Ship Stuff that needs a conversation.

[Foxxling]

The reason for this thread is simple: People writing ship events need to be able to reference the ship in a way that allows for general usage and includes potential use for future ships. Now while I believe each ship will probably have its own parser system similar to an npc (describing its stats, color(s), capicity, etc) I also believe a ship classification

• I believe ship quality should be classified the standard S;A;B;C;D;F system based on the overall quality of the ship. This would be independent of whether or not a ship has advanced weapons/shields but instead acts as a summary of the ships appearance and performance. 
  
• For ship size a word based ship classification system similar to the system currently used in naval classification seems best because it is familiar. Now current naval classification is a bit wordy for the casual observer so this system should be simplified and modified for space. Two classification systems would be needed. One for the large main ship and another for auxiliary vessels. Auxillary vessels would have alternate classification based on their purpose.
  Large Vessels: Capital; Carrier; Dreadnought; Cruiser; Frigate; Corvette
  Small Vessels: Fighters; Interceptors; Shuttles; Research Vessels; drop ships; etc
  
• Shields: The current shield system where you have a specific shield should be fine. It should be noted that if a ship has certain personal they may act as perks/bonuses to things concerning this system. Ways crew members effect shields could be anything like giving the vessel a static shield bonus; increasing recharge rate; converting shield power to energy or vise, versa; etc
  
• Armor: The current armor tags with additions for armor that can only be used by ships. It should be noted that if a ship has certain personal they may act as perks/bonuses to things concerning this system. Armor bonuses given by crew members can be anything like increased defense against certain damage types or even reflecting/absorbing certain damage types. 
  
• Weapons: The current weapon flags and damage type system would be usable here. However a ship can have several different weapons so during ship combat there should be options to use specific guns on a specific. Right now I believe a "Main Gun" would be a good weapon slot with the rest being delegated to "auxiliary weapons" and "support weapons" slots. It should be noted that if a ship has certain personal they may act as perks/bonuses to things concerning this system.
  

Keep in mind that ships are planned to be upgradable as well so any ship classification system would have to take into account that a ships stats are fluid and not static. Also, as said several times above, certain crewmembers have an impact on your ship's stats, perks and/or utility.


The above system is jus one I've thought of while writing up stuff for ship threats. It isn't endorsed by Fen, Savin or Gedan and is subject to change and possibly not gonna be used at all. What I would like is for us as a community to talk about the future ship system and what we want to see as well as what should be taken into account. The advantages/disadvantages of any proposed system should also be noted.

 

[Klaptrap]

Will ships be staffed? And with staff I'm referring to nameless, generic sentients who perform the sort of day to day tasks that keep a ship working. Right now it sounds like the only crew will be the player and various followers.

 

[f4s1k1n]

I think it will be easier if the staff is just android that will be controlled with ship's AI (Hand So maybe), and when there are followers who knowledgable to a certain area of the ships (cleaning, engineer, navigator, etc), the android will be replaced with the mentioned follower,,,

 

[Nonesuch]

The problem with all this stuff, Foxocube, is that not even Fen or Savin know how the ship-side of the game is going to function yet, beyond very vague ideas + The Silence tech-demo. So you and "the community" can come up with stuff like this til you're blue in the face, it won't count for jack when the dev team finally sit down and properly plot it out. This is why I've not done anything seriously technical with HS yet; it's almost certainly wasted effort.


I appreciate that it's annoying having this big grey area sitting there when you're building recruitable characters. Just try and work around it and be flexible about what they might theoretically be able to do once on-board HMS Pinnawhore.

 

[Magic Ted]

Do me a favor and describe how any of this would be used, though. A, how are you really going to do a ship event? You're not the ship. This sounds a lot like some sort of equipment gate of "Did you spend enough money? If yes, this happens" which is pretty meh. Ignoring most of this are combat stats, really.


Regardless, stop yourself. Take the usual parser approach. Imagine scenes and events you'd like to write; what parser calls might you need? Reference it and it will be added to the initial list. Reference it later and it'll be added then.

 

[Foxxling]

The problem with all this stuff, Foxocube, is that not even Fen or Savin know how the ship-side of the game is going to function yet, beyond very vague ideas + The Silence tech-demo. So you and "the community" can come up with stuff like this til you're blue in the face, it won't count for jack when the dev team finally sit down and properly plot it out. This is why I've not done anything seriously technical with HS yet; it's almost certainly wasted effort.


I appreciate that it's annoying having this big grey area sitting there when you're building recruitable characters. Just try and work around it and be flexible about what they might theoretically be able to do once on-board HMS Pinnawhore.

The above system is jus one I've thought of while writing up stuff for ship threats. It isn't endorsed by Fen, Savin or Gedan and is subject to change and possibly not gonna be used at all. 

I know, I said as much in the op, its just bugging me so i'm creating the space for people to talk about it. 


Besides Fen and company are going to be thinking about it eventually and they read the threads so even if it only acts as a list of things that the community wants to communicate to Team Fen that'd be fine.


if they hate every suggestion... that's fine too.


-----

Do me a favor and describe how any of this would be used, though. A, how are you really going to do a ship event? You're not the ship. This sounds a lot like some sort of equipment gate of "Did you spend enough money? If yes, this happens" which is pretty meh. Ignoring most of this are combat stats, really.


Regardless, stop yourself. Take the usual parser approach. Imagine scenes and events you'd like to write; what parser calls might you need? Reference it and it will be added to the initial list. Reference it later and it'll be added then.

uses

1. Mostly conversationally. In a conversation you can reference ship quality like {if shipClass = F: [shipName] is a piece of shit}. The class system is just a way to reference quality. Games use this with all sorts of things. You have your rare, legendary and other such classification to show that this item is in a tier of items that are worth this much. Same thing with size in a conversation where someone is either impressed with the size of your ship (insert dick joke here) or mocking you about how tiny it is (ditto).
   
2. To make ship references consistent across the board. the ship size classification system can be used to reference all ships of that size and makes sense since they use it irl and in most fantasy games. This is useful as a selling point but things being consistent across the board also makes sure an A-class ship isn't described in a way that makes it seem like its better than an S-class ship because it happens to have more cabin space.
   
3. Immersion: probably the most important thing story wise. Ships use a more complicated version of the ship size system proposed. The SABCDF class system has been used in games for a host of reasons ranging from objects to skills. I mean even with our cars we have different classes and designations to say "These are all luxury vehicles" or "These are all performance vehicles". This is a simplified version saying F: These suck // D: These slightly less sucky // E: Economy aka cheap but within standard safety regulations // C: Economy + // B: high performance/quality // A: Advanced // S: Superior
   

Also this is in addition to a parser system. A parser system should be used to reference specific parts of a ship but a ship's attributes are used to describe it as well just like with npcs. There are times you use a parser tag and other times you create a condition that allows you to say if this happens... this or if that happens... that. This system is just the one i think will allow us to do this with all ships before they are made.


the classification system allows you to reference ships that aren't made yet that you don't know what their specific parser will return. I mean we could have a tag that says [shipQuality] that returns the words good, bad, great... but that doesn't allow for a lot of freedom in writing does it?


in short MT you could say this is the normal parser approach. Since we have tags that designate damage types and armor types. This is doing the same but for ships and adding a quality based system as well

 

[Fuzzybear]

You are standing in your private hangar at Tavros station;.  You look around and see your father's Casstech z-14.  around it are several other ships, either sitting on the deck, or floating in anchor.


{ship description/ name}A large pleasure-craft sits here, with plenty of room for 12 people and complete with built-in luxury suites, a hard-light holo-deck and a jacuzzi for your crew.   


{ship name, type} a Heavy Gunship, bristling with some serious firepower you've "liberated" from space pirates lies tethered here, Somehow, it manages to look intimidating just sitting there.


you can see Vahn giving orders to several of his subordinates, making sure your personal fleet is ready and waiting for you.


or something like that ?

 

[EmperorG]

I do approve of the idea that size and quality of the ship being two independent sets, I'd rather not have to use a Capital ship if I want NPC's to remark my ship doesn't look like crap/average/okay/etc.


Personally I'm just itching for some new ships to be in already.

 

[KZAR-92]

Well I think in the size area there should be a limit to how big a ship you can get.  Like you shouldn't be able to get something the size of a Star Destroyer from Star Wars because that would be too big and wouldn't make sense at all for Steele to have as well as such a ship couldn't land on a planet.

 

[Couch]

Well I think in the size area there should be a limit to how big a ship you can get.  Like you shouldn't be able to get something the size of a Star Destroyer from Star Wars because that would be too big and wouldn't make sense at all for Steele to have as well as such a ship couldn't land on a planet.

A large ship ought to come with shuttles to go planetside, it's just changing a blurb.

 

[KZAR-92]

A large ship ought to come with shuttles to go planetside, it's just changing a blurb.

Yeah I guess so but it feels like more work in the coding area. I just feel limiting the size would be best in the long run.

 

[Etis]

I think it will be easier if the staff is just android that will be controlled with ship's AI (Hand So maybe), and when there are followers who knowledgable to a certain area of the ships (cleaning, engineer, navigator, etc), the android will be replaced with the mentioned follower,,,

+1 to AI plus followers as crew. Thoigh it is a bit doubtful if we can really trust Hand So...

 

[lightningshifter]

I'm loving where this discussion is going. We really need some more spaceship content. I think it makes sense to bring in the standard classification system for vessels. Also, we could take inspiration from classic sources such as Star Wars and Star Trek for inspirations on both ends of the spectrum. Star Wars is much more generous with depicting smaller vessels than Star Trek though. Star Trek always did favor the large crew ships. Let's face it though, not everyone is going to have military grade  hardware. I like the commercial and private sector crafts that are prevalent in TiTS.  I will say that larger crafts would definitely come with little boarding and transfer shuttles to deal with those issues of venturing into space stations or going down to a planet. You wouldn't want to bring something that large down into a docked position too often. It would be a huge pain to take off again. Can you imagine all the things that would have to be put in place to make sure that a large vessel could safely dock and depart?


The TiTS universe seems to favor a lot of automated and AI based systems. I mean, take the Phoenix for example. That ship has a crew of 2. I'm counting the AI because she has personality. I think it's viable to have AI controlled systems. Admittedly it reminds me of Mass Effect a bit when we go to the really advanced AI.

 

[Etis]

About classification... Better keep it simple. Space ship is basically a hull with defined amount of slots of few types. Aside from minimal set (captain quarters, small 10 slot cargo bay, 1 passenger/follower slot) ship is configurable. Slots can be generic (basically inner space, can be used as cargo bays, living quarters for more follower slots or to place internal devices) and specialized (basically shield/weapon/engine mount points). Inner space is basically united, and module side is only limited by overall inner space. External mount point can have specific max size, so if you want serious main caliber you'll have to find military capital ship... Or maybe conversion module and freighter stripped down to fit it (and barely anything more) inside? System should be actually quite simple, just few conversion rules.

 

[Magic Ted]

Also this is in addition to a parser system. A parser system should be used to reference specific parts of a ship but a ship's attributes are used to describe it as well just like with npcs. There are times you use a parser tag and other times you create a condition that allows you to say if this happens... this or if that happens... that. This system is just the one i think will allow us to do this with all ships before they are made.


the classification system allows you to reference ships that aren't made yet that you don't know what their specific parser will return. I mean we could have a tag that says [shipQuality] that returns the words good, bad, great... but that doesn't allow for a lot of freedom in writing does it?


in short MT you could say this is the normal parser approach. Since we have tags that designate damage types and armor types. This is doing the same but for ships and adding a quality based system as well

The parser is a child of attributes, not the other way around. As such, it comes with the package. None the less it, uh, pretty much follows the same guidelines of a parser, if not dramatically easier as the index of objects in question would just need one tag and not a variety-list. So it can be plugged in just as easy as a new parser need. For instance, weapons could have tags like reach and stun within a "moments notice" (two hours of work) if there was ever a need for it and this has been mentioned before!


(Granted I think having the option there would lead to such content instead of waiting for the need but hey)

 

[Foxxling]

Well I think in the size area there should be a limit to how big a ship you can get.  Like you shouldn't be able to get something the size of a Star Destroyer from Star Wars because that would be too big and wouldn't make sense at all for Steele to have as well as such a ship couldn't land on a planet.

Well even a capitol ship would be too big to land on a planet. Ships beyond a certain size would need several things to avoid breaking immersion including generic nameless personnel (red shirts) as well as a shuttle (or several) that would allow the player to land on different worlds. Would I love the idea of having a moon sized space craft? No, too big, but infinite crew place and a special generic mob follower could be awesome.

The parser is a child of attributes, not the other way around. As such, it comes with the package. None the less it, uh, pretty much follows the same guidelines of a parser, if not dramatically easier as the index of objects in question would just need one tag and not a variety-list. So it can be plugged in just as easy as a new parser need. For instance, weapons could have tags like reach and stun within a "moments notice" (two hours of work) if there was ever a need for it and this has been mentioned before!


(Granted I think having the option there would lead to such content instead of waiting for the need but hey)

Um...  I feel like you have a point but you lost me somewhere in the second line

 

[JDeko]

No ship is too large in a sci-fi RPG. Moon-sized sounds just about right, if a bit modest in scale. 

 

[Etis]

Ships beyond a certain size would need several things to avoid breaking immersion including generic nameless personnel (red shirts)

Well, this problem can be solved by AI/VI.

 

[EmperorG]

No ship is too large in a sci-fi RPG. Moon-sized sounds just about right, if a bit modest in scale. 

Hopefully we don't get planet sized ones though, like a certain other sci-fi series.

 

[MESeele]

Hopefully we don't get planet sized ones though, like a certain other sci-fi series.

Shadow Raiders? :3

 

[Foxxling]

Well, this problem can be solved by AI/VI.

Well it can but we could also could use red shirts.


I personally wouldn't want to trust all of anything to either personel or a single AI, I'd much rather have a mixture of both

Hopefully we don't get planet sized ones though, like a certain other sci-fi series.

I mean... I personally wouldn't mind there being planet sized ships. I might not go through the quest/money saving in order to get it but having it in game wouldn't bother me

 

[KZAR-92]

I just feel Steele shouldn't be able to get Dreadnaught, Carrier, or Battleship class ships. The reasons why being Dreadnaughts are considerably overpowered and the UGC wouldn't likely just allow anyone to own what could be considered a super weapon of a ship. For Carriers it simply I think they'd be a coding nightmare as well as it not making sense for Steele to buy one plus Carriers don't do ship to ship style fighting. With Battleships I just feel like the UGC would have really strict rules on who can own them and who can't as a means to try and keep pirates from getting their hands on one easily.

 

[Foxxling]

I just feel Steele shouldn't be able to get Dreadnaught, Carrier, or Battleship class ships. The reasons why being Dreadnaughts are considerably overpowered and the UGC wouldn't likely just allow anyone to own what could be considered a super weapon of a ship. For Carriers it simply I think they'd be a coding nightmare as well as it not making sense for Steele to buy one plus Carriers don't do ship to ship style fighting. With Battleships I just feel like the UGC would have really strict rules on who can own them and who can't as a means to try and keep pirates from getting their hands on one easily.

Well they'd only be op if there aren't threats able to challenge them.


Carriers i feel would be similar to having a ship that's a tech (where you deploy ships instead of drones) but it would still have its own weaponry.


Now i also believe these ships should be end game ships and/or have special immersive quests attached to them so that you have to actually try to get them.

 

[Couch]

I just feel Steele shouldn't be able to get Dreadnaught, Carrier, or Battleship class ships. The reasons why being Dreadnaughts are considerably overpowered and the UGC wouldn't likely just allow anyone to own what could be considered a super weapon of a ship. For Carriers it simply I think they'd be a coding nightmare as well as it not making sense for Steele to buy one plus Carriers don't do ship to ship style fighting. With Battleships I just feel like the UGC would have really strict rules on who can own them and who can't as a means to try and keep pirates from getting their hands on one easily.

The ability to acquire capital ships was a stretch goal during the Offbeatr that was met.  Fen is semi-obligated to implement them at an appropriate point.

 

[EmperorG]

The ability to acquire capital ships was a stretch goal during the Offbeatr that was met.  Fen is semi-obligated to implement them at an appropriate point.

It was in fact the final stretch goal reached at 100k, the main reason for it is that it will also us to house everything we could ever want in it (In terms of companions, storage, etc). But with the fact we don't even have a ship other than the starting one I doubt we'll see said Capital ship before 2018.

 

[Savin]

It was in fact the final stretch goal reached at 100k, the main reason for it is that it will also us to house everything we could ever want in it (In terms of companions, storage, etc). But with the fact we don't even have a ship other than the starting one I doubt we'll see said Capital ship before 2018.

Yeah. Capships are definitely end-game stuff. 

 

[Gedan]

Yeah. Capships are definitely end-game stuff. 

http://thekiller8.deviantart.com/art/Eve-Online-You-want-it-28310268

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

I was pleasantly surprised when the link above didn't lead me to some KanCole/Arpeggio of Blue Steel style BS.


Additionally, won't it be too Terran-centric to make a terminology stemming from an Earth naval classification a universal system?

 

[Couch]

I was pleasantly surprised when the link above didn't lead me to some KanCole/Arpeggio of Blue Steel style BS.


Additionally, won't it be too Terran-centric to make a terminology stemming from an Earth naval classification a universal system?

This is a game made by humans for humans.  Providing a naval classification scheme that people are familiar with is a useful shorthand with no reason not to do it.

 

[MESeele]

I was pleasantly surprised when the link above didn't lead me to some KanCole/Arpeggio of Blue Steel style BS.


Additionally, won't it be too Terran-centric to make a terminology stemming from an Earth naval classification a universal system?

Like calling a rabbit a smeerp. It might sound foreign and mysterious or whatever you're going for, but it's also really likely to confuse and annoy people who don't want to memorize the meanings of all the new arbitrary words.