Balancing issues with COC2
- Thread starter Kius
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Let's start with the basic bitch class of Fighter, it really needs some kind of nerf because not only can you tank whole lotta damage but you can also dish it back out at insane rates. It's the only class that gives you an AOE basically at the start. and with Cait you're basically immortal. Next up is Thief, a class that should have the highest DPS but ranks third because fighter needs to be nerfed and Black Mages because half the items in the game give a magic boost. I haven't really messed around with this class a lot (only having done half playthroughs with it) but from what I gather it's just a worse Fighter with a gimmick that you rarely use. Let's do Charmer now because I don't want to go in order, To be honest I've never actually played charmer because I hate being really weak in the early game but from what I've gathered, it's really broken, but in a way that makes sense, especially since you're mostly fighting lust-addled barely sentient beings, living plants, or demons. Let's do White Mage here because there's not much to say about it. White Mage is probably the most boring class to play as all you do is spam one ability and use nothing else. Black Mage, the class you expect to be the strongest of them, and while it certainly is strong, it takes way to long to actually get anything done with it, expect to grind for an hour before doing any amount of damage with this class, and be getting your ultimate before fighting the kitsune village. But once you do get going, it makes the game exceptionally easy, while this class has no effective one of one spells it's does have both Fireball and Arc cannon, which almost guarantees you'll win any encounter against more than one enemy in two turns, you'll also never change gear after getting the witches corset and two mages wands (besides maybe equipping a metal wand). I think that's it then. Overall the only class that needs to be buffed is Thief. The classes that need to be nerfed are Fighter and Black Mage. And the only class that needs a complete overhaul is White Mage.
Charmer has been stated multiple times to be OP, because of how resolve damage worked/works. (Crits tend to off those easily after a single Splendor Song as Resolve is lesser than HP the majority of the time)
There's already been a nerf or two to resolve damage as a whole, but I can still nuke... granted that's because I'm using a resolve nuke set how I should be using it to begin with. Which I prefer way over Charmer being nerfed to the point it's shit again.
There's already been a nerf or two to resolve damage as a whole, but I can still nuke... granted that's because I'm using a resolve nuke set how I should be using it to begin with. Which I prefer way over Charmer being nerfed to the point it's shit again.
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Charmers can nuke encounters... right up until the point that you run into enemies that no-sell erotic attacks at which point you're suddenly looking pretty silly and hopefully have a backup option to contribute to fights. There's a couple entire dungeons where Resolve damage is pretty much useless, balancing out the ones where it lets you steamroll encounters.
Yeah, my Charmer hero steamrolls enemy encounters 9/10 by shaking her tits at them, and then for the 10th encounter she runs screaming because that stupid bird doesn't want to fuck her. So there's a balance of sorts.
If they do nerf the Charmer further I'd hope they bolster the damage dealing Charmer abilities a bit to compensate. Dischord and Grand Finale are alright, but you won't be winning fights on your own. Though high Leadership can help you support your companions who actually carry a weapon.
If they do nerf the Charmer further I'd hope they bolster the damage dealing Charmer abilities a bit to compensate. Dischord and Grand Finale are alright, but you won't be winning fights on your own. Though high Leadership can help you support your companions who actually carry a weapon.
So for some reason, the second post of this thread was awaiting moderation, so there should be additional context that you guys might have been missing
If you're getting better damage output from a Warrior than a Thief, you are probably Doing It Wrong. If you're not taking advantage of Twist The Knife, you are definitely Doing It Wrong.
White Mage has plenty of extremely useful abilities, they can do lots more than just spam heal. Most of their offensive abilities do (surprise surprise) Holy damage, which makes them very useful against a lot of enemies.
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Warrior, yeah, pretty much. It makes sense, if you want to be good at fighting, you become a Warrior. I will say that since being a Warrior causes you to prioritise physical abilities you will often lose out on the benefits of the mental stats - Cunning boosts Magic Resistance, Willpower boosts Mental Resistance, Presence boosts Leadership. A Warrior can be heavily armoured (not necessarily, warrior also supports agile dual wielders), they have squishy brains and are weak against fireballs.
