Super duper spoiler about convocation of mirrors, but i have a question!

[Violyn]

Spoiler: CoM

So, during the event you discover that the gods are wraiths, ok, cool, cool, cool, okie dokie, SO, what if when Keros asks you for your soul, for "safekeeping", he means to eat it???? Now, I know they all agreed that eating souls is a bad thing, BUT, you're giving it to him willingly aren't you? and they're tasty, right?what's stopping him from doing that i wonder

 

[Tristan Black]

He might have other uses for the thing. You never know with tricksters.

 

[Violyn]

True that, but eventually, you'll be able to give it away to the other "gods" too. I wonder what they'll do with it

 

[Violyn]

Part of me agrees hahaha
The other... not so much. I think that, regardless of what they have done so far, everything they built was around a lie. Everything they've ever done, everything they've ever said. I'm not really saying that they're guilty or bad people because of what they did prior to taking the mantle of the old gods, but everything about it still bugs me. Not the story, so far it's fucking amazing, Savin and everyone else have done such a good job so far that i like the game more than trials already, and i've been playing trials for quite a few years longer than CoC2 or CoC.
I really hope that eventually, we'll be able to deal them (and i don't mean fight them or overthrow them or anything) in a different way other than just becoming their champion. Maybe even like a continuation of the story, after we deal with Kasyrra, or something like that. I'm telling you, this whole wraith thing the creators did for the game, is real gold for story writing, not that i have any, you know, authority or say in anything, but it's so goddamn good! I really hope there'll be more to the "seven", than just becoming their champions. I guess that, what i mean by all this, is that, this game is INSANE. If it was a book, it would be one of my favorite books ever, just because of it's potential storywise alone.

 

[TheShepard256]

Nareva argues that since she holds the position and duties of the original Nareva, that she has become the original Nareva. As such, it can be argued that the Seven are no longer wraiths, but proper deities and thus have no need to consume souls. While I disagree with Nareva's belief that she's become the original Nareva (at least in a literal interpretation), I'm personally unsure of which side of the "are they now truly deities" argument I fall on.

 

[Violyn]

Exactly, i'm more or less in the same position. Something that i noticed, especially with the whole conversation battle with Nareva, whether we want to or not, mentally speaking, the gods seem to be no different than anybody really, they just have a lot more power due to actually being wraiths, and the thing is, same as us, they are susceptible to everything we are, such as power hunger, or just straight up succumbing to other negative and dark drives and desires. Think about it, their consciousness is no older than a few hundred years old, Komari herself must be almost as old as they are. Who's to say they won't forsake their roles one day? After all, they might say they've become the mask, but that doesn't really mean anything, their personalities and who they are aren't bound to the meaning of who and what the gods are, because they aren't the gods themselves in the first place. It's all just make believe. Who's to say it won't all fall apart one day either? The champion themself knows their secret after all.

Edit: I have to say though, putting everything i've commented so far aside, i really want to try and trust them regardless; i really like the phrase "what is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort", and what i mean by that is, these gods know themselves what it is not to feel, and what it is to cause horror, and pain on others, because they ate the very people they caused those emotions on. So i'd like to trust them, i really do, but it still bothers me how much power they hold, and how they can exercise it on everyone else just because they want to, because they "feel bad". I wonder how that part of the story can develop.

 

[The Observer]

In Keros' case, it goes into the Hoshi no Tama, which is basically the agglomeration of every single soul of the kitsune people -- every one who has existed, exists, and as they come into existence, will join.

Nareva will use your soul to fuel the Well of Memory along with all others of her chosen, which is mentioned during the Convocation of Mirrors.

You are basically, what you eat. A glass that has a liquid poured into it becomes known as a glass of said liquid, and it suddenly becomes far more defined by the liquid it holds than the glass itself.

their personalities and who they are aren't bound to the meaning of who and what the gods are,

No, but they are bound to the expectations of what people think the gods were at the time, because that is what they were formed from; there was a feedback loop similar to how things work in Discworld where supernatural entities are defined by peoples' belief in them. And the actual gods, wherever they may have gone to, may not be what the people who remember them think they are, and that is a difference there that can be important.

There is evidence and idiosyncrasies about in the world to lend credence to the fact that the original gods did exist at some point -- consider my description of the Hoshi no Tama -- but this is not something that will be deeply explored during the game, because Savin wouldn't be able to resist the temptation of a "the old gods return" plotline and the game scope would spiral out of control.

 

[Violyn]

I get what you mean, but still, doesn't mean they're trapped to people's beliefs, right? They still have their own free will after all. If they decide they don't want to be gods anymore, that their job is done, and want to move on, they could, same as the old gods did, if they actually existed.

The example you just gave about being defined more by what you've become, more than what you once were, is really great to show where the gods stand at the moment in that point in time in the game world. but i'd like to add, they might have become one thing, but that doesn't stop them from having experiences and influences from other sources and become something else entirely later on, such is the way of change, it never really stops.

Real quick, i just want to say that i'm not disagreeing or anything, just commenting on everything everybody says because i really adore topics like these. I love exchanging ideas and seeing an author's point of view in their own artwork! And since what i'm commenting is about your own work, i really appreciate your input and your take on things!

Edit: Now, i know that the game is far, extremely far from ever being considered being done, but do you think there could be any chance of this game branching out into another game for example? Could be a place where the creators could let their intake and writing skills fly into a different main plot and not have to remain on the idea of CoC of demons run rampant corrupting the population and it's up to a hero to stop said demons?

 

[The Observer]

They still have their own free will after all.

Do they? And if so, how far on the spectrum does it lie?

Back when I was writing for Fall of Eden, there were entities who were embodiments of various natural forces, concepts, and beliefs. And while they could behave in a way that was contrary to their defined nature and had personalities, they still fell into certain behavioural patterns because of the way they drew power from the forces they personified. And in our current FoE tabletop campaign, where we're playing literal demigods, these serve as a very heavy tamper on how our characters are permitted to behave, despite having some measure of free will and agency. We can behave in opposition to our natures, but there are consequences to that. The more our demigod characters tap into the precepts and forces they are intended to represent, the harsher the consequences the GM is able to impose upon us for acting in opposition to them -- up to the point where such actions are no longer possible, vetoed by GM fiat because we've burned away so much of our human nature and individuality, the "demi" in "demigod".

What I'm trying to say is that free will isn't necessarily an all-or-nothing thing except in the strictest sense of the word.

 

[Violyn]

there were entities who were embodiments of various natural forces, concepts, and beliefs. And while they could behave in a way that was contrary to their defined nature and had personalities, they still fell into certain behavioural patterns because of the way they drew power from the forces they personified.

We can behave in opposition to our natures, but there are consequences to that. What I'm trying to say is that free will isn't necessarily an all-or-nothing thing except in the strictest sense of the word.

Hmm interesting, i think i get it. Did the new gods change, not only in mind, but in being too then? What i said before was assuming that they couldn't be trapped to the definition and nature of the old gods, because they were wraiths, they only imitated the old gods meaning and nature, thus never really being trapped to it, only acting on it to exercise a degree of respect and power in an attempt to right their wrongs while not causing further harm. But if they managed, in their attempt take on the role of the old gods, to alter their beings, binding themselves to what the old gods represented, thus, in fact, really becoming the new gods, then that changes everything I said so far. Hmm.

This has been very enlightening. Again, i really appreciate the amount of input put in this thread so far. Especially yours Tobs; i really appreciate this, and can't stress that enough.

 

[Violyn]

That makes a lot of sense! In CoM if i remember correctly, Nareva said the seven awakened found it a coincidence that there were also seven major gods in the pantheon of godhood, so they took the opportunity that had presented to take over the old gods' place and help humanity beat the other invading wraiths. After the victory, they took it upon themselves to help rebuild and "right" the wrongs they caused. I think what you just said you fits perfectly right after this set of events. It'd make a lot of sense for them to feel right in their new position, and thus give reason on why they remained in their position of the new gods. If anything, combining with what Tobs said (if i understood it correctly), by accepting and taking for themselves the meanings and natures of the old gods, they might have increased their own power, furthering the belief that they in fact, ceased being wraiths and became the actual, new gods of the pantheon.

Edit: i'm really enjoying this

 

[Tristan Black]

I do like how your little question has sparked some detailed debate and exposition. Especially since this is the sort of existential abstract the meta of this world is built on.

 

[Savin]

what's stopping him from doing that i wonder

Realistically? Nothing. But does that make him nobler by overcoming temptations?

mentally speaking, the gods seem to be no different than anybody really, they just have a lot more power

Welcome to Olympus.

do you think there could be any chance of this game branching out into another game for example? Could be a place where the creators could let their intake and writing skills fly into a different main plot and not have to remain on the idea of CoC of demons run rampant corrupting the population and it's up to a hero to stop said demons?

The word you're looking for there is "sequel" and we'll get back to you on that when we're closer to finishing the game we're working on

 

[Violyn]

I do like how your little question has sparked some detailed debate and exposition. Especially since this is the sort of existential abstract the meta of this world is built on.

I knooow right???? i'm loving this!

But does that make him nobler by overcoming temptations?

I wouldn't say nobler, but it would definitely give me Paarthurnax vibes, which i can definitely get behind, i love that dragon gramps.

The word you're looking for there is "sequel" and we'll get back to you on that when we're closer to finishing the game we're working on

That is the most exciting thing i've heard this morning!!! You guys are great!

 

[Tenalc13]

I have not played in CoC 2 for quite some time (starting with a frostwood), but all this talk about the gods reminded me of a series of The Elder Scrolls. They look like a Daedra. Some of them are not bad, even good. If you serve them after death, you fall into their dimension and it is quite comfortable there. But they are still Daedra, not Aedra. And it is known that nothing bad happens to those who serve Aedra (you are not turned into a werewolf and forced to hunt constantly - hi Hircine). And if you recall some posts on the forums about the TES, which argue that Daedra can not create and therefore they are trying to get as many souls as possible. Trying to realize all this and combine it with the lore of the scrolls, I start feel dizzy >_>

And people already mentions Paarthurnax

 

[Ossa]

Honestly? They remind me more of the deities of D&D.

They are heavily dependent on the beliefs and expectations of believers, if I'm reading the lore on them correctly. Their 'nature' as gods instead of wraiths is dependent on 'their' believers maintaining their identity, and they themselves embody said identity in turn. If religions were to change, and belief change in turn, then the Wraith-as-God would alter in turn. They require that belief in order to exist as such; without it, they'll just degrade and devolve back into unfeeling monstrosities. What's more, upon death their worshippers and believers 'fuse' with them (read: souls get eaten), thus shaping and defining them accordingly.

That's my interpretation of it, anyway. Mankind (or elfkind or orckind or kitsunekind or whatever) is unknowingly maintaining its own protectors through the power of belief.

That said, I'm with a few posters above; I unironically adore the lore that is being made here, in the same way I adored MGQ back when I played it. Come for the porn, stay for the surprisingly well-crafted world and deep characters. You know you're doing things right when you make a game that could be a bestseller if you just took out the lewd bits.

 

[Violyn]

I guess that's one reason why Keros tells you it would be bad if people knew they were wraiths.

 

[Ossa]

That and it'd make him harder to be a trickster. Who's going to trust the 'well-meaning kick the bullies in the nuts' trickster God if it turns out he's actually a reality-devouring Wraith? Same goes for the rest of the gods, really. My theory/interpretation above just hammers home that it'd be a really, really bad idea to get that information out. Talk about disillusioning your worshipper base and committing suicide as a personality.

 

[Violyn]

Exactly, not only would they lose their influence and power, they'd lose themselves as people too. And that is not taking into account the wars that would erupt between mortals, even if people knew that the old gods still existed, and that these ones are new (so basically even if they knew the whole story of this ordeal), their sense of belief would still be completely destroyed. they would definitely not be able to deal with that and start fighting between themselves, without anyone else to hold them accountable for their actions, since the gods would't be there anymore.