Quick question: How do beards work?

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Couch

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Here, corrected this for you. Most writers around here don't have an aversion to others touching their work as strong as yours, Mysty. So if someone were to approach one of them and ask for a permission to write a scene involving one of that author's characters, they would at least consider the possibility based on the nature of the scene and the quality of the writing.


And than there are all those poor abandonware characters...

I will actually be pissed if Balitz does what he specifically called out wanting to do, though.  I'm fine with someone adding more sex scenes to Ceria, as Fen has in the past, if they fit her characterization and don't contradict her existing scenes re: boundaries.


Adding talk scenes, on the other hand, implies a desire to influence the character's personality, and Balitz has already indicated he doesn't grok Ceria as she is.


Abandonware characters are in a different position by virtue of being abandoned, but expansions that significantly affect their character or content in a way outside the original author's intent are still kind of a dick move.
 

PyrateHyena

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Oct 13, 2015
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I'm gonna assume that you mean either MP or me, because Jacques' comments were, just like always, as far removed from any sort of "forum drama" as possible.


In which case, the amount of vitriol and emotionally charged responses might have gone just slightly past the point of completely civil discussion, but it's at least somewhat justified by balitz's surprising insistence on repeating their position without adding or qualifying anything, or addressing the opposing points in any meaningful way.

Guess I was a BIT overexaggerating, as always. I am sorry about that, if that means anything to you or IVIissy. Balitz is stubborn as hell here and that can get quite annoying, I agree on that. But I had the feeling that there was more hate than necessary.

Though the assertion that drama is my fetish might have cut a bit deeper than you intended. I don't like arguing... :eek:hdear:  

Now I feel bad... sorry again. Thoughtless as often. Was not directed at you but at the forum-community as a whole, of whom you were a representative. Also sorry for double-posting, but getting quotes directly into an edit is painful. I gotta learn more code.


EDIT: My "replies have been merged." Ein Hoch auf die Wissenschaft!
 
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PyrateHyena

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Nik_van_Rijn

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I will actually be pissed if Balitz does what he specifically called out wanting to do, though.  I'm fine with someone adding more sex scenes to Ceria, as Fen has in the past, if they fit her characterization and don't contradict her existing scenes re: boundaries.


Adding talk scenes, on the other hand, implies a desire to influence the character's personality, and Balitz has already indicated he doesn't grok Ceria as she is.


Abandonware characters are in a different position by virtue of being abandoned, but expansions that significantly affect their character or content in a way outside the original author's intent are still kind of a dick move.

Those are fair points, but I though that I covered them by mentioning authors making the decision based on the 'nature of the suggested content'. Probably should have worded it better.


However, I don't think that Balitz mentioned any details about what those scenes should be like, just that it'd be nice to have them accompany styling procedures; or that he stated any opinions on Ceria as a character, as opposed to her functionality as a part of the salon. The closet he came was denying that Ceria by herself can be enough of a reason for the player to repeatedly return to Sheer Beauty. But that seems to be a consistent position he holds about the value of NPC interactions when measured against the gameplay reasons to visit them.

Talk scenes are a whole different beast, though. Talk scenes mean expanding on an NPC's character. I mean, the vast majority of talk scenes in the game involve stuff like personal backstory, and they're universally characterized. Having someone else come in and write socialization scenes for someone else's character just isn't going to work unless the original author is involved to the point where they might as well write it themselves. In my case, the single instance of a "kind of" talk scene I attempted to write for another author's character made me realize just how much I'd prefer that they write it instead. 


Even from a completely amiable and well-meaning standpoint, writing someone else's character a very difficult thing to do.

I'm not saying that it's a likely thing to happen, just that, AFAIK, for other authors it's a possibility they are ready to consider on a case by case basis.


The talk scenes that lay out more of the character's backstory, are supposed to be extremely significant to their arc, or just further their characterization are obviously the least likely candidