Some confusion about Kiyoko/Kinu content
- Thread starter TankHunter678
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Just wanted to say I finished the Convocation.
Regarding my previous comment regarding Kiyoko, it still stands as there's no way she knows and the rest of their people believe the same. She'd still have many questions, and may even lightly oppose the Champion if they chose one of the others.
I honestly thought Sigrune was a block like the Minotaurs are for a lack of content, so I really feel like I missed some of the best writing yet by Tobs.
However, I already knew the twist for a few months, as I'd read the dev docs on Kiyoko and it's spelled out in there, but without the additional firsthand details provided in the Convocation storyline itself.
Knowing all this… I'd still align with Keros, because in this case the mask has become the wearer (again, some amazing writing by Tobs. Definitely the reason they're my favorite writer). I'd love to go into more detail, but I promised Malidica to be vague when discussing it.
In the end, they've done everything they can with the power they have (which is more than any mortal has) to be the better than they were, and I can back that.
I hope this is vague or coded enough to not truly spoil anything. If it isn't vague enough, please let me know so I can fix it.
However, I already knew the twist for a few months, as I'd read the dev docs on Kiyoko and it's spelled out in there, but without the additional firsthand details provided in the Convocation storyline itself.
Knowing all this… I'd still align with Keros, because in this case the mask has become the wearer (again, some amazing writing by Tobs. Definitely the reason they're my favorite writer). I'd love to go into more detail, but I promised Malidica to be vague when discussing it.
In the end, they've done everything they can with the power they have (which is more than any mortal has) to be the better than they were, and I can back that.
I hope this is vague or coded enough to not truly spoil anything. If it isn't vague enough, please let me know so I can fix it.
Regarding my previous comment regarding Kiyoko, it still stands as there's no way she knows and the rest of their people believe the same. She'd still have many questions, and may even lightly oppose the Champion if they chose one of the others.
I've already questioned that very thing before, (I believe in Tobs' own thread.) and Savin confirmed that binding yourself to any of the seven besides Keros will not affect Kiyoko's content adversely or otherwise
Pretty much a ditto for me, I stumbled upon the post requesting a walkthrough, then decided to see just what everyone was talking about.That's plenty vague shadow
pity you had the nature of the seven spoiled, i actually went in completely blind, also thinking Siggy was an unbeatable roadblock, but in digging through the games art folders i saw a bust of Nareva and i was like "huh?", wiki'd it and saw we could learn about her in a scene behind Siggy, so i just went in wanting to read, borked it hard and then noticed a guide for it and then... well you know
That’s good, though my original comment was more of a thought experiment than actual concerns I had. I do still think she’d have serious questions, but could understand her devotion to the Champion. I tend to overthink these characters, but the writing in this game almost demands discussion and consideration.
That's not the way i took that scene, Inari Kinu gives me a strong feeling of someone who sees all the rigid formality of Kitsune culture to be a frivolous waste of time, in that scene she's pissed for being involved because the situation is objectively stupid, Mai was trying to do something nice and ended up breaking some ridiculous etiquette rule, Komari got upset cause she's too prideful to ignore her own ego for the love of her grand daughter doing something kind for her. It's a well written scene of something completely stupid about rigid cultures and Kinu can see that, Komari should have just taken the gift and thanked Mai, anything else would be a ridiculous display of nonsense. I prefer Inari Kinu for these sorts of reasons, she's not a bitch at heart, she only looks that way cause she doesn't follow the constrictive culture she was born in to, which pisses her mum off more than anything else. Kitsune culture puts more emphasis on playing the etiquette game than just being straight forward and decent to each other and, for Inari Kinu and people like me, it's too nonsensical to placate the ego's of the indoctrinated, screw em, let's go pickle some veggies
I actually prefer Hime Kinu's Option 3 because it was a nice subtle way of pointing out to Mai and Komari that they're being stupid. Because everyone knows Hitoshi didn't do anything wrong. The suddenness of throwing him in legit makes them go "WUT????" and Hitoshi (who likely caught on Hime's intent and played along without missing a beat) further hammers the point in by awkwardly apologizing and asking them to stop fighting.
Which actually gave Mai and Komari enough pause to realize they were both at fault without anyone being humiliated (no, Hitoshi doesn't count because again, it's obviously NOT his fault even to the angry parties, and he didn't get any flack). So Hime is actually pretty clever for pulling that move, even if it seems like a dick move at first.
But the thing is, she also KNOWS how Mai and Komari are, as well as how Hitoshi is, so that's why she's able pull the whole thing off. She told Mai and Komari they're both wrong without outright saying it and earning their wrath. Because that awkward pause gave them just enough time to cool their heads, they each realized on their own their mistake (i.e. Mai being thoughtless with her gift and Komari blowing up childishly over a well-intentioned gift) and that's why they were able to make up without losing face.
So ironically, the option that SEEMS the least just actually is the most just because Hime understood that an interruption was needed and is morally flexible enough to fake-pin the blame on someone else (and fortunately that someone else is good reliable Hitoshi who is more observant than he acts, though I feel like if Nakano was there, the scene would be infinitely more hilarious because he can be overly dramatic when he wants to
).While I agree Kitsune Culture (and Asian Culture by extension) involves too much hiding one's real feelings, I feel that Hime stays on the better side of it (i.e. the social reasons for such etiquette to exist) for the most part. There's plenty of indication that she does sincerely love everyone. The reason she does is because she understands them, and it's hard to hate someone you empathize with. And while the den loves Kinu for what she represents (as she says, the "image" they have of her), they definitely do also love her for her compassion (i.e. according to Komari, Hime treats everyone as her equal, including the lowliest commoner; this is because she believes everyone is deserving of basic respect and kindness). And so this is why I like comparing her to Princess Diana; Hime is the People's Princess because she genuinely cares.
Not to say that Inari doesn't care considering she wants to make sure no one ever goes hungry, but it's not quite to the same personal degree. Also, Inari hates people in general because she can't understand them. That's why she's a recluse and pisses off a lot of people, though they still like and respect her regardless. That's why Inari dialogues make me pretty uncomfortable for the most part when it's not about her crops; she comes off like a callous prat who can't accept the idea that the world doesn't operate in black and white, and she's not always right.
Which is fitting considering Inari is the route that comes from semi-neglecting your daughter and not teaching her basic human/person decency. Or alternately, Kinu actively rebelling against the idea of taking the other perspective if we factor in the events PC isn't there and it's just Kinu in another place in another time. It's worth nothing that choices on events where you are playing Kinu making the choices tend to weigh more heavily than choices PC decides how to react to Kinu. So basically, Kinu ultimately makes her final choice herself either way from a story-standpoint.
Inari unfortunately embodies the most negative aspects of Kiyoko's personality, ironically in her attempt to be as opposite from her as possible. And the end result of two headstrong people who refuse to compromise is pain and burnt bridges.
So in my eyes, Hime is the right option for me. Inari reminds me too much of people I can't stand, i.e. the ones who are so self-righteous their heads are permanently stuck up their asses and they don't fucking care who they hurt. >.<;
Objectively though, both Hime and Inari are opposite extremes that are good and bad in different ways. The real "good" option is for Kinu to balance out, which is my hope for what happens post-Kinu Quest. For Kinu to be balanced and complete.
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Know this late and shouldn't revive a dead thread but as soon as I ready this post, I just felt like I needed to vent somewhat. Been holding it in for awhile. Do you think we could get the option to disown Kinu as our children? Just text flavor? I know I'm probably being an a@@ for saying this but the first moment my PC first spoke to her in private, It just felt like he was talking to someone else, someone that was a literal copy of his fox slut wife, something my PC did not want his daughter to become. Later when the first time he tries to have a father daughter moment like they used to, she just pulls away and tells him to buzz of in a friendly way. After that, my PC just didn't care for this "woman" whom's supposed to be his daughter. There isn't a single trait she takes after the PC beyond bravery, duty, diligence but those can be debated that those traits were given to her by Kiyoko. Maybe If my PC could take her instead of Kiyoko as a companion, maybe I could see the two bond again eventually but as she is right now, my PC just pretends like she doesn't even exist. The closest he admit to accepting her existence is the belt she and Kiyoko made for him as thanks.
I get why she's the way she is, I do but at the same time, you think Kinu would give her father some leeway here even If she probably resents him secretly for not being there for those ten years. I mean she couldn't act a little childish for her father's sake at the beginning in private than slowly break out of that artificial molding to have him accept what she is now? I mean for pete sake, he's the literal reason why your in the real world and the reason you have a future you would have, otherwise never had. He went out of his way to secure that possible future for you and your mother. You could at least, throw some his way lol
I have to agree with you, after my first playthrough, becominng Keros champion and seeing what happened with Kinu and all those children, I can't bring myself to do another playthrough as a Kitsune or have children with Kiyoko knowing what I know now. Still I don't understand why we spent 'ALL" of our time with just Kinu. I feel like the PC would at least interact with some of her siblings.
