Some confusion about Kiyoko/Kinu content

[TankHunter678]

Early on in the content Kiyoko talks about how she wants to raise Kinu to not be like the stereotypical kitsune, the elegant mischievous man eating beauty focused sluts that use their beauty and illusions to get what they want.

And all throughout the content as I keep checking up on both of them mentally it was working. Kinu was growing up to be honest, honorable, humble (after she faced adversity), forgiving, diligent, careful, compassionate, with an eye for the future over instant gratification, who listens to her mother and helps the others learn.

Yet when I look at the wiki information... somehow Kinu following what her mother teaches her... would wind up becoming the Elegant Slut who matches the stereotype that Kiyoko was working hard to avoid?

While the note on the wiki does state that much of that is unimplemented and subject to change before final implementation it just seems odd to me that Kinu would wind up becoming that way with how she was being taught. It felt more like Kinu should be on some Imperial Princess route (since its noted that her white hair/fur marks her as being of royal blood) instead. Given that she even winds up sacrificing playing outdoors to make sure that her magic is perfect to be on guard against any future mistakes that could be costly. Showing a dedication to excellence that would be wanted in someone of the Imperial line.

It feels more that spoiling Kinu rotten and thus teaching her that she can use her cuteness and beauty to get what she wants regardless of what her mother says should be the flag that sends her in the direction of that Elegant Slut route.

Though I do not know if there is some limitation that prevents certain routes from just being flag triggered and we are just stuck with just 2 routes on the positive/negative score scale.

 

[Evil]

The thing is, you're missing a lot of context and content. We know that Kinu represents an aspect of the Champion, the ability to learn and master skills quickly, and we know that there's an endgoal for Kinu, with a split along the way. And right now, that's pretty much all we know.

But there's still getting from Point A to Point Z and that's where the context of Kinu's potential change comes in.

 

[The Observer]

Here's some of my thought process when I was writing Kinu's content:

When looking at previous choices made by writers in similar content in TiTs and CoC1, what I wanted to do was avoid obvious "this is corrupt" and "this is good" options in her content. I didn't want either adult version to be all good or all bad, and tried to make the choices in her events be between two virtues instead of a virtue and a vice. Of course, not ALL of them are (eg. sweet potato), but inasfar as possible, that is the case. Value decisions between "eat babies" and "pet kittens" are not interesting to me. I tried to improve upon the design Savin had for Helspawn, and I think I've suceeded somewhat.

That's why both Elegant Slut and Young Inari versions of Kinu have their own pros and cons.

Yet when I look at the wiki information... somehow Kinu following what her mother teaches her... would wind up becoming the Elegant Slut who matches the stereotype that Kiyoko was working hard to avoid?

Yes. Obedience to her mother and their relationship is a good chunk of who Kinu eventually becomes. Young Inari Kinu resents her mother:

Spoiler

She is thoroughly disobedient and oftentimes lonely, and not willing to fake a smile unlike her Elegant Slut counterpart to be polite. In one of the novellas, she actually tries to get her boyfriend to impregnate her so Kiyoko's plans to marry her off will be ruined.

I think the point I'm trying to hammer home here is that neither version of adult Kinu is good or bad. Raising her in a manner that you described -- honest, honorable, humble (after she faced adversity), forgiving, diligent, careful, compassionate, with an eye for the future over instant gratification, who listens to her mother and helps the others learn -- encompasses qualities from both sides of the fence. If you raise her to only be "good", then it depends on which side you picked more of.

Though I do not know if there is some limitation that prevents certain routes from just being flag triggered and we are just stuck with just 2 routes on the positive/negative score scale.

One aspect of this is that with flags, there is no possibility of change once flags are set without save editing. With this scale, at least future events can tip the balance one way or the other without needing to restart.

 

[Tamsee]

Somehow it... did make sense for me for Kiyoko's teaching to potentially turn Kinu into somewhat similar mold if she had just her mother's influence.

For all good intentions Kiyoko spent her time for who knows how many centuries on her lonesome. Even with memories of others she'd keep reverting back to her own habits automatically unless there is an outside influence, like other people. As much as the player tries to keep visits regular, to her it's still weeks between one and another.