Thief, as it's been said above if you're not getting high single target DPS (handy for taking the Cultist Temptress out of a group in the Rift) out of it you might be missing something. You should be pumping Agility and Cunning to maximise crits, targeting debuffed enemies to take advantage of Twist The Knife (also use thief abilities to inflict debuffs), and at later levels you get Sneak Attack which combines with anything that gives you Obscurement to do massive single target damage. But, squishy bodies.
White Mage gets access to a lot of stuff you don't seem to be using. My White Mage/Warrior is running Charge Weapon, Blessing, and Smite Evil to rain down martial holy damage in great quantities. Alternatively, you can use abilities like Celestial Smite and White Fire to use your Willpower to shoot holy fire out of your hands, Entropic Winds to AOE/debuff, and of course healing. An optimised White Mage probably has at least one healing ability (plus Revive at level 5) but there are perfectly valid builds without it.
Black Mage, yeah. At early levels you should be investing in Presence to buff your summons, they're going to get you over a lot of hurdles. That being said, please don't nerf, squishy wizards go down hard against single targets with enough meat to survive the opening Grease/Fireball. Unless you sacrifice Presence or Cunning to build Toughness, certain enemies are going to pound you into the dirt. They'll also win the fight handily.
Charmer's been covered, you win against anything that wants to fuck you and lose against wild animals and constructs. You can also run a viable support set as a Charmer, that plus your high Presence can buff your companions enough to keep you alive against non-horny opponents. There's probably a decent run as a Charmer who doesn't use the Tease attack, to be done by someone who doesn't already have too many mains.
Resolve damage is inherently broken (and for the sake of my Charmer hero I hope it always will be), but the other four classes are pretty well balanced. Also, don't forget, if you're not having fun as one class you can mix and match until you reach the playstyle you're looking for. And if you're like me you can have one main in every class and an archer using Leorah's talents to boot.
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I never felt like anything is truly unbalanced. If the song of splendor is OP, you can also run it with your thief. There is also nothing from stopping a thief from using cleave.
Am I missing something here?
Maybe some abilities are more useful than others. IMO there are enough useful abilities for a varied playstyle. That is before we get to the companions.
My last champ ran brienne+bimbo azzy (buzzy?), while I used mainly grease or allure.
Grease to burn the herretics
Allure to fuck the herretics
Good times.
Am I missing something here?
Maybe some abilities are more useful than others. IMO there are enough useful abilities for a varied playstyle. That is before we get to the companions.
My last champ ran brienne+bimbo azzy (buzzy?), while I used mainly grease or allure.
Grease to burn the herretics
Allure to fuck the herretics
Good times.
Well, there are the class passives and the fact that not everyone has a species/class/background combination that lets them put points into every attribute so that they have the stats to back up the style they are attempting. Your white mage paladin is pretty screwed if they try to melee without being able to put points into strength, I'd wager.
The Training>Attributes option allows you to reallocate stats without regard to the limitations your particular Champion may have in terms of leveling up stats.
Changing your class to one that does is totally possible, if much more expensive than simply reallocating stats, at least.
It is indeed not a huge deal. I run a white mage who mostly does damage and never bothered to reclass to black mage. Get through all of the content just fine.
Thief's passive is extremely good for dealing damage (another reason why the OP's contention re:Thief is one that I can't agree with), which is one of the reasons why it's such a good class, but a damage Warrior does just fine too.
The warrior is well balanced and is the one that you can get more variations in my opinion, if you go defensive with a primary weapon and a shield you will be immune to critics but you will not be as harmful as you would be with a longweapon that lacks a bit of precision. The only thing I would like is for them to add more weapons and abilities for players who use double-grip
Thief is fine, you have to play with your head, the only thing I have noticed is that even with completely optimized evasion, I receive more hits than I would like or maybe there are too many enemies that use skills that do not aim at evasion.
Black magician I don't know if I would like to change something because what is the tightrope of turning it into something useless or beastly but when I played it basically as a crystal cannon that, you depend too much on your allies for your threat level don't get up too much. At the moment the invocations are not much except for the frozen lizard whose name I do not remember.
White Magician: Nothing to say because unlike the rest of the people who orientate him to the offense with this class I play it between a mixture of healer and Charmer see healing and buff skills for the team oriented completely to work as a team, Agilty ; Toughness and presence to resist a lot in addition to a shield to be immune to critics
The Charmer this OP will simply have difficulties with characters immune to lust, but you can still attack them to damage resolve them with other abilities, I won waves of enemies by myself in just two turns, the only way I like to play is like cheerleader. basically like the white wizard I mentioned earlier.
