Duel wielding is kind of shallow...

Melancholy Man

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2023
364
195
27
Greenhills
The entire reason tf giving perks and stats got axed for 2 is precisely because that was an issue in 1. Why bother looking like your ocsona when the flying Naga dragon made you immune to being stunned and gave powerful abilities?
They can be rebalanced and reworked, they don't have to be the same. In fact, the most interesting ability I've seen is Tail whip; it changes based on the type of tail you currently have, it's a shame that it doesn't scale. The guy that designed that move should get a lot more talking time during the weekly progress meeting during game design talks because he knows what he's doing.
 

TheGSone

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2020
81
72
You playing the game optimally is your choice. You're telling me you can't ignore a few numbers and benefits so you can do what you want? The triple-A scene must have trained the independence out of you then.
I'll admit I feel personally attacked here, so I have to defend myself, so excuse that, haha. I'm not a slave to optimization (I already talked about me enjoying dual wielding the franciscas), but I'm merely expressing what I believe to be the general feeling of the community.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Melancholy Man

Melancholy Man

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2023
364
195
27
Greenhills
I'll admit I feel personally attacked here, so I have to defend myself, so excuse that, haha. I'm not a slave to optimization (I already talked about me enjoying dual wielding the franciscas), but I'm merely expressing what I believe to be the general feeling of the community.
Nah it's good, but you can't just think in terms of the first installment. Their other games did what they did, but better or in a successful way, there's nothing wrong with taking inspiration from a successful IP.
 

Boshe

Well-Known Member
Apr 4, 2022
149
131
32
You playing the game optimally is your choice.
It is your choice, but humans are nerve apes that make their choices based on a variety of different factors, as opposed to having a magical ability of sheer willpower to do and prefer everything they deem fit at the moment. Unless you balance these benefits into utter irrelevance, a decent amount of people would absolutely feel the pressure to play in a way the game and/or devs expect them to, even if they don't succumb to it. There's enough to gain, there's enough to lose and these devs and players believe this is a case where there's more to lose than to gain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tarnakus

Shrike675

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2021
818
541
They can be rebalanced and reworked, they don't have to be the same. In fact, the most interesting ability I've seen is Tail whip; it changes based on the type of tail you currently have, it's a shame that it doesn't scale. The guy that designed that move should get a lot more talking time during the weekly progress meeting during game design talks because he knows what he's doing.
Odds of that happening are a big ol zero, sorry. And on the subject of tail whack, it's been discussed that it'll get axed eventually.
 

Melancholy Man

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2023
364
195
27
Greenhills
It is your choice, but humans are nerve apes that make their choices based on a variety of different factors, as opposed to having a magical ability of sheer willpower to do and prefer everything they deem fit at the moment. Unless you balance these benefits into utter irrelevance, a decent amount of people would absolutely feel the pressure to play in a way the game and/or devs expect them to, even if they don't succumb to it. There's enough to gain, there's enough to lose and these devs and players believe this is a case where there's more to lose than to gain.
You're completely right if they want to go that path it's on them. I like fleshed-out interconnected mechanics; where ever you look it's a hallmark of successful titles to give the player tools or mechanics that serve 2-3 functions at a time. Things feel useful and purpose-fullied if they serve more than one function. I just don't see the benefit of stripping an interesting mechanic of its depth when it can simply be rebalanced or reworked better benefits to fit the new system. That's like saying that Fallout should have tossed perks & traits because it didn't do so well the first time, now it's an iconic staple of the series, and roleplaying genre, irremovable, even D&D has them. It just seems asinine to me and the reasons I'm getting make even less sense.
 

Boshe

Well-Known Member
Apr 4, 2022
149
131
32
You're completely right if they want to go that path it's on them. I like fleshed-out interconnected mechanics; where ever you look it's a hallmark of successful titles to give the player tools or mechanics that serve 2-3 functions at a time. Things feel useful and purpose-fullied if they serve more than one function. I just don't see the benefit of stripping an interesting mechanic of its depth when it can simply be rebalanced or reworked better benefits to fit the new system. That's like saying that Fallout should have tossed perks & traits because it didn't do so well the first time
No one is saying that Fallout perks are a detriment to the games. That's because for most (with a few exceptions like Rad Child and Atomic potentially making your character out to be some kind of mutant or a ghoul-lite, to name a few), their impact on the actual roleplay aspect is minimal and they don't give anything other than pure numbers and behind-the-scenes effects. You get to pick the ones you want, there's enough of them to avoid taking ones you feel wouldn't work for what you have in mind and their restrictions are rarely tied to anything that isn't arbitrary stats. They don't clash with your style anywhere near as much as racials. Balance is not an issue when you tie bonuses to what should be an aesthetic choice: making them strong is going to make both optimizers and non-optimizers (when they learn the difference between their playthrough and what they could be getting instead, provided the game has any difficulty to speak of, which it does) feel bad about not playing the meta and making them weak is just going to be an annoyance to the optimizers and no gain in depth to the non-optimizers who'd just skim over it. There is no mystical sweet-spot to it.


now it's an iconic staple of the series, and roleplaying genre, irremovable, even D&D has them. It just seems asinine to me and the reasons I'm getting make even less sense.
DnD racials are such a cancerous pustule on the body of its character creation that almost every 5e (and 3.5e, but my experience with it is slim) GM out there allows allocating racial stats however players see fit and WotC themselves are completely moving them away to backgrounds, which is something that is entirely customizable rules-as-written.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tarnakus

Melancholy Man

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2023
364
195
27
Greenhills
DnD racials are such a cancerous pustule on the body of its character creation that almost every 5e (and 3.5e, but my experience with it is slim) GM out there allows allocating racial stats however players see fit and WotC themselves are completely moving them away to backgrounds, which is something that is entirely customizable rules-as-written.
This right here proves my point, my guy. They don't have to be removed or stripped of depth, they can be retooled to fit the system of play.
their impact on the actual roleplay aspect is minimal and they don't give anything other than pure numbers and behind-the-scenes effects.
You and I both know that's BS, Classic Fallout(1, 2, and Tactics) and New Vegas use Perks and Traits to their utmost, don't be thrown uncredited slander.
They don't clash with your style anywhere near as much as racials. Balance is not an issue when you tie bonuses to what should be an aesthetic choice: making them strong is going to make both optimizers and non-optimizers (when they learn the difference between their playthrough and what they could be getting instead, provided the game has any difficulty to speak of, which it does) feel bad about not playing the meta and making them weak is just going to be an annoyance to the optimizers and no gain in depth to the non-optimizers who'd just skim over it. There is no mystical sweet-spot to it.
Thats the fear of missing out talking which is good in my experience since that encourages replays and multiple RPG Devs agree if they are to be believed by their GCD breakdowns of their design plans and that still doesn't matter if you really want to roleplay, it happens all the time in other games both big, small, AAA, AA, indie; at the end of the day ppl will play how they want regardless of incentives (they are there to give the mechanic substance); there's a reason gamers say "the true endgame are cosmetics".
 

Boshe

Well-Known Member
Apr 4, 2022
149
131
32
This right here proves my point, my guy. They don't have to be removed or stripped of depth, they can be retooled to fit the system of play.
In what way? You have racial stats be moved to a different thing altogether, this is antithetical to what you propose here.
You and I both know that's BS, Classic Fallout(1, 2, and Tactics) and New Vegas use Perks and Traits to their utmost, don't be thrown uncredited slander.
??? You've either missed my point entirely or haven't played either of those in a while.

I've used FNV as the benchmark here (and it's really not at all different from FO3 in this regard, so you cutting it out is disingenuous) and most of its perks are flat stat increases or are effects that help with combat and/or exploration. Only a short few (Lady Killer-esques, Terrifying Presence and there's like 6 extra lines overall from various perks in the DLCs) add anything to the roleplaying aspect itself and they are plagued with poor game design decisions (Lady Killer and the rest should've been traits, Terrifying Presence is just a funny perk that either achieves nothing with its lines or is downright detrimental).
Thats the fear of missing out talking which is in my experience since that encourages replays and multiple RPG Devs if they are to be believed by their GCD breakdowns of their design plans and that still doesn't matter if you really want to roleplay, it happens all the time in other games both big, small, AAA, AA, indie; at the end of the day ppl will play how they want regardless of incentives (they are there to give the mechanic substance); there's a reason gamers say "the true endgame are cosmetics".
Video game FOMO is a drastically different phenomenon from being pressured by having one's aesthetically resonating options being limited by suboptimal performance, not applicable to singleplayer games that have no temporary content nor would it add any significant replayability to a game where your choice of cosmetics is strongly dictated by sexual preferences. I'm not replaying a game as a gigantic minotaur just to be slightly better at wielding two axes if all I'm digging is being a foxgirl mage.
 

