled re-directions with good footwork, it is very difficult to get past. It can be used with a short sword or dagger as an offensive weapon, making the staff like holding a very large shield. If used without a secondary weapon, a two-handed grip allows short, quick strikes or thrusts to any part of your enemy, especially lower limbs.

There is also a modified version of this guard where the stave/spear is held with both hands and does not necessarily rest on the ground. The spear is held somewhat more in front of the body at an angle, almost like a very low Hengen. This particular guard is also seen in Filipo Vadi’s manual with spear, with the hands being held as seen here in Gladiatoria for spear and stave. Gladiatoria tell us that this is an important guard from which all other guards and techniques of the staff derive from." - an excerpt taken from this site: https://www.swordsmanship.ca/academy-articles/fighting-with-staff-and-spear/

Don't know if you ever played SoulCalibur but there is a character called Hilde. She's a fan favorite of the series and she uses a shortsword and flagspear.​

 

[Melancholy Man]

As I've played the original CoC1, I can tell you I absolutely cherish the fact Savin and the other devs learned from that exact mistake and didn't recreate it for CoC2. I'd rather have the game be it as it's now than running to a class teacher every fucking time to realocate my points because "combination X" let's me wield weapon Y and weapon Z in conjunction with skill α....stop, just stop.

You do still run to vendors regardless to reallocate points tho, its just now the synergistic purpose for doing so is gone. I never played CoC1 or knew about it so can't exactly relate but I've played my fair share of rpgs; nothings beats being rewarded with class exclusive abilities and loot.

The kind of suggestions you make would, while raising combat mechanics to another level (good or bad alike), it would over-complicate anything to the point it's not enjoyable anymore and would press players into things they wouldn't want to - like CoC1 did.
You wanted stuns? Enjoy TFing a dragon tail to be able to use a 1-round stun, or just mere 4 body parts to get a 2-turn stunning dragon breath!
The most powerful build? You HAD to add a naga lower body to the dragon mix to be the all-powerful CC-god.

This right here sounds so much more interactive than what we have now; TFs get copy-paste references and don't even have an impact on combat or stats now, you're making it sound better, guv. If anything, it sounds like CoC1 had a balance problem but nailed the concept and game design.

 

[zagzig]

You mentioned not being able to dual wield axes, when franciscas are available from Ogrish at the very start of the game - I imagine these fell beneath your notice because they're statted as light weapons and thus aren't significantly more powerful than other dual wield options. Would a spear/longsword combination still be satisfying if they're at the same power level of daggers or short swords? Are you looking for new, differently flavoured light weapons, or to be able to dual wield weapons like the Skypiercer and Ashelander? Because there's different challenges developmentally for each one.

I want new, differently flavoured light items to cover a broader range of weapon archetypes - the obstacle here is not wanting to flood the game with a bunch of weapons which mechanically cover the same ground as weapons already in the game. A dual wieldable spear needs to be significantly different enough from a dagger or throwing knife to merit inclusion. To which, "items are already too similar" is an argument for less new items, not more.

I want to dual wield items already in the game that are not presently statted as light weapons - the obstacle here is balance concerns - how do you balance adding a bunch of new, more powerful items to the dual wield pool. What kind of stat penalties do you need to apply to keep Blight Tendril/Skypiercer Eviscerate from cheesing the game? To which, "the game is already broken" is an argument for more consideration given to balance, not less.

 

[Boshe]

You can easily give the light tag to existing weapons, re-stat them, rename and give them different descriptions. I'm having fun with a character with two axes, both Veteran and Twist the Knife and Kas' Double Attack, balance be damned.

This right here sounds so much more interactive than what we have now; TFs get copy-paste references and don't even have an impact on combat or stats now, you're making it sound better, guv. If anything, it sounds like CoC1 had a balance problem but nailed the concept and game design.

Getting pressured by games (and mods for them) into playing races (or other customization options, fuck no I ain't playing a Malacath-fearing orc when all he does is stamina reduction for power attacks) one did not initially intend, often to the detriment of one's enjoyment, due to metagaming nonsense is a perpetual issue with RPGs with only one solution, and as a game primarily about transforming one's character into something desirable to the fullest extent possible, CoC2 really had to take it.

franciscas

Are throwable and, as such, lack the same bite as Brint's (or even Byvernia's, as hers are on cool chains, even if they are implied to be franciscas too).

 

[War Demon]

I think we can all thank Brint for the Duel Wielding envy, lol

 

[War Demon]

Byvernia's, as hers are on cool chains

Yeah just like Kratos in God Of War.