Thief is fine, you have to play with your head, the only thing I have noticed is that even with completely optimized evasion, I receive more hits than I would like or maybe there are too many enemies that use skills that do not aim at evasion.
Black magician I don't know if I would like to change something because what is the tightrope of turning it into something useless or beastly but when I played it basically as a crystal cannon that, you depend too much on your allies for your threat level don't get up too much. At the moment the invocations are not much except for the frozen lizard whose name I do not remember.
White Magician: Nothing to say because unlike the rest of the people who orientate him to the offense with this class I play it between a mixture of healer and Charmer see healing and buff skills for the team oriented completely to work as a team, Agilty ; Toughness and presence to resist a lot in addition to a shield to be immune to critics
The Charmer this OP will simply have difficulties with characters immune to lust, but you can still attack them to damage resolve them with other abilities, I won waves of enemies by myself in just two turns, the only way I like to play is like cheerleader. basically like the white wizard I mentioned earlier.
Warrior is probably the most balanced class, it has lots of good powers, great survivability and the best ultimate that you can and should slot in every class. Only really loses to resolve damage which in the current late game can one-shot you with a couple of lucky crits, but hey that's the weakness of most classes.
Thief is a weird one, the class itself is broken specifically its passives and agility being its main stat. Twist the knife is free damage and in this game going first is essential for most nuke playstyles. The best thing about thief class is that you have a lot of weird builds you can do including hybrid ones with magic and resolve damage. The most broken thing about the class are its powers. When I say broken I mean they are trash, you would think assassinate would come close to doing the most damage in the game then you try it , cry a bit, and remember it can't crit while being the ultimate for the class most likely to build a lot of it. Special mentions to the level 6 powers though, deadly shadows is a great nuke, I would use it more often if it was not an encounter. I see some potential in sneak attack, it could become a great gimmick/combo if new thief powers are added or the old powers get reworked, but its combo damage is eclipsed by powers that only take one turn.
TLDR: if you want to use thief then don't use its powers.
Disclaimer: this is for late game min-maxing, have fun abusing garrote in the early to mid-game.
Black mage is one where I've bounced around different builds. I think the class is leaning towards op slightly. I noticed this after I went back to old reliable (Grease + Fireball(s)). Now if you build presence and have 2 of the three companions and summons that know fireball and you will burn everything to the ground. Even that fucking bird is just paper to you. The thing I think is broken (in a bad way), is using summons when you spec presence. Some of your summons will usually start first the next turn even with max agility and nonheavy clothing. And because you are paper and evasion (just seems to not work most of the time you want it to) is not a reliable defense stat, you and your glass cannon team are gonna take some Ls. While I have my gripes about the turn system and it favoring only the person with the highest initiative, I think summons at least not take up a turn so that an enemy with 0 initiative does not get to attack before you.
TLDR: Grease + Fireball + Fireball + Fireball + burn dot but also OHKOed by Chimeras
White Mage I think is probably the second best class in the game but man if you decide you want to play the bard playstyle with summons, enjoying spending 2-4 turns per encounter. Blessing is a broken skill and so is great heal. This and charmer are what make dark difficulty a joke. Not only does it have the best supportive powers, it has some of the highest damaging powers in the game for when you decided you don't want to be a heal bot.
Charmer... Almost everything has already been said.
Some last minute stuff
The recent buff to summons made them usable and the new summons powers made them even better, I think the biggest change was to presence. It's probably the best stat in the game now that it has defensive capabilities. Guess which class uses all the bonuses from presence effectively, that's right, charmers got a buff. A buff that helps them survive the scariest thing late game. Any class that can build presence should, I'm talking to you Black mages that refuse to use summons and just dump into cunning. Your summon is doing close to the same damage you would get if you got a crit except it's always doing that damage and it can tank some attacks and you don't get rekt by resolve damage.
Thief is a weird one, the class itself is broken specifically its passives and agility being its main stat. Twist the knife is free damage and in this game going first is essential for most nuke playstyles. The best thing about thief class is that you have a lot of weird builds you can do including hybrid ones with magic and resolve damage. The most broken thing about the class are its powers. When I say broken I mean they are trash, you would think assassinate would come close to doing the most damage in the game then you try it , cry a bit, and remember it can't crit while being the ultimate for the class most likely to build a lot of it. Special mentions to the level 6 powers though, deadly shadows is a great nuke, I would use it more often if it was not an encounter. I see some potential in sneak attack, it could become a great gimmick/combo if new thief powers are added or the old powers get reworked, but its combo damage is eclipsed by powers that only take one turn.
TLDR: if you want to use thief then don't use its powers.
Disclaimer: this is for late game min-maxing, have fun abusing garrote in the early to mid-game.
Black mage is one where I've bounced around different builds. I think the class is leaning towards op slightly. I noticed this after I went back to old reliable (Grease + Fireball(s)). Now if you build presence and have 2 of the three companions and summons that know fireball and you will burn everything to the ground. Even that fucking bird is just paper to you. The thing I think is broken (in a bad way), is using summons when you spec presence. Some of your summons will usually start first the next turn even with max agility and nonheavy clothing. And because you are paper and evasion (just seems to not work most of the time you want it to) is not a reliable defense stat, you and your glass cannon team are gonna take some Ls. While I have my gripes about the turn system and it favoring only the person with the highest initiative, I think summons at least not take up a turn so that an enemy with 0 initiative does not get to attack before you.
TLDR: Grease + Fireball + Fireball + Fireball + burn dot but also OHKOed by Chimeras
White Mage I think is probably the second best class in the game but man if you decide you want to play the bard playstyle with summons, enjoying spending 2-4 turns per encounter. Blessing is a broken skill and so is great heal. This and charmer are what make dark difficulty a joke. Not only does it have the best supportive powers, it has some of the highest damaging powers in the game for when you decided you don't want to be a heal bot.
Charmer... Almost everything has already been said.
Some last minute stuff
The recent buff to summons made them usable and the new summons powers made them even better, I think the biggest change was to presence. It's probably the best stat in the game now that it has defensive capabilities. Guess which class uses all the bonuses from presence effectively, that's right, charmers got a buff. A buff that helps them survive the scariest thing late game. Any class that can build presence should, I'm talking to you Black mages that refuse to use summons and just dump into cunning. Your summon is doing close to the same damage you would get if you got a crit except it's always doing that damage and it can tank some attacks and you don't get rekt by resolve damage.
Definitely. My Thief primarily just uses powers learned from Leorah and she's one-shotting foes in the Rift by a country mile.
The Thief class is OP as shit. Especially the passives.
I wanted to build a muscle magic and pure mage build, but I feel like the two mage classes don't got the necessary power.
Also,
Why do warriors miss so often? It's the main reason I don't use that class. Motherfuckers can't hit the broadside of a barn.
I wanted to build a muscle magic and pure mage build, but I feel like the two mage classes don't got the necessary power.
Also,
Why do warriors miss so often? It's the main reason I don't use that class. Motherfuckers can't hit the broadside of a barn.
I actually don't agree that the thief skills are bad. I have a build that is all Strength, Agility, and Cunning and uses the Bessy Mauler and it's pretty devistatingly good. Assassinate, Dirty Trick, and the auto crit ability mean I one shot just about everything I set my eyes on. On top of that, his dodge is good and obscurement makes it so he's rarely the one who gets targeted anyway.
In contrast, though my heavy weapon warrior is heavily armored, he gets messed up by magic, tease, and doesn't do nearly the damage of the thief. Haven't been able to figure out if it's due to the weapon or what, but he's consistently my slowest and grindiest character despite having maxed Strength, Agility, and Toughness. Also, buff spells like Bless and what not don't seem to stack well with some abilities, but do others. It's odd.
In contrast, though my heavy weapon warrior is heavily armored, he gets messed up by magic, tease, and doesn't do nearly the damage of the thief. Haven't been able to figure out if it's due to the weapon or what, but he's consistently my slowest and grindiest character despite having maxed Strength, Agility, and Toughness. Also, buff spells like Bless and what not don't seem to stack well with some abilities, but do others. It's odd.
I think I'm playing wrong, because on any difficulty higher than easy, 4/5 just get me mukked.
A heavy armor sword-and-board Fighter is great to start with, until the enemy uses lust-based attacks. Had to swap to thief.
I dont understand the point of playing whitemage. It's just so boring to sit back and buff the party. But smite has let me do some seriously dumb damage.
