Who consumes male content? (Answer

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Karakara

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Hi,

I made a thread around 3 months ago where I made a points that were all over the place on a subject that I am very much pasionate about -- male content. The way I constuded it made it seem like I wanted characters that are exlusively gay. Which is not what I was on about. Yet for me to better present my points, I need an answer first -- who even consumes the male NPCs in CoC2?

Are the male audience mostly composed mostly of straight/bi women or gay/bisexual men? Or is it some combination of both?

Are those people into being doms/subs? Do they prefer to top/bottom?

I am asking because the game seems so sure that it is composed mainly of women -- which I do not personally buy in the slightest -- with how the guys are written. By which I mean they are mostly composed of doms that do not bottom to save their lives. With some of them being written like bad otome interests (I am looking at you Tetsuya, Quinn and that elf twunk).

Are there any concreate numbers out there?
 

Emerald

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2016
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Idk what demographic mainly consumes male content bc the demographic from what I've seen be said for it is very small. Either way I assume it's a mix of the ones you mentioned. Even if a small mix...
But I'm a bi woman who consumes male content mostly bc the oversaturation of women in the games makes me want men so much more more to the point you'd call me straight (don't do that btw I will hate you). And since I play as a femmy guy in games that let me my engagement with male characters usually exclusively makes that engagement m/m as a result.

But I'm just one person.
 
K

Karakara

Guest
Idk what demographic mainly consumes male content bc the demographic from what I've seen be said for it is very small. Either way I assume it's a mix of the ones you mentioned. Even if a small mix...
Oh I know that. I never went into this with assumption that maybe around 5 to 7 percent of the player base is into some kind of men.

But you see, that is the thing. I want to make a thread discussing the weird dichotomy between how women and men are handled inside this game, but that would be me going on 2 presumptuous:

First one -- since most of the audience is composed of guys that play these games for girls, one would assume that some percentage of those boys would also be the ones willing to consume the male content. Let's say it that around 5 percent are willing. And that even that small percentage would outnumber women that play these games. Which is an assumption that I made on the accounts how the game treats it female player base and the way the game is marketed. Of course, sexuality is a spectrum and all that, and not everyone is into every type of guy (those poor souls).

So going of first assumption, one would assume that since the game is mostly composed of subby women that are predominantly meant for guys, male NPCs would follow suit. Yet they do not.

Which then leads to me scratching my head and opens up so many questions.
"Do suddenly those guys turn into subs when they are fucking a dude?"
"Am I wrong and do subby women/subby gays/bis suddenly come out from woodwork whenever a guy is released?"
"Am I to alpha for this game?" And so on and so on.

There is no frame of reference for me to make my case that, quite frankly, the way guys are written/constructed here is not the best when it comes to, you know, gathering a larger male loving fanbase. And I feel whenever a guy is released that there is a missed opportunity.


But I'm a bi woman who consumes male content mostly bc the oversaturation of women in the games makes me want men so much more more to the point you'd call me straight (don't do that btw I will hate you). And since I play as a femmy guy in games that let me my engagement with male characters usually exclusively makes that engagement m/m as a result.
Would you call yourself a fujoshi? This reminds me of my female friends who are into yaoi/BL.
 

Knife-wielding Crab

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Dec 25, 2017
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I am a (mostly) gay man that has been lurking since the game started. I really liked how the game had something for everyone at the start, but I felt that most of the content turned towards straight/futa content as time went on. I've been surviving on whatever scraps gets thrown to me untill i said "screw it. I'm gonna write my own porn".

I think one issue is that the authors that wrote most of the male content has vanished.
 
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Gabranth

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Apr 26, 2023
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Male content feels niche at best.
If I had to put it in numbers, 2 or 3/10 players actually consume it.

Of course, straight men are the core of the player base, so it's understandable.
It doesn't help the case that, just like Crab said, authors who wrote that content left.
 

Knife-wielding Crab

Well-Known Member
Dec 25, 2017
139
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Oh I know that. I never went into this with assumption that maybe around 5 to 7 percent of the player base is into some kind of men.

