So, let's talk about...alissa...

[Nextgener]

So, I recently made a thread where I wanted to talk about Ryn and all the content around her. Naturally, one of the most prominent part's of her story is he relationship with her sister Alissa. And all this time I could only ever view her in the most negative light possible. The classic mustache twirling villain who's main goal was to make everything and everyone suffer.

But the more I thought, the more I realized something important. Going back and rethinking everything written about her, I ended up coming to a Shocking realization. Alissa has all the making's of a Tragic Villain.

...hear me out on this. (Spoiler's for all of Ryn's and several other quest's from here on)

Much like Alot of people, I naturally hated Everything about Alissa when she was first introduced. It was Intentional to hate her after hearing about everything she's done to Ryn up to that point. Sure, people kept on trying to excuse her action's, but everything really just pointed to too many excuses in the long run to be justifiable. Anything that didn't sound like Zealous Praise from Gytha or Stockholm Syndrome from Ryn just fell on deaf ear's.

So by the end of Demon of the Ice, the only thing that stopped me from outright killing her was my desire to see her suffer in anyway I could think of.

But the more I thought about Ryn, the more I naturally thought about Alissa, and thing's started to seem a little different than what I'd first thought about her. Everything about Alissa's life has just been sort of, well, wrong. Like, Really Wrong.

Being born into nobility is hard enough, but she was born during one of the hardest periods of strife anyone could know. First her mother end's up dying at birth at a...well I wanna say Young age. But young in a very loose definition for a race that lives a long time. But even so, age has little to do with maturity, and knowledge is forged by those around you. (depending on your stance of nature versus nurture that is)

Then her dad get's himself killed, leaving her to take up the mantle at a (relatively) young age. Ontop of that, having to deal with the diplomatic crisis caused by her Grand-Mother's choice of exploiting an alternative means of mining by creating a slush works that caused the locals to rebel against them.

Oh and let's not forget that Lumia also play's a Big part in all of this. Thanks to Ryn asking, we now know that she wanted to save her mother at a young age, but was incapable of doing so at the time. And while that does sound reasonable, you also have to take into consideration that thanks to Elyon's quest that Lumia Did have the power to save they're father. But chose Not too.

Sure there was the excuse that he was reckless and may have given up his life eventually anyway. But that was 2 Parental figures taken out of Alissa's life, and to her eye's Both by Lumia's refusal to act. If that wouldn't cause a crisis of faith, I don't know what would. Oh and let's not forget she was also responsible for the whole Druidic Schism thing.

Lumia by all right's Put Alissa on the throne, forcing her into power before she was ready. Leaving her to deal with massive diplomatic pressure caused by a rising alliance forced onto her by the action's of ancestor's And her God. And Then, Demon's attack.

Honestly, the more I kept thinking about it, the more I realized that Alissia is someone who's Really gotten the short end of the stick in all of this. No, that doesn't excuse all her action's. But taking into account her lack of Role-model's, And how she take's on more of her Father's brash nature. I'm suddenly realizing I'm not surprised she's grown up so messed up. It might seem hard to forgive something like that, but I listened to Mathia when she was obsessed with Berwyn (or wyn) when I finished her quest, and how her desire to help other's lead her down a path of destruction that was only stopped because she cared about other's deep down. I can understand Kassyra's point of view on how she became a Demon, and how everything was forced onto Her, causing her to have to deal with all the problems in her life the only way she thought was right. And she's essentially done Much worse all thing's considered.

So yeah, maybe some people have already seen all this. Maybe the writer's are playing the long game with Alissa down the line, and there really will be some way to redeem her eventually. Or I could just be looking too deep into thing's. But alot of story does hint to the idea that there were Some positive trait's of Alissa we haven't seen because, well it was way too late by then.

But, what's everyone else thought's. Redeemed Alissa down the line (assuming she's still alive in your playthrough), or just have fun shoving pineapples up her ass? (...though come to think of it, I don't know if pineapples are a thing in this universe)

 

[A1teros]

I don't think it'll ever get quite as far as Redeemed Alissa, but yeah this might play a part in why Etheryn still wants to spare Alissa despite being the victim in question. But, cool motive still abuse, ya know? At least this explains why she still has shooters out there though, it'd make sense that people would still rally behind her to some extent.

 

[Acharehnus]

Not everyone can or should be redeemed. Not everyone deserves it.

The sadistic, incestual, mind breaking lady might just be one of those who not only can't be but doesn't deserve to be redeemed.

 

[Afier]

Okay I was not going to post because I was just going to talk about how porn game morality never really works and that would have been off topic, but this:

Not everyone can or should be redeemed. Not everyone deserves it.

The sadistic, incestual, mind breaking lady might just be one of those who not only can't be but doesn't deserve to be redeemed.

No. This is the wrong way of looking at redemption, because it encourages people to push as hard as they can against the person that wronged them, dangling the idea just out of reach so that you may extort more than you should out of them.

If someone doesn't "deserve" redemption, murder them, at least then you'll be honest.

 

[Emily Smith]

I just want to sex Alissa, so I kept her alive.

 

[Koshka]

The sadistic, incestual, mind breaking lady might just be one of those who not only can't be but doesn't deserve to be redeemed.

You've literally just described my character from TiTS. Almost the same in CoC2 (minus that incest part). So I'm going to argue with you for the sake of arguing.

 

[Acharehnus]

No. This is the wrong way of looking at redemption

Nah, it's the exact right way to look at it. Someone wrongs you you don't owe them jack or shit.

 

[Afier]

Nah, it's the exact right way to look at it. Someone wrongs you you don't owe them jack or shit.

I am not saying you do, because it is totally fair to withhold forgiveness, withholding redemption, by contrast, is both the cruelest thing you can do to someone spiritually, and utterly beyond your power.

Forgiveness is something one bestows on those that wronged them, redemption is something one seeks when they have done wrong to others. The only way one can deny others redemption is murder.

 

[Bleh223]

Nope, still hate her. Would've killed her too if Etheryn didn't have a problem with it.

 

[UndyingRevenant]

i mean considering how big of a portion of the game can be devoted to redeeming kas, it'd be hypocritical to do anything else other than save her or offer her an option to redeem herself, also. of course it'd be a good grey-ish option for the player, as it stands with most characters you can either

a. forgive them no matter what, extend a hand, whether it's because you want to save them, or you need them for the world you want to mold, or because you don't like killing (this extends to a secondary option, do you want to make them the best they can be or do you want a war party, and some beings like imps are excluded since they're just flying grapists with no personality)
b. be the center of the universe and choose to save who you like, regardless of how evil, but if you don't like someone then they go in the pit
c. deus vult, all sinners must be purged, "justified" and unjust alike (kitsune purge after the main story, all demons must be eradicated, all corrupted must be eradicated before it spreads, no mercy, no redemption, rip and tear edgelord)

if moral depth was fully implemented then most likely there'd be traitors placed throughout, for example demons you could save, could pledge loyalty and be good, but then suddenly flip and take someone you cared about, and you'd have to read into tips and dialogue to discover whether they could be rehabilitated or not, or possibly just as a risk of trying to save everyone, that eventually there will be some that just like being evil in whatever form. however a majority of the horror level evil currently in the game is in the fine print like in kas' story, otherwise 90% of it is grape played off for faps or forgotten afterward.

on a fundamental level, regardless, imo it has to be etheryn's choice, everything leading there is preparing her for ruling and letting her make her choices, not having you become a replacement alissa who makes her decisions for her, and when she reaches that choice, imo she isn't ready for an execution like that, she's still in a growing phase. regardless of how purely evil alissa is or isn't, you or her killing her sister and having her bleed out on the ground in front of her would be something that would most likely lead to a secondary mental break, (unless it's wrote to be "meh, kinda hard, gotta say, ill be good in a couple hours, we'll bang ok?") or be something that she'd always carry, so the only option forward would be imprisoning alissa, and then eventually, either having her become a new person, or exhaust all options, have etheryn know she did so, and then execute her after she has both grown more and seen herself there's no other options.

personally i like the rp of giving everyone i can another chance, trying to fix or at least stabilize them, and if they're too far gone, putting them down. not only for gameplay, but head canon wise it can also have a domino effect. ie if you "save" corrupted people, more would be likely to easily try to seek help from you, but if you're "john, demonslayer, orcslayer, kitsuneslayer, jaywalker slayer, grapeslayer that also grapes if he feels like it, "minotaurs lookin kinda sus with those slaves", "gods lookin kinda sus ngl", "kitsuneland lookin awful vampire filled" 5th of his name" you're probably going to create a near everlasting war in the name of "justice". seriously diving into spoilers, there's either "acceptable evil" or having to become a quite literal supreme god of slaughter, with enough power behind yourself that nothing could threaten you, god, man or "something else", and assume people will trust you enough that whatever your blade swings at had it coming

 

[Kesil]

I don't know or care about a possible Alyssa redemption, which is why I gave Etheryn the decision of offing her or not. I simply like her kind of characters in smut (minus the abuse).

 

[Bleh223]

Yo this topic reminded me of something

 

[Nextgener]

Yo this topic reminded me of something

View attachment 30239

pffft, yeah. I remember That one.

But even that's got muddier with the New Movies they've put out about her (ad many other's). Which did redemption in all the wrong way's by trying to make Everyone a unjustifiable douche-bag in comparison. (even the fairies for crying out loud)

I don't mind a bad person being bad, which is why I like the original Disney version's of villains (scar being my favorite). Before Everyone had to either be a Surprise villain Or a Sympathetic one. I don't mind them, but they became way too overplayed.

You can just make someone Evil in a Fantasy Story, it's Okay.

 

[Drac33]

i mean considering how big of a portion of the game can be devoted to redeeming kas, it'd be hypocritical to do anything else other than save her or offer her an option to redeem herself ......

Have to disagree. The difference is that Kas committed all her evil acts after losing her soul --- i.e., her ability to care that what she was doing was wrong, even if she still knew it on an intellectual level. Alissa, on the other hand, committed her worst offenses long before losing her soul, back when she still would have been able to care (could have cared, and didn't). There's also the fact that, even as a demon, Kas shows more love and capacity for empathy than Alissa ever did as an elf.

I offed Alissa in my first playthrough of RynQuest (I'm going to spare her in one other, haven't decided on the rest) --- both because it was in-character for my champion, and because I honestly believe it would be the best thing for Ryn in the long run.

See, if you imprison Alissa, Ryn strikes me as the sort who would never be able to let it go. Who would visit her sociopathic big sis in her cell, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, even century after century --- hoping, perhaps even begging, for her to show some remorse, some sign contrition, to simply apologize. An apology which, from everything we know and have seen of Alissa, she would never get, and which could never be trusted even if she did (remember, Alissa had great PR during her reign, despite being an absolute monster in private; she's good at lying to people). Thus, Alissa's continued existence --- the hope it represents, however foolish --- would only ever serve to be a permanent source of pain to Ryn; an open wound that could never be healed. Whereas if she were to die, though it would hurt more in the short term, Ryn could in time actually start to finally accept it and move on, and so suffer a lot less in the long-run.

Ryn's reaction in-game even seems to almost bear this idea out. While she's crying and broken-hearted and upset with you in the moment when you do it, a mere day or two later when you get back to the Winter City she's still declaring her love to you and wanting to lose her virginity with you. And if you talk to her about it after, yes, she's still somewhat hurt, it still being very fresh, but even in that convo she seems to already be at least moving towards getting over it.

Frankly, the only way I could ever see Alissa being actually "redeemed", would be of the "death equals redemption" type --- if, say, she were to jump in front of an arrow or spell or some other lethal blow to save Ryn, thus making her last act in this world the ONLY true act of love towards her sister she's ever done.

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

Personally, I would be hard-pressed to even consider the chance of an eventual redemption worth the risk of just keeping her imprisoned in the first place, given she's now an incredibly powerful and malicious demon. Magic can fail, few things are 100% certain, and risking a rampaging evil bitchlord in the middle of your own lines whilst dealing with all manner of world-threatening crisis is generally considered to be a very unwise tactical maneuver. There's also the possible mental unrest her continued presence could cause for Ryn, if she chooses to visit Alissa before apocalyptical threat #7 is fully mopped up. Not good to have happening to the leader of a species with their collective backs to the wall.

This is with all her crimes, which were genuinely abominable and done largely for personal gain and amusement, and has shown little-to-no redeeming qualities whatsoever. In my opinion, her life is not worth the absurd risk her continued existence presents to thousands of others but I'm also someone who's had to learn to think more teleologically for their career path.

And if someone should like to pull the 'you're thinking too much about it' card, then well I don't find her attractive so by porn game logic she's expendable.

But if someone wants to think she deserves a shot at changing, I can respect that I suppose.

 

[Nextgener]

Have to disagree. The difference is that Kas committed all her evil acts after losing her soul --- i.e., her ability to care that what she was doing was wrong, even if she still knew it on an intellectual level. Alissa, on the other hand, committed her worst offenses long before losing her soul, back when she still would have been able to care (could have cared, and didn't). There's also the fact that, even as a demon, Kas shows more love and capacity for empathy than Alissa ever did as an elf.

I offed Alissa in my first playthrough of RynQuest (I'm going to spare her in one other, haven't decided on the rest) --- both because it was in-character for my champion, and because I honestly believe it would be the best thing for Ryn in the long run.

See, if you imprison Alissa, Ryn strikes me as the sort who would never be able to let it go. Who would visit her sociopathic big sis in her cell, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, even century after century --- hoping, perhaps even begging, for her to show some remorse, some sign contrition, to simply apologize. An apology which, from everything we know and have seen of Alissa, she would never get, and which could never be trusted even if she did (remember, Alissa had great PR during her reign, despite being an absolute monster in private; she's good at lying to people). Thus, Alissa's continued existence --- the hope it represents, however foolish --- would only ever serve to be a permanent source of pain to Ryn; an open wound that could never be healed. Whereas if she were to die, though it would hurt more in the short term, Ryn could in time actually start to finally accept it and move on, and so suffer a lot less in the long-run.

Ryn's reaction in-game even seems to almost bear this idea out. While she's crying and broken-hearted and upset with you in the moment when you do it, a mere day or two later when you get back to the Winter City she's still declaring her love to you and wanting to lose her virginity with you. And if you talk to her about it after, yes, she's still somewhat hurt, it still being very fresh, but even in that convo she seems to already be at least moving towards getting over it.

Frankly, the only way I could ever see Alissa being actually "redeemed", would be of the "death equals redemption" type --- if, say, she were to jump in front of an arrow or spell or some other lethal blow to save Ryn, thus making her last act in this world the ONLY true act of love towards her sister she's ever done.

Good statement's, but also going to disagree on some point's.

We only know what Kas has told us from Her point of view. We have no real idea what her life was before she became a demon. And sadly we can't because she comes from a different dimension. So unless enough people are around to recount her actions before she lost her soul, we can only take what she say's at face value. Which, given the fact that she still show's little care about how much pain and suffering she inflicts in order to achieve her goals, kind of does say alot about her in general.

Mallach even state's that Kas doesn't really understand love anymore because she's lost her soul, which is further reinforced by the way we hear she treat's her own daughter's from Aileh's perspective. Treating people more like Pet's than emulating real emotion towards them. Which tracks considering the soul in this universe is directly tied to your emotional state and understanding of things like empathy. Only handing it over to a god do you keep yourself grounded, because something is replaced that keeps you connected to your sense of self.

Alissa did commit terrible act's while she had her soul, but the context of any being born in nobility without proper upbringing's Not ending up messed up at some point in they're lives is rather rare. (see any classical history books of early European upbringing's for a wild time)

Ryn is the type of person who'd care for her sister long enough to try anything to get her back, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Because unless as stated depending on the character your playing as, there are alot of options to do the same thing with other's in game. And I do appreciate that there are so many options to allow to play depending on what your preferences are. If Kas is redeemable, then it stands to reason Alissa also has a shot. And taking into account that well stand behind her Despite her action's she's taking (and still will while being Free mind you), like they said, it'd be hypocritical to think it's impossible.

Ryn will of course forgive you for killing her. It makes sense seeing as your the one's responsible for getting her this far. But is that right? Because that's Your choice, not there's. When the option "Let Ryn decide" come up, I couldn't not take it because it's what she need's to decide as a proper ruler should, because it's Her family and Her responsibility. While it would have been interesting to see some negative ramification's come out of that decision, I can understand why she wouldn't hold so much of a grudge (and the outcry of people being pissed because it ). But thinking the scar wouldn't cut deep of seeing her sister die right before her is...well, let's just say family is complicated and leave it there. Is it the right action? It's one of those only time will tell situation's, because unless a redemption path is planned ahead, it's gonna be up to us to decided what the outcome was.

As for the statement of "Only Death equals redemption", sorry but that's a Hard no. That's a shortcut that only those who aren't willing to work towards a difficult path aren't meant to take decide on. I'm not saying that everyone is redeemable, but I am saying not even Trying is as bad as saying force is the only option to a negative outcome. The type of dystopian future that leads to littering equaling the death penalty. (ridiculous i know, but it gets the point across)

Let's not forget that there is a force in this world that has the power to fix this. Lumia. As her adherent god, and someone who's had a Huge influence on Alissa, and has through Action and Inaction set this whole path of Alissa and Ryn down this path to begin with. In my head, I can already see a confrontation between the 2 which...well let's just say it involves alot of swearing.

But in the end if even they're god can't help, then I'd say it's fair to look at this as a lost cause. And justify her death as the best outcome. But if not, well...I won't go into details because I'd just end up writing my own fan-fiction at that point.

 

[Nextgener]

Personally, I would be hard-pressed to even consider the chance of an eventual redemption worth the risk of just keeping her imprisoned in the first place, given she's now an incredibly powerful and malicious demon. Magic can fail, few things are 100% certain, and risking a rampaging evil bitchlord in the middle of your own lines whilst dealing with all manner of world-threatening crisis is generally considered to be a very unwise tactical maneuver. There's also the possible mental unrest her continued presence could cause for Ryn, if she chooses to visit Alissa before apocalyptical threat #7 is fully mopped up. Not good to have happening to the leader of a species with their collective backs to the wall.

This is with all her crimes, which were genuinely abominable and done largely for personal gain and amusement, and has shown little-to-no redeeming qualities whatsoever. In my opinion, her life is not worth the absurd risk her continued existence presents to thousands of others but I'm also someone who's had to learn to think more teleologically for their career path.

And if someone should like to pull the 'you're thinking too much about it' card, then well I don't find her attractive so by porn game logic she's expendable.

But if someone wants to think she deserves a shot at changing, I can respect that I suppose.

From a purely mercenary stand point, I can actually get behind what your saying. In fact, doing Lumia's quest proves what happens when you leave a potential risk sitting for too long and not doing anything about it. Compassion may have been the reason, but the outcome almost ended everything she'd been working towards to a point she Needed to end it. So your not wrong on imprisonment potentially causing more problems down the line, and I won't fault the writer's for bringing that up if say, the Wayfort comes under siege down the line. And weather it was Your character's decision or Ryn's will affect how you both feel by the end of the situation if your forced to end her life at That point.

I've already gone into details in the previous post about her actions, so feel free to read that. But I never agree with the "Your thinking too much" argument, because that imply that every character is nothing more than plot convince built for your character to Bone. Which it clearly isn't since there are character's you Can't bone because it wouldn't make any sense too.

But yeah, I really like how different perspective's can offer different interpretation's on the idea. Because doing Lumia and Gweyr's quest really gives you the idea that people (and god's) don't just do things in this universe because it's the strict Right or Wrong thing to do. They do it because they feel it's what they Have to do. Which is why I'm not faulting anyone for thinking Alissa is strictly irredeemable in they're eye's. I've come to realize that may not be the case, but I can also see the cases against those being true. (seeing as I literately Was one of those people)

Can't tell if it's Funny or Sad I can think about this more than I can "Modern Gaming" experiences. Kind of reminds me of the Old Star Trek day's. Back when they actually cared about exploring and asking hard question's over...whatever Star Trek Picard was.

 

[Drac33]

...... As for the statement of "Only Death equals redemption", sorry but that's a Hard no. That's a shortcut that only those who aren't willing to work towards a difficult path aren't meant to take decide on. I'm not saying that everyone is redeemable, but I am saying not even Trying is as bad as saying force is the only option to a negative outcome. The type of dystopian future that leads to littering equaling the death penalty. (ridiculous i know, but it gets the point across) ......

I think you may have misunderstood me. I never said only death can equal redemption; I just said that's the only way I can ever imagine Alissa, specifically, being redeemed.

Because even if sometime down the line she did apologize, did show remorse, like I said it could never be trusted. And even if she were honest in her contrition, it wouldn't matter; the things she did to Ryn can never be made up for (much less set right). Even if she were truly remorseful, the absolute best she could ever deserve would be spending the rest of her natural life in a jail cell.

The reason I say only death can equal redemption in her case (a la the sacrifice example I gave), is because it would be the only act of penance from her that could be trusted --- a clear, unambiguous, utterly selfless act, which by its very nature also precludes any future recidivism.

Your dystopian littering example (though deliberately exaggerated) also kind of misses the point. Because whatever damage littering does, redemption for it is easy; simply pick up the trash (at most, be made, community service style, to pick up more trash than you ever carelessly threw away, to underscore the point that it's a bad thing). The things Alissa did, again, literally can't be made right or undone (save by time-travel or memory alteration, the former of which is silly and generally impossible; the latter of which has MASSIVE ethical problems. I'm looking at you, the movie "Frozen"). Most of the things Kas has done --- turning people into demons, primarily --- conversely can be set right; the Gods in this world explicitly have the ability to restore souls to the afflicted, if given their lethicites, as Mallach states during the "Temple of Sin" event.

 

[Revenant]

I leave Alissa alive just so I can sex her eventually, personally I would love to just find something like Jael'yn's ring or a slave collar/spell and make her wear it, that would give her a taste of Etheryn's life before and let you keep her and her corruption in check since it seems not even demons can take it off.

I don't care about redeeming her I'd rather just own her and that's it, if she ends up better for it in the future then that's just a plus for me.

 

[HK-47]

Personally, I would be hard-pressed to even consider the chance of an eventual redemption worth the risk of just keeping her imprisoned in the first place, given she's now an incredibly powerful and malicious demon. Magic can fail, few things are 100% certain, and risking a rampaging evil bitchlord in the middle of your own lines whilst dealing with all manner of world-threatening crisis is generally considered to be a very unwise tactical maneuver. There's also the possible mental unrest her continued presence could cause for Ryn, if she chooses to visit Alissa before apocalyptical threat #7 is fully mopped up. Not good to have happening to the leader of a species with their collective backs to the wall.

This is with all her crimes, which were genuinely abominable and done largely for personal gain and amusement, and has shown little-to-no redeeming qualities whatsoever. In my opinion, her life is not worth the absurd risk her continued existence presents to thousands of others but I'm also someone who's had to learn to think more teleologically for their career path.

And if someone should like to pull the 'you're thinking too much about it' card, then well I don't find her attractive so by porn game logic she's expendable.

But if someone wants to think she deserves a shot at changing, I can respect that I suppose.

This. All of this. It’s why I bring Arona along so she can smash Alissa’s skull into her ribcage.

 

[luciel1331]

Ryn's reaction in-game even seems to almost bear this idea out. While she's crying and broken-hearted and upset with you in the moment when you do it, a mere day or two later when you get back to the Winter City she's still declaring her love to you and wanting to lose her virginity with you. And if you talk to her about it after, yes, she's still somewhat hurt, it still being very fresh, but even in that convo she seems to already be at least moving towards getting over it.

Wait, quick question. She does confess to the champ even if champ kills alissa themselves? I tried doing all the option from arona killing her, daliza killing her and even sparing Alissa. But ryn never seem to confess love to mc when PC kills Alissa themself?? only if someone else does it she seems to confess to mc. Is this a bug?

 

[Nextgener]

I think you may have misunderstood me. I never said only death can equal redemption; I just said that's the only way I can ever imagine Alissa, specifically, being redeemed.

Because even if sometime down the line she did apologize, did show remorse, like I said it could never be trusted. And even if she were honest in her contrition, it wouldn't matter; the things she did to Ryn can never be made up for (much less set right). Even if she were truly remorseful, the absolute best she could ever deserve would be spending the rest of her natural life in a jail cell.

The reason I say only death can equal redemption in her case (a la the sacrifice example I gave), is because it would be the only act of penance from her that could be trusted --- a clear, unambiguous, utterly selfless act, which by its very nature also precludes any future recidivism.

Your dystopian littering example (though deliberately exaggerated) also kind of misses the point. Because whatever damage littering does, redemption for it is easy; simply pick up the trash (at most, be made, community service style, to pick up more trash than you ever carelessly threw away, to underscore the point that it's a bad thing). The things Alissa did, again, literally can't be made right or undone (save by time-travel or memory alteration, the former of which is silly and generally impossible; the latter of which has MASSIVE ethical problems. I'm looking at you, the movie "Frozen"). Most of the things Kas has done --- turning people into demons, primarily --- conversely can be set right; the Gods in this world explicitly have the ability to restore souls to the afflicted, if given their lethicites, as Mallach states during the "Temple of Sin" event.

Trust is an interesting point to bring up. Because we don't actually know Alissa well enough to really gauge her trust levels. We can't really count giving up to demon's as a sticking point, because trying to fight Kas would be like trying break down a brick wall with your bare fist's. Not a good idea in the long run. So surrendering to them was the smart move, albiet she did so more willingly than acceptable.

When you said you can't imagine redemption for Alissa because of all she's done, I did see your point before I started thinking about it. But in universe, that wouldn't really make alot of sense when you consider there Are so many options. Why would you let someone with so much power and potential rot in a cell?

What about joining Lumias order to fight the rest of the demon's or the wraith's that are still a problem? What about using her knowledge and skills to train other's about what she knows? What about just her trying to help in lands that don't even know about her past? (can name a ton of story's where that's a thing)

Would it take her entire life? Oh yeah, no question. But remember, she's an Boreal Elf. She's gonna live Alot longer than the average person. That's Alot of time to make up for all the mistakes you've made. She can't fix everything she's broken clearly. But the point of my statement's was to not look at everything in such an extreme way as "It's Impossible for this to happen".

I'm not saying you Have to agree weather it's the right thing to do. But, that's kind of why she's actually a really good character at the end of the day. From a purley story telling perspective that is. It's one of those character's you Want to judge because you've seen and heard all the terrible thing's they've done and want to call them a monster for it. But she's not a monster, she's just a person who's had a really, Really messed up life. A life which like Gytha said, we've only seen a very small portion of in the grand scheme of things.

 

[UndyingRevenant]

Have to disagree. The difference is that Kas committed all her evil acts after losing her soul --- i.e., her ability to care that what she was doing was wrong, even if she still knew it on an intellectual level. Alissa, on the other hand, committed her worst offenses long before losing her soul, back when she still would have been able to care (could have cared, and didn't). There's also the fact that, even as a demon, Kas shows more love and capacity for empathy than Alissa ever did as an elf.

I offed Alissa in my first playthrough of RynQuest (I'm going to spare her in one other, haven't decided on the rest) --- both because it was in-character for my champion, and because I honestly believe it would be the best thing for Ryn in the long run.

See, if you imprison Alissa, Ryn strikes me as the sort who would never be able to let it go. Who would visit her sociopathic big sis in her cell, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, even century after century --- hoping, perhaps even begging, for her to show some remorse, some sign contrition, to simply apologize. An apology which, from everything we know and have seen of Alissa, she would never get, and which could never be trusted even if she did (remember, Alissa had great PR during her reign, despite being an absolute monster in private; she's good at lying to people). Thus, Alissa's continued existence --- the hope it represents, however foolish --- would only ever serve to be a permanent source of pain to Ryn; an open wound that could never be healed. Whereas if she were to die, though it would hurt more in the short term, Ryn could in time actually start to finally accept it and move on, and so suffer a lot less in the long-run.

Ryn's reaction in-game even seems to almost bear this idea out. While she's crying and broken-hearted and upset with you in the moment when you do it, a mere day or two later when you get back to the Winter City she's still declaring her love to you and wanting to lose her virginity with you. And if you talk to her about it after, yes, she's still somewhat hurt, it still being very fresh, but even in that convo she seems to already be at least moving towards getting over it.

Frankly, the only way I could ever see Alissa being actually "redeemed", would be of the "death equals redemption" type --- if, say, she were to jump in front of an arrow or spell or some other lethal blow to save Ryn, thus making her last act in this world the ONLY true act of love towards her sister she's ever done.

To a point I agree, however first off we have to acknowledge that morals in the coc2 verse have greater limits for high and low. Using Kas again as a comparison, if we rely on acts and not feelings, her compassion or love doesn't matter. (moving forward, considering the nature of the game, I'll assume the hard r word is fair game but trigger warning or whatever) She rapes whatever she wants that breeds imps that rape whatever they want, which also is heavily implied to include the mother upon birth. she also keeps slaves she rapes and impregnates with imps in a basement in the ways between, This also causes people to become brainwashed or rewritten as a being, with more extreme cases being like her "teases" during dreams where she is shown capable to turn some companions (namely cait's) into meat puppets with overwritten personalities and desires.

This is mostly played off but in the case of someone actually recovering their soul, they'd wake up to knowing they were used by countless people or creatures. Not everyone would be ok with this (OBVIOUSLY). During the winter city event, whether through direct action or accident, she opens a rift that let a lovecraft level existential threat into the dimension, that was only partially "fixed" that we know of by direct god level intervention. afterward there still appears to be "residue" left over leading to even more taint and corruption of the natural world than kasyrra originally brought. that alone is grounds for her to be put down, even if you earn the gods favor enough, she's not stopping and unpredictable, the next time might not be so simple, and if you continue to support her then that would mean supporting her actions and having to stand against the gods, and by extension the majority of the known world, because she wants a kid and can't have one which is very sad and she feels bad about ripping open a hole in space and letting a living black hole through. Through the bad end of the frost smith it's also nearly completely written that if your soul becomes unavailable and she loses her "easy" option, she systematically kills the gods, absorbs their power, and becomes a Higher God that has no real place for a personality anyway, showing in the near future she is a direct threat both to the land and to the gods and whatever else she deems a target.

Or Matiha, who essentially reached the level of mages the prologue mentions and essentially became a wraith and lovecraft level threat herself, with the ability to drain others power limitlessly and with the goal of taking an entire continent into the ways between, becoming her domain, and past that who knows what else, possibly eventually overtaken with power and just become a full high level wraith.

Alissa did bad things but in comparison to world eaters nothing that was a blip on the radar. yeah she abused etheryn bad, abuse is pretty widespread though, even from day one you have people being raped and impregnated with eggs. she seems so bad because of feeling and care for etheryn, not for direct actions. she only became as much of a problem as she did because of kas, otherwise it would have been natural politics, horrors of war, and overthrowing, it was only through kas' attack on the city and directly empowering her that she was able to do as much as she did, regardless of how bad alissa could have been afterward, which in comparison was very manageable, kas is again the root cause.

it is double standards to refuse alissa a second chance, but to give world enders, abusers, those who make a mockery of natural order and life a second chance, while "well she abused my wife and was corrupted and empowered by kas" is grounds for execution on the spot, especially when etheryn is directly implied to still care for her enough to forgive her, and no, considering how when you first meet her she needs constant hugs and validation from a stranger she met on the road, i don't think there's a world where she should be able to see a relative she loves' throat slit and bleed out on the ground in front of her and get over it in a few days. if letting her live is something she'd never let go, the alternative also wouldn't be let go. she wouldn't do it herself, and from that day forward she would always remember you gave the order, you killed her sister, she would remember her sisters blood on the floor, and will always carry that and that there was a chance she could still be saved. incredibly tough people have been broken by death and murder, no i dont see her at that point of growth or even in the near future being able to take something like that, at low confidence especially, and at max confidence she's still in a state of needing to be fully supported by the pc. regardless of dialogue after making that choice she couldn't take that level of trauma when she probably hasn't even experienced a pet dying yet, and even if she did, no friggin way would it be two days, it'd be at minimum a reset of her affection and having to build her back up again, or seeing you more and more with resentment.

Alissa still is connected through her feelings for her sister, they're far less pure than Matiha's (which were already a problem) but through that anchor there is still a route for her to eventually be saved, since there is something she is connected to and isn't just walking chaos. death equals redemption would be a cop out, and most likely it would be a very long term thing, however there's many ways you could, say, sit outside her cell with etheryn and talk with her, especially if you save gytha, since she's one of alissa's only loyalists she could also participate and help alissa rebuild as a better person that could eventually be a sister and/or lover, unless you write alissa to be purely "GRRR ME RAPE SISTER ME LOCK HER IN BOX ME ANGY ME BAD PERSON GRRRRR". tons of far more evil characters have had redemption arcs, even in this game alone. vast majority of characters so far seem redeemable besides imps and "EVIIIIIIILLLLLL" generic bald man and crew.

 

[Emily Smith]

Wait, quick question. She does confess to the champ even if champ kills alissa themselves? I tried doing all the option from arona killing her, daliza killing her and even sparing Alissa. But ryn never seem to confess love to mc when PC kills Alissa themself?? only if someone else does it she seems to confess to mc. Is this a bug?

. I killed her on my DK route as I didnt have the dungeon and Ryn still said she loved the dkhead champ. Only 2 playthroughs where she was killed, the rest I kept her alive.

 

[Drac33]

...... Alissa did bad things but in comparison to world eaters nothing that was a blip on the radar. yeah she abused etheryn bad, abuse is pretty widespread though, even from day one you have people being raped and impregnated with eggs. she seems so bad because of feeling and care for etheryn, not for direct actions. ......

I don't want to get this topic too bogged down in moral philosophizing, so I'll just say one last thing:

The reason I view Alissa as far worse than Kas isn't just because I like Ryn. For all the terrible things Kas does, and the knock-on effects therefrom (such as the overly egg-happy rape-hornets), there never seems to be any real sense of maliciousness to them. In a way she's almost tantamount to a natural disaster, like a tornado or tidal-wave that just sweeps through an area out of nowhere leaving wreckage in its wake --- impersonal, and fundamentally incapable of understanding or caring about the potential suffering it leaves behind, or even why anyone would have a problem with it at all.

While Alissa's acts might be very small-scale and non-world-threatening by comparison, in a sense that's why I see them as worse --- because they are so intensely personal. It takes, in my opinion, a special kind of evil to be so knowingly, deliberately, ceaselessly, even calculatingly cruel to another person for so long --- particularly one's own kin. Kas might occasionally be callous (such as Alissa's birthing scene), but so far as I can recall she never goes out of her way to deliberately inflict pain, much less revel in doing so.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Nextgener]

I don't want to get this topic too bogged down in moral philosophizing, so I'll just say one last thing:

The reason I view Alissa as far worse than Kas isn't just because I like Ryn. For all the terrible things Kas does, and the knock-on effects therefrom (such as the overly egg-happy rape-hornets), there never seems to be any real sense of maliciousness to them. In a way she's almost tantamount to a natural disaster, like a tornado or tidal-wave that just sweeps through an area out of nowhere leaving wreckage in its wake --- impersonal, and fundamentally incapable of understanding or caring about the potential suffering it leaves behind, or even why anyone would have a problem with it at all.

While Alissa's acts might be very small-scale and non-world-threatening by comparison, in a sense that's why I see them as worse --- because they are so intensely personal. It takes, in my opinion, a special kind of evil to be so knowingly, deliberately, ceaselessly, even calculatingly cruel to another person for so long --- particularly one's own kin. Kas might occasionally be callous (such as Alissa's birthing scene), but so far as I can recall she never goes out of her way to deliberately inflict pain, much less revel in doing so.

Just my 2 cents.

Hey, if it's a Good (and civil) discussion, I see no problem with talking about it for awhile. Especially if everyone bring up good points on the matter. The whole concept of humanity is basically one of the biggest topics in philosophy, and it's always interesting to see different views on the matter.

But now were getting into the morals of personal responsibility. Kas is still a sentient being, so regardless of how it might seem to someone, we can't just freely dismiss her action's as something that can be written off as "That's just the way she is". Because just because she smile's and can be nice at times, doesn't mean Alissa can't either.

In fact, let's not forget that there are 2 versions of Kas. The one you can Romance and the one you Can't. If you choose to go against Kas at every turn, the story changes to the point she Is the evil villain of the story, and something you have to destroy. She's toy's with you and at the end of the Winter City just takes you out without effort. In each instance of you not succeeding to stop her in some way or another, Kas is proven to be a threat until the very end.

You might have the choice to work with Kas, but you never get the choice to work with Alissa. She's already the villain by the time you meet her. We can't have a discussion about how she's treating Ryn. We can't get her view on her upbringing. We can't ask her about her views on Lumia, The Druidic Schism or the growing Alliance.

When diplomacy Is an option, I'm always the first to take it. Not just because it's the logical thing to do, but because it's what's most Worth trying before anything else. Ryn knows that, which is why she try's so hard. Not just against her sister, but in any situation she gets the chance too.

It's easy to dismiss Alissa's actions as evil, but that can be done with Anyone. Ryn comment's on how she has a sick state of mind, and she is not wrong. But the keyword is "Sick". Something that need's to be treated. And it's not surprising when as I stated, she was born into nobility. Ontop of having both her parent's die, giving her little to no guidance growing up and everything else involved, I'd be more shocked if she grew up normal. Going back to the whole nature versus nurture point, I'm always on the mind of a person's environment shaping they're morals. And how does people who are literately looking up too you no matter what And going to give you absolute power eventually sound? Power is a hell of a drug, and again, knowing she's stated to take more after her father, this all sounds like a warrior's way of looking at things. She always talks about Strength above all and Claiming everything for herself. It's a very Arona way of looking at things, but only taken to it's extreme.

I also wouldn't be thinking about this if there was 1 important outlier in all this. And that's Gytha. A person who's stated we don't know Alissa as well as we think. And if you manage to imprison her uncorrupted, she does tell you a bit of how she cam to care about her so much. Not through manipulation, but seeing her potential and wanting her by her side. That really does not sound like something, well, we'd do as a PC.

All this just makes me think there's a version of Alissa that, if given a different situation, could haved turned out different. But again, it's all just speculation on my part. We don't Know Alissa well enough to guage who she really is. We know she did bad, things, and we know she's done good things. But we've only ever had fragment's of who she is at the end of the day. Which makes me think that the direction she could go screams as having alot potential. And if the writer's decide to bank in on that, weather she ends up truly becoming a major threat in the end or a redemption arc, I'm interested to see play out. If not, like I said, it'll be up for us to decide in the end.

 

[UndyingRevenant]

too bogged down in moral philosophizing

Yeah I probably did that, my bad. Overall it's a grey choice with a perfectly reasonable choice to kill her also, and most likely whether she lives or dies would affect Etheryn regardless. Without being a contrarian any more, in large part I like Alissa because imo she's a good "playground". Tons of options corrupt or less so like giving her her own chastity belt and making her beg for release, banging etheryn while she watches in a corner, threesomes with gytha and/or etheryn or whoever, having her own "confidence" stat where she becomes more dommy or mind broken, punishing her actions by removing all her titles, making her a concubine and her and all her future children removed from the family and ineligible for nobility while all the while she watches her sister who she had so many plans for within arms length but forever out of reach. i guess as a super corrupt option just let her become a public use prostitute you earn money from. from two sides i'd like her to step on me but also death is easy, and if she doesn't straighten up dead hos don't make money

 

[luciel1331]

. I killed her on my DK route as I didnt have the dungeon and Ryn still said she loved the dkhead champ. Only 2 playthroughs where she was killed, the rest I kept her alive.

Thanks for the help. I figured out what I did wrong. In the run that did kill Alissa, I also killed Alissa's corrupted personal guards. Apparently killing the underling knocks down Etheryn's confidence by 10 and killing Alissa also knocks down Etheryn's confidence by 15 which ended up putting Etheryn's confidence to mid-confidence in her uncaged scene in that playthrough (the playthrough had ryn's confidence as 95 and doing both of these actions put her confidence down to 70). The confession scene only seems to trigger if Etheryn has high confidence.

 

[Lucky_I]

I let Ryn handle it. Not my place to decide as I'm not the afflicted party, she is. Plus Ryn's a big girl and suppose to be Queen, so now she has to put on her big girl pants and make decisions. And whatever happens happens. My Champ will be there ready to help should anything come from it.

Had that not been an option, then I'd imprison her in hopes of rehabilitation. I'd be a huge hypocrite otherwise.

 

[A1teros]

Yeah regardless of what she deserves, I don't think Champ is the one to be carrying out that sentence. She should be judged by the laws of the Winter City. Kas we DO decide, because everyone is affected and Kas is subject to no one so it falls on us to pass judgement as her target and the one strong enough to even do so. Well, aside from the gods but apparently they've got their own problems and this isn't hopeless enough for them to intervene.