The oddity of depiction of virginity loss

Tamsee

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Having in my life seen quite a few nsfw games, videos, comics and works of fiction in general it only now stirred in my mind to vocalize this commonly repeated trope: first time being all about pain for women. I can't help but ask, why is it so often repeated?

Not a lot of research is needed to tell that the presence of pain during first time isn't a necessity. Instead, it is usually caused by at least these factors:
  1. the woman heard it pains and braces for it, being tense and thus uncomfortable when penetrated
  2. the man is also new to this and by various reasons often from second source thinks the right way is to go all in on first thrust (or was never convinced otherwise)
  3. lack of foreplay resulting in little lubrication and no loss of tension
Having omitted these errors the only striking incident will be the breaking of hymen (if present), a membrane that lacks nervous system, and possibility of blood (not always). I won't bother making assumptions about repetition of the trope in works causing a self-fulfilling prophecy in next generations, since likewise one could check for facts. But, did it really become so expected among audience (or percieved by creators as a rule of thumb) that it seems ridiculous to change the tale?
 
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Evil

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From an anthropological standpoint, the loss of virginity is one of the keypoints in a person's life. I mean, it is still a major point that our society revolves around, even if we don't say it in as many words. Yes, its all "sex, sex, sex", but there's a rarely discussed point about virginity, other than if you're still over over a certain age (depending where you are), you're something of a loser.

Most of the time, when someone loses their virginity, its a fumbling effort, where someone is apologising and trying to clean up a little earlier than expected. No one talks to younger people about the need for foreplay and why taking a day or so for foreplay makes sex even more fun.

And with regards to the idea of pain during the first time, its less to do with the breaking of the hymen and more to do with the vagina (theoretically) being unused to the shape of the penis, as well as, if her partner is also a virgin, then chances are, he's kinda brute forcing it (not literally, but you can understand that during a first time, a guy isn't going to know the best position for his partner, everything else comes from experience).

But from a storytelling aspect, its wish fulfilment. Everyone wants to have their genitals fawned over (well, there are some people who liked getting humiliated, not my thing but they do them). In a strange way, if the virgin looks at the guy's dick and she shows a little fear, it kinda boosts the guy's ego. Everything about the fantasy of taking someone's virginity is a form of wish fulfilment: "Its so big!" or "It did hurt a little bit, but now it's starting to feel better!". And if you feel metal enough, hey, you got blood over your dick. Throw the horns.

And at the end of the day though, its a porn game trope. Its something players expect - much like someone having monster dicks and fighting monster dicks.
 

ScarletteKnight

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Yeah, most vagina-weilders I've met say it shouldn't hurt unless something is wrong, and anal certainly didn't hurt for me like I'd heard it would. Evil is pretty spot-on with it being due to ignorance, I'd say.
 
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Tamsee

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All true. It is nevertheless a curious case from the perspective of the writer. I suppose with it being as common a concept and the likelihood of the, as you said, wish fulfillment on the part of one doing penetration, it is much easier for the creator to base the interaction on this, with more expectable results.

At the same time, albeit more challenging to make it seemingly natural and not overly long, describing the opposite situation could be quite as rewarding, that of a tender lover who shows that he/she (strap-on or herm) cares for the woman's first time.
 
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Tinman

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I have to assume that every porn MC having a monster sized dick plays at least some part. When the guy is twice the size most girls can handle there's probably going to be more pain than usual.
 

Tamsee

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Oh no doubt. I guess it'd be better if I did say it is more in regard to sizes that would allow some preparation for comfort. Then again, any porn like that pretty much sets for pain to begin with and thus caters to the trope, no buts.
 

Magic Ted

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It's not really how a vagina works at all, no, but for some reason the thought of a hymen just being some sort of plastic cover over the juicy bits has been so falsely ingrained into everyone's heads that seeing anything else just doesn't work. Kinda like jizz being stored in the ballz, really.

Now it's become the fantasy. Nothing really should happen unless you're bad at it, which in a porn game no one is bad at it, but having the first time be this conquest and titanic event is just the appeal - with the penetrator knowing they got "dibs" too.

Really this is a lot more indicative of sexual education then anything else!
 
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Tamsee

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Now that you mention it, in this country sexual education in my Jr High only included topics like hygiene and risks, mostly out of fear that the church and parents might be outraged about teaching teenagers something intimate. And even this caused the former to keep trying to slam down on it and remove sexual education from teaching entirely.

In the end people do search for nsfw works to sate an itch rather than learn and an author needs an audience.
 

ScarletteKnight

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Fair enough, but I'm from America, and my "sex ed" was literally just some crone who'd never gotten laid telling us to fear sex like the plague.
 

Evil

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Heh, funnily enough, our sex-ed teacher in school was a former seminary student who had gotten married, had kids and actually gave us a comprehensive education, which included debunking some myths about sex. One of which was the idea that breaking the hymen would be painful. The truth is that the hymen is a thin piece of tissue, with few if any nerve endings. If the hymen is broken, there's actually more often then not no bleeding.

Go the Irish education system.

Back to the topic at hand, everything concerning virginity in porn games all relates to a power fantasy. Its something to be claimed, brutally if needs be from some of what the characters say. Its why characters like Fisianna in TiTS can become popular. Yes, they're virgins and yes, you're going to claim their virginity, but by the same token, its something that is built up and led into, gently if needs be.
 
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Tamsee

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Considering that power is what often gets attached to the image of masculinity, and vice versa put on pedestal as something to be sought after in a mate, this could potentially go on for many generations yet, especially given image builing pressure from industries. Also leads to a rather pessimistic answer to the question I started with. Can we imagine a scenario where loss of virginity is pleasant? Most likely. But it may quite well fail to be recognized by another person as such.

The more worrisome thought is that there are cultures and groups which take it further, expecting something hard enough to persecute situations that failed to live up to the image of proper first night - but that would be a discussion for ages.
 

Stemwinder

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There's a very very very slim basis but the origins of this old thing are rooted in common practices back then. To put it bluntly: young brides, arranged marriages, not much thought or care given to her comfort or pleasure. Consummating the marriage would be a pretty nerve-wracking thing for a teenager marrying someone twice her age and the pain was much more likely to come from her not being lubricated enough. When everything goes smoothly there's no reason for it to be painful; the vagina is very stretchy and when lubricated there won't be much abrasive friction. Put that together with a pervasive taboo on female sexuality (meaning those young girls simply weren't told much about it by their mothers - this persisted and even still persists) and you have a recipe for unnecessarily clumsy - and potentially painful - sex.

But the idea that losing your virginity will be painful lingers in no small part because men like that narrative. As Evil mentioned guys like to phrase the whole thing as a conquest (it's part of why something as meaningless as virginity is commodified in women) and it invokes the sadistic undercurrent that runs through many avenues of popular male sexuality. Imagery that men tend to find erotic - huge dicks and women gagging on them, for instance - often involves making things slightly to moderately painful for women. Basically a lot of men want it to hurt her a bit when they take someone's virginity (whether it's done gently or roughly) because the whole rigamarole of her bracing herself and bearing it gets them going.
 

Tamsee

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But the idea that losing your virginity will be painful lingers in no small part because men like that narrative. As Evil mentioned guys like to phrase the whole thing as a conquest (it's part of why something as meaningless as virginity is commodified in women) and it invokes the sadistic undercurrent that runs through many avenues of popular male sexuality. Imagery that men tend to find erotic - huge dicks and women gagging on them, for instance - often involves making things slightly to moderately painful for women. Basically a lot of men want it to hurt her a bit when they take someone's virginity (whether it's done gently or roughly) because the whole rigamarole of her bracing herself and bearing it gets them going.

I'd refrain from declarations of intentionality of pain in this case. Even if the general idea in upbringing is that men have to be tough and empathy being for the weak, overall especially in love there is striving towards showing your feelings and care in many ways. That there is rough treatment can be attributed to a lot of things. Peer pressure, ignorance, misinformation, unpleasant upbringing to name the few. Last one though may come to what you described and it can be quite a big influence in regard to how one treats the opposite sex. Do many men like the narrative of domination? Quite a lot indicates it to be true. Doesn't exactly mean they wouldn't enjoy other kinds of approach as well. Besides, domination and inflicting pain aren't on the same level, once it comes to the act of sex.
 

Kesil

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young brides, arranged marriages, not much thought or care given to her comfort or pleasure.
This could be a good reason, yep.

Imagery that men tend to find erotic - huge dicks and women gagging on them, for instance - often involves making things slightly to moderately painful for women.
Generalizations about males aside, this is something I really dislike when it comes to smutty materials. I want my erotica to seem enjoyable, not something that makes me wince. Different strokes for different folks indeed, but the way most materials focus on such is underwhelming, just like how the ones focusing on care and happiness seem to be populated by Miss Blush-chan (perhaps going along what Magic Ted said).
 

Stemwinder

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I'd refrain from declarations of intentionality of pain in this case. Even if the general idea in upbringing is that men have to be tough and empathy being for the weak, overall especially in love there is striving towards showing your feelings and care in many ways. That there is rough treatment can be attributed to a lot of things. Peer pressure, ignorance, misinformation, unpleasant upbringing to name the few. Last one though may come to what you described and it can be quite a big influence in regard to how one treats the opposite sex. Do many men like the narrative of domination? Quite a lot indicates it to be true. Doesn't exactly mean they wouldn't enjoy other kinds of approach as well. Besides, domination and inflicting pain aren't on the same level, once it comes to the act of sex.
It's something that people understandably find uncomfortable to discuss openly but the less obvious reason why is that it's not widely understood. So many men -needing- to feel dominant at all times, to a downright silly degree, for the sake of their egos is one thing but the reasons behind that undercurrent, why there's so much blatant and subtle sadism when it comes to the most popular forms seen in male sexuality, have to do with feedback response.

Inflicting pain with the phallus, a little or a lot, -is- the conquering act, to despoil that which is pristine. For her to wince or even bleed confirms that her virginity has been taken, a concept that's only important (or erotic) in this narrative if she makes it unambiguous. After all, if she really doesn't make any special reaction he begins to doubt: did I -really- claim her, could she have already done this with someone else, am I not good enough to get that reaction? Even outside of the specific virginity context this is the basic beat of it. Porn with ahegao is doing it, too, the damage inflicted there is to her psyche (even the cliche dialogue is usually, in that on-the-nose way porn is written, spelling it out for you that her brains are literally being fucked out of her) and the vacant glazed over expression is the reaction that confirms it. It falls under the umbrella of this idea that men corrupt women with sex, that they inflict it upon them and that the scars left (physical in the taking of their virginity, mental in fucking them out of higher brain functions) reflect the man's virility back to him. That's the core of any "conquering act", it doesn't work without the idea of inflicting pain.

The exact mechanics of it just make the whole corruption narrative that much sillier to me.
 

Kesil

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Porn with ahegao is doing it, too, the damage inflicted there is to her psyche (even the cliche dialogue is usually, in that on-the-nose way porn is written, spelling it out for you that her brains are literally being fucked out of her) and the vacant glazed over expression is the reaction that confirms it. It falls under the umbrella of this idea that men corrupt women with sex
Though I like the ideas of "brain drain" or corruption/moral degeneration (and I'm okay with ahegao), I rarely -if ever- see males on that role or females just going for sex without being x or y. And then there's the issue of how having sex is seen as the worst crime ever... or not having sex (for whichever reason or none at all!) being seen as laughable.

As much I like Fengames, I dislike TiTS' "if you follow your smutty interests, you'll be done for" or CoC's "(kinky) sex is evil" approaches. I do aknowledge it seems to be a way to "punish" players for being selfish. Which could be seen as a way of power play, I guess.
 
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Tamsee

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Regarding many of the described situations of conquering I cannot help but notice that much of this is a concept gained by the man from this group through contact with secondary source, like creative works of other people. A man without concept implanted wouldn't know what subscribes to the idea of successful conquest. The feeling of own pleasure would be the driving point. Usually without initial realization that the man left the woman unsatisfied due to first the pain and then a likely quick end.