But you see, that is the thing. I want to make a thread discussing the weird dichotomy between how women and men are handled inside this game, but that would be me going on 2 presumptuous:

First one -- since most of the audience is composed of guys that play these games for girls, one would assume that some percentage of those boys would also be the ones willing to consume the male content. Let's say it that around 5 percent are willing. And that even that small percentage would outnumber women that play these games. Which is an assumption that I made on the accounts how the game treats it female player base and the way the game is marketed. Of course, sexuality is a spectrum and all that, and not everyone is into every type of guy (those poor souls).

So going of first assumption, one would assume that since the game is mostly composed of subby women that are predominantly meant for guys, male NPCs would follow suit. Yet they do not.

Which then leads to me scratching my head and opens up so many questions.
"Do suddenly those guys turn into subs when they are fucking a dude?"
"Am I wrong and do subby women/subby gays/bis suddenly come out from woodwork whenever a guy is released?"
"Am I to alpha for this game?" And so on and so on.

There is no frame of reference for me to make my case that, quite frankly, the way guys are written/constructed here is not the best when it comes to, you know, gathering a larger male loving fanbase. And I feel whenever a guy is released that there is a missed opportunity.



Would you call yourself a fujoshi? This reminds me of my female friends who are into yaoi/BL.
You can take another similar game as example; Flexible Survival. It is a text based game with transformation and a wide range of content. All tough it has both straight and gay content, it's quite clear that the writers of that game prefers male content. It is noticeable in both the quantity and quality of writing. This attracts players that are into male content, which incentivizes the writers to write more male content that they also enjoy.

This, in turn, results in a plethora of male characters of various positions, attitudes, body types etc.

As for your three questions, it all relies on the author of those characters. If an author isn't into a subby man, it won't get written. And since no such characters exists, the players that are into those characters will look elsewhere for such characters.
 
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K

Karakara

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trans man, bi but leans masc. i'm a bottom-leaning verse switch but god damn do the tops need some food
Cool. And yeah, this is basically me. I am starving.

I am a (mostly) gay man that has been lurking since the game started. I really liked how the game had something for everyone at the start, but I felt that most of the content turned towards straight/futa content as time went on. I've been surviving on whatever scraps gets thrown to me untill i said "screw it. I'm gonna write my own porn".

I think one issue is that the authors that wrote most of the male content has vanished.
Oh, I have seen what you have been cooking. Much appreaciated. I especially love your orc thane and elfboy expansions. Hope they get through.

I think one issue is that the authors that wrote most of the male content has vanished.
Well that is to bad. Although, I more so miss Hugs then that Bubblelord guy. His guys were the straightest bunch I ever had the displeasure of fucking. Especially the way Quinn was getting handled.

4 / 100, actually, the last time we ran surveys.
Oh, I guessed that it is around 5 percent. These days it is probably lower with how sporadic and unfulfilling the content actually is. But then again, I assume those are paying costumers and I see no reason why people interested in men would be paying for this. Especially after the way Berwyn was handled.

But I am more so interested of what that minority is composed off. Are there any stats on that?
 
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K

Karakara

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I mean, yeah. But is still feels bad how contents that was initially meant for people that are into feminine guys got scrambled/ruined/corrupted for the sake of appealing to a larger majority aka -- straight men. I still remember the initial blogs listing of "selling points".

"Listen, we know we are removing the most popular male compamion, but look, you can turn him into a girl! You can have a waifu! Not only that but two wafus."

"And how is this suppose to appeal to people that like Berwyn as he is. It looks like we loose a lot more then we gain for sake of people that were never into him in the first place."

"... loook everyone, you can have waifu!"

Was there any suprise that there was backlash from it? At least give us an option to turn Matiha into a guy, heh.
 
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Karakara

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But I really do not want to focus on it for that is just one of the examples of top of my head where the ball was dropped in terms of male content. Whats done is done.

I just hope in future we do not make the same mistake twice.
 

Kesil

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Aug 26, 2015
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I do because I'm not a lesbian ¯\(ツ)
As for the question, I am not interested in dom/sub dynamics. And, just like that, I am not interested in those "bad otome interests" either.
 

Greyfox643

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May 20, 2016
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I do, occasionally. I'm a AMAB Pansexual... but the specific kind of guys I find appealing are VERY niche, and somewhat unexplainable. Like, there's a lot of vibes there I suppose?

Like femmy men, which i love, but only certain KINDS of femmy men (e.g. Sugo, elf boy, and Nikol are hot to me, but I find Jin-Jin and June unattractive). Or for classic hunks, I love, LOVE Tetsuya and Rooh, but Quinn and Imad do nothing for me.
 
K

Karakara

Guest
You can take another similar game as example; Flexible Survival. It is a text based game with transformation and a wide range of content. All tough it has both straight and gay content, it's quite clear that the writers of that game prefers male content. It is noticeable in both the quantity and quality of writing. This attracts players that are into male content, which incentivizes the writers to write more male content that they also enjoy.

This, in turn, results in a plethora of male characters of various positions, attitudes, body types etc.
First, sorry for not responding immidietly. For some reason, I did not notice your post.

I do agree with your sentiment. It self sustaining loop -- if you write more women, the demand for them will rise. If you write more men, same thing.

As for your three questions, it all relies on the author of those characters. If an author isn't into a subby man, it won't get written. And since no such characters exists, the players that are into those characters will look elsewhere for such characters

But, at the same time, as someone who reads a lot of MlM content and plays a lot of BL games, it doesnt the serve game well to kind of ignore the fact that a lot of people that like to engage with guys, of any kind, maybe would like to top. Especially in a game that is more likely to bring in male players than female ones.

Not allowing so rarely makes sense. It substantiually boosts the appeal of NPC if people are abvle to do so. And if you continuesly write men that are going to ignore that simple fact, then you can not act suprise when that character suffers in terms of popularity wsith the players that are withing your market. There often times has to be a compromise between the need of the author and what audience wants. Which I am sure writers here are more than aware off.

For example, Quin, the twink that he is, would be substantially more popular if he was willing to do so. Yet he does not. Then that leads to his writer going on a tirade how he is not popular.

Like, christ, Yone only has three scenes yet people quickly got attached to him for a short period since he was willing to bottom to us. And also be a service top for ladies that also like to take control.

Hell, from what I have seen, one of the most popular submissions on comunities front has to do with adding content to June. A cute boy that is all about servicing the player. Yet, with how popular withing that small minority, we continue seeing these failed attemps Otome wannabes or "gigachad" tops.

Hell, even Brint, the most on the nose definition of the dom, still has scenes where he acts like our bitch. And those are, personal bias ahoy, my favorites. And while I am sure most people got attached to him because he is such a hunk, he still offers those that like to top big guys something to chew on.

Good lord. This was a tirade and a half.

I do because I'm not a lesbian ¯\(ツ)
As for the question, I am not interested in dom/sub dynamics. And, just like that, I am not interested in those "bad otome interests" either.
My condolonces to all you straight galls and gay boys. If I was only into men, I would have left this game ages ago.

As for the question, I am not interested in dom/sub dynamics. And, just like that, I am not interested in those "bad otome interests" either.
See, while my main focus is sub/dom dynamics, I would be not opposed to just dating a guy. It is just that when it comes to games, I prefer to be a dom regardless of who my sexual partner is.

I do, occasionally. I'm a AMAB Pansexual... but the specific kind of guys I find appealing are VERY niche,
Whic type of guy is not niche in this community is my question. But hey, it sounds to me that you are more into the way that character acts then their looks (yet they do still play the part.)

Like femmy men, which i love, but only certain KINDS of femmy men (e.g. Sugo, elf boy, and Nikol are hot to me, but I find Jin-Jin and June unattractive). Or for classic hunks, I love, LOVE Tetsuya and Rooh, but Quinn and Imad do nothing for me.
It sounds to me that you are into more bottom heavy feminine boys then ones with defined muscles. As for twinks/hunks... Maybe its just the attitude. Imad is such a bore, Quinn is a jerk. And while Tetsuya is obviously not my thing, he is quite relaxed guy. Same with rooh.
 

Emerald

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Jun 8, 2016
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Would you call yourself a fujoshi? This reminds me of my female friends who are into yaoi/BL.
Well No bc I don't fetishize mlm couples, at least with how I hear the word misused in English compared to its less demonized japan definition -I do not use the term in that awful definition bc it is the US's "japan lingo bad but English lingo good" xenophobia I've seen thrown around, BUT for our sakes I will say I do not consider myself one bc that will get me flamed- bc I am definitely capable of being obsessed with f/f stuff too! I just would like more men in the game to sex and my character being male in these games just has the side effect of always making male content I interact with mlm is all. Like I said, over-saturation of women makes me want men more than I usually do bc my preferences shift accordingly. ^^'

If there was an Opposite of Fengames out there was still being updated, and mainly of male characters instead of women/futas combined, I'd definitely be more open to playing characters more of my sex (even if not exactly gender, but I'd be more open to play as a bi cis women like myself regardless especially bc then there would be more accounted for that stuff), but the porn game sphere is definitely dominated by straight men or men that like woman features. And assumptions are the most one can do in these sorts of things.

Like Greyfox, I have a very specific taste in men in these games that make me even more niche of an audience than I already am. I like feminine men, trappy guys even. I always play as one for multiple reasons but the main one is always there's more females than men in the game, and I am more interested in reading m/f content than f/f content written mainly by straight men outside the obvious exceptions. But the catch is that they need to be men, aka identify as one. ID as girls and they aren't femboys anymore. I like femboys who are pretty stable (and much more preferably confident) in their male gender/sex and yeah, I do not like when they can be turned into girls bc that takes them out of the femboy niche and puts them into the usual mtf/dickgirl niche and we KNOW that when given the choice most will turn them into girls. We've seen that with Brint after all. (I actually wanted to write a character more to my taste in these games, even got pretty far, got down to the sex scenes, but considering the character clause it caused me way too much anxiety and turned me completely away from even trying minor characters I had in mind, and the Berry fiasco is not something I think anyone wants a repeat of.)
This in turn already takes away the "safe zone" that the majority have interest in, and makes the character more niche bc if they can't appeal to those that want the character a woman in some way, that alienates those into that. For better or for worse depends on what you intend to appeal to to begin with. If you appeal to the majority, you ruin the niche that you set up, if you stick to the niche, you turn away the majority. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer to know where a character is going with these sorts of things, that way I don't get disappointed. Bubble's femboys and twinks fit that niche for me in not super masculine guys that will stay that way, but ever since he disappeared without a word his characters are unfortunate at risk of falling into that cliche the game has bc of the character clause. It's why I don't write content for myself here, bc I would need long breaks sometimes and sometimes forget I'm here.

Like if I was to write a femboy who was confident in his gender (and in using his dick alongside his ass) and stubborn about not changing it bc the PC makes him, whether or not he fucks a guy, already that puts him in a niche. A hard gay femboy confident in his gender and refusing to change that? Even more a hard niche. Add that maybe they do not like anal bc I hate the steryotype that femboys are permabottoms and want to change the formula, and I will probably have to fight some folks if I did write that bc we have people being annoying about Quinn not wanting to do anal, IMAGINE if a femboy didn't like it bc of personal reasons. :U

As for your other questions:

"Do suddenly those guys turn into subs when they are fucking a dude?"
For the scene? Obviously, but that doesn't make them suddenly hard subs. It's how the scene was written. For ex Brint: If a character who seems like a hard dom "turns subby" when getting reamed in the ass. You just put an assumption on the character that just bc they say they're a hard dom at first, they turn subby when they get reamed. When in actuality Brint allows himself to be a switch with you bc he trusts you. He's still mainly dominant otherwise. An exception doesn't say much in the grand scheme of things.
Can't speak on the Champ, bc the Champ is whatever you want them to be. I stay with them being a Switch both regarding top/bottom and dom/sub bc it requires less annoying shit to deal with. I do not mind my character getting reamed in the ass. But give us some more PC powerbottom scenes, are there even any??

"Am I wrong and do subby women/subby gays/bis suddenly come out from woodwork whenever a guy is released?"
I cannot say bc again I am just one woman. Depends on who the guy is willing to do. I'm a switch with a submissive preference but frankly would love for more instances where the PC can dominate men, bc subby Champ is so common, but I will also take dominant men too. Really it depends on my mood at the time and if they are willing to switch.

Idk know what you mean by "am I to alpha for this game" to answer that so I will refrain.
 
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zagzig

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The "bad otome love interests," specifically Tetsuya and Elyon, were written for vocal segments of the fandom, yes.

Tetsuya was commissioned and written as a male extension for floof content, to allow players to be the 'Kiyoko'. So his primary tags are male-topping and heteronormative, procreative sex. As for his wider popularity, we don't have that level of market research, but his author seems to get plenty of requests for him and is planning a follow-up when he's done writing the Knot Cave (aka The Cave of Scope Creep) dungeon.

Elyon is also a commission for a community member who wanted a brooding and tortured rough love interest. I can't speak to his wider popularity, but he's very popular with the community member who commissioned him.

The key element here is that, as male content is not a featured aspect of this game, male content is usually only getting in if it appeals to the author, or enthusiastic members of the fandom make it happen. I enjoy male content from time to time (love you Brint) but if it were the only thing I were interested in I probably wouldn't be supporting the game.

I imagine if you asked the devs why this is and they were inclined to answer, they would say it doesn't make financial sense to dedicate extensive time and energy to growing 4% of the fanbase, when they can instead keep working on what brought the other 96% to the table. At least until such a time that CoC2 runs out of men on the internet who like sex with women.
 
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K

Karakara

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The "bad otome love interests,", specifically Tetsuya and Elyon, were written for vocal segments of the fandom, yes.
Oh, they were commisions? That explains a lot. This still does not give me an answer as to who is mainly interested in male content. Anyone can commision anything and we do not know if what they commsioned actually appeals to the wider male consumong playerbase. It just appeals to them and those that share their interest.

I imagine if you asked the devs why this is and they were inclined to answer, they would say it doesn't make financial sense to dedicate extensive time and energy to growing 4% of the fanbase, when they can instead keep working on what brought the other 96% to the table. At least until such a point that CoC2 runs out of men on the internet who like straight porn.
But if you are going to try to write something for the 5 percent, maybe try gaining more bang for your buck? Was there any reason as to why the two bad otome love interests couldnt have had some bottoming content? Or at least make it feel more gay friendly?

"Oh yeah, Tetsuya. Keep talking about wanting to have children while my ass here does not equipment to give to you."

And before you start, I know that writing guys for this game is never worth it. At the end of the day, I still have some respect torwards writers that include it.

I am not probing here for more regular male content. I am probing here for an answer if the energy they are expending curently on writing these types men is going to good use. Are there really enough women playing this game that it justifies excluding a huge, probably more plentifull, side of the male lovers?
 

zagzig

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Feb 26, 2021
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But if you are going to try to write something for the 5 percent, maybe try gaining more bang for your buck? Was there any reason as to why the two bad otome love interests couldnt have had some bottoming content? Or at least make it feel more gay friendly?

"Oh yeah, Tetsuya. Keep talking about wanting to have children while my ass here does not equipment to give to you."

And before you start, I know that writing guys for this game is never worth it. At the end of the day, I still have some respect torwards writers that include it.

I am not probing here for more regular male content. I am probing here for an answer if the energy they are expending curently on writing these types men is going to good use. Are there really enough women playing this game that it justifies excluding a huge, probably more plentifull, side of the male lovers?
Since most male content that gets into the game is either author appeal or a commission, it will usually be what the author or commissioner wants rather than trying to appeal to a broader market. If they were trying to create a strategically appealing character, they would be writing a woman.

Tetsuya's author has a lot of stuff he wants to write, so the content that got written before he moved on to another project was the core fetish (get knocked up by your foxy babydaddy). And Jstar seems to personally quite like kitsune content and pregnancy, so there's author appeal as well. Same with Elyon, the commissioner wanted exclusively a top and Tobs obliged.
 

Karakara

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If they were trying to create a strategically appealing character, they would be writing a woman.
Yeah, but the male content that is getting written seems to be targeting a side of the audience that is even a minority in minority. Which is quite strange. You would think that if you are going to write a guy, you would not write him with such limited reach.

Fuck it, why not prove my point by writing some of it myself.
 

zagzig

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Feb 26, 2021
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Yeah, but the male content that is getting written seems to be targeting a side of the audience that is even a minority in minority. Which is quite strange. You would think that if you are going to write a guy, you would not write him with such limited reach.

Fuck it, why not prove my point by writing some of it myself.
I mean, yeah. Another community author, Reathe, is a big fan of m/m who has long been dissatisfied. So he started writing his own stuff for CoC2 and TiTS.

He's also a turbo-bottom who likes hunks, so unfortunately none of his content would be aimed to you. But nonetheless.

Community authors are wonderful people and I respect and admire those dedicated perverts.
 
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Kesil

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Aug 26, 2015
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Whic type of guy is not niche in this community is my question.
I have a bit of a biased joke concerning what the games tend to feature:
"I-can-fix-him" guys? Check.
Beefcakes? Check.
Girly guys? Check.
Twinks and handsome lads with an attitude of some sort (including "easy-to-get-blushed") guys? Check.
"Any Regular Guy"? Goodness, no!

I think Hinata was the first male I became interested in when I began playing CoC2. Now that I think about it, it might be something tied to groups, as I feel the same about Elaril and the wyld elves, Svern and the Caravan and Jen's mercenaries. Ditto for the Frostwood kitsune or the demon cultists.
 
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Zeopard

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I'm a gay guy, and actually created this account specifically to respond. I did a search trying to gauge the current status of this and found this topic.

Having played the original CoC years ago, I honestly didn't know about any huge bias overall for m/f content. Obviously it's something that is more common, but I felt there was enough in the game to be happy about. I didn't look at the original CoC much after someone running a fan project started taking an axe to a bunch of content they didn't personally like. Consensual Jojo interaction being axed being the final straw for my interest in that fan project. I don't remember if romancing him even existed in the non-fan-modified CoC, but the content was appreciated in the version it existed in, so seeing a vanilla potentially m/m romance removed on a whim was the last straw for me.

As to preference, I don't really consider "sub" or "dom" and like it when characters are versatile. I like the way Garret is handled, with politely declining interest. It's understandable not every character would be interested, though I do like it when a character swings multiple ways. I understand male content is more niche overall and I'm not naive or demanding enough to expect infinite diversity in infinite combinations, to quote Star Trek, but the content is appreciated. I bought CoC2 on Steam the moment I knew it was there.

I'm not very far in CoC2 and paused when hitting a milestone, though I don't remember what that milestone was.
It may have been shortly after rescuing Garret.
Since the game is still under development I figure waiting is best when it comes to the likelihood of running into more m/m interactions.
 

Kesil

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Aug 26, 2015
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Consensual Jojo interaction being axed being the final straw for my interest in that fan project. I don't remember if romancing him even existed in the non-fan-modified CoC, but the content was appreciated in the version it existed in
It didn't exist. For what it worth, I corrupted him during my first run because it was the only way to proc more scenes other than meditating and training ones, and I started a new game due to my "what have I done?" reaction after facing his unwanted identity death :eyepop:
 
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Akhter13

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Aug 30, 2015
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I'm a gay guy, and actually created this account specifically to respond. I did a search trying to gauge the current status of this and found this topic.

Having played the original CoC years ago, I honestly didn't know about any huge bias overall for m/f content. Obviously it's something that is more common, but I felt there was enough in the game to be happy about. I didn't look at the original CoC much after someone running a fan project started taking an axe to a bunch of content they didn't personally like. Consensual Jojo interaction being axed being the final straw for my interest in that fan project. I don't remember if romancing him even existed in the non-fan-modified CoC, but the content was appreciated in the version it existed in, so seeing a vanilla potentially m/m romance removed on a whim was the last straw for me.

As to preference, I don't really consider "sub" or "dom" and like it when characters are versatile. I like the way Garret is handled, with politely declining interest. It's understandable not every character would be interested, though I do like it when a character swings multiple ways. I understand male content is more niche overall and I'm not naive or demanding enough to expect infinite diversity in infinite combinations, to quote Star Trek, but the content is appreciated. I bought CoC2 on Steam the moment I knew it was there.

I'm not very far in CoC2 and paused when hitting a milestone, though I don't remember what that milestone was.
It may have been shortly after rescuing Garret.
Since the game is still under development I figure waiting is best when it comes to the likelihood of running into more m/m interactions.
If that is as far as you have got and presuming that you are not waiting for this to be finished, dive in there is a considerable pool of gentlemen awaiting to make your acquaintance. Yes mensch on mensch may be a niche but this is a game with 180+ sexable characters and I would say over 2 dozen of them are what you would say dude. Heck two of the companions are male
 

Connor Lupin

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Nov 19, 2021
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Another gay guy here. I'm a switch verse with a preference for bottoming but I would still love to be able to top guys more often, I like more masculine guys so that narrows down the pool of content quite a lot. That's why I usually just play this on and off while occasionally checking the forum to see if any male content is being cooked up.
 

Karakara

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Feb 15, 2024
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So from what I see, a lot more dudes responded to this thread then dudets. And I know a lot more dudes interested in guys then I do chicks... Well bias of living proof not winstandind, it just makes the existing content all that more strange in it's execution.