The Power Fantasy Problem

[TheShepard256]

So, Savin has made his distaste for power fantasies quite clear, and this distaste is why CoC2 was designed from the beginning not to be one. My question is: why, with this in mind, was it decided that CoC2's plot should be of the "save the world" variety that so easily lends itself to power fantasies?

I'm pretty sure the disconnect between these two major design choices is the reason behind complaints that basically boil down to BUT MAH POWAH FANTUSEE! (one of which directly led to the creation of Hirrud Grune and the cat harem). It's not like this had to be the case; it's completely possible to make a compelling story in an RPG without having to save everyone from some existential threat, as demonstrated by TiTS and (to some extent) Dragon Age 2. Moreover, Savin is actually one of TiTS's major writers, so it's not like he's incapable of pulling off such a story.

The only thing I can think of that could be a reason behind this relates to my previous examples. Both Steele and Hawke are quite well-defined by RPG standards, and the plots of their respective games are too personal to work if you try to substitute someone without the elements that make them well-defined. The Champion of Hawkethorne, on the other hand, is the RPG-standard generic blob who's the hero simply because they were in the right place at the right time. If CoC2's protagonist was always intended to be of the latter variety, then the plot couldn't be personalised to them and I'd understand going for a more generic plot.

I was originally going to post this in the gripes/criticism thread, but decided that putting it there may lead to my point being misunderstood.

 

[TheShepard256]

Whilst one could argue CoC2's premise lends itself to power fantasy, it doesn't have to.

I agree that "save the world" doesn't inherently include a power fantasy (CoC2 is proof of that), but I still think it easily lends itself to power fantasies (particularly in RPGs) because a lot of people (especially those who don't understand the nuances of conflict and resolving conflicts) would follow this chain of logic:

1. The villain(s) of a "save the world" scenario have enough power enough to threaten the world.
2. In order to beat said force, the hero(es) must have even more power.
3. Because the hero(es) have more power than the villain(s), they therefore have more than enough power to threaten the world.
4. Because of 3., the hero(es) must therefore have enough power that nothing in the world could pose a successful threat to them.
5. Additionally, because the hero(es) are the world's saviour(s), they're due a lot of respect and rewards.
6. Because of 5., the hero(es) deserve to have their wants fulfilled, within reason (though what "within reason" means can vary wildly).

And when it comes to RPGs, the hero is usually meant to represent the player, so anything the player wants, the hero wants. The power fantasy comes in when people assume this chain of logic is correct, setting up the expectation that the hero is the hottest shit in the world.
The fact that more than a few RPGs wind up with the hero(es) defeating actual deities (or similarly over-/superpowered beings) also sets a precedent that unfortunately feeds into these expectations.

The truth is way more complicated than this logic would imply, so its conclusions don't necessarily hold true, which is why a power fantasy isn't inherent to a "save the world" plot. Then the people who hold such fantasies complain when the hero's power demonstrably doesn't match those expectations (e.g. Drider Queen/Byvernia keep beating them, Anno/Cait having sex with others).

 

[Savin]

I'm pretty sure the disconnect between these two major design choices is the reason behind complaints that basically boil down to BUT MAH POWAH FANTUSEE!

Nah that's squarely down to normal porn game tropes.

The reality is that fantasy games, especially roleplaying games, need stakes and adventure to function on a basic level. The difference between a generic power fantasy experience and a good branching narrative is, in my humble opinion:
A) Not everything goes your way all the time, and sometimes there's just nothing you can do about it
B) If you want good things to happen to you, you have to earn them

I think good examples of the difference expressed well are (the ol' tried-and-true examples) The Witcher and Dark Souls. You can, and are expected to, wield power and execute judgements in certain situations but sometimes you're just going to have to bonk your head on the game putting you in a shitty position that doesn't have a happy ending, or some incredible mechanical challenge to overcome -- or don't. It doesn't matter if you've become the Dark Lord three times on your playthroughs of DS1; some naked zombie with a torch can still kill you if you aren't paying attention. Sometimes you gotta choose between rescuing your hot girlfriend or saving the last heir to the kingdom. And then be real buttmad next game when it didn't matter.

But also yes, it's hard to have a very ~personalized~ plot when your PC is blobchamp. The Baddie-Wants-Your-Soul thing is about the most personal you can get without having a person to write for.

 

[TheShepard256]

Nah that's squarely down to normal porn game tropes.

Ah, so it's me misunderstanding things again. I just don't recall seeing the same kinds of complaints about TiTS (maybe they did happen, and were before my time here?), so I guess I attributed the difference to the different plot premises: the only thing I could identify that both factors into these types of complaints and distinguishes the games from each other.

The reality is that fantasy games, especially roleplaying games, need stakes and adventure to function on a basic level.

True, I was just wondering why this particular level of stakes were chosen.

 

[Starstruck]

I just don't recall seeing the same kinds of complaints about TiTS (maybe they did happen, and were before my time here?.

Ironic, cause TiTs is literal Power Fantasy in a shiny Science Fiction car. Which is probably why there's no complaints... TiTs makes no effort to pretend its something it isn't, it strikes no middle ground... and people know exactly what they're getting when they boot it up.

 

[Evil]

True, I was just wondering why this particular level of stakes were chosen.

At first glance, its about control, being the dominant or the submissive one.
Consider this - you're an ordinary person, you've decided you want to see more of the world beyond that which you grew up in. You saw you coins and make your way north. You stop in a tavern and by whatever twist of fate, you end up caught in a personal battle with a demon who wants your soul.

Do you become a submissive and bow to her? Or do you show you're the dominant one and fight back.

Its about control and your active choice to relinquish that control or reach out and take it.

 

[Wsan]

If you think there's no gripes about the TiTS power fantasy then you haven't read about ants, New Texas, Dr. Badger, or Akane. They just don't get brought up these days because it's been retread on the forums so often everyone hates it

 

[Starstruck]

If you think there's no gripes about the TiTS power fantasy then you haven't read about ants, New Texas, Dr. Badger, or Akane. They just don't get brought up these days because it's been retread on the forums so often everyone hates it

... you know, that's a fair point!

 

[TheShepard256]

If you think there's no gripes about the TiTS power fantasy then you haven't read about ants, New Texas, Dr. Badger, or Akane. They just don't get brought up these days because it's been retread on the forums so often everyone hates it

... Ah. I've seen those complaints, but somehow didn't make the connection between them and the ones levelled at CoC2. Probably because I don't recall any mentions of power fantasies in the responses to said complaints. (I'm not particularly good at figuring out that kind of stuff on my own.)

Ironic, cause TiTs is literal Power Fantasy in a shiny Science Fiction car. Which is probably why there's no complaints... TiTs makes no effort to pretend its something it isn't, it strikes no middle ground... and people know exactly what they're getting when they boot it up.

I was going to say that TiTS doesn't seem like a power fantasy to me, but thinking of how to justify that claim made me realise that saying it is one is just as, if not more, defensible.


I've also realised that whenever I post a question in this subforum, the responses make me feel a bit stupid for not realising things before.

 

[Paradox01]

I've also realised that whenever I post a question in this subforum, the responses make me feel a bit stupid for not realising things before.

Trust me, brother, you sound like Socrates compared to most people here.

 

[Starstruck]

... Ah. I've seen those complaints, but somehow didn't make the connection between them and the ones levelled at CoC2.

I was going to say that TiTS doesn't seem like a power fantasy to me, but thinking of how to justify that claim made me realise that saying it is one is just as, if not more, defensible.

In my opinion the complaints with the likes of Dr, Badger, Akane, and Lane just for starters, derives from the fact that these moments of helplessness are jarring to people because it conflicts with the feeling that the vast majority of the game invokes, power fantasy. It's one helluva whiplash, undefeatable hotshot star captain one moment and, for some inexplicable and hamfisted reason, helpless victim in the next.