That is to say, 'screwing the senses out of person' and similar don't necessarily translate to pain or the feeling of breaking someone. To each their own of course, but people try to have fun and someone skilled in bringing pleasure is more likely to be more successful, a trope also quite popular, that of scoring high.
 

Grimoire

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I, too, find the oddity of virginity loss baffling. I'm actually working off of Evil's first post to give clarification as what i'm talking about:

From an anthropological standpoint, the loss of virginity is one of the keypoints in a person's life. I mean, it is still a major point that our society revolves around, even if we don't say it in as many words. Yes, its all "sex, sex, sex", but there's a rarely discussed point about virginity, other than if you're still over over a certain age (depending where you are), you're something of a loser.

Most of the time, when someone loses their virginity, its a fumbling effort, where someone is apologising and trying to clean up a little earlier than expected. No one talks to younger people about the need for foreplay and why taking a day or so for foreplay makes sex even more fun.

And with regards to the idea of pain during the first time, its less to do with the breaking of the hymen and more to do with the vagina (theoretically) being unused to the shape of the penis, as well as, if her partner is also a virgin, then chances are, he's kinda brute forcing it (not literally, but you can understand that during a first time, a guy isn't going to know the best position for his partner, everything else comes from experience).

But from a storytelling aspect, its wish fulfilment. Everyone wants to have their genitals fawned over (well, there are some people who liked getting humiliated, not my thing but they do them). In a strange way, if the virgin looks at the guy's dick and she shows a little fear, it kinda boosts the guy's ego. Everything about the fantasy of taking someone's virginity is a form of wish fulfilment: "Its so big!" or "It did hurt a little bit, but now it's starting to feel better!". And if you feel metal enough, hey, you got blood over your dick. Throw the horns.

And at the end of the day though, its a porn game trope. Its something players expect - much like someone having monster dicks and fighting monster dicks.

Just putting it out there, i'm bi-sexual and lost my v-card with a best friend (male), who at the time was a virgin (among other things that we won't talk about it).

But what I've learned growing up in a rural Florida area, the stigma of masculinity is that anything girly or flamboyant behavior is seen as "unmanly" and deemed to be a black mark sign of the plague in the same vein as "he's is unworthy of your golden cunt!" Anything that deviated from the mindset are also of the kind of homophobic people that are sure to treat you like a leper for being a non-straight person. With this in mind for context to where i'm taking this:

The people I've known that are virgins were scared into believing that their feelings of being intimate with their feeling with their partners was considered unmanly and uncouth and that their fathers, brothers, uncles and other types of male role models tell them to be as down-and-dirty as they can get. Either it was intentional or not, my parent's generation shifted after my generation in a weird way in which virginity is treated as a trend, a fad, or something that's less important as people begin "coming out of the closet" and declaring themselves publicly as gay, trans-gendered, lesbian or associated. The original mindset was "This is the holiest of holy you're playing with, boy! Fuck them like a real man!!" to "Oh, you're a virgin? That's fine, i guess? Can i continue now or are we done here?"

When i lost my v-card together with my ex, we were understandably nervous about it and it felt better than i thought it would have which essentially had broken the mold on what i thought the treatment of virginity was meant to be like. I thought i had to be a burly man, i have to get down into the dirt and grime and plow that rich grove soil and plant my seed into that fertile womb! But when i i lost my v-card, it was just me and him in a hot tub talking and leading to a freeing moment that we were actually able to express how we felt as friends which he climbed on top and got to work. The intimacy was there and it was palpable, there wasn't aggressive hair pulling or forcing my manhood into them, calling them a dirty butt slut it was just a calm, sensual experience that didn't need the words to express our love and comfort in each other's presence.

There was a sense of obligation, when we had sex, where i wondered if this is what it was like to no longer being a virgin - too scared to be yourself and that changing yourself to fulfill the arcane justification of masculinity for us men. It felt wrong that i had to fit the bill of being the ideal man, that what i wanted to do was wrong and i was shamed for wanting to do it that way. I chalk it up to growing up with really mean assholes that never got laid or never stayed together with a person more than two weeks, but these ideas of power fantasies where we have to treat sex as a game that needs to be won instead of being gentle and patient about sends the wrong message. The generation i'm watching now has been ostracized and castrated.

Women from #MeToo and the Neo-Feminism movement are formed by enraged by the treatment of "men", LGBT takes a backseat, policies are reformed to suit the public outcries of a movement that adds toxicity and fuels distrust in relationships between men and women. Men aren't allowed to be gentlemen anymore, flirting in the workplace is seen as a form of sexual harassment, and i think it stems from my previous generation being overzealous about power fantasies in the bedroom that eventually lead to the new generation being so polarized and emasculated to how to take sex and taking someone's virginity. Just listening to my co-workers talk about sex with a few partners younger than them talking about how they don't care if the guy takes their v-card or an extreme case: one co-worker being a virgin doesn't want to have sex with any woman because of how public views have since changed to where women will put them in jail or not being good enough for them.

Obviously, my co-worker is out of his mind for thinking this but it got me thinking: if our sons in elementary school are being expected to be like their girl classmates and their treatment to be more feminine, what's that doing to people like my co-worker when he sees a woman he wants to be with? The tables have flipped.

We have gone past the foreplay and we're paying for it because we didn't teach our younger generation to be more intimate and actually giving a real heart-to-heart talk about sexual without all the sugarcoating and the cold calculative clinical terminology. We've grown up through trial and error, there wasn't a book to teach us the proper way to be regardless what the damn Church says, nobody knew what they were doing and we've procrastinate around the issue long enough. We've taught the new generation enough of the wrong things that they don't know what the fuck to do and we don't know how to help them because even we haven't figured it out.

There's men and women out there in the world in their fifties and sixties still virgins that were treated like garbage and ashamed while some were treated like gods placed on a pedestal but fail to understand why they were placed there in the first place. Virginity IS an important issue deeply rooted but never talked about because it is TABOO and it is because of that, nobody bothered to changed the rules of tropes we seen in porn, movies or video games. It's going to stay like that until someone has the balls (or tits) to bring up the topic and force people to talk about it without hamfisting Political Correctness down our fucking throats.

Again, sorry for the rant. This was i topic i wanted to talk about for a long time but never found a reason to.
 

Kesil

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Virginity IS an important issue deeply rooted
I can't see it as an important issue myself, or one to deem to with terms like "v-card" (it reminds me of people who deem genitals as "junk"). To me, it's just hymen tearing (that may already be torn from, say, horse riding or gymnastics) and lack of experience. Personally -again-, I loathe virgin shaming as much as I dislike slut shaming, especially when paired with concepts like "immaturity", "naivety/innocence", "lack of purity/morality", "hahaha you're a nerd/prude"... Some are applied to females, some are applied to males and some to both. Sex or lack of it won't make problems go away or radically change one's personality. And I was never keen on "virgin sacrifice"/"virgin power" stories.
 
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BasedBuckNasty

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Lol. I looked it up, there are apparently only two mammals with hymens. Which, ironically does make you pretty special. I mean, I did some rando thought about this when I was drunk or whatever. Why was the hymen even installed in the first place? I mean, it was pretty nifty back in the day when it was a fairly good guarantor that at least from this moment the children are most likely yours. Afterwards, of course all bets are off. These days there are DNA tests and whatnot.
 

Tamsee

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There likely is no point of a hymen in humans at this point - maybe back in the distant past there was something? The only case where it would really prevent bacterial infection (bacterial flora present doing much of that aside) is with imperforate ones... and those are actually a health risk.

I would also like to thank you, Grimoire, for your point of view and experiences. It's alright to throw all that did well up in your chest, else such a topic would be more a scientific droning. The problem with trying to press on people to discuss a topic many consider taboo, especially nowadays, is the ease with which new topics appear, everyone bringing them demanding priority - many of them far easier to throw one's lot behind and, given their immediate consequences, far more serious to one's mind. It nevertheless is one that does shape up groups of people, even though it really shouldn't, when one considers the benefits of early knowledge. And the frustration that stems from unresolved issues can have dire consequences later.

In my country there are literally people who consider or commit suicide because they wanted to follow catholic church's words in love and family-building so hard, they ended up in their 40s alone, in virginity and afraid to mention it to their local community, because they'd be ostracized for doubting the words of an old man who has as much knowledge about family as a child. Since they try to stick to the "true to faith" groups, even on internet, trying to talk about such matters results in mockery. Although communities around the church are supposed to be supportive, it fermented into 'supportive for the clergy'. Yes, such places on Earth exist.

Looking up, quite a few possible culprits on the state of media depiction popped up. Unsurprisingly they all may well be true. And yet, it does make one wonder: if one works in creative industry for porn, how much does their own knowledge matter and how much do the voices of customers. I did see some productions where people paying the most did get to call the shots on where the game should go. In one case it did become a rather abusive relationship builder with great focus of men taking control over female protagonist, treating her as they want, or her helping them treat another woman that way. So much so that although it was tagged to contain also lesbian content, it went out the window at some point.
 

Grimoire

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There likely is no point of a hymen in humans at this point - maybe back in the distant past there was something? The only case where it would really prevent bacterial infection (bacterial flora present doing much of that aside) is with imperforate ones... and those are actually a health risk.

I would also like to thank you, Grimoire, for your point of view and experiences. It's alright to throw all that did well up in your chest, else such a topic would be more a scientific droning. The problem with trying to press on people to discuss a topic many consider taboo, especially nowadays, is the ease with which new topics appear, everyone bringing them demanding priority - many of them far easier to throw one's lot behind and, given their immediate consequences, far more serious to one's mind. It nevertheless is one that does shape up groups of people, even though it really shouldn't, when one considers the benefits of early knowledge. And the frustration that stems from unresolved issues can have dire consequences later.

In my country there are literally people who consider or commit suicide because they wanted to follow catholic church's words in love and family-building so hard, they ended up in their 40s alone, in virginity and afraid to mention it to their local community, because they'd be ostracized for doubting the words of an old man who has as much knowledge about family as a child. Since they try to stick to the "true to faith" groups, even on internet, trying to talk about such matters results in mockery. Although communities around the church are supposed to be supportive, it fermented into 'supportive for the clergy'. Yes, such places on Earth exist.

Looking up, quite a few possible culprits on the state of media depiction popped up. Unsurprisingly they all may well be true. And yet, it does make one wonder: if one works in creative industry for porn, how much does their own knowledge matter and how much do the voices of customers. I did see some productions where people paying the most did get to call the shots on where the game should go. In one case it did become a rather abusive relationship builder with great focus of men taking control over female protagonist, treating her as they want, or her helping them treat another woman that way. So much so that although it was tagged to contain also lesbian content, it went out the window at some point.

You're welcome. Although, that was merely to express the fact that i have never been with a woman when i took someone's virginity. Never actually had an opportunity to lay with a woman still in possession of their hymen, which is considered normal given the age group.

On to other subjects, I've seen people going though those suicidal tendencies before as well. That's probably on of these the biggest shocks about sexuality and one's own intimacy that i find so baffling about it! It's crazy that a man is willing to hang himself for having sex or losing his virginity; a woman so devoted to the Church's ideals of purity of the body in order to have the perfect soul would willingly scorch her passage closed or a man castrating himself to prove their worth. It's these things that baffle me and then there's the side of it where virginity is a disease curable by having lots and lots of sex. I find it hard to believe that a woman who maintained her virginity most of her life would suddenly have six men "break her in" and never felt pain or left blood; the dramatic shift of mindset of the two is far-fetched enough as it is.

Even though Porn is a fantasy, its the single most watched media in existence that we imitate. If you say you don't try to mimic what you see in porn, you're lying to yourself and to this forums because we all have tried mounting someone up against the wall or fucked in different positions meant for the camera angles. If you think about Porn, beneath the glamour and the fake tits, you'd see that these were the ideas of people growing up thinking that "that" was sexy, "that" was intimacy, "that" was the norm, "that" was the best way to make lots and lots of money for little to no effort on budget. It isn't so much as someone is getting paid more than everyone else that get to call the shot, its more like "what's the best idea we can think of" that everyone can agree would make money.

Sex sells and in any industry, if you can't like your own product then you're not going to last very long. I tell people the same way when writing sex scenes for their Event Submissions that if they don't think their material is sexy enough and they can't get a boner from it, they're not doing it right. Most things are better when you work with what you know, don't stepped too far from your comfort zone until you first get comfortable taking baby steps in the "deeper end of the pool". That's why porn lack the intimacy and the acting is so fucking terrible - they're not comfortable, they're clumsy oafs, underpaid and overworked to fulfill a niche market. Changing ideas in the middle of production is bound to happen; filming and marketing a product as one thing as a way to lure suckers into click-baiting their videos, games or stories until they get into the thick of it and realize that they were falsely advertised. It happens.
 

Stemwinder

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Someone already said it, I think, but hymens are roughly on the level of old wives' tales as far as being "proof" of virginity. It's quite common to tear them with any sort of strenuous physical activity and they're a minor thing - you probably wouldn't even notice it. It's essentially a very small flap and with enough lubrication it's not even likely to bleed.

Losing your virginity is far less a physical act than one where you experience deeper intimacy with another person than you've ever felt before, it's learning what that's like. It's important in the sense that it can shape how you view sex for quite a while but not important in the sense that virginity itself is in any way important.
 

ScarletteKnight

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Also of note, some people who were sexually assaulted don't consider it a loss of virginity, since they did not have sex. It's a bit darker, but I think it's important for some people to be able to separate the two, and it helps to view virginity as something more than physical that can't be forcibly taken from them.
 

Evil

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Jul 18, 2017
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Bear in mind as well that many myths and traditions concerning virginity originate from times when it was dangerous for women to bear children, even more so if they weren't fully grown. Healthcare was non-existent and medical procedures to help the mother give birth invariably killed her (seriously, ancient cesarean sections were so brutal that doctors would only perform them if the mother was going to die anyway).

What would be the best way to ensure young women and girls didn't put themselves at risk? Build up the myth of the hymen and make the virginity something sacred. Unfortunately, this also gave rise to various legends about the power of a maiden's virginity.
 

Tamsee

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Mar 2, 2018
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Wouldn't be surprised if in the ancient times birth was less risky than in medieval. Standard treatment in medieval times included:
  1. Never talking about that because it obviously is a very private thing and the woman probably knows best.
  2. Woman was put alone in a room devoid of lights and surrounded by objects deemed to have connection with God.
  3. She was also told to pray and best make her peace with this world because she may die. Gee, thanks for ramping up the panic.
  4. Being told to write or vocalize your last will before birth certainly didn't help either.
  5. If anyone, only a midwife was there to help and those usually were available only for the rich families - and even then a midwife was someone who successfully gave birth before, even several times. So they only knew how things go when everything works alright.
  6. Oh and it was assumed vagina is an inverted penis. "It will be alright, we can handle ourselves just fine" says the priest.
It is true though that many of these myths from days long gone do still appear. Heck, if people still expect to learn that there was blood, all the more likely a learned couple would still end up doing the first time in a painful way, just to be safe.
 
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Grimoire

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Jun 15, 2018
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Wouldn't be surprised if in the ancient times birth was less risky than in medieval. Standard treatment in medieval times included:
  1. Never talking about that because it obviously is a very private thing and the woman probably knows best.
  2. Woman was put alone in a room devoid of lights and surrounded by objects deemed to have connection with God.
  3. She was also told to pray and best make her peace with this world because she may die. Gee, thanks for ramping up the panic.
  4. Being told to write or vocalize your last will before birth certainly didn't help either.
  5. If anyone, only a midwife was there to help and those usually were available only for the rich families - and even then a midwife was someone who successfully gave birth before, even several times. So they only knew how things go when everything works alright.
  6. Oh and it was assumed vagina is an inverted penis. "It will be alright, we can handle ourselves just fine" says the priest.
It is true though that many of these myths from days long gone do still appear. Heck, if people still expect to learn that there was blood, all the more likely a learned couple would still end up doing the first time in a painful way, just to be safe.

What a fascinating set of myths! I never actually knew any of this until now, I've always assumed they had some understanding of birthing through trial and error. I HAVE to add this to my book, lol, Grimdark stories are always fun to play with and this will be icing on the cake ... after some thorough research into the practices, of course.