Melancholy Man

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2023
364
195
27
Greenhills
In what way? You have racial stats be moved to a different thing altogether, this is antithetical to what you propose here.
How is it antithetical? I've been saying that things can be reworked to fit in a new system of play, that's what they did instead of removing it or squashing the potential; they moved it somewhere else, they rebalanced the stats or feats. The team responsible for FF13 did same thing with FF7remake with its stagger system and a lot ppl didn't even realize they were playing what was essentially live-action FF13.
??? You've either missed my point entirely or haven't played either of those in a while.

I've used FNV as the benchmark here (and it's really not at all different from FO3 in this regard, so you cutting it out is disingenuous) and most of its perks are flat stat increases or are effects that help with combat and/or exploration. Only a short few (Lady Killer-esques, Terrifying Presence and there's like 6 extra lines overall from various perks in the DLCs) add anything to the roleplaying aspect itself and they are plagued with poor game design decisions (Lady Killer and the rest should've been traits, Terrifying Presence is just a funny perk that either achieves nothing with its lines or is downright detrimental).
Your taking the piss here and I could get into detail but I'm not in the mood to write an essay on how genius, how in-depth, or how hard FTNV goes so I'll just shoot a vid I trust to hopefully get my point across, you don't need to watch the whole thing just maybe the first 15-30mins if you have the time.
Video game FOMO is a drastically different phenomenon from being pressured by having one's aesthetically resonating options being limited by suboptimal performance, not applicable to singleplayer games that have no temporary content nor would it add any significant replayability to a game where your choice of cosmetics is strongly dictated by sexual preferences. I'm not replaying a game as a gigantic minotaur just to be slightly better at wielding two axes if all I'm digging is being a foxgirl mage.
I'm going to trust and listen to Industry Vets that have produced multiple successful and genre-defining games that have followed the stated principle than listen to a hundred ppl that have never produced one successful game on game design, sorry but agree to disagree.
 

WolframL

Well-Known Member
Feb 12, 2020
3,610
5,141
42
You know, you can keep talking in circles about this all you want but it doesn't matter. The devs have made their stance on TF-based mechanical advantages very clear (it's not happening) and no amount of 'I am so smart, listen to me talking about the games industry like some kind of big shot' is going to change that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tarnakus

Melancholy Man

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2023
364
195
27
Greenhills
Sounds like you took offense to that one, mate. I'm airing just my opinion out just like everyone else on the site. If they take notice its on them, it is what it is. Just like the changes that I've been talking about you can ignore them, you don't have to engage me or reply but you choose to because it either ticked you off, got you thinking or you found it interesting. This is the entire point of my posts.
 
Sounds like you took offense to that one, mate.
Wolf is a bit too nippy in a lot of situations, but right now I think it's justified.

Yes, people can just not engage with you and you are free to voice your opinions, these are things I preach myself, but if you're going to stand behind that, you should be doing your part to not shove said ideas down everyone else's throats at every single turn. Word blob posts, double posting, the frequency of the posting, you're not exactly making it easy for those of us who would rather overlook your posts to do so since I can't fresh the main forum page without seeing that you've already posted two more times, sometimes simultaneously in the same damn thread.

I get that your passionate about what you talk about, you wouldn't be acting this way if you weren't. And wanting to get people to think about things or have a dialogue is admirable, but this is not the best way to be going about this. It would be nice if you could ease off the gas there and let the forum breathe a bit, maybe slowing the posting down some and using less instigating wording.

Just something to consider.
 
Last edited: