Word Choice

Discussion in 'Corruption of Champions II' started by Monster Milk, Jun 27, 2018.

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  1. Monster Milk

    Monster Milk New Member

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    Sorry to be nitpicky, but I was a bit chagrined to see CoC2 use the word "Shemale" used in a few places

    As an actual person with mixed bits, I assure you this is as upsetting to see as the word f*ggot is to gay men.

    It would be highly appreciated if the term transgirl or transwoman was used instead.

    Thank you for your consideration
     
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  2. Monster Milk

    Monster Milk New Member

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    Just realized I posted this in the wrong damn place
    Sorry about that

    but uh if a mod could move this over that would be much appreciated
     
  3. Kesil

    Kesil Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it's used in a porn-y way to deem females that are born with male genitalia. Similarly, fantasy games do not have to deal with real life trans woes or genetic conditions. Do you know of any non-real life slur ways to designate fantasy females who were born with male genitalia? I've seen "newhalf" used at times, but I'm not sure what an oldhalf would be, heh.

    Also, you missed an "a" in "faggot".
     
  4. Evil

    Evil Well-Known Member

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    Substitution lettering, where you can replace a letter in a word without actually saying the word.
    Like saying "f*ck", you're getting around social norms regarding swearing, but still able to show what you mean.
     
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  5. Kesil

    Kesil Well-Known Member

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    It seems I'm not good at irony and/or sarcasm.
     
  6. Evil

    Evil Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't carry over well in text, I'm afraid.
     
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  7. zero point sixty

    zero point sixty Well-Known Member

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    I reckon the OP and Kesil are both correct. While I'm not as upset by it as some, shemale is absolutely a term of objectification that also implicitly denies transwomen their identity.

    However, there do exist in game characters who are females born with penises, but are not herms in the sense of having vaginas as well, and transgirl/woman would be incorrect in referring to them.

    My preferred solution, I think, would be a different word entirely, like Kesil suggests. I'm not really sure what it would be, though. Maybe dickgirl? That might be a bit fetishising too, but lets be real, fetishes are mostly why we're here, and at least that emphasises feminine identity.
     
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  8. Monster Milk

    Monster Milk New Member

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    I'm not really sure what you all think transgirl/transwoman refers to, because it pretty much exclusively refers to women born with a penis. It would be The Term To Use
     
  9. ShySquare

    ShySquare Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone in the forum knows that.

    But we're talking about a Fenoxo game, where people can pretty much mod their bodies to whatever they want through transformatives and where human isn't the only sapient species.
    That means there will most probably be characters who don't fit your definition of a transwoman/transgirl, so we use a different word for these characters.

    If you look at TiTS, for example, there are :
    • NPCs that are cis women who gained a penis for one reason or another = women who have a penis but not born with a penis
      • Zephyr through mods
      • Syri through a teleportation accident

    • cis women NPCs that were born with both a penis and a vagina, because they're aliens = women born with a penis but they were assigned female at birth
    • Kiro, because she is an alien from a species where every person is born with a penis, regardless of gender
    • the Dzaan, an alien species where every person is feminine and uses feminine pronouns but only Alphas have a penis

    • cis women NPCs from alien species where penises are the "default" genitalia for women = women born with a penis but they were assigned female at birth
      • Aliss, an alien from a species where males have a penis but who have a what humans call female secondary traits (developed breasts, wider hips, etc). Even though she is male, Aliss uses she/her pronouns.
      • The Nyrea, where females/women do produce eggs but have a penis-like ovipositor

    And probably lots of others that I forgot.

    It's for the cases above that we're trying to find an appropriate word, and so far we haven't found anything better than dickgirl, shemale and herm (which are not ideal, but for lack of anything more accurate...), and newhalf, which is not as well-known.
     
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    #9 ShySquare, Jun 27, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  10. zero point sixty

    zero point sixty Well-Known Member

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    That's just deliberately obtuse.
     
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  11. Savin

    Savin Master Analmander
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    TiTS and CoC both use "shemale" as a categorization term, the same as many porn sites. It's not being used as a slur, nor are "dickgirl" or "futa" or what have you. Shemale is simply the most recognizable and clear term, while also sounding decent in sex scenes. Which "transgirl" does not, especially in a fantasy theme.
     
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  12. zero point sixty

    zero point sixty Well-Known Member

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    It's your decision, of course, but is there scope for reconsideration? It might not be intended as a slur, but 'shemale' in particular is still considered to be one by most of us, and as your post demonstrates, there are other terms out there.
     
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  13. Zerva

    Zerva Well-Known Member

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    You aren't wrong, but from my point of view there's a bit of a difference between shemale and transgender. One is your physical body, the other is your identity if that makes sense? You can be a shemale, and identify as male or female, it's just what you are instead of who you are. And it would be awkward to refer to all of them as transgirl in my mind because they can be born that way and feel entirely normal in their bodies because that is their norm. The trans, to me, implies a level of disconnection between body and mind.

    To me, being a shemale in this universe is just as natural as being a male or female, so there's no real reason for trans to be used as a term unless a character explicitly was born one way and wanted to be born a different way, which can be facilitated with transformations and quests and such. From my perspective, it just wouldn't fit with the way things work in-universe, the culture doesn't match up with human culture from the start since there are different species who are sentient.
     
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  14. Savin

    Savin Master Analmander
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    This is also all true; there are definitely characters in the setting that naturally come with this set of sex characteristics.
     
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  15. Stemwinder

    Stemwinder Well-Known Member

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    With fantasy settings, and especially settings like these with a whole slew of configurations that we don't have, you have to divorce some things from their real world connotations and remember not to project too much of our culture onto them. Yeah, I'm sure Savin could make up some silly-sounding fantasy words for all of these instead but some of them sound logical enough linguistically to just roll with them. Shemale on its face is a very on-the-nose term for it that doesn't sound degrading or belittling so in-setting it would be perfectly acceptable.
     
  16. zero point sixty

    zero point sixty Well-Known Member

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    As I've already said, I'm with you on this, trans is not the right term. I'm just noting that many trans people find the word 'shemale' in itself very upsetting, even if in the context of the game it is not meant to be.

    edit: I want to be clear I'm not trying to shame anyone who uses the word or make a huge fuss. Obviously most people here are going to be pretty open-minded about gender and sexuality so I'm assuming good faith, I'm just trying to make what I hope is a reasonable case against the term.
     
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    #16 zero point sixty, Jun 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
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  17. Gardeford

    Gardeford Well-Known Member
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    I always feel bad when terms are used offensively against people, because while i have no connection to it, i don't want to lose access to a word because some idiot used it offensively and the offended party now doesn't want to see the word ever. I cant say just don't be offended, because that's stupid and ignorant, but that kind of decision is nigh impossible to reverse once it's been made, so i'd rather it stay in.
     
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  18. DawnCry

    DawnCry Well-Known Member

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    Ah the words and the possible offending issue that some people have with them.

    I don't think that words are inherently offensive but that people add that offensive part to it, for example the word nigger, I have used that word with a black friend and we joke with it, but then you always find someone that tells you not to use it because they find it offensive (SJW to the unneeded rescue I suppose?), however the word was only used as a joke between friends.

    My point is that something that you may find offensive others may not find it like that or even more, they may like it. I have seen quite a few discussions over "transgirl and shemale", most of them are rants against shemale because they find the word offensive, but others like to identify themselves as shemale and don't see anything wrong with it. The thing is that shemale is more used in porn and well, this is a sexy game haha, I find it absolutely normal that it takes that word over transgirl. In fact I would say that's the whole point why many people refused the word shemale, because it is used in porn and it implies sexual objectification (or at least that's what most rants say)

    The only point that would be left would be something like "okay, how about you give both options?", but the thing is that if the creators have to create changes everywhere because people don't like x or y word then this game would never advance. When we talk about sex scenes there are multiple different words to say "penis" and there are people that care about what word was used and it's the same with everything.

    But to end I would like to say something that may be funny, I like much more the word shemale rather than transgirl, to tell you the truth for someone outside all of those issues I find it quite confusing all the "transgenderism and transsexualism", shemale is quite simple to use and more clear on the meaning, transgirl is more confusing, this is only my personal feeling over it.

    I hope I didn't offend anyone with my message, if you felt offended I will say it clear, it wasn't intended, this is just my opinnion about word use.
     
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  19. Fae'ri Pinkett

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    Jul 24, 2018
    Some trans individuals also refer to themselves as "shemales"
    While shemale is derogatory when in reference towards Females that either can not afford or due to medical reasons are unable to obtain gender reassessment surgery.

    Many "trans" woman choose to use the term for themselves if they opt to keep their "birth" genitalia - but go through with hormone treatment and/or top surgery.
    It's not exactly used in a derogatory way, while it is a porn/fetish way remember, so is "latino" used to search up latin men?

    Just because a group feel triggered to see the word, you also realize this game allows you to specify your preferred gender period
    Many creatures won't commit a hate crime against you aside from "rape or fuck" and "not rape or fuck"

    Also remember, the majority of the audience for this game is Straight kinky men.
    Females like yourself and myself, regardless of how you were born - are not the preferred audience off the back.

    If you TRULY dislike these scenes, the only option I could see would allow shemale to be a preferred gender option - and change shemale references in scenes to "gender check"
    (which right now I'm pretty sure they ARE sex checks where they check for penis+breasts.)
     
    #19 Fae'ri Pinkett, Jul 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
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  20. GothPastel

    GothPastel Well-Known Member
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    Thing is, as a trans guy, I personally think it'd be wrong and unfair to call a character that is completely free from gender dysphoria transgender.
    I personally think the better word to use would be dickgirl, but anyway.
    Characters in Fen games that are otherwise born biologically female, but chose to gain a penis are not trans women. They're hermaphrodites if they kept their vagina, or dickgirls if they didn't. Having a penis did not make them suffer from gender dysphoria, and so they are not transgender. Hell, if a character willingly gave up a vagina in exchange for a penis is trans-anything, they're more analogous to trans men.
    Characters in Fen games who are of a species where the biological females have penises (e.g. the Nyrea in TiTS) are not transgender. Having a penis did not make them suffer from gender dysphoria, and so they are not transgender.
    Characters in Fen games that are biologically female from the waist up, but through some quirk of biology were born with a penis which they want to keep, are not transgender, and are best described as having an intersex condition. Having a penis did not make them suffer from gender dysphoria, and so they are not transgender.

    The term transgender is not being used because it is NOT ACCURATE.


    You're allowed to find the terms shemale and dickgirl offensive. You're allowed to want to deck anyone who uses them to refer to you. In the same light I'm allowed to feel the same way about the term cuntboy.
    I'm a guy with a vagina. It causes me to have dysphoria. I want a dick. I'm transgender.
    My character Yoma is a guy with a vagina. It does not cause him to have dysphoria. He does not want a dick. He's a cuntboy.

    You can't force terms that are wildly inaccurate onto characters just because they're more PC.
     
  21. zero point sixty

    zero point sixty Well-Known Member

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    Did we really have to dredge this shit up again just for another explanation of why transwomen shouldn't be offended by this term?

    e: GothPastel is right, of course, in my earlier postings I was making an argument against 'shemale', not in favour of calling characters who aren't trans 'trans'. But I'm also over it, I personally don't find it too upsetting and it ain't getting changed.
     
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  22. GothPastel

    GothPastel Well-Known Member
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    It's right there.
     
  23. zero point sixty

    zero point sixty Well-Known Member

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    You're fine, dude, I wrote that post before you replied.
     