Black mage sits at a perfect glass cannon. With setup, I can burn through health bars. But oh my god, do I need to have a tank.
Thief is my happy place. Twist the knife combined with allies that do status effects to "prime" enemies.
Charmer is just... OP. If I have Cait or Ryn to heal me, the fight is over.
So basically, I think Fighter and Charmer are the strongest classes, one is only countered by immune enemies, the other is countered by enemies that dont fight as normal.
But I feel, on the whole, the classes have enough give-and-take to be balanced at higher difficulties.
But it is DEFINITELY gear dependent. You will see a sharp decrease in effectiveness if you dont gear up for your class.
A heavy armor sword-and-board Fighter is great to start with, until the enemy uses lust-based attacks. Had to swap to thief.
I dont understand the point of playing whitemage. It's just so boring to sit back and buff the party. But smite has let me do some seriously dumb damage.
Black mage sits at a perfect glass cannon. With setup, I can burn through health bars. But oh my god, do I need to have a tank.
Thief is my happy place. Twist the knife combined with allies that do status effects to "prime" enemies.
Charmer is just... OP. If I have Cait or Ryn to heal me, the fight is over.
So basically, I think Fighter and Charmer are the strongest classes, one is only countered by immune enemies, the other is countered by enemies that dont fight as normal.
But I feel, on the whole, the classes have enough give-and-take to be balanced at higher difficulties.
But it is DEFINITELY gear dependent. You will see a sharp decrease in effectiveness if you dont gear up for your class.
Whenever I played warrior, I maxed strength, toughness, and agility. But I still missed way too often.
I used Galons Griefmaker back when I was a warrior. I also tried the Scythe and the Swift sword out. I even tried some sanctified gladius and shield work.
Armor was either scale, plate, or lamellar.
Hmm, I'm unsure as to why you would be unable to hit the majority of the time. As you said previously, with max Agility you'd already have a decent chance to hit (with the Accuracy bonus gained from Agility level ups), and your weapon doesn't have negative Accuracy.
The only suggestions I'd really be able to offer for armor / gear would be switching up the Helmet slot for the Wide-brimmed Hat, and switch out to the Lucky Strike ring.
Aside from that, with regards to weapons, most Two-Handed weapons don't offer any accuracy bonus, and often actually result in negative Accuracy - however, if you still want Two-Handed weapon game-play, I believe there is the Swift Sword - which has a decent chunk of Accuracy bonus (or alternatively the Pike, which has a moderate bonus).
You can search for more Accuracy related articles here.
Yup, I did notice that about the scythe. But I still missed fairly often with the other weapons I tried.
Maybe I'm gassing it up. I remember missing an attack maybe once a fight, sometimes twice. It didn't happen all the time. But it happened enough were I thought it'd be better to simply switch classes.
Every piece of equipment with the Heavy flag decreases your initiative by 5, so if you're clad in nothing but heavy armor, you're going last, regardless of your agility.
That was pretty much one of my builds until the level cap was raised, minus assassinate. The problem I had with it was that Bessy made me slower, crit less and I was actually missing attacks (I'm surprised how much 5 accuracy makes a difference) which would lead to some of my deaths in the rift. Also, obscurement just does not work the way you think it should. I'm was always topping the threat meter with it on and some of the skills that apply it like deadly shadows heavily increase my threat. It annoys me how counterintuitive some of the skills are? The only real benefit of having obscurement on things like deadly shadows(which already staggers for 3 turns) is so that you can then use sneak attack to discard the buff for extra damage. A way to fix this is to have obscurement proc before your damage and if it is actually coded that way, then obscurement does not do its job well enough and should reduce threat gained further. Even having the tanky champions generate more threat or having a cap on threat gained from damage could go a long way but that's more for other classes with little to no threat management. Funny enough my playstyle revolved around playing the "tank", since your character has better ways to recover hp after the battle. I also favored armor and ward rather than all in on evasion, being able to survive 2-3 hits is better than the enemy getting a lucky hit. The last thing I wanted to add was that the damage for the thief's powers became lackluster when the new level cap was released and you take their recharge time into account. Even back then dirty trick would usually do more damage than assassinate.
One caveat I forgot to mention is that there are items like thief ring(i forgot what it's called) that I found some success with along with obscurement, and by success I mean I was around the same threat level as my companions but that at least helps spread the damage equally across your team.