 

[Melancholy Man]

You mentioned not being able to dual wield axes, when franciscas are available from Ogrish at the very start of the game - I imagine these fell beneath your notice because they're statted as light weapons and thus aren't significantly more powerful than other dual wield options. Would a spear/longsword combination still be satisfying if they're at the same power level of daggers or short swords? Are you looking for new, differently flavoured light weapons, or to be able to dual wield weapons like the Skypiercer and Ashelander? Because there's different challenges developmentally for each one.

I want new, differently flavoured light items to cover a broader range of weapon archetypes - the obstacle here is not wanting to flood the game with a bunch of weapons which mechanically cover the same ground as weapons already in the game. A dual wieldable spear needs to be significantly different enough from a dagger or throwing knife to merit inclusion. To which, "items are already too similar" is an argument for less new items, not more.

I want to dual wield items already in the game that are not presently statted as light weapons - the obstacle here is balance concerns - how do you balance adding a bunch of new, more powerful items to the dual wield pool. What kind of stat penalties do you need to apply to keep Blight Tendril/Skypiercer Eviscerate from cheesing the game? To which, "the game is already broken" is an argument for more consideration given to balance, not less.

That's a good thought process, I did think about it though; I'd use historical significance and gaming culture for allowed combinations as well as different patterns of attack and specific benefits to differentiate between the combinations. An example I'd use is: Longswords + spears would have the PC attack twice on turn1 then once on turn2, alternating between those, Swords/Axes/Mace combinations would give you +crits received debuff and slight damage received debuff.
Personally, my stance on balance for single-player games goes on a few aspects; is it fun? Does it benefit the gameplay loop of the game? Does it tie into other mechanics or aspects of the game? Does it encourage mastery of the gameplay?
There are plenty of great games that have broken options in them that don't take away from their difficulty, Dark Souls is one such game with many broken options but still holds its difficulty by making them things to obtain through getting to them and pumping resources into them that are either found in harder areas or requires grind or player knowledge to make use of said broken thing. Another way is by giving enemies access to the same options as the player or giving the foes different and unique options the player doesn't have, like in the Batman Arkham series.

 

[Melancholy Man]

You can easily give the light tag to existing weapons, re-stat them, rename and give them different descriptions. I'm having fun with a character with two axes, both Veteran and Twist the Knife and Kas' Double Attack, balance be damned.

How do I learn this power?

 

[Melancholy Man]

Getting pressured by games (and mods for them) into playing races (or other customization options, fuck no I ain't playing a Malacath-fearing orc when all he does is stamina reduction for power attacks) one did not initially intend, often to the detriment of one's enjoyment, due to metagaming nonsense is a perpetual issue with RPGs with only one solution, and as a game primarily about transforming one's character into something desirable to the fullest extent possible, CoC2 really had to take it.

the concept could've been rebalanced or reworked into giving incentives for tfs rather than messing with mechanics, e.g. Tfing Mino body/limbs gives the pC +5 physical dam resist and +10 dam to bleeding targets or Lupine muzzle/limbs give 20% more to bleed damage. And since I've looked around the forum found a link dl flash player and I've been playing the OG on-n-off, I've realized even more how Perks in CoC2 are irrelevant compared to its predecessor where every perk is anticipated.

 

[something]

the concept could've been rebalanced or reworked into giving incentives for tfs rather than messing with mechanics, e.g. Tfing Mino body/limbs gives the pC +5 physical dam resist and +10 dam to bleeding targets or Lupine muzzle/limbs give 20% more to bleed damage. And since I've looked around the forum found a link dl flash player and I've been playing the OG on-n-off, I've realized even more how Perks in CoC2 are irrelevant compared to its predecessor where every perk is anticipated.

I prefer messing with mechanics than needing TF to have certain stats, I don't want to TF my PC to have a certain type of gameplay.

 

[Boshe]

How do I learn this power?

the console (and files)

the concept could've been rebalanced or reworked into giving incentives for tfs rather than messing with mechanics, e.g. Tfing Mino body/limbs gives the pC +5 physical dam resist and +10 dam to bleeding targets or Lupine muzzle/limbs give 20% more to bleed damage.

this absolutely would be enough for someone doing bleed builds to start rationalizing why their kitsune ninja has the body of a minotaur and limbs of a lupine

And since I've looked around the forum found a link dl flash player and I've been playing the OG on-n-off, I've realized even more how Perks in CoC2 are irrelevant compared to its predecessor where every perk is anticipated.

if you're talking about class perks, then yeah they could've been stronger than just nice buffs on top of everything else

 

[something]

I prefer messing with mechanics than needing TF to have certain stats, I don't want to TF my PC to have a certain type of gameplay.

Forget what I said, I didn't get the context right.

Getting pressured by games (and mods for them) into playing races (or other customization options, fuck no I ain't playing a Malacath-fearing orc when all he does is stamina reduction for power attacks) one did not initially intend, often to the detriment of one's enjoyment, due to metagaming nonsense is a perpetual issue with RPGs with only one solution, and as a game primarily about transforming one's character into something desirable to the fullest extent possible, CoC2 really had to take it.

I agree.

 

[Melancholy Man]

the console (and files)

but how do I use them tho, got a video I could use as an example?

 

[Melancholy Man]

I like how I recommend a couple of incentives (meaning: a thing that motivates or encourages someone to do something.) to make perks more appealing, automatically makes ya'll want to center your build around them.... interesting its like they got your attention more ain't it?

 

[Boshe]

but how do I use them tho, got a video I could use as an example?

Use F12 to open the console, it should shrink the list of available functions down as you type, take note of the pc. object. No videos, but there's a decently recent post around, try searching for "browser console".

its like they got your attention more ain't it?

The optimizer in me is always interested in more bonuses to stack, in any game, but I'd much rather have PCs not be reliant on how they look to be at their best in combat, especially in a smut game based on looking how you want. I'd just console those perks in onto whoever I'd want, if they were to be given the light of day.

 

[TheGSone]

Being this a porn game, and for a mainly furry audience no less, the character's appearance will NEED to be separated from combat mechanics, to allow everybody to be whatever they want to be.

We could use more variety of weapons, with barely different stats, as they are not necessarily the main objective of the game, but they help draw a mental image of our desired character.

I, for example, love dual wielding the franciscas, although you are not getting a strong character that way. So I just lower the difficulty.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Use F12 to open the console, it should shrink the list of available functions down as you type, take note of the pc. object. No videos, but there's a decently recent post around, try searching for "browser console".

Thanks for the recommend, I'll check it out.

The optimizer in me is always interested in more bonuses to stack, in any game, but I'd much rather have PCs not be reliant on how they look to be at their best in combat, especially in a smut game based on looking how you want. I'd just console those perks in onto whoever I'd want, if they were to be given the light of day.

you wanting to optimize is an intrinsic goal (a goal you set for yourself) that's none of the Devs' concern (tho the benefits are there to trigger the optimizer in you to make perks seem more important), what they should be concerned with is making extrinsic and intrinsic rewards and mechanics interest; let's be real perks are purposeless and transforms are shallow, especially compared to its predecessor. they should've been reworked to fit the new systems instead of being stripped down to their bones. Adding combat value and flavor text value will give them that depth they need.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Being this a porn game, and for a mainly furry audience no less, the character's appearance will NEED to be separated from combat mechanics, to allow everybody to be whatever they want to be.

We could use more variety of weapons, with barely different stats, as they are not necessarily the main objective of the game, but they help draw a mental image of our desired character.

I, for example, love dual wielding the franciscas, although you are not getting a strong character that way. So I just lower the difficulty.

I have seen this argument all the time "it's a porn game" or "its not for your audience", being a porn game does not excuse for shitty or flawed game design unless you like the hard work of others being degraded to "it's just a silly cheap porn game" I guest 5yrs of slaving away at a passion project doesn't warrant much in your eyes, eh? The audience bit does hold water for specific issues but I wasn't commenting on its furry content, so I don't see how it relates to me.

 

[Boshe]

I have seen this argument all the time "it's a porn game" or "its not for your audience", being a porn game does not excuse for shitty or flawed game design unless you like the hard work of others being degraded to "it's just a silly cheap porn game" I guest 5yrs of slaving away at a passion project doesn't warrant much in your eyes, eh? The audience bit does hold water for specific issues but I wasn't commenting on its furry content, so I don't see how it relates to me.

The point of this argument is not to excuse flawed game design, but to point out that it is a different path in game design. TFs are not shallow, they are purely cosmetic and they are purely cosmetic specifically because this is a game where cosmetics are put on a pedestal. What you are proposing would not be equivalent to something like adding better perks, item sets and weapon effects to a game like the Witcher, but more to something like adding bonuses to CS:GO skins (which on their own were a change that the CS:GO community definitely adored to bits, did not criticize in the slightest and were not silenced by Valve in any way).

