Some Thoughts on Setting - CoC Vs TiTS.

[Doc_Vermin]

Or, more controversially: 'Why I think CoC has a better setting than TiTS.'

Just jotting down some thoughts, and thought I'd get some community feedback.

First off; let me clarify that I like & am enjoying TiTS. This is not me having a go at TiTS, nor am I trying to imply it's a bad game or that the setting is bad; I just think that, as a pornographic game, the setting for CoC works better.

Let me explain:

In CoC you play as a young man or woman sent through a portal to a magical realm (in both senses) which is being corrupted by sex magic, and you're entrusted with the task of stopping the sex-magic-powered-demons from taking over & using the realm as a staging ground for invading other worlds.

Right away we see that the sex is built right in to the premise: We have an in-game explanation for why everyone behaves like an over-sexed teenager, why so many of the magic items we find have erotic effects, and why whipping your wobbly bits out is a viable combat strategy: All of the sex magic is corrupting the people and even the land itself, making folk so horny that the mere sight of artfully-waved genitals can reduce a hardened (no pun intended) combatant to a state of helpless arousal.

Now, compare this to TiTS, where you play as the son or daughter of a deceased super-space-future industrialist who has left you one of those fun, whacky, wills which stipulates you must pass some test (in this case an inter-stellar scavenger-hunt) before you can get your hot, sweaty, little, hands on daddy's dosh. Your scheming cousin is trying to beat you to your goal & usurp your claim to the family fortune. Let the whacky races commence.

As you can see; there's nothing inherently sexual about any of this: Indeed, it would have been trivially easy for Fenoxo (if he'd been so inclined) to make TiTS a bog standard, work-safe, PG-13 game.

The only explanation we're offered for why everyone behaves like a horny character out of a 'Carry-On' film is because 'it's the sexually liberated super-space-future, and everyone's up for it with anyone & everyone else all the time'.

Okay, but that still doesn't explain why all the aliens just so happen to be physiologically compatible with (not to mention attractive to) humans, or why even the toughest combatants will sink to their knees in helpless arousal in the middle of a gun-fight if you flash them enough. The only reasoning we have there is 'Because You Are Playing a Porn Game'.

Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Heck, most porn games on the internet have that premise; it's just that in CoC there was an in-game reason for these things, too; and that's why I think that, out of the two, CoC has the better setting.

Again, I'd just like to state that I'm having a great time playing TiTS, I appreciate all the mechanical improvements, and I in no way intend this as an attack on that game; I just prefer its predecessor in terms of setting.

So, what do you think? Am I talking out of the wrong orifice? Do you have an opinion on the matter, or suggestions as to how the premise of TiTS could be (or could've been) made more inherently erotic? Please, let me know!

 

[Tinman]

Wait, do you think we won't be filling every alien hole in the universe with cum the moment we find them? This is the real world Doc. If we ain't killin' it we're fucking it because that is human nature. Hell, one theory of where the heart symbol came from is a plant the Romans used for birth control until they literally fucked it into extinction. Porn has fueled more industrial success than anything else in human history, and you can bet the moment gene mods are a reality someone will be looking for a way to use them for sex. Quite frankly, the sex fueled adventures of young Mr/Ms Steele are probably more realistic than most other sci-fi out there. Even with staples of the genre like Star Trek and Dr Who recognizing just how indiscriminate the human sex drive can be.

 

[Nonesuch]

Pfft. Looks like someone hasn't talked to Colenso.

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

'Why I think CoC has a better setting than TiTS.'

I'd actually agree with you on this if you were to add a clarification: CoC has a better setting for TiTS when it comes to creating isolated, absurdists, out-there smut scenarious and characters.

When it comes to the world-building and the potential for coherent, sensible stories and scenarios TiTS has all the advantages.

And honestly, out of two of major suspension hang-ups you listed one is a purely mechanical relic and another one can be waved with Perverted Precursors.

