Dual wield question

[Somnis]

Running a rogue type and tinkering with it, I hit something that mechanically does not make sense so I'm curious enough to drop by and ask.


Dual wielding currently requires two light weapons. I don't really see a reason for that in terms of balance simply because light weapons are comparable to the "one hand" weapons in stats.

Second bit is dual wielded is actually fairly common in history. Specifically in cultures that have dueling as a common event. The use of two small/light weapons was actually horribly uncommon unless circumstances forced the issue, what was far more common in all such cultures was the use of a full sized weapon as primary with a light weapon as secondary. Reason being lighter weapons didn't require functional ambidexterity to utilize in non dominant hands.

In circumstances of extended training and functional ambidexterity, two full sized weapons were used... because in most fights, reach is king; followed by speed and only surpassed by endurance.

This being a long winded foundation to ask - is there any chance of changing the code so the dual wield system doesn't check the primary for the light trait at minimum?

I would love to be able to use Ashe in a dual wield build, but can't without save editing which gives an annoying pop-up on load.

A full DW expansion could be pretty easy to justify as well. Get trained by really good fighters (like with Zo) so you get passive perks that alter the system.

Basic system allows a 1h primary and light secondary
Ambidexterity perk allows two 1h weapons
??? Perk allows the use of non polearms as primary
Having both allows dual wield 2h

I can't make any mental sense of polearms being dual wielded hence the exclusion, but in theory if you are stupidly strong there's no reason you couldn't use a greatsword in a single hand... anyway couldn't resist spitballing, but at the end of the day it's a question with a suggestion for viability tacked on.

So to restate and end with the appropriate mark

Is there any chance of getting to use one hand weapons as primary weapons in dual wield builds?

 

[WolframL]

No. Light-tagged weapons are specifically balanced around the fact that they can be dual-wielded (they're not the same as non-Light one handed weapons) and Balak, the guy who's responsible for this stuff, has been quite clear that you can have dual-wielding or the extra stat allocation of a non-Light weapon but not both. Case in point: Ashelander.

 

[zagzig]

To build on what Wolfram said, if you compare light and 1H weapons, 1H weapons clearly get a power edge. The highest damaging light weapon, the Corrupted Dawnsword, does 37 damage with significant defensive drawbacks. If Ashelander were a light weapon, she would be the most powerful light weapon by far and pretty much make any other light weapon obsolete.

 

[Somnis]

Main point wasn't to dual wield 1h, but to allow a 1h and light as the combination rather than two lights.

So for example Ashelander as primary and dawnsword (which is listed as light) as secondary.

As to lights being inherently weaker than 1h... not that I've seen. I used the wiki as reference and the upper tiers are about the same as far as I can tell. About 35 damage, with usually one or two support stats totalling 15-20 points. Only direct difference is lights don't tend to accuracy boosts.

To reiterate my point, right now now allowing a 1h primary severely restricts options for no real balance purpose that I can see (due to the similarity in stats) and does not make mechanical sense as arming sword/Dagger, katana/wakizashi, or to put it another way longsword/shortsword was the go to combination for duelists in virtually every culture in existence.

Everything else in the OP was spitballing and alters the balance, this doesn't, it just opens up options for the players. I want ashelander + something because I like the weapon thematically not because it's inherently stronger than the other options.

And to make the point even more bluntly since it was said ashelander is OP I'll list the weapons I was looking at anyway.

Ashelander
40 damage (crush/fire)
35 bonus stats (acc, Apen, sexy)
No special


Light weapons -

Dawnsword
35 damage (pen/holy)
30 bonus (all defense)
Special - grants deflection

Sanctified Gladius
35 damage (pen/holy)
25 bonus (crit/spell/Apen)
Special - can't use while corrupted

Cassias Gladius (which isn't on the wiki, but is damned good)

Throwing weapons (so no penalty to flying enemies)

Wing of Asira
20 damage (holy / pen)
15 bonus (acc/eva)
Disarm immune

Skypiercer
37 damage (storm/pen)
15 stats (acc/eva)

C petal
30 damage (holy/pen)
10 bonus (Apen/eva)
+50 Apen on any attack that crits


The upper tier of weapons are roughly on par with each other regardless of whether they are 1h or light, with the only major shift being thrown weapons which have accuracy boost enough to offset the offhand penalties... which by itself means a far more consistent damage output per attack.

All this would do is open primary weapon choices from around 20 options to closer to 40 without heavily impacting balance far as the numbers say.

1h weapons look about 10% stronger (ballpark) than light. in base theory that bonus gets halved because dual, but its more like 75% because offhand penalties...

So that's a 7% power boost... on what is otherwise low numbers.yay I go from dealing on average 80 damage to things my level to 85 damage... with no real shifts anywhere else.

Cause right now I'm running sanct / cassia, which eats anything demonic... and I'll point out fire doesn't do so hot (pun intended) against demons which are very very common at the level you get her at...

Long winded way of saying (and proving) your both wrong on all counts of balance.

 

[zagzig]

'roughly' is doing a lot of work there, and it's bold going "1h weapons are stronger" and "I have proven you both wrong on all counts".

Even your cherrypicked examples don't argue your point (listing the Sanctified Gladius's handicap as a special, then putting that up against the Ashelander like "see the light weapon has a special and the 1h weapon doesn't") You say the upper tier for 1H weapons is 'about 35', when the unique 1H's are at 45-40. The Blight Tendril at 45 is up there with some 2H uniques. Meanwhile the light weapons start at 37 with handicaps.

You conclusively demonstrate that 1H weapons get more supporting stats than light weapons, even after disingenuously adding them all to a stat pool like Ashelander's 20 armour penetration is equivalent to the Dawnsword boosting focus and mental resist. You list Ashelander's fire typing as a penalty while ignoring that crushing is the best damage type in the game. And you also ignore that the difference between 1H and light is roughly equivalent to the difference between 2H and 1H.

So, yeah, the weapons are balanced that way for a reason, and there would need to be a dramatic penalty before we're getting to use Eviscerate with Ashelander.

 

[valk42]

and to this i respond, i would prefer it nerfed into the ground with the light tag

 

[Somnis]

'roughly' is doing a lot of work there, and it's bold going "1h weapons are stronger" and "I have proven you both wrong on all counts".

Even your cherrypicked examples don't argue your point (listing the Sanctified Gladius's handicap as a special, then putting that up against the Ashelander like "see the light weapon has a special and the 1h weapon doesn't") You say the upper tier for 1H weapons is 'about 35', when the unique 1H's are at 45-40. The Blight Tendril at 45 is up there with some 2H uniques. Meanwhile the light weapons start at 37 with handicaps.

Roughly is doing work because I'm not listing every single weapon. You can't bitch about me using estimates then in the same statement say I'm "cherrypicking" when I give concrete stats.

Sanct isn't a penalty it's an alignment requirement. I was listing it not to make a point but to be thorough.

1h weapons high end damage tends to be about 40 points.
Light Damage high end trends to 35.
Since you brought up two Handel's no, those tend towards around 50 damage being very common, and a fair few at 55 and 60.
Bonus stats seem to be a few points lower than the damage.

so yes, i was wrong on my /estimates/ then disproved it with the numbers i gave including the supposedly overpowered Ashelander (which was included because of /you two/ commenting that it was OP compared to lights. hence why i did not include /any other/ 1h weapon as a discrete mention.

call it what you like, but yes, I did disprove (with actual numbers) that there is a substantial difference in power between the 1h and light categories. Also as to ashelander being op compared to the others... nope. Addressed that specifically too.

You conclusively demonstrate that 1H weapons get more supporting stats than light weapons, even after disingenuously adding them all to a stat pool like Ashelander's 20 armour penetration is equivalent to the Dawnsword boosting focus and mental resist. You list Ashelander's fire typing as a penalty while ignoring that crushing is the best damage type in the game. And you also ignore that the difference between 1H and light is roughly equivalent to the difference between 2H and 1H.

So, yeah, the weapons are balanced that way for a reason, and there would need to be a dramatic penalty before we're getting to use Eviscerate with Ashelander.

and this entire chunk is lies and assumptions such that i dont even need to break it up to rebut... but whatever.

Yep. approximately a 10% increase to damage and bonus stats (35 compared to 40) which is what i /said/ in the second post with the data.

just a straight lie, i listed out exactly what the total number was then what stats were in the pool. because not all stats are equal or useful to all builds so there is no analysis beyond the most broad that CAN be done on aggregate data. ignorance is no excuse for lying about people you know.

I am actually unaware of this because i have not dug into the damage calculations, and therefore did not comment about a damage type i dont know anything about. its my habit that if i dont have a basis for saying something... i dont say anything at all; perhaps you could learn from my example instead of making insane assumptions that border on actual lies, if not crossing that line entirely.

no, no its not. a 5 point difference in expected damage output between two classes is a world apart from a 10-20 point difference. to reiterate, the difference between a 1h and light is approximately 10%. the difference between a 1h and 2h is 20-50% increase in damage AND bonus stats. which i will note interestingly enough is also the amount of stats /lost/ when using a light weapon in offhand.

now, since the lies and assumptions have been addressed in an acceptable fashion i can safely say that the question is addressed by the simple fact that "the devs have already considered such and do not wish to". which is what i figured would be the answer anyway.

i simply did a quick data analysis because i like doing stuff like that and its good practice. add that to the fact it may actually change the answer (it has done so from time to time), theres no harm in doing it.

and on the topic of "overall balance" i will also simply point out that unless gear has the specific "Offhand" tag, it gets nerfed to shit by using it as an offhand weapon. everything takes a massive hit to its stats, and then it takes a 10 point accuracy penalty on top of the rest. which means that "1h weapons are too strong" is an objectively bad argument when you have a tailored mechanic to address /exactly that issue/ already in place.

does not mean the answer changes because most people are very stubborn about such things and dislike having holes poked in their shit, even if its for a good reason and especially if the argument is a good one.


and i'll end on this, no point to continuing to respond or watch the thread as either it will be considered or not... and i dont care to waste a bunch of time doing responses like this when they are likely beyond pointless as pretty much everything i said will likely be disregarded and/or misread (to be charitable) as you did for my second message.

and to this i respond, i would prefer it nerfed into the ground with the light tag

kind of to this - I would prefer more /options/ and consistency with the systems rather than the distinction that makes no sense as is beyond a balance issue which is reasonably easily addressed without altering the weapon itself, and therefore not affecting all the people who for example love using ashelander in spellsword or tank builds.

 

[Somnis]

Since you brought up two Handel's no, those tend towards around 50 damage being very common, and a fair few at 55 and 60.

hate the fact i cant find an edit button... two HANDER not handel. damned phone.

 

[Ace Hangman]

hate the fact i cant find an edit button... two HANDER not handel. damned phone.

The Edit option will appear along the bottom of the post, where REPORT is usually found.

 

[rkinght5]

and to this i respond, i would prefer it nerfed into the ground with the light tag

This 100%. I don't really care about game balance, I want both weapons because it's cool in the narrative. I know this opinion isn't true for everyone, but it would be cool to have one be weaker so the PC can enjoy both additions to the story instead of having to choose