 

[runingman69]

Somehow it... did make sense for me for Kiyoko's teaching to potentially turn Kinu into somewhat similar mold if she had just her mother's influence.

For all good intentions Kiyoko spent her time for who knows how many centuries on her lonesome. Even with memories of others she'd keep reverting back to her own habits automatically unless there is an outside influence, like other people. As much as the player tries to keep visits regular, to her it's still weeks between one and another.

With the time she spent alone which iirc was like 200 years or so I'm surprised Kiyoko has not gone insane I think its due to her learning all those skills and trying to keep herself busy. Still it must have took a toll on her sanity.

 

[The Observer]

With the time she spent alone which iirc was like 200 years or so I'm surprised Kiyoko has not gone insane I think its due to her learning all those skills and trying to keep herself busy. Still it must have took a toll on her sanity.

Spoiler

 

[Tericc]

This thread right here pins the very reason im loving CoC2. Just like the first game The Story of this is gana be amazing

 

[SheepyCloud]

So quick question. I've got the Heal spell, and have tried going through the Sick Kinu event both with it equipped and unequipped, and i still can't get the "Heal" option. I'm at the point of just save editing to get every healing skill in the game, and proceed in a process of elimination.

Edit: Found the problem. I usually edit out my Class & Background, to make it a little more difficult to advance in the game. Didn't realize it would smash my face into the wall for some events.

 

[Soldier660]

So quick question. I've got the Heal spell, and have tried going through the Sick Kinu event both with it equipped and unequipped, and i still can't get the "Heal" option. I'm at the point of just save editing to get every healing skill in the game, and proceed in a process of elimination.

Edit: Found the problem. I usually edit out my Class & Background, to make it a little more difficult to advance in the game. Didn't realize it would smash my face into the wall for some events.

Just give her medicine, the Wyldsap, because i feel is stronger and her is you daughther after all.

 

[SheepyCloud]

Just give her medicine, the Wyldsap, because i feel is stronger and her is you daughther after all.

Personally i feel healing is more personal than just getting Wyldsap, it's why I always choose Healing.

 

[SheepyCloud]

Do you have to be a white mage for that or just know the heal spell?

It IS actually a requirement. I have no idea why, but it is. I had the Healing spell learned before i edited out my classes, but it still didn't let me. I even tried editing in every healing spell i knew of, and could find on the Wiki for the game, but it still didn't work. So i got the bright idea of: "Let's see about my Class, maybe that's the problem here." And lo and behold: I was right.

 

[Shadow5]

Just wanted to jump back to the original post. I play as much as myself as possible, and many times ignore the copy written and think how I would've responded in the scene, or what Id've done differently. I state that to explain where I'm coming from.

I think one of the biggest reasons Kinu becomes what she is (both Inari or Hime), is because she loses her father for 10 years. Even Kinu admits it hurt her when you speak to her after they're freed, even though she also admits that she knows you didn't know and had no control over it. As a father, the very thought of first, not being able to be with my wife and children when I want for as long as I want would be hard to accept (while they're trapped in the orb). Losing 5-7 days for every 24hrs (or even 1-2 hours based on gameplay mechanics) would be horribly frustrating if not maddening, and even then only being able to stay for a few hours at best. Kinu as a child is ok with it though, because she knows papa will always come back and he'll spend as much time with her as he can when he does. I'd be so frustrated by not being able to teach her much (if anything) about my culture, being human, give her different perspectives, share artistic endeavors, etc. in the time that we had, as that connection between not just her mother, but her father was/would be the balancing point.

And then one day her papa stops coming.

Kiyoko even says, Kinu changed that day. Whether for better or worse, she becomes focused and loses her childish ways. If I myself as the champion, sat next to her the day after and heard my little Kinu explain what happened to them in the orb, I wouldn't be able to stop crying and saying I'm sorry (knowing full well I had no control, which is the worst part). All I could do is look at my grown daughter, and see the opportunities lost to help her grow and become the mature woman she is/could've been. Yes, Kinu says they can get to know each other from then on, but it's vastly different now. They'll be getting to know each other as adults, but not that special bond of a father and daughter. He had no part in her growth into adulthood, only Kiyoko, except for the little snippets of time together which were so awaited for by Kinu as a child. On top of that, to then step into the compound and see all of the children that barely know him, that he never really had a chance to get to know… I don't know what I would do. I'd honestly question what kind of father I was (again, knowing full well the lack of control over everything while they were all trapped).

The few opportunities to guide Kinu we have do point her down one of the two paths, but if her papa had been there for those 10 years along with her mother? I'm willing to bet she'd be a far different version of those two then what she became without him. Possibly a blend between them. Deep down, I wouldn't be surprised that whether she wants to or not knowing everything she does, she resents her father for not being there. It doesn't mean she doesn't love him, but one day she was a child and the next time they see each other she's a grown woman.

 

[The Observer]

Dragged out from discord some time ago:

***

It does not escape me that every single one of these chucklefucks complaining got Hime Kinu. You'd expect that at least one or two would get Inari if there weren't any other driving factors, but oddly enough, every one is salty about Hime's situation. The character you get if you from one point of view, deliberately try and make her dependent on you.

But the more important thing is that Kinu is a story about growing up and leaving the shadow of your parents. You as the player interact with her when she's a child, and then after that get to see the results of your decisions while being unable to do anything about it from your end because she's her own person now. This is doubly emphasized by the points where you actually play as her from her point of view, and triply so when the first KinuQuest is finally coded and pushes.

It couldn't be more clear if I included the traditional Japanese scene where a daughter refuses to bathe with her father any more. The other complaints on the thread about "why did she have to grow up, I just want a cute kid" stem from the very place that the desire for this particular brand incest in this situation does -- a selfish desire to monopolise a person through their dependency on you. The mere thought of someone discovering more to life and expanding their social circle beyond you terrifies these goons. And for you, it is a story about learning to let go, living with the results of your decisions and understanding that while you may still play a part in your daughter's life you have no further control over her decisions and actions as the champion of Hawkethorne.

 

[The Observer]

You misunderstand, that was dug out from my archive.

Edit: I think I need to explain myself; it's there to explain several of my thought processes behind why things are the way they are, and I was too lazy to type out a whole new post so you'll just have to do with something dragged out from another context.

 

[The Observer]

Never mind. Maybe that wasn't the right quote given this context.

Forget I said anything.

 

[Paradox01]

No, I get it. It's called "frustration", Mal, just not necessarily with people here in this thread. The key is right here:

...I was too lazy to type out a whole new post so you'll just have to do with something dragged out from another context.

(Emphasis mine.)

 

[Alyeska]

I do not know, I found it sad that you are forced to miss so much of the children's growing up, spec with the effert that was put in for the interactions with Kinu. Yet at the same time, it totaly makes sense. I would also say, in a way, it gives you a chance to have adult interactions with one of your children, something that normaly would never happen in the space of this game. How many other of your children do you even get to speak to?
Sorry if this is not very clear, so far I have enjoyed the kitsune content. Yes there have been bits I am unhappy with, but, lets be honest, no one can please everyone all the time. I am very happy with being able to interact with the children. The time gap was also needed to alow you a chance to have more grown up interactions with your kitsune children, also it was needed to alow them to be able to set up there own colony back where you found the orb. Without a number of able warm bodys, Kiyoko and the kids would have been a serious drain on the den elsewise. This way instead of being a drain, they became a boon.
That aside, I am waiting for some good impreg content from the kitsune too. I can totaly see getting drunk with the one fellow, then getting pregnant from him. Ahh such fun.

 

[Shadow5]

You misunderstand, that was dug out from my archive.

Edit: I think I need to explain myself; it's there to explain several of my thought processes behind why things are the way they are, and I was too lazy to type out a whole new post so you'll just have to do with something dragged out from another context.

@The Observer, I just wanted to say as in other posts, I'm not complaining at all about what you've written and created. Your writing has literally become one of the core reasons I constantly replay the Kiyoko story arc, and why I cannot imagine a game without Kiyoko in it. I always end up with Hime Kinu, because knowing that Kiyoko is trying to handle everything, basically on her own, then I'm not going to try and subvert her authority. If my character was real, I would try to do things differently, but not because I don't like what you wrote, but because I love what you've written. I know can still influence Kinu in smaller ways regarding being honest to herself and her love of gardening (the fact that Hime Kinu has a garden behind her house shows that she still retained that love). I've been writing my own fan fiction based on my own character's backstory, and a second about how it flows into the main story because of what you've written. Kiyoko reminds me too much of a woman I dated in college, and Nakano reminds me too much of her father, so that's impressive.

I wrote what I did out of love for that family I've created in the game. I wouldn't care to write about what truly touched my heart, if I didn't enjoy what you created with a clear amount of passion and love for it. The fact that I constantly analyze how I would react, what my own response would be, and that I cry every literal time is a standing ovation from this player.

You've done a great job, and I look forward to more of your storyline for Kiyoko and the den. Do not be discouraged, but please be encouraged to continue.

 

[SheepyCloud]

Dragged out from discord some time ago:

***

It does not escape me that every single one of these chucklefucks complaining got Hime Kinu. You'd expect that at least one or two would get Inari if there weren't any other driving factors, but oddly enough, every one is salty about Hime's situation. The character you get if you from one point of view, deliberately try and make her dependent on you.

But the more important thing is that Kinu is a story about growing up and leaving the shadow of your parents. You as the player interact with her when she's a child, and then after that get to see the results of your decisions while being unable to do anything about it from your end because she's her own person now. This is doubly emphasized by the points where you actually play as her from her point of view, and triply so when the first KinuQuest is finally coded and pushes.

It couldn't be more clear if I included the traditional Japanese scene where a daughter refuses to bathe with her father any more. The other complaints on the thread about "why did she have to grow up, I just want a cute kid" stem from the very place that the desire for this particular brand incest in this situation does -- a selfish desire to monopolise a person through their dependency on you. The mere thought of someone discovering more to life and expanding their social circle beyond you terrifies these goons. And for you, it is a story about learning to let go, living with the results of your decisions and understanding that while you may still play a part in your daughter's life you have no further control over her decisions and actions as the champion of Hawkethorne.

I can understand the like of incest, and the pull it has for some people, but making her dependent, and basically useless (In essence) without their father, is a cruel, and rather back-handed thing to do to someone you're supposed to be the parent of. If they grow up, become mature, less dependent, etc. then it's their choice (And the choice of the writers /shrug) to do those things, leave their parents "wings". (Bit of a reverse on the "taking under wing" thing)

To be mature, and not need to rely on others for everything, is to, honestly: benefit. You don't lose anything by becoming more independent and mature. The same cannot be said for the opposite however. To be more immature, and dependent on someone, means that when that someone is gone, you're bereft of quite a lot, and will suffer in some way.

I personally don't mind the Hime route, but i just (Again, personally) don't like seeing my daughter turned into a man-eating slut. She, (To me at least) looks like someone who sleeps with the entire Kitsune Den, and hungers for more. It's why i prefer the Inari route. Feels more conservative. Also feels like she's more mature, and less reliant on those around her.

Just my two-cents, don't expect any further replies, or comments from me. (I don't check this site unless it shows up in my Email, and i check my email less than once a month)

 

[Starstruck]

To be more immature, and dependent on someone, means that when that someone is gone, you're bereft of quite a lot, and will suffer in some way.
)

See the thing is, the Champion isn't deliberately teaching Hime any of that, unless you're deliberately looking at the Wikipedia for guidance.

They teach her to be sociable, to empathize, to carry herself with the noble bearing befitting her status and lineage, She has a tendency to defer to more experienced authorities but that is not in and of itself a bad thing. It's alright to aknowledge ones own inexperience when you're as young as she is, even if you can't show it.

Yes, it is unfortunate that she ended up becoming dependent on her mother and the Champion, but this is something she can overcome with time.

Inari isn't without her flaws either, her stubborness, and her willfulness is really quite harsh and lacking in compassion for her fellows, something Hime has in spades. (not surprising since their flaws and assets are polar opposites.)

A scene comes to mind where she mediates an arguement for Mai and Komari, and though her verdict hurt Komari's feelings quite a bit the little brat immedeately and selfishly turned her nose up when Mai asked her to help her make it up to Granny, like it wasn't her problem anymore. Instead turning on her heels and dragging Hitoshi with her by the elbow.

 

[Starstruck]

,Komari got upset cause she's too prideful to ignore her own ego for the love of her grand daughter doing something kind for her. It's a well written scene of something completely stupid about rigid cultures and Kinu can see that, Komari should have just taken the gift and thanked Mai, anything else would be a ridiculous display of nonsense.

That's not how I saw it, for Komari it wasn't a matter of pride, nor culture, it was a matter of emotional baggage. You need to consider the extraordinary circumstances of Komari's existence, an undying Yaksha who does not need to eat, drink, sleep, or other... less savory daily needs of the ordinary mortal coil. Kitsune are familial creatures by nature, and Komari has watched her husband, and no less than three generations (Miko, Mai, Nakano and Hitoshi are her great-great-grandchildren, meaning they're four generations removed) of her family come and go, in her unnatural lifetime, and will likely have to do so again with the current generation, and possibly even the next. Because she's not, permitted, to pass on.

Of course any gesture that reminds her of how old she is will hit a sore point. Mai wasn't in the wrong to present the bellywarmer to her Granny, if anything its quite kind and sweet, which is why I chastised Komari for throwing a fit about it, but Inari Kinu certainly was in the wrong to behave the way she did at the end of the scene.

 

[Tristan Black]

I appreciated having a third option here, and using it to show the absurdity of the argument. But Hime Kinu has different priorities than her Inari self, and is likely much more willing to throw a third party under the bus.

 

[The Observer]

Kitsune etiquette isn't there for the sake of being there -- it's not just for their own benefit, but for the benefit of other peoples in their native lands whom they live with. Within vampire society and their own natures, there has to be a very rigid and strict set of rules for how they interact and deal with each other and the people around them. The other peoples of the Old Country have to be assured that no, the vampire cannot do as he pleases, he has to obey the rules and etiquette and play by the numbers; that when you see one of them approach and solicit you know what you are getting yourself into and what your expected rights are under the ancient agreements, and most importantly, who is going to back that up under what penalties.

Spoiler

That's not to mention how they deal with each other. And fighting your innate nature that is not just a switch you can just flick on and off as you please; it's a continuous, perhaps even subconscious effort that permeates your entire life, right down to the correct way to wipe spilt water during the tea ceremony. It may seem ridiculous on the surface, but the little gestures and rituals of deference and acceptance from one person to another form the framework on which the larger society rests and is made to work.

The expectation of people to behave a certain way reduces a lot of potential social uncertainty and friction, which their culture wishes to minimise. There's a right way for everything to be done in their society, and sometimes we don't agree with it, especially from the perspective of the champion who has but scratched the surface of the complex web of etiquette that holds these monsters in check and allows them to function amongst other peoples in their homeland. And we can debate whether it's justified, what happens to the people who don't fit, and the complete passive-aggressive attitude of just being a bit too polite to someone is certainly designed to at least irk, if not offend the sensibilities of the general profile of most players.

 

[Tristan Black]

Yet, being slightly autistc myself, I actually get it. I'm just slightly more lassiez-faire about my inner monster than would be strictly polite in kitsune society.

Their deity gets it though,

Spoiler

since he uses the same approach in not-monstering overall...

 

[Tristan Black]

And not without reason.

 

[Joe the Science Schmoe]

Ah Tobs, like someone said earlier in the thread, these types of discussions are evidence to truly astounding writing. It's rare that fictional characters evoke strong emotions like the ones your characters do, which is why even with all the emotional arm-twists you have presented us with, I end up loving them that much more. So much so, that I have a hard time believing that its possible to skip the Kitsune content with Kiyoko entirely. Cheers to you for that

 

[Joe the Science Schmoe]

To add to the conversation at hand, despite my initial thoughts, I have warmed up to Inari Kinu as the pseudo-canon version to my Champion's story as, at least in my head, it makes the most sense given the character's progression: she had been isolated with her mother (and siblings depending on the player) for a considerable amount of time constantly being groomed to fit her expectations. Being in the face of all that pressure (especially in a place with no escape) and constantly being told who you are and who you will become, coupled with the sudden separation from a parental figure would, to me, certainly spark a desire to act out on ones' own.

Given this, I have come to understand Inari Kinu's disposition and actions towards others, and though it is (intentionally and understandably) sad that she no longer relishes the things she did as a child and that she wishes to live her own life, it is normal. For any parent, releasing their child into the world without being able to watch and advise them constantly is a terrifying prospect, but a necessary one otherwise what would become of us? The same goes for reuniting with your child after being gone for so long; yes the thoughts of what were and what could have been and the guilt of missing out of the most malleable years of ones' development is painful, it is important to accept it and work toward what you can now.

While obstinate and stubborn, Kinu is her own person capable of her own reason and having the player deal with that is something that I find very harrowing and insightful. And while it saddens me to see that Kiyoko and Kind do not get along, I can at least understand why (even though I would love to see a potential patching-things-up-and-moving-on-as-a-family type deal )

TL;DR sorry for yammering on, I deeply enjoy your writing Tobs, (and I hope to spend more time with my firstborn and the rest of my foxy family too )

 

[Starstruck]

I do enjoy that Inari Kinu's relationship with her father is notably closer than Hime Kinu's, in large part because she doesn't particularly care for the Old Country decorum... but not so much when it's at the expense of her relationship with Kiyoko. Hime is a bit more reserved when interacting with her father but it's not as if they don't get along, certainly not in the way that Inari and Kiyoko don't.

I adore both Kinus either way though, which is why I have two champs married to Kiyoko and am considering binding the second one to Keros as well, if only to see how this changes the relationship with Inari Kinu. (I don't think it would really matter none to her though.) xD

 

[Starstruck]

You could always just tuck a save down the list safely and test it a bit to see if it's worth it. Tbh, i've only played with being a Kitsune, i don't want to commit to it this early in the game's development on any of my main saves, i fear more savoury options might crop up, that and i can't make/find a convincing avatar replacement for any of my characters married to Kiyoko.

I also prefer Inari Kinu, it's not because i think she's better though, she just... talks to me, actually talks to me, i just wish i could tell Hime Kinu to drop the bullshit when it's just me and her and actually have an honest conversation with me, her ever-formal manner irritates me when it's just us, makes me feel there's a mile between us no matter how close we sit together.

Yeah I get it, I do. That's why though I was quick to bind my Black Mage to Keros, it wasn't a stretch for her character anyway and it also brings her closer spiritually (and formally) to her daughter, giving Hime the levity she needs to reconnect; I hesitate to do so with the Warrior also. Now as it turned out... Soulbinding pacts don't give any additional bonuses to attributes but that's fine, of the Seven though I think Lumia would speak to him the most, since the DnD character of mine that I based him on is a Paladin of Bahamut, and especially considering with Inari there's much less familial motivation to bargain with Keros when he's already got a healthy relationship with Kinu, and Kiyokp isn't really gonna love the champ any less for just... being themself, and being seen as the 'bumbling outsider' doesn't bother him none anyway. xD

 

[Shadow5]

Yeah I get it, I do. That's why though I was quick to bind my Black Mage to Keros, it wasn't a stretch for her character anyway and it also brings her closer spiritually (and formally) to her daughter, giving Hime the levity she needs to reconnect; I hesitate to do so with the Warrior also. Now as it turned out... Soulbinding pacts don't give any additional bonuses to attributes but that's fine, of the Seven though I think Lumia would speak to him the most, since the DnD character of mine that I based him on is a Paladin of Bahamut, and especially considering with Inari there's much less familial motivation to bargain with Keros when he's already got a healthy relationship with Kinu, and Kiyokp isn't really gonna love the champ any less for just... being themself, and being seen as the 'bumbling outsider' doesn't bother him none anyway. xD

I hope you're right.

While my main Minstrel/Charmer would (and has) aligned with Keros, I'd be worried about how Kiyoko would react to her beloved turning down Keros's offer for one of the other Kami/Divine. First, she's losing out on having a full connection with them if they don't become Kitsune. Second, she's descended from Keros himself, so there may be some conflict from that. Third, she couldn't go against Keros as he has her soul in the Kitsune group soul (I think I got that right. Have to go back and reread a few things). Fourth, Keros could possibly use her soul as a bargaining chip (though I think that's not necessarily his style, but I wouldn't put anything past any of the divine).

At the very least, she'd have some serious questions for the Champion as to why they're going with someone else and not her great, great, great (however many greats) grandfather, and in essence her own people. But I fear it may be more serious than that.