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  24. GothPastel

    GothPastel Well-Known Member
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    Oh, shit, sorry Sixty, I have a nasty habit of assuming //sweatdrops//.
    Bleh, there's just really not a one size fits all way of handling it.
     
  25. ninja_named_bob

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    I have to oppose the whole "you can want to deck someone for using x word" as if it's somehow rational to want to harm another person because what they say offends your worldview somehow. I also have to oppose the unnecessary (and frankly, entitled) way the OP and a few others feel that they need to censor the content and speech of others. If you don't like a word, you either ignore it or don't interact with that content. You're not going to change the world by yelling and screaming about how one word offends you. I find "nigger", "chink", "spic", and the derogatory use of "Jew" as objectionable as "cracker" when it is used as a slur against whites. However, I don't bitch to a forum about how I find it objectionable, and I sure as Hell don't demand a content creator change it to appease my sensitivities. I suck it up and move on with my life.

    Also, there are goddamn starving orphans in Africa, white male suicide rates are ridiculously high, the population of Japan is decreasing at a near-alarming rate, Australia lost a war against birds, and Russia might be pulling shenanigans; and yet, this is the thing that demands the most attention in your life? What pronouns are being applied to a fictional character (or characters) in a niche porn game in a corner of the internet? I just... I can't even fathom. How do you go from asking for equal rights, to demanding marriage rights, to demanding people use an undetermined number of pronouns because everyone is a goddamn snowflake and deserves special treatment, to now demanding a porn game developer producing a niche game on a corner of the internet changes the pronouns they use because you somehow find that more life-threatening than literally everything else in your life?
     
  26. zero point sixty

    zero point sixty Well-Known Member

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    Please take this shit back to your MAGA subreddit and let this thread die.
     
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  27. GothPastel

    GothPastel Well-Known Member
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    You can want to do just about anything my guy. I'm not saying it's healthy or rational. I'm literally just saying that I understand why people would.
    OP wasn't demanding anything. They asked if the devs would consider it. It's not censorship to ask people if they could consider changing a single word. They don't want content removed, or entire chunks of text rewritten. One single word. The devs said no, and they haven't come back to 'bitch' about it.
    Nobody's bitching, either, we were having a perfectly civil conversation.
    And this literally doesn't demand the most attention in just about anyone's life. Nobody's claiming to find the word anything more than upsetting, so I do not have a single clue where you got the idea that we think this is "life-threatening" from. How dare we have a conversation about things related to a porn game on the forum... for that porn game.
     
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  28. ninja_named_bob

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    Wow. You didn't even need a few moments to consider if your opinion on my politics was relevant, or accurate. Great job, friend!

    It's debatable at that point, actually. Asking someone to abide by your desired language when they've freely used their own, have not as-yet been corrected by society or other higher powers, and others don't find it that objectionable to begin with; that is in itself asking an artist to self-censor for your benefit. I did over-react a bit in my initial post, and I apologize for that. I don't, however, abide unnecessary censorship, especially if a dev has already committed to being as inoffensive as possible with their content as Savin and co have. Hell, I would think that if the word is such a trigger for some, maybe they ought to avoid porn altogether since it's likely to pop up now and then. I'm not meaning to come off as elitist or anything, but to establish a position of "logical extremism" inasmuch as one could contribute without further harming the discussion at-hand.

    Anyways, that's my little bit of input. Apologies for the overreaction.
     
  29. zero point sixty

    zero point sixty Well-Known Member

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    Is it just me or is this sentence actually wearing a fedora?
     
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  30. ninja_named_bob

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    Are you just shit-posting for attention, or deliberately misusing memes in an attempt to appear "internet cool" in front of a bunch of randoms on a forum? I'm legitimately concerned you've become so deluded about your own personal problems being non-existent that your life is now you sitting in front of a laptop all day, picking fights with people for the sake of feeling some form of accomplishment with himself. I worry about you, sir, and I hardly know ye. Please seek help. And sunlight.
     
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