Edit:

Pfft. Looks like someone hasn't talked to Colenso.

Dammit, got ninjad.

 

[balitz Method]

Yes, generally speaking TiTS has quite a few gaps in logic of that sort and a number of holdover quirks from CoC whose presence is purely out of a tense of tradition no longer make sense in TiTS. The tease mechanic in particular is an egregious example for that very reason you mentioned and more generally the TiTS setting doesn't have that definitive sort of unifying thematic element for either the sexual content of its material or the tone it takes. Those things vary wildly and can often seem scatterbrained, poorly justified, or nonsensical when stacked up next to other aspects. CoC was goofyserious (goofy stuff played mostly straight but with some acknowledgement of how goofy it is), the player got this impression early on and most all of the content was written to follow it. Even when it got dramatic the tone was more strictly controlled to the point where material that was too heavy or grim was left to implication and hinting; not excised completely but there was a clear sense that it was an enforced official or unofficial mandate and that kept it cohesive. On the other hand TiTS can have full goof porn logic material, grimdark stuff, goofyserious smut and DRAMATIC SOB STORIES all within a few clicks of each other.

There's been -some- effort to give most of the alien races overtly sexual cultures to address these sorts of things piecemeal but it doesn't often come together super well and the writing doesn't even take advantage of "sexual culture shock" or anything to erotic effect. Everyone's just super lewd for reasons in ways that are compatible because it's convenient and that's thought to be good enough for a porn game. So in terms of a setting with internal logic that gave the lewd stuff a sensible context and brought a wide range of content together in a way that more or less fit, yes, CoC is miles ahead of TiTS.

That being said the TiTS setting also has way more potential; it could just sorely use a more concrete vision of what its setting is and how it works (and fleshed-out guidelines to go with it), a stronger central theme that provides that baseline justification and unification of all the sexual material, and some time spent combing over the systems with the "does this mechanic actually make sense in our setting and if not should it be cut or adjusted?" editing eye.

 

[Ormael]

TiTS so far as it goes trying to be in most parts anti-CoC. As so many systems or ways things worked in CoC was diametral changed for TiTS. Luckly some of basics are still the same. Still there is no way to compare CoC and TiTS since basical setting for both are different. Maybe if both of them be fantasy or sci0fi games it would be easier to compare them and etc.

 

[Nonesuch]

Yes, generally speaking TiTS has quite a few gaps in logic of that sort and a number of holdover quirks from CoC whose presence is purely out of a tense of tradition no longer make sense in TiTS...

I think the lack of a central reason for why there's so much shagging going on could be given a pass, if there were a core conflict or storyline which was strong enough to hold the player's attention and make them want to continue pushing on. Porn logic is porn logic, most players will go with it if they aren't made to look at it too closely. CoC's intro is great because it is succinct, it shows the player why there's so many baddies attempting to have sex with them, and it provides a reason for why they should explore and better themselves. Granted everything that happens after it is a hot mess that has very little to do with anything, but TiTS' intro singularly fails to do any of those things.

Tone being all over the place is a natural result of there being half a dozen writers and editorial policy being very lax, and tbh even if the latter weren't true it would still be the case. Fen and Savin are the writers people take their cues from; one writes goofy stuff about space tanuki with giant horse dicks, the other writes porno 40k when he's allowed.

As an aside: I had Colenso say it as a joke, but Fen is absolutely dead against there being precursor races of any kind. It's a werewolf/vampire thing for him. So if you're going to head-canon a reason for why the TiTS-verse is the way it is, you will have to come up with something different.

 

[balitz Method]

Absolutely: both succinct and surprisingly robust. "The bad guys use sex magic and have corrupted this land." People will absolutely accept porn logic when there -is- a logic to it and it doesn't need to be anything super complicated. That little premise justified the core concept of the content (that every enemy encountered will want to rape your character, that this wacky magic has worn away all resistance to sexuality to the point where shaking your booty at them can completely incapacitate them, that the citizens will have hyperactive libidos and highly exaggerated bits and pieces) and so the setting did feel like it was following its own sense of logic.

With TiTS the lack of a "core" logic means that every individual thing has to have its own porn logic and each one tries to be compatible with the rest while clearly just trying to re-justify the same CoC logic in a much more piecemeal sort of way - so naturally there are going to be gaps large and small. And another important thing you mentioned is that simple and succinct intro also provided a much more coherent reason for the player to explore and build themselves up. The intro to TiTS is a -really- bizarre premise that doesn't even seem to hold Fenoxo and Savin's attention and interest considering that nothing has been written to expand on or follow it up since then. Both the goal itself (go on this weird little scavenger hunt that theoretically could be done in the course of a week - or even remotely by sending drones to pick them up - to inherit your father's company) and the villain it proposes, a snobby but not-that-competent cousin, fail to provide much in the way of a compelling reason to keep pushing forward.

If you're stopping an evil force the player can instantly understand why they should be doing this and why they need to engage in an adventure. With a complicated oddball premise like this there's a lot more that has to be provided to explain it. Okay, inheriting a company: that's an ambivalent issue in and of itself; plenty of kids don't want to follow in their parents' footsteps. And then with how literally and bizarrely the hero's father wants them to follow in his footsteps (blindly hoping that each probe will have an adventure surrounding it?), not to mention how this was apparently planned for the hero before their birth...that's a lot of difficult shit to be dropping on a person all at once and then there's no content at all addressing how Steele Jr. feels about any of that. And straight off the bat the player is given the impression that they're superior to their cousin so there's not going to be a built-in sense of progression, just a drawing out of the conflict with a series of "nyeh heh heh, I'll get you next time!"s.

It's not a good intro by itself and nothing has been done with it.

Combined with the loose reigns on the tone of submitted content the whole thing feels far less cohesive/messier despite the many, many improvements and the cooler-in-general nature of the setting.

 

[Savin]

Both CoC and TiTS' plots and settings are crap excuses for shagging to happen: one has ~demon sex magic~ and the other is ~the sexually liberated future~. Like Nik said, CoC's setting is inherently better at explaining away why I can wobble my horsedong at people in a fight and make them crumple to the ground begging for a fuck.

Spoiler: Giant Ramble TL;DR both games are bad at being anything other than porn

CoC, however, lacks any kind of cohesive storytelling or worldbuilding. Even most of the main content writers have or had no idea what the fuck any of the "lore" from CoC is, unless you read TDM's sketchy History document, and that's not even official. Adjatha and I can't even settle on the time-scale on the stupid planet: Adj runs CoC&D like Mareth is a thousands-years-old fantasy world that's been under demon siege for ages (who's to say otherwise?), but I'm fairly sure the demons showed up 20 years ago and sentient life began on Mareth 250 years ago or so. At least that's what I was told when I was writing for the game (which Adj ALSO did), but if that's actually the case how the fuck is there an ancient dragon civilization or... y'know, just what the fuck.

The main plot (if you can call it that -- more like "sequence of stumbling into dungeons completely by accident") is extraordinarily weak, with a "main antagonist" who's mentioned all of, what, twice before you see her for the first time and also FINAL BOSS TIME WHOO. Aside from the Oasis demons (maybe?) and the Factory (both of which are sorted out and need never be mentioned again past Level 5, a quarter of the way through the level bracket), Lethice's supposed "Demon Horde" has exactly no presence or impact in the world. Virtually all of the demons you see are just doing their own thang out in the boonies, without any real rhyme or reason from the actual antagonistic force that's supposedly driving them toward world domination. That's probably my biggest grump on the subject: the supposed world-ending threats are just content to sit in their castle for 15+ levels literally never interacting with the PC in any way -- in fact, there's really no reason for the demons to do so, other than you wandering into their factory and blowing it up, since you're a complete nobody up to the end of the game. At which point you suddenly command a huge amount of power because ~reasons~. There's no reason for the PC to actually engage with the "plot" of the game, in which you have exactly zero conscious agency until the epilogue, since the enemy you're told to go find and destroy doesn't... you know, do anything to warrant it. You can tell me that the demons are doing all this horrible shit, but we're never shown it before or after the Factory. Hell, even Vapula, the only true demon we meet elsewhere who's actually menacing anybody, is just an independent demon who doesn't seem to be doing anything on Lethice's order.

TiTS is a somewhat better about cohesive worldbuilding, and that entirely comes down to communication between authors -- something CoC utterly lacked for the most part. That's not to say it's good necessarily: Nonesuch hit it right on the head with regards to the wild swings in tone and theme. Everything in the game's lore points to it being a corporate dystopia with overbearing governments and mega-corporations that can rule your life from birth to death... but God forbid we actually shine a light on the shitty things that are supposed to be happening!

I definitely think TiTS could have been done better, now that I have three years' hindsight on development. The main plot has more drive than CoC's, though it is admittedly a false drive since your Rival doesn't operate on a game-time clock and is content to wait at each probe for you to show up. The Rival shows up and interacts with you, so you can at least get to know your opposition (versus my bugbear with Lethice never being seen or felt until the final boss battle) -- though said antagonist does come off looking utterly incompetent pretty quickly. But that fundamentally comes back to the Probe plot itself.

There's been some rumblings from several authors about re-writing the intro again. And... meh. You can rewrite it as many times as you'd like, but fundamentally you're still pointing the PC at the X-marks on a galactic treasure hunt and shooting them off into the galaxy. @MistyBirb has mentioned a few times that TiTS would probably be better off ditching the daddy-worshiping probe-hunting thing entirely, and having the PC just go out into the galaxy for their own reasons, effectively without a main plot to drive you forward at all. I've always been an advocate of "If you can't do it well, don't do it" after all. Then again, maybe the Rival just needs a lot of work to reshape them into someone who's actually a legitimate, competent threat to the PC. I don't think that would be particularly hard, honestly -- but I doubt it'll happen retroactively. Maybe the Tainted Space plot arc will fix that... maybe not.

I absolutely agree that Tease combat is a relic, and really doesn't make any kind of sense in TiTS (it barely does in CoC, but...). In hindsight, I think we'd have ourselves a much better game if that whole limb of the combat system was outright removed -- honestly, the same for sexable enemies in general. Outside of bosses like Khorgan or Taivra, and particular "unique" enemies like the Naleen Huntress or the Queen of the Deep, anyway. TiTS would probably be much better served with us focusing most of our smut-writing attention on the "space dating sim" aspects, ie, waifus: those are the faces of the game, and the aspects most people focus on while playing. Enemies are just fappable roadblocks between you and the next planet full of waifus and husbandos, and despite TiTS having gotten rid of the really rapey aspects from CoC, having sexable enemies still fosters that same environment of the PC being an interstellar rapist in a galaxy full of rape-monsters. :V

 

[Lancer]

While TiTS does have a lackluster story line up to this point, it is not a unique problem, and one that can be fixed.

A plot structure that I have seen stories follow is one where the the original villain, while still a villain, has something, or many things, holding them back from becoming a truly threatening villain. Jack/Jill is obviously not a truly threatening villain, for all of the reasons stated above, so they fit the first part of this structure well. The viewer up to this point in the story likes the main characters, supporting cast, and some will even relate to/want to sex the villain. The viewer will also feel that the story is rather directionless, shapeless, and that there is nothing providing a strong driving force to the plot. The viewer will be correct.

The second part to the plot structure is where the original villain is swept away and removed as a threat entirely, one way or another, and replaced by a threat that the first villain could never match in terms of the threat imposed. This is where the plot begins to really unfold, and the characters are allowed to grow in ways that they simply couldn't while only facing the first villain.

The second part of this plot structure would be almost hilariously to design for TiTS. Dystopian corporations, massive pirate-slaver organizations, zombie parasites, incredibly diverse and deadly alien races, sentient AI, there is no lack of creative material to work with. Any one of these topics has spawned countless books, movies, TV shows, and games by themselves. TiTS is not limited to any one of them.

I'm not really worried about TiTS' story, only four out of the ten main planets have been implemented, and the writers are committed to finishing. I'm more worried about the combat system, and how Fenoxo thinks that drones are fine the way they are

 

[Kesil]

the demons showed up 20 years ago and sentient life began on Mareth 250 years ago or so.

That's what TDM's history pitch claimed at least.

I always assumed it had to do with the pace I played CoC, but one can say that, story and player agency wise, things vanish after the factory events, especially if you chose the Marae corrupting option. "So I have ruined the only good option this place had to set things right and everything I knew turned out to be blatant lies. Wat do?". Moreso when neither those pesky demons are everywhere nor the kobolds are anywhere to be found-two races that singlehandedly ruined the land's societies. One can assume they're just that laid back and reckon they already feel there's no reason to "work" any harder, but that's all. Perhaps it has to do with people being accustomed to certain tropes.

 

[balitz Method]

~Demon sex magic~ does work more...thoroughly, I guess, for the setting. Rape monsters/rapeable monsters are another holdover that makes very tenuous/not much sense in a ~libertine future~ setting and so instead every native race just-so-happens to have some kind of culture built around boning any strange aliens they meet and as that goes on it does stretch the limits of myriad porn logics.

Spoiler: CoC Stuff

But while the world of CoC doesn't have any sort of sensible lore and the progression of it was very accidental-feeling (though that kinda-sorta worked for it on a barebones level since exploring and discovery were established as the primary game mechanic) the dungeons themselves did have some basic storytelling sense on display that TiTS is still sorely lacking: the first dungeon has a twist that complicates the premise, the second one has a mid-boss foil for the hero that shows their growth, the third completes their very basic arc either by allowing them to become a true champion, fall to corruption, or simply return home.

Lots of things could have been done better - especially making the supposed demon threat more visible - but for what was actually written (a reader gets the sense, from what little we do see, that the loss of their soul and mortality inevitably leaves them lethargic/apathetic and with a shallow sense of pride that eventually wears away anything like ambition or drive until they become disaffected sluts who can't be bothered to do anything (or anyone) that isn't right in front of them). Even if it was blatantly to cover a weakness like the lack of their presence the writing suggests some logic for itself and follows that even if not an established sense of lore. In an environment like that some wannabe-hero-nobody who doesn't have the context of however vague many years of intimidation and memories/stories of when they were truly terrifying to draw from standing up to them and exposing their decaying "empire" for the hollow relic it is makes for a straightforward story that also happens to justify all of its porn.

Spoiler: TiTS Stuff

Now, if the story were to be any more complicated than that it would absolutely fall apart and that's kinda what we're seeing so far with TiTS. It goes for something complicated and ambitious straight off the bat but then doesn't even have those basics in place. More than having or not having a drive it's hard to immediately figure out whether the plot in TiTS is supposed to have a sense of drive. The way the game's actually designed gives it a sense that there's not supposed to be these huge stakes to it. Not just because the hero's cousin is incompetent but also because the goal itself - taking over daddy's company - doesn't seem to have this looming fail-state to it. In the event that Jack/Jill does win what really happens? A reader gets the sense that Steele Jr. would be just fine with or without an inheritance and Jack/Jill doesn't come off as evil enough to really do anything so horrible with it - at worst they might not manage it all that well? If it's just a personal grudge the player doesn't see enough of that to have context for it; Jack/Jill is v. poorly characterized as a one-dimensional spoiled snob and a little conflict like that's just not strong enough to carry the weight of the whole story. And that's in addition to the fact that the nature of the quest requires a -lot- more personal justification that's not materialized yet.

The pre-alpha state of the game does fortunately allow for revisions but before any of those could be effective a couple of things need to be solidified:

A) Is the main plot supposed to be a driving force or more of an excuse to take a journey? Pinning that down determines whether or not there's any real need for it to have a fleshed-out plot with a big conflict to it in the first place.

B) Is the overly-complicated nature of it going to lead anywhere? With elaborate schemes like this the only real point is for them to be more than they appear to be. If it is what it is then yes, it could (and should) be simplified so it doesn't raise odd questions it has no intention of answering.

C) Is the focus of the story Victor Steele or his offspring? Whether or not there's any threat the hero needs to address with the heavy emphasis on legacy in the premise there are basically two ways to handle this: either the journey is about discovering who Victor Steele really was and ultimately either embracing or rejecting the idea of carrying on the mantle or the journey's about Steele Jr. coming of age and developing into the person they'll ultimately be through a series of trials.

The way the intro is written learns much more heavily toward the former - after all, the journey is established to be one where Steele Jr. is literally reliving their father's quest and he's gone to elaborate lengths to give his offspring the same sort of experience he had and uses his company as an incentive for Steele Jr. to take after their Papa. Given the timing of it there's even an implication that he sees this as a way of overcoming death. But then there's been no content to carry this any further or even clarify it. It's actually an interesting notion but from what I've seen of his opinions on this I get the feeling that Fenoxo in particular learns toward: a) it's just an excuse, b) it is what it is and other people have given this way more thought than I did, c) it's Steele Jr.'s story.

And if better reflecting that is ultimately how it should be I would suggest rewriting the intro to strike the notion that Steele Jr. is chasing daddy's ghost entirely, lower the stakes, and make it much simpler/more personal in an easily understandable way. Something like Victor Steele putting a "treasure" together that's heavily implied to be personal mementos and setting up a scavenger hunt to hopefully cheer up his grieving child while they wait for glacial interplanetary bureaucracy to go through with the transfer of his many many many financial assets and the cousin overhears but completely misinterprets it as him hiding all of his assets away in a treasure like some kind of pirate. Something that comes off more wacky and eccentric that doesn't require a bunch of personal questions regarding legacy be answered.

Otherwise, if the legacy idea is going to be preserved, content for it needs to expand on the many question marks the weird premise raises. Maybe something like narrated messages in each pod left by Victor that try to teach Steele Jr. a lesson? It would make the main conflict less about your bumbling cousin and more about Steele Jr. vs. Steele Sr.

 

[Nonesuch]

Both CoC and TiTS' plots and settings are crap excuses for shagging...

Heh. I actually had a post partially written about the fact that TiTS would probably be better if it ditched the probe hunt and went "You spent your life savings on a spaceship, go explore the frontier and make your fortune, but watch out for your asshole cousin!"

I agree with everything Savin wrote, and tbh it'd be good if all writers and prospective writers read what he put there. I too am hoping the Tainted Space (r) storyline can improve matters by providing a better central conflict, but I'm not overly confident about it. Also going forward it would be such a relief not to have to make mobs necessarily sexable anymore, they are such a drag.

 

[Krynh]

Okay, but that still doesn't explain why all the aliens just so happen to be physiologically compatible with (not to mention attractive to) humans

One word: panspermia

 

[balitz Method]

A ton of these offshoot games that Fenoxo inspired really took to that whole sexable mob idea but I can't recall offhand any other than CoC that even halfway justified them. Some are so bad about it that it's like 70% or more of the erotic content in it is gated around your avatar being a serial rapist for no reason.

 

[Nonesuch]

A ton of these offshoot games that Fenoxo inspired really took to that whole sexable mob idea but I can't recall offhand any other than CoC that even halfway justified them. Some are so bad about it that it's like 70% or more of the erotic content in it is gated around your avatar being a serial rapist for no reason.

Popularity of the Monster Girl series and a chronic lack of imagination, innit.