 

[Melancholy Man]

The point of this argument is not to excuse flawed game design, but to point out that it is a different path in game design. TFs are not shallow, they are purely cosmetic and they are purely cosmetic specifically because this is a game where cosmetics are put on a pedestal. What you are proposing would not be equivalent to something like adding better perks, item sets and weapon effects to a game like the Witcher

I would have agreed with you if this was Coc1 and not 2 on the bit about cosmetics being put on a pedestal point but they aren't, they are mentioned in copy-paste fashion in sex scenes but there aren't any special interactions throughout the game for them or requirements of TFs, not even flavor text dialogues come up and the few (and I mean few) that do occur are far between and only amount to a line or two, not even impacting the conversation they're mentioned in.
Better Perks and Tfs make it feel better to roleplay in but they don't have to be combat-centric alone, they can add flavor text or short-cuts to quests and the like, an example I mention in my gripes about them is Fallout1 and Fallout NV because they do it right.

but more to something like adding bonuses to CS:GO skins (which on their own were a change that the CS:GO community definitely adored to bits, did not criticize in the slightest and were not silenced by Valve in any way)

Not sure about that bit, not really in the loop so that's going over my head but will say that adding benefits to the skin is a great idea in a single-player game, it's wrong to do it in a multi-player game because that's pay-to-win, and that doesn't apply to this convo.

 

[TheGSone]

I have seen this argument all the time "it's a porn game" or "its not for your audience", being a porn game does not excuse for shitty or flawed game design unless you like the hard work of others being degraded to "it's just a silly cheap porn game" I guest 5yrs of slaving away at a passion project doesn't warrant much in your eyes, eh? The audience bit does hold water for specific issues but I wasn't commenting on its furry content, so I don't see how it relates to me.

As Boshe said, "it's a porn game" isn't an excuse for a poorly designed game. In fact, I think this is a great game, with it's own charms and flaws.

The part about the intended audience wasn't about you specifically, but to tackle the direction the discussion was taking (the game will always be compared to coc 1, for better or for worse)

I repeat, we could do with more weapons, even when those would be extremely similar to the ones we have now. Bloating a merchants inventory is trivial when one can achieve maximum immersion. So you could say I agree with you on that point. I'm also a spear enthusiast, and suffer with the next-to-nothing representation it gets everywhere.

But you can't give those things stat requirements, because that would make some classes unable to them. You'd need to give everyone something as powerful as that, to compensate.

 

[Melancholy Man]

But you can't give those things stat requirements, because that would make some classes unable to them. You'd need to give everyone something as powerful as that, to compensate.

Of course, you can and should, that's the point of roleplay to play a role. You can't be everything everywhere at once, but the game allows that too with Vendors for reallocating core stat points so it is easy to experiment. I'm saying the benefits would be an incentive, something you don't have to engage with if you don't want to, and get over your fear of missing out. It's better to have TFs do something more than just a shallow cosmetic, it is more engaging to have different Perks that favor different builds and commentary.

 

[TheGSone]

It's better to have TFs do something more than just a shallow cosmetic

This I don't agree with, at all. Sometimes, getting your desired appearance can take some time. Negligible time, but most people couldn't be bothered. Invalidating personal preferences in favour of greater power is not ideal.

If you'd tell me that being a minotaur is the optimal way of playing a warrior, or that elves are the peak of magic casters, I would hate the game.

This was the plague of coc 1. Although I never felt it (because my preferences aligned perfectly with being a naga/dragon/ghost with tentacle hair), I can remember the people complaining.

The rest of the argument I agree with. Maybe warrior will get a perk to dual wield non light, non two-handed weapons eventually

 

[Shrike675]

The entire reason tf giving perks and stats got axed for 2 is precisely because that was an issue in 1. Why bother looking like your ocsona when the flying Naga dragon made you immune to being stunned and gave powerful abilities?

 

[Melancholy Man]

This I don't agree with, at all. Sometimes, getting your desired appearance can take some time. Negligible time, but most people couldn't be bothered. Invalidating personal preferences in favour of greater power is not ideal.

If you'd tell me that being a minotaur is the optimal way of playing a warrior, or that elves are the peak of magic casters, I would hate the game.

Having a benefit does not negate or invalidate your choice; they benefit you, stubborn fuddy-duddy. You can ignore them and do your own thing. Getting a magic bonus for being Elf does not stop you from being a berserker or a warrior. In fact, they already structured the game in a way to make that same example work because you can use abilities outside your class if it pleases you. You playing the game optimally is your choice. You're telling me you can't ignore a few numbers and benefits so you can do what you want? The triple-A scene must have trained the independence out of you then.

This was the plague of coc 1. Although I never felt it (because my preferences aligned perfectly with being a naga/dragon/ghost with tentacle hair), I can remember the people complaining.

The rest of the argument I agree with. Maybe warrior will get a perk to dual wield non light, non two-handed weapons eventually

Perks can be reworked to fit Coc2, Coc1 had little going for it so I can understand why it leaned into its core mechanic; it's both a hit and a miss in my eyes.