Souls
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So the gods (i remember CoM) and the demons are the only real ones who get any benefit?
Souls are kinda like the rocket fuel of Mareth/Savarra. If you know how to extract one, you can use it for all kinds of shit... its just, generally speaking that also means you're depriving someone of their soul, either to consume it yourself or to fuel some magic hijinks. Traditionally extracting someone's soul also meant unleashing a new demon on the world in the doing so that's fun?
It's only recently we're learned that this doesn't have to be the case, such as when Keros yoinks out the Champion of Hawkethorne's soul, they still retained their capacity for empathy and their moral compass,
It's only recently we're learned that this doesn't have to be the case, such as when Keros yoinks out the Champion of Hawkethorne's soul, they still retained their capacity for empathy and their moral compass,
Ok; so we don't do it cus of the immorality involved and difficulty of doing so without producing a demon?
While in theory the Champion and their companions could do all sorts of things with a soul, you generally have to be a rapey monster to want to extract one, emphasis on both words there. In CoC2 there are ways available to the Champion which indirectly involve soul manipulation, without having to go that far. Vivanne and Evergreen both talk about how enchanting works and they use the 'echo' of a departed soul to empower objects. Ryn's magical chastity cage is being powered by a bond with a still-living soul and the magic to make that work is said to be really ancient. The former type of magic is within reach of the player via characters able to perform the enchanting or finding items that it's already been done to, the latter is plot-stuff.
What the Seven can do with extracting a soul without altering the personality is so far beyond the capabilities of our characters that it's just not an option.
What the Seven can do with extracting a soul without altering the personality is so far beyond the capabilities of our characters that it's just not an option.
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Pretty much, yeah. Ingnam's Champion in CoC1 could get his/her/it's hands on an extremely potent lethicite (a crystalized soul) and utilized pieces of it to various ends. such as transforming corrupted Jojo into a rapey tentacle mouse, giving a piece of it to Rathazul so he can use it to erect a defensible thorn canopy around your camp, and giving another to the Hellhound Master in exchange for the Hellfire perk. They didn't really extract it from Marae personally though... and I'm pretty sure they never quite learned how to do so of their own volition either.
Lethicite (the physical form of the soul outside the body) is a very potent power source. Good for all sorts of things, including horn ornamentation for Kas.
It will be possible, later in the game, to acquire Lethicite for reasons and do things with it, mostly making magic items.
While I'm down for a lot of shit, I'm gonna draw the line at messing with souls. Beyond the ethical issues with extracting them, it just sounds like you're packing nitroglycerin into uranium dust. It might not go nuclear, but it's highly unstable and wrecks the shit out of the surrounding environment when it goes off.
All this talk of selling souls and I just keep thinking of one line from the Sandman, from Lucifer.
Lucifer: "They talk of me going like a fishwife come market day, never stopping to ask themselves why. I need no souls. And how can anyone own a soul? No. They belong to themselves... They just hate to have to face up to it."
Lucifer: "They talk of me going like a fishwife come market day, never stopping to ask themselves why. I need no souls. And how can anyone own a soul? No. They belong to themselves... They just hate to have to face up to it."
Power is also something that you are, not that you buy, borrow, beg or steal.
With enough wealth you can essentially buy influence, which is power, and with enough cunning you can steal the power from others in various ways that give you more influence over others. In a setting with magic power is a physical thing you can interact with, so it's even easier to buy and steal it then. You can also beg/plead for power from a god or similar and then if they think it'll offer some amusement or if they take pity or understand your plight they'll let you borrow some power, probably for something in return like servitude but you'll have it nonetheless, at least over those lower than you but to the one you got it from you have none.
There's gonna be some guy going "Power corrupts"
And then I'm gonna say "Power only gives someone the courage to take their mask off"
And then they're gonna go "But that implies that everyone has some evil to/in them"
Then I'll go "I'm not implying, I'm stating"
"Not everyone is evil. There is such a thing as innocence and morality"
"Morality is subjective and is determined by widely held beliefs, in one culture it was morally okay to cannibilize and sacrifice people, in another it was not, and innocence is merely being shielded from the influences of others which inherently takes away innocence"
"How can you think so lowly of people?"
"How can I not when history is a rhyming tale of violence, cruelty, and death?"
So on and so forth, etcetera. ad infinitum, until the thread is closed to further replies or one of us receives the banhammer.
And then I'm gonna say "Power only gives someone the courage to take their mask off"
And then they're gonna go "But that implies that everyone has some evil to/in them"
Then I'll go "I'm not implying, I'm stating"
"Not everyone is evil. There is such a thing as innocence and morality"
"Morality is subjective and is determined by widely held beliefs, in one culture it was morally okay to cannibilize and sacrifice people, in another it was not, and innocence is merely being shielded from the influences of others which inherently takes away innocence"
"How can you think so lowly of people?"
"How can I not when history is a rhyming tale of violence, cruelty, and death?"
So on and so forth, etcetera. ad infinitum, until the thread is closed to further replies or one of us receives the banhammer.
Power is to wake up from a hangover the next day without having a headache.
At the end of the day, the purpose of souls and the mechanics of transactions concerning them is going to down to what the writers like Savin and The Observer decide, end of story.
Yes, there is a power to a soul, and someone who might be able to acquire more souls might put them to a greater use, albeit with some caveats, such as the Kitsune collective soul. And yes, one such as Keros might have the ability to hold onto the soul and create a simulacrum to deceive others. But it also seems that just selling your soul doesn't mean that much, at least from a power position. Yes, the Champion might pledge their souls to other beings like Keros, but in doing so don't lose much. They still retain their empathy and that spark of compassion we might call humanity. From a power perspective, that spark is still dangerous, because it makes the Champion unpredictable.
In other fiction, there are two very broad types of people who sell their soul - Those who do it for the wrong reasons, like greed, power or any number of selfish reasons. And we're taught those who do so find it fleeting, a poor exchange for something so valuable.
And then you have the ones who sell their souls for the right reason, to save someone they love, might be a parent, spouse, child or friend. Whatever it might be, it is still a (near) selfless act, they've weighed the cost of their own soul against someone else and deemed it a worthy cost.
Now, depending on who might be looking for that soul, that's a dangerous proposition. If you're a devil and specialise in tormenting souls, well its hard to do that when the shining beacon of decency is giving off hope in hell.
Depending on how you interpret Keros' offer and the Champion's reason for taking it (power, integration or protection their kitsune family), there is still a definite power imbalance. Keros needs the Champion's soul a lot more than they need to be a Keros' personal champion. And that puts the Champion of Hawkethorne in an uneviable position of power.
Yes, there is a power to a soul, and someone who might be able to acquire more souls might put them to a greater use, albeit with some caveats, such as the Kitsune collective soul. And yes, one such as Keros might have the ability to hold onto the soul and create a simulacrum to deceive others. But it also seems that just selling your soul doesn't mean that much, at least from a power position. Yes, the Champion might pledge their souls to other beings like Keros, but in doing so don't lose much. They still retain their empathy and that spark of compassion we might call humanity. From a power perspective, that spark is still dangerous, because it makes the Champion unpredictable.
In other fiction, there are two very broad types of people who sell their soul - Those who do it for the wrong reasons, like greed, power or any number of selfish reasons. And we're taught those who do so find it fleeting, a poor exchange for something so valuable.
And then you have the ones who sell their souls for the right reason, to save someone they love, might be a parent, spouse, child or friend. Whatever it might be, it is still a (near) selfless act, they've weighed the cost of their own soul against someone else and deemed it a worthy cost.
Now, depending on who might be looking for that soul, that's a dangerous proposition. If you're a devil and specialise in tormenting souls, well its hard to do that when the shining beacon of decency is giving off hope in hell.
Depending on how you interpret Keros' offer and the Champion's reason for taking it (power, integration or protection their kitsune family), there is still a definite power imbalance. Keros needs the Champion's soul a lot more than they need to be a Keros' personal champion. And that puts the Champion of Hawkethorne in an uneviable position of power.
Actually, I think that's just drinking enough water. Stay hydrated. This is a threat.
Thanks man, now to every alcohol bottle that I drink I will drink too one glass of pure water... wish me luck