Yes but no. Basically Hime Kinu has the douchebag boyfriend and dresses in tradition provocative clothing but she's more traditional and reserved herself, while Inari Kinu has the nice inoffensive farmer boyfriend and wears more swoopy loose clothing but she's the one who wants to jump her boyfriends bones etc. because she has more mommy/daddy issues. It's really not that simple.
Congratulations, you've just discovered one of the points of Kinu's writing: She's her own person, you get to play a role in how she grows up but once she is (thanks to timeskip shenanigans) she makes her own choices.
You can already do that. But I get what you mean, at least we are not doing it in game officially. And thank god for that. Still I wish she would wait a day at least. It is kind of jarring how fast she finds her suitor. Like, Kinu dear, even I and Kiyoko had a meal before, you know, "playing".
I mean, normally I really wouldn't care who marries who, whether fictional children or not, people have the right to be with whoever they want to be with but in this case, Kiyoko brought Kitsune politic's in the picture despite having removed herself from the tree of inherence from the Otomo Clan, her noble house. Why would her matriarchal bloodline even matter at that point and why would she IMMEDATILY put Kinu into a political marriage not even days after her escape and why wouldn't she ask you, her husband for your opinion or advice? Sure politically, you would be in the dark since your not really even one of them(Thanks Keros, I get to suffer for your amusement) but I feel Kiyoko would at least ask you. I'm not saying I'd be some Japanese feudal lord and force my daughter to marry someone, I want my daughter to be happy but I feel like I should be able to voice my opinion on such a manner. We don't get that though, instead we get ZERO control over anything relating to this subject, you can't even comment in disapproval. It bugs me COC II automatically forces your character to have a certain perception about a character. I do realize that's more writing but still. Perhaps they could have gone with a more neutral perception than the whole prim, perfect princess vibe the game likes to evoke on you. You can't even tell your daughter to drop her formal speech and just have a normal, heart to heart, honest conversation, not even in private.
Granted, I haven't done a playthrough with Inari Kinu and I know for a fact, I should have gotten her over hime but I didn't like the basic summary of my daughter being alone and what not so.........I used the guide to cheat lol
Granted, I haven't done a playthrough with Inari Kinu and I know for a fact, I should have gotten her over hime but I didn't like the basic summary of my daughter being alone and what not so.........I used the guide to cheat lol
Dude... why....
Also your opinion as the PC doesn't matter in anything here, sucks I know, deal with it.
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An "actual person" needs a consistent personality tho and as it stands still, the PC's personality is very inconsistent in writing; We don't know who they're supposed to be in terms of how they are expected to act and whatnot, so if there is a way they're supposed to be written to BE an actual character that we play through, especially since in this case absolutely nobody in the fandom knows if the PC is supposed to be a blob like everyone claims or just a Steele 2.0 (Aka, a "actual character" that we just play through) in that case, I've not seen anything saying it that isn't just the personality system, which imo feels too broad still. A character needs a consistent personality and as it stands it's still all over the place and inconsistent. >.> Tho I guess that comes with the territory of a community written game idk.
Still a deadbeat dad tho, so nvm it's consistent in one thing. :x
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Now, i am not sure if this is a right place for me to say this, but since this seems that this is Kinu general,I am going to say it. This is one of best things that happen to be written in patch notes after some time.
And Fenoxo games, for me at least, do it close to perfect. No one cares that you have a sexual organs that your PCs gender does not have. Everyone treats you like they would everyone else and everyone uses right gendered pronoun.
That is why I find Kiyokos, and especially Kinu situation so weird and honestly, unappealing. I think it was one of the most jarring, if not the most jarring thing I witnessed in this game.
Firstly, it goes against general tone of these games where you, no matter what role or sexual bits you have, people would respect your pronouns and gender. And since that was only case (I think) where stuff like this happened (where someone refers to you by your reproductiverole), it made it stand out even more then it should. But honestly, if entire game was like that, I would probably not play this game to begin with.
Now I get the general idea. I think there was even a thread about it from what I remember. And general discussion went something like this. Some people also noticed and complained, but Tobs said that in Kinus, and by extensions Kiyokos eyes, we fulfill the role of "husband"/"father". That there society was structured like that, that in Kinus eyes is what we are and it would be confusing for people to read. And beyond that, it is all part of Tobs vision.
Now I think, that funnily enough, I can sympathize with third one the most. Yeah, I could see how referring to 2 different mothers would be confusing in dialogue options. I can see that. But I also feel that, since I have faith in writers here, that you could make it work. And I mean, little confusion in writing to me is worth it if I get to get referred to as a mum. And, still, this kind or argument reminds me of those arguments on how kids could be confused by concept of a child having 2 dads/mums. Come on, we humans are not that dumb.
On to the first one, oh boy. Now I understand to some extent because Tobs based Kitsune society on old Japanese culture so they could be stubborn when it comes to my PC and her wife. But at same time, could our family respect us enough to refer to us as in how we want? And it is not like other Kitsune have problem with us marrying Kiyoko to begin with, so I do not see a problem here. And they still refer to me with female pronouns in rest of conversation which, by extension, makes your family dialogue more jarring.
Second one I feel is most grating. Look, I get we have fathered Kinu and all that. We fulfill father role to some extent. But at same, by having both our child and spouse refer to us by wrong parental title, it makes them seem as worse people. It makes me feel at least, like they would prefer If I/my PC was a man. Which kind of sucks when you like them as characters, but every time I talk to Kinu, you feel kind of like the game does not approve of your choices. At that point, I wish that game pretended that I had only vagina and just dissable rest of the content for me.
And the last one. Now look, since Tobs and other are fixing it (If the message in patch notes is to be belived and is not some part of a sick joke) me writing this seems pointless. But I wanted to write this to let other players and developers know, that while this seems like simple change, It does a lot of for my and many others enjoyment of the game. It felt like only real reason that this was a problem in first place was because Tobs wanted to follow his vision to the tea while not thinking how it fits with rest of the game and its tone. While I can appreciate when writer sticks to there vision, sometimes I feel like you should step away for it and examine it for sake of peoples enjoyment. Not always (I am all for giving some characters specific sexuality for example) but sometimes.
Now I am not sure what paved the way for this decision, but I am grateful for it. Not by much, since I honestly believe that this should not have been a problem from beginning, but as they say, better late then never.
- We’ve started an effort to make Kiyoko/Kinu respect your spousal/parental pronouns, please report any incorrect ones that you still encounter!
And Fenoxo games, for me at least, do it close to perfect. No one cares that you have a sexual organs that your PCs gender does not have. Everyone treats you like they would everyone else and everyone uses right gendered pronoun.
That is why I find Kiyokos, and especially Kinu situation so weird and honestly, unappealing. I think it was one of the most jarring, if not the most jarring thing I witnessed in this game.
Firstly, it goes against general tone of these games where you, no matter what role or sexual bits you have, people would respect your pronouns and gender. And since that was only case (I think) where stuff like this happened (where someone refers to you by your reproductiverole), it made it stand out even more then it should. But honestly, if entire game was like that, I would probably not play this game to begin with.
Now I get the general idea. I think there was even a thread about it from what I remember. And general discussion went something like this. Some people also noticed and complained, but Tobs said that in Kinus, and by extensions Kiyokos eyes, we fulfill the role of "husband"/"father". That there society was structured like that, that in Kinus eyes is what we are and it would be confusing for people to read. And beyond that, it is all part of Tobs vision.
Now I think, that funnily enough, I can sympathize with third one the most. Yeah, I could see how referring to 2 different mothers would be confusing in dialogue options. I can see that. But I also feel that, since I have faith in writers here, that you could make it work. And I mean, little confusion in writing to me is worth it if I get to get referred to as a mum. And, still, this kind or argument reminds me of those arguments on how kids could be confused by concept of a child having 2 dads/mums. Come on, we humans are not that dumb.
On to the first one, oh boy. Now I understand to some extent because Tobs based Kitsune society on old Japanese culture so they could be stubborn when it comes to my PC and her wife. But at same time, could our family respect us enough to refer to us as in how we want? And it is not like other Kitsune have problem with us marrying Kiyoko to begin with, so I do not see a problem here. And they still refer to me with female pronouns in rest of conversation which, by extension, makes your family dialogue more jarring.
Second one I feel is most grating. Look, I get we have fathered Kinu and all that. We fulfill father role to some extent. But at same, by having both our child and spouse refer to us by wrong parental title, it makes them seem as worse people. It makes me feel at least, like they would prefer If I/my PC was a man. Which kind of sucks when you like them as characters, but every time I talk to Kinu, you feel kind of like the game does not approve of your choices. At that point, I wish that game pretended that I had only vagina and just dissable rest of the content for me.
And the last one. Now look, since Tobs and other are fixing it (If the message in patch notes is to be belived and is not some part of a sick joke) me writing this seems pointless. But I wanted to write this to let other players and developers know, that while this seems like simple change, It does a lot of for my and many others enjoyment of the game. It felt like only real reason that this was a problem in first place was because Tobs wanted to follow his vision to the tea while not thinking how it fits with rest of the game and its tone. While I can appreciate when writer sticks to there vision, sometimes I feel like you should step away for it and examine it for sake of peoples enjoyment. Not always (I am all for giving some characters specific sexuality for example) but sometimes.
Now I am not sure what paved the way for this decision, but I am grateful for it. Not by much, since I honestly believe that this should not have been a problem from beginning, but as they say, better late then never.
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Oof...
I have a strong feeling I'm not gonna like it... not in the dumb "disapproval" thing but >.>
Then again you may get to voice approval from the Champion and possibly win Kiyoko over, which honestly could go a long way toward patching things up between her and Inari Kinu.
Its simply extrapolates the reasoning behind the various characters viewpoints (KInu, Kiyoko, and the champ) about it. Also its a one time talk scene so beware.
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It's Kinu btw, not Kino. Unless there's some spellcheck thing that's screwing with your typing there. :U
Oh I'm not discrediting or criticizing his writing, it's very well written, arguably better than anything I could write, I was just stating my grip with the topic itself. Everyone got a gripe with the game in some way lol
I probably couldn't explain it in a way that justifies my Kitsune pc's viewpoint but the short version is that in his eye's, after everything that's happened so far, he just doesn't see her Kinu in any shape or form as his daughter, the one that he helped raised or spent time with. In her place, he see's the opposite, a complete stranger or somebody so distantly related that they might as well not be related at all. on top of that, after seeing how she acts, how she speaks, etc, even to him, her father in private, especially after she's brushed him off as If he was some stranger, he came to see her as some artificial, fake person he doesn't know and doesn't want to know. To that end, once he came to that conclusion, she essentially became dead to him and would rather disown her rather that acknowledge that stranger as his daughter. He would much rather spend his time on his younger children who could use a father's figure in day to day life than Kinu, a full blown, independent woman that, in his eyes, neither wants or needs him in her life. Is his viewpoint flawed? Judgmental? Why yes it is but that's the magic of role playing. It would be boring if every pc behaved the same way or had the same viewpoints. On a slight note, neither do I or my Kitsune PC wants/wanted her to stay as a child, that would get stale pretty quick. Maybe we'll even see a more aged Kinu in the future.
My Kitsune PC deals with it by pretending she doesn't exist at all and I deal with it by trying not to think about it too much. lol
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That kind of coping mechanism is ironically very Kitsune of you, tuck away and ignore a perceived problem you don't want to see and/or deal with. You're more like her than you probably like to think. xD
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Even Steele has some sort of personality switch you pick at the start and he/she/they is either a complete ass hat or nice person who doesnt step over the line.
Also me being a dead beat dad to my fox floof daughter still stings......
Wasnt that kind of the point Tobs was going for here or so I think I could be wrong, I mean she's already accepted that you were never coming back so she resigned herself and moved on the difference being how both Inari and Hime handle the blow, Inari rebels for a few years against everything earing the scorn of her mother in the process and Hime just focuses more on her studies and pretty much loses her identity and becomes what her mother expects she becomes, there is no good and bad choice here only what kind of person you want her to become.
Absentee might be a better word for it, the Champion (let alone player) can't really be faulted for the capricious flow of time within the Astral Realm. You/they were working hard on getting the whole floof family out of there and you can pitch camp on the den's doorstep to sleep for your buffs in the morning and visit her in the process, but she'll still be a grown woman the next time you meet through no fault of yours.
Also I wouldn't be surprised if the sudden acceleration of relative time in the Astral Plane was Keros' doing to be honest.
Equivalent exchange. The price of freeing Champ's floof family is ten years of their time together.