 

[Tenalc13]

I will add my five cents to the discussion.
As you said, the Champion is a typical RPG hero who happened to be in the right place and time (well, or champ was out of luck, it depends on how you look at it ). Hawke just had to steam up a mercenary as well.
But further along the plot, the story follows the same path as the Dragon Age. There is a big problem (Qunari / Demons) and we are trying to solve it. Or would I say we are trying to save our soul and/by solving the problems of different people in the Marches (or not). We must also understand that we (the players) know that demons are damn dangerous, and our avatar knows practically nothing about this and the gods themselves do not rush to help or give advice. So it can be prudent that they don't see a threat in the Kasyrra.

Spoiler

Except the case at the Palace of Ice. Lumiya herself came to help and said that she would kick Kas's ass later.

I believe that we have not advanced far enough in the plot to draw conclusions. I do not know what plan Savin & Co. has. Do they have a full-fledged script or only the backbone of a common plot and they "build up the mass" so to speak?
Personally, I would like to see further quests or stories telling about the world itself and its mysteries. Be it part of the main plot or a side story.

Spoiler

For example: where did the old gods go? why does white magic still work or is it supported by new gods? and why then there is dark magic?

In general, I would be glad if in the end we defeat Kas but find out some kind of "terrible" secret that can lead to 3 parts (fingers crossed)

I've also realised that whenever I post a question in this subforum, the responses make me feel a bit stupid for not realising things before.

Same

 

[WolframL]

I do not know what plan Savin & Co. has. Do they have a full-fledged script or only the backbone of a common plot and they "build up the mass" so to speak?

Somewhere in the middle, I expect. The public design doc has notes for stuff that's only barely been hinted at in the game so far and Savin's got a rough map of the setting to show the planned main zones and how they all connect, so I'm fairly sure there's more than just a vague outline of the plot sitting on Savin's computer in his secret volcano base. At the same time, the fact that the writers spend months working on major content (and the full Khor'minos experience is sounding like it's going to be the work of two or so years to complete) mean there isn't a huge script of all the main content already done. Not to mention, that approach wouldn't be very flexible.

Personally, I would like to see further quests or stories telling about the world itself and its mysteries. Be it part of the main plot or a side story. (For example: where did [REDACTED] go?

Agreed that more things adding to the lore will be a lot of fun (future tense because I'm sure we're getting more) but that point in particular is one that's not going to be explored in-depth, because scope creep.

Also, miiiiight wanna toss that under a spoiler tag because it's kind of a big thing and not everybody has necessarily finished that quest.

 

[cobra]

TiTS in a nutshell.

 

[Starstruck]

Mhm, like I said TiTs never gets complaints about Power Fantasy because it's always been a Power Fantasy and that's a big part of what people play it for.
What it does get are ample complaints when certain characters whiplash Steele out of that trope because their narrative demands it.

Like Akane's Host Shukuchi Agents ambushing and capturing Steele without initiating combat and then her subjecting the player character to a bruising interrogation that they can't get out of without humbling themselves for her.

Or, more egregiously. Dr. Badger cornering Steele in, once again, a position that you're not allowed tp fight your way out of, you gotta either swallow your pride or get turned into a badger bimbo, there is no alternative that lets you walk out of there with your dignity.

CoC2 Has dodged this bullet to date, but even if similar scenarios were to play out it'd get away with it because it's not a Power Fantasy, the biggest evidence of course are the companions. Most, indeed probably all of the encounters from the Old Forest to the Glacial Rift are all but impossible for the Champion alone to win, whereas Steele almost always adventures alone because The, Captain, Steele, is just that badass.

 

[LonelyHydra]

This reminds me of a few posts in another thread. From @Sandeklaus:

...Trials in Tainted Space is generally much better at this, in my view, and that's probably because the stakes are usually more personal. It's a glorified treasure hunt, not a cosmic battle of good and evil, and you're not (usually) deciding the fate of whole planets (or equivalent play-spaces). You just get to meddle in how different NPCs turn out, shake out some different loot, get some shifted dialogue, and that still feels like a suitable level of agency. In CoC2, the basic premise is that Demons Are Fucking Places Up and you need to fix them, which is a great, reusable hook for different areas, but also implies a serious branch in how those areas emerge in the aftermath. ...

You can literally blow up half the main story planets and kill or cause to be killed more people than exist in Savarra several times over.

Hence "usually", yes.

More to the point, of the two blow-uppable planets I'm aware of (Tarkus and Myrellion), you're not there to blow them up, and doing so is framed as a failure state rather than a character-driven decision. You don't go to Myrellion on the premise that YOU WILL CHOOSE IF MYRELLION LIVES OR DIES, COMMANDER SHEP- I MEAN CAPTAIN STEELE, and actually blowing it up requires a relatively specific series of decisions taking place in an optional sidequest. It's a borderline Easter egg.

Additionally, blowing up Myrellion works as advertised; the planet's gone, congratulations. You got exactly what you asked for and what was advertised. No-one's going to (or should, anyway) complain that doing so didn't unlock a secret, fourth color of ant born from the irradiated husk of Myrellion, with its own NPCs and missions and dialogue. (this is also my attitude toward, say, betraying Arona; you get exactly what any reasonable person would expect to get, and what you're literally told you'll get, and you get it by directly violating the core premise of the quest; it's hardly a let-down unless your mind works in very strange ways, and more surprising that the option exists at all).

A better comparison would be the political situation on Myrellion. This is at the core of the area's missions and atmosphere, the heart of its elevator pitch, and while Steele can influence the struggle between Reds and Golds in all sorts of ways, these are largely reflected in the player's own experiences and the PC's relationship with different NPCs, not in concrete changes to the actual setting. I kind of doubt that Steele is ever going to have the ability to decisively settle the Red-Gold struggle one way or another, because that'd require a staggering amount of work relative to the satisfaction it'd offer, but the player can still feel involved and feel like they're picking a side (or not) by helping out and cosying up to NPCs of either faction.

TL;DR: Steele can be expected win their personal conflicts, but he's not expected to shape world/galaxy politics by default like Hawke.

EDIT: Cleaned up my quote mine and added more context.

I've also realised that whenever I post a question in this subforum, the responses make me feel a bit stupid for not realising things before.

Take it from me: As long as you're smart and only bet your pride/ego, you'll regret it less if pestering the forum with your questions than if you never asked at all.

 

[Starstruck]

You're not (usually) deciding the fate of whole planets (or equivalent play-spaces

TL;DR: Steele can be expected win their personal conflicts, but he's not expected to shape world/galaxy politics by default like Hawke.

Tarkus, Myrellion, and Dhaal begs to differ, and all of these are probe related planets btw.

 

[LonelyHydra]

Tarkus, Myrellion, and Dhaal begs to differ, and all of these are probe related planets btw.

Oh? Could you explain how Steele shapes the world politics around him, rather than his personal relationships? Not afraid of spoilers.

 

[TheShepard256]

Oh? Could you explain how Steele shapes the world politics around him, rather than his personal relationships? Not afraid of spoilers.

Aside from potentially destroying the former two, Steele can:

• Fund a treatment that will allow future generations of raskvel (or at least the ones in Novahome) to be less breed-hungry and much more capable of innovating by themselves, which will likely lead to them gaining significantly more socio-political influence in the future and no longer live in the gabilani's shadow. (BTW, this is mutually exclusive with blowing up Tarkus.)
• Participate in several sidequests that would likely have an influence on how the Myr War is resolved. The two most notable ones are:
  • Fazian's Quest. After completing the quest, Fazian decides he's not going to stay silent on his experiences, and regardless of if the quest is completed or failed, there's the potential for the Anatae Empire to get involved. Not starting the quest at all won't change anything.
  • Federation Quest. At the end, Steele can either capture Estallia and her forces, let them go or relocate them to Jitafore or Mhen'ga. Letting them go will likely mean they'll continue to wage war on the Federation, while the other two options prevent them from doing that in very different ways (one pro-Federation, the other less so).
• Decide whether or not the bothrioc form a government at all. Without that, the species will almost certainly not be recognised as sapient, opening them up to exploitation with no legal protections.
• Marry, subjugate or kill Taivra (or leave her alone). The marriage one is particularly important since the marriage includes a promise that Steele will use Steele Tech's resources to aid Taivra and her kingdom.
• Catch the eye of the CEO of one of the zaibatsu. The way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if Steele's actions could tip the balance of power on Dhaal in favour of a zaibatsu of their choice, which would have massive implications for the planet as a whole.

And on other planets, Steele can:

• Interfere in a conflict between a zil tribe and a mega-corp, which results in either one side driving away the other or the tribe opening negotiations with Esbeth, the latter of which will likely lead to the zil becoming the dominant species of Mhen'ga.
• Potentially save Korg'ii Hold from Eitan's Pyrite-sponsored tribe of milodans, which results in Ula (who's more positive towards aliens and tech than most others in the hold) becoming chief and the elders of Eitan's tribe becoming even more distrustful of offworlders and their tech.
• Romance the Frostwyrm and get a frostwyrm TF made. While this itself is completely apolitical, Steele does reveal to Lessau that frostywrms are sapient, which causes Steele Tech and RhenWorld to begin the process of opening dialogue with them.

 

[Starstruck]

Oh? Could you explain how Steele shapes the world politics around him, rather than his personal relationships? Not afraid of spoilers.

@TheShepard256 already made my point while I was sleeping, and quite admirably so I might add. xD

 

[Ireyon]

So, Savin has made his distaste for power fantasies quite clear, and this distaste is why CoC2 was designed from the beginning not to be one.

Being able to wrestle minotaurs, beat up literal demons and wield various powers on a quest to unfuck/fuck the world with your battle harem isn't supposed to be a power fantasy?

I mean I understand that TiTs has a different scope and the consequences are larger (looking at you exploding planets) but a power fantasy is just wielding much more influence and power than you'd normally have access to. Scale has nothing to do with it. Imagining yourself in your boss' shoes is already a power fantasy even if your boss is a perfectly normal human being outside of his position of authority.

Maybe Savin just dislikes power fantasies that are too extreme? I do think that the smaller scope of CoC2 lends itself to a more fleshed out world since you can focus on only one world with one set of define rules. Games are naturally limited by the medium and rules applied. It's not realistic for a character to roflstomp a behemoth ten times his size just because he has a higher number over his head and some games let you kill god(s) with significantly less effort or consequences than I'd expect. At the same time I dislike the Dark Souls design because, well, if the starting enemies can still kill me relatively easily at the end of the game then were exactly has my progress and growth gone? That's ignoring the fact that at some point fighting those same starter enemies is just busywork.

 

[Stemwinder]

We're looking at the wrong ideas here when it comes to what a power fantasy fundamentally is.

Saving the world or any other thing you might try to put on a checklist are just symptoms, they don't -need- to be there and don't define what it is (or isn't!) because they're all incidental - that is, they're an expression of the power fantasy, not the fantasy itself. All of the Fenoxo and Savin games are power fantasies, of course, they're designed to be, but that's not an inherently good or bad thing. What the thing is should be thought of as a particular framework that assigns importance to the player character and then presents them with the means to overwhelmingly gain desirable things through affirming means (for boys, and therefore games aimed at boys, that's usually conquest). In a game that revolves around sex the symptoms of a power fantasy at the core of the concept will often be simple and apparent: there's little to no risk of being rejected. So it's not in a particular flavor, it's the more building-block aspect that dictates how the encounters go - so even if the game is written to cater very heavily to fans of submissive content, for example, it's still a power fantasy because everyone you meet is so taken that they can't help but what to dom the crap out of your PC. That in effect makes your PC an absurdly powerful sub, doesn't it?

TiTS is very transparently one because the whole game is presented to you as your own personal sexual sandbox. Other characters may be scraping by, and it may seem far too harsh to be a fantasy, but Captain Steele Jr. is an elite vacationing in the much tougher lives of these other characters and using them as sexual entertainment. Everything in the game is there to enable this for you. CoC2 is like this, too, the main character might be less special from the perspective of the setting but in looking at how the narrative is structured you won't see other, better heroes showing up to take this quest away from you, you're not likely to run into a situation where your PC is simply not a character's type even if you mess around with alchemy, and things you're allowed to do are going to be a means to bringing about an overwhelmingly lucrative outcome. No one's going to think your character is a creep for trying to have a harem and start avoiding you, a choice you make isn't going to put the thing you want out of your reach, and your efforts aren't going to go to waste.

So what Savin is saying isn't that he wants to write an anti-power fantasy; it's that he doesn't want his to be one that lays everything at your character's feet the way TiTS did. There are different ways to go about it and he likes those that put you through the ringer and at times make you choose between things you want rather than allowing you to overpower that sort of mutual exclusivity with the power of Main Character Specialness.

 

[LonelyHydra]

@TheShepard256 already made my point while I was sleeping, and quite admirably so I might add. xD

And I greatly appreciate it. May my embarrassment spur my development of reading comprehension skills.

they're an expression of the power fantasy, not the fantasy itself. All of the Fenoxo and Savin games are power fantasies, of course, they're designed to be, but that's not an inherently good or bad thing. What the thing is should be thought of as a particular framework that assigns importance to the player character and then presents them with the means to overwhelmingly gain desirable things through affirming means (for boys, and therefore games aimed at boys, that's usually conquest). In a game that revolves around sex the symptoms of a power fantasy at the core of the concept will often be simple and apparent: there's little to no risk of being rejected.

So put another way, an RPG becomes a power fantasy when a player feels in control of their PC's narrative; the power is literally in the player's hands.

And there's a thought: what if the PC was the one doing the rejecting? Even after trying a person out? Would that not be a power fantasy if the PC faces consequences? Or would it still be one since it was under the player's control?

 

[HeroicSpirit]

Okay, so does that mean Final Fantasy VII isn't a power fantasy? The game definitely has parts where the character you play loses all agency, and there is nothing you can do to prevent Aerith's death.

What about Majima's story in Yakuza 0? Naked Snake in Metal Gear Solid Snake-Eater? In fact, by the definition of some people here, none of the Metal Gear games besides maybe Revengance count as Power Fantasy, as they all feature sequences of disempowerment in them.

 

[Paradox01]

Here's the definition I found that, IMO, fits best.

A “Power Fantasy” is a somewhat derogatory term for stories where the hero is a stand in for the reader and displays an improbable amount of dominance. It's seen as wish fulfillment, escapism.

Basically, the hero is a Mary Sue. The classic example is the fanfic we've all read where the hero is a Jedi, Batman, Space Marine, ninja, Top Gun pilot, and master chef (cuz the ladies all love a man that can cook) rolled into one unstoppable and all-around swell guy.*

I don't see either CoC2 or TiTS as a Power Fantasy in that vein.



*I actually did read a piece of short fiction someone wrote for a PC he wanted to include in a SW RPG I was running who was a genetically-engineered Jedi super-sleuth with mad stealth and cooking skills. It still stands as the worst piece of hot garbage I've read in 47 years. And I've read the first Twilight book.

 

[Stemwinder]

So put another way, an RPG becomes a power fantasy when a player feels in control of their PC's narrative; the power is literally in the player's hands.

And there's a thought: what if the PC was the one doing the rejecting? Even after trying a person out? Would that not be a power fantasy if the PC faces consequences? Or would it still be one since it was under the player's control?

It's more that the narrative itself is built, behind the scenes, to foster their importance, give them the exact sort of super-agency that would be highly desirable for the type of game that it is, and do very little to thwart the player's attempts to exercise it.

Using an NPC for sex or relationship thrills and then throwing them away, never to be heard from again, is a design in service of letting the player exercise that super-agency. If that NPC were to come back and sabotage your quest somehow, to the point where something you really want as a player is now out of reach, it would be suggestive of a game that's built with the idea that the player take thoughtful actions rather than do whatever they like and be richly rewarded for it.

Or let's change the genre of CoC2: now it's a dating sim and there are two different approaches. One takes it as a matter of course that all the heroines, whether they be boys or girls, are interested in your hero, the player character, and spending time with them is basically the only requirement for getting what you want. There may be different endings, some better than others, but fundamentally the design principle is if you're interested in them they'll also be interested in you and you can get what you want from them by doing the things you want to do to them. The other tries to simulate a relationship: you have to make an impression on them, you have to approach them in a way that doesn't alienate them, and what you do may not lead to the outcome you want it to. Let's say in the Ryn route spoiling her doesn't make her more confident, it just makes her more dependent on your affections and approval, and to get the confident Ryn you want, one who can stand on her own, you can't just hug and cuddle her till she's all better. You can still get what you want but the design principle is for them to be interested in you you're going to need to be interesting to them and doing what you want only guarantees that momentary thrill.

Does that clear up how a power fantasy approach is distinct from a different one?

 

[Stemwinder]

Okay, so does that mean Final Fantasy VII isn't a power fantasy? The game definitely has parts where the character you play loses all agency, and there is nothing you can do to prevent Aerith's death.

What about Majima's story in Yakuza 0? Naked Snake in Metal Gear Solid Snake-Eater? In fact, by the definition of some people here, none of the Metal Gear games besides maybe Revengance count as Power Fantasy, as they all feature sequences of disempowerment in them.

Final Fantasy VII was pretty different at the time for thwarting the super-agency players had come to expect! Sometimes characters would die in JRPGs that came before it but very rarely would it be because you the player failed to protect them. In fact during the scene in question the villain very nearly forces you to do it yourself by taking control of Cloud away from you! Much of Final Fantasy 7's plot is about a person who isn't one of those main character-like heroes trying to be one, so it plays around with that sort of thing.

So does Metal Gear Solid. The second one is very explicitly about a player-avatar who admires the cool power fantasy hero and goes on his very own mission to try to become someone like him only to discover how little agency he truly has in that position. Even the design premise of the games themselves (that you should be avoiding fights, not looking for them) is tailored toward playing thoughtfully, considering your actions and approaching each section more like a puzzle than a shooter.

Most games will be empowering in some way but the difference in approach is in giving you free license to use it indiscriminately vs. encouraging or forcing you to put thought into how you use it.

 

[LonelyHydra]

It's more that the narrative itself is built, behind the scenes, to foster their importance, give them the exact sort of super-agency that would be highly desirable for the type of game that it is, and do very little to thwart the player's attempts to exercise it.

Using an NPC for sex or relationship thrills and then throwing them away, never to be heard from again, is a design in service of letting the player exercise that super-agency. If that NPC were to come back and sabotage your quest somehow, to the point where something you really want as a player is now out of reach, it would be suggestive of a game that's built with the idea that the player take thoughtful actions rather than do whatever they like and be richly rewarded for it.

Or let's change the genre of CoC2: now it's a dating sim and there are two different approaches. One takes it as a matter of course that all the heroines, whether they be boys or girls, are interested in your hero, the player character, and spending time with them is basically the only requirement for getting what you want. There may be different endings, some better than others, but fundamentally the design principle is if you're interested in them they'll also be interested in you and you can get what you want from them by doing the things you want to do to them. The other tries to simulate a relationship: you have to make an impression on them, you have to approach them in a way that doesn't alienate them, and what you do may not lead to the outcome you want it to. Let's say in the Ryn route spoiling her doesn't make her more confident, it just makes her more dependent on your affections and approval, and to get the confident Ryn you want, one who can stand on her own, you can't just hug and cuddle her till she's all better. You can still get what you want but the design principle is for them to be interested in you you're going to need to be interesting to them and doing what you want only guarantees that momentary thrill.

Does that clear up how a power fantasy approach is distinct from a different one?

Crystal. I didn't mean to imply that I seriously disagreed with you, my thinking just went more philosophical and meta (I found your MGS2 comparison quite amusing). A few extra points:

-There's always a gap between player and player character, especially if the game is played long enough that players understand the causality of their actions. For some, roleplay trumps thoughtfulness. And decidedly works better if it's not designed as a power fantasy.

-Broken hearts make great fodder for corruption writing

 

[Savin]

there is nothing you can do to prevent Aerith's death.

WOW, SPOILERS.

 

[Ireyon]

WOW, SPOILERS.

To be fair he's wrong.

Spoiler

The FF7 remake has you literally alter history. So yes, in all likelihood you can prevent Aerith's death now.