Another Way for Elosa Ritual Request

[PalletTown]

Please let there be another way to do the Elosa ritual in the quest Over Troubled Waters that doesn't require two stat checks. I just think it unfairly and arbitrarily punishes certain builds. I cannot think of another example of a part of CoC II that was gated in such a way. Sure, some different dialogue or different options to tackle a problem, but not outright barring the PC from doing something.

 

[Euthanize]

Given how relatively painless it is to respec I'm personally open to the idea of locking specific builds out of specific content as long as such content was uniformly distributed and made thematic sense; I do think the design in this specific case is a bit awkward, though. Because neither of the two stats being checked are the stat that's relevant to the reward for the stat check, it's really more of a 3 stat check (since only PCs with willpower and cunning can access the reward, and only PCs with presence will use it). This is not punishing some builds as much as it is locking the reward behind either one specific build (or at least builds within one drink's proximity of it) or forcing a respec.

From a gameplay optimization standpoint that wouldn't be as big a deal if it was a summon reward that demanded the PC spec in a way that a summoner would be, but that's not what's going on here. Since the spell-charm split and stat change in 0.7.33 the cunning/willpower/presence stat spread has been rendered more or less obsolete; dedicated summoners now have access to "spells" (charms) that scale on the same stat as their summon, so no longer have any additional need for willpower. Tank builds that might want a summon option by virtue of being heavily presence/leadership invested already don't need cunning, and are now actively penalized for taking it by the change to make cunning reduce base threat. Burst/nuke and buffbot PCs already had very little reason to invest in presense over agility, and taking away the HP from presense while leaving the initiative on agility (which is the reason these builds want it, the accuracy is secondary) only reinforces that.

This might just be the latest chapter in the ongoing design confusion about what, exactly, the Black Mage class (the one that nudges the player toward suboptimal cunning/willpower/presence investment) is for, since thief can do more damage with spells and charmer with summons. In the meantime I think some "raise-[stat]-to-match-[other stat]" or "maximize [stat] for dialogue and quest purposes" wearables suddenly turning up in kohaku's warehouse etc would be a relatively painless bandaid to implement.

 

[LeDoraggo]

"The Devs do not concern themselves with the opinion of non-Black Mage players"

 

[Charity]

"The Devs do not concern themselves with the opinion of non-Black Mage players"

View attachment 39891

Certain underwater dungeon with 2 (or was it 3) CUNNING check wich is not something pure Black Mage will have anyway (or anyone who aren't pure Thief). Even Spellblade whp permanently under Cunning achocol... Until they start making Juice and don't use Cunning stat at all lol.

 

[LeDoraggo]

Certain underwater dungeon with 2 (or was it 3) CUNNING check wich is not something pure Black Mage will have anyway (or anyone who aren't pure Thief). Even Spellblade whp permanently under Cunning achocol... Until they start making Juice and don't use Cunning stat at all lol.

"The Devs are aware that Cunning is not the only stat in the game, but choose to ignore said fact"

 

[Charity]

Okay I kinda did in yesterday and now checked wiki and

Why. It's. Always. Cunning.

It seems so artificial atp. Juiced is just BETTER than Cunning Maxed. Where is 0 reason to use Stat Max, BUT for those checks. Pure Black Mage and Thief? Okay I see it. Never played bard but they migh have Cunning spec too?

Warrior and White Mages tho? Or some sorta spellblade who always see Cunning as trash stat since alcohol and then Juice exist. And you need Cunning to basicaly do WHOLE ritual and Willpower, actual magic aligned stat is only used in Binding? And being Mage half CUNNING needed? Actually wat is this.

Dangeon that I mentioned had Cunning checks cuz it had TRAPS. Not magic related things.
I would love to hear how Cunning of all stats help with whole ritual BUT binding.

 

[Lostname475]

Cunning is kinda used as an intellignece stat

 

[PalletTown]

I checked. It's an actual cunning stat check not a cunning personality check. Circlet of Clarity does not work. Seriously?!

In order to pass the check would require stat switching which is just ehhhhh and really immersion breaking.

 

[Nino]

I mean it's an elemental that you have to be able to summon through magic and then bind it to yourself. Why the hell wouldn't it require the in-universe aptitude to do so? Not everything has to be accessible to everyone in an open game this massive. That's like asking for Crystal Soul Spear to be available for players with no Int stat.

 

[PalletTown]

I mean it's an elemental that you have to be able to summon through magic and then bind it to yourself. Why the hell wouldn't it require the in-universe aptitude to do so? Not everything has to be accessible to everyone in an open game this massive. That's like asking for Crystal Soul Spear to be available for players with no Int stat.

Counterpoint: This is not Dark Souls. Dark Souls is designed with that in mind. In CoC II there is literally not another instance where a PC was prevented from accessing a portion of the content. Every other stat check was a one stat check which can be mitigated through the drink system. This stat check is a two stat check which just arbitrarily punishes some builds.

 

[Nino]

In CoC II there is literally not another instance where a PC was prevented from accessing a portion of the content.

This is just flat out wrong, every decision that locks you into one path over the other are effectively a way to prevent the player from accessing everything. And both games are RPG's, so the dismissal of the comparison isn't as valid as you phrase it to be.

 

[PalletTown]

This is just flat out wrong, every decision that locks you into one path over the other are effectively a way to prevent the player from accessing everything. And both games are RPG's, so the dismissal of the comparison isn't as valid as you phrase it to be.

Let me rephrase. In CoC II there are instances where you get the option to choose A or B where choosing one will exclude the other. There have not been instances where you can't access A due to stat requirements.

In more concrete terms, the game has instances like choosing Miko or Mai. Choose Miko excludes content with Mai. The game, however, does not prevent you from being able to choose either due to insufficient toughness.

Also, while Dark Souls and CoC II due have a vague connection due to sharing same broad tent genre of RPG does not mean that comparisons to each other are valid either.

 

[Nino]

Let me rephrase. In CoC II there are instances where you get the option to choose A or B where choosing one will exclude the other. There have not been instances where you can't access A due to stat requirements.

In more concrete terms, the game has instances like choosing Miko or Mai. Choose Miko excludes content with Mai. The game, however, does not prevent you from being able to choose either due to insufficient toughness.

Also, while Dark Souls and CoC II due have a vague connection due to sharing same broad tent genre of RPG does not mean that comparisons to each other are valid either.

You're right that it is a very odd comparison but the meaning behind it is true: it's normal for an rpg to gate tools and powers behind stat investments i.e. stat requirements. And from what I can see (her wiki hasn't been made yet, just the fact that she's a summon you get from the quest) she counts as one of those.

 

[Lostname475]

Its weird that there is literally 0 other content gated like this though. Especially since many builds that can access her e.g. dps mages can access her while leadership focused builds have a much harder time of it as they usually don't invest in willpower and cunning.

 

[Nino]

You're both right that it's weird to have a standout. I'm not calling you liars, but I am both curious and skeptical about there being no other stat requirements...

 

[Lostname475]

You can check it. There is literally no other content gated behind a double stat check. single stat checks can be done via boons and are reasonably common, but this is the only example of a check that needs 2 stats

 

[Nino]

You can check it. There is literally no other content gated behind a double stat check. single stat checks can be done via boons and are reasonably common, but this is the only example of a check that needs 2 stats

Well hold on now, double stat check is moving the goal post, we were just talking about having a stat check. Suddenly specifying the difference at the last second doesn't magically validate the previous claims.

 

[Lostname475]

No we weren't, we were talking about the fact that single stat checks can always be passed with boons so it doesn't lock any content and how it's weird to introduce double stat checks that do lock content for some builds. I never claimed 0 stat checks, only that 0 content had previously been locked for some builds

 

[PalletTown]

You're both right that it's weird to have a standout. I'm not calling you liars, but I am both curious and skeptical about there being no other stat requirements...

It's cool.

Let me specify. There are stat requirements all over the place in CoC II. However, these stat requirements are singular. It seems our disagreement may have come from the result of a misunderstanding.

If something required the toughness stat to pass the check then even characters that do not have that as a stat could drink Spiced Wine from Garth's to temp Max toughness to go through that check. This is the same for all other stat check.

The problem with the Elosa, is that it requires two simultaneous stat checks. If your build lacks both Cunning and Willpower, then there is no way (outside of changing your stats through training) to get both stats even on a temporary basis.

It gets even more ridiculous, since through the Secutor set, you can temp max out 5 stats out of 6, but there is still no way to max out Willpower and Cunning at the same time if you do not possess 1.

Additionally, most cunning checks are actually cunning personality checks (which you can gain through either high cunning or circlet of clarity). The Elosa ritual is a pure stat check.

This is not to say that I think there shouldn't be any hoops to jump through for Elosa. One suggestion I had as an alternative is that Juice would allow you to complete the ritual. It's a bit out of the way to get, require some out of the box thinking, and it thematically makes sense. Or make the cunning stat check a cunning personality check.

 

[Nino]

edit: @lostname
okay dude

 

[Nino]

It's cool.

Let me specify. There are stat requirements all over the place in CoC II. However, these stat requirements are singular. It seems our disagreement may have come from the result of a misunderstanding.

If something required the toughness stat to pass the check then even characters that do not have that as a stat could drink Spiced Wine from Garth's to temp Max toughness to go through that check. This is the same for all other stat check.

The problem with the Elosa, is that it requires two simultaneous stat checks. If your build lacks both Cunning and Willpower, then there is no way (outside of changing your stats through training) to get both stats even on a temporary basis.

It gets even more ridiculous, since through the Secutor set, you can temp max out 5 stats out of 6, but there is still no way to max out Willpower and Cunning at the same time if you do not possess 1.

Additionally, most cunning checks are actually cunning personality checks (which you can gain through either high cunning or circlet of clarity). The Elosa ritual is a pure stat check.

This is not to say that I think there shouldn't be any hoops to jump through for Elosa. One suggestion I had as an alternative is that Juice would allow you to complete the ritual. It's a bit out of the way to get, require some out of the box thinking, and it thematically makes sense. Or make the cunning stat check a cunning personality check.

I mean at the end of the day, temporarily respeccing stats for checks are not that egregious, especially when they only cost the one standard currency and not any additional special item. I never knew about cheesing checks with a potion(essentially what those drinks are in practice) and I don't like it from a designer perspective because that's subversion. That said, this double check is, at worst, a slightly more expensive (and in-game two days since I think each respec takes one full day to complete) cheese instead. Just pump one of the stats and then drink for the other and then reset when finished.

 

[PalletTown]

I mean at the end of the day, temporarily respeccing stats for checks are not that egregious, especially when they only cost the one standard currency and not any additional special item. I never knew about cheesing checks with a potion(essentially what those drinks are in practice) and I don't like it from a designer perspective because that's subversion. That said, this double check is, at worst, a slightly more expensive (and in-game two days since I think each respec takes one full day to complete) cheese instead. Just pump one of the stats and then drink for the other and then reset when finished.

Both myself and Lostname475 acknowledge that. It feels incredibly "gamey" in a way CoC II has not before.

I don't think it's too much of an ask to have an additional method.

 

[Nino]

I think it's getting in the nitpicky/entitled category to not just use that one extra step of respeccing one of the two stats, then reverting after the quest step.

 

[PalletTown]

I think it's getting in the nitpicky/entitled category to not just use that one extra step of respeccing one of the two stats, then reverting after the quest step.

Really, a personal attack.

 

[Nino]

It's not, please don't take it personally. I am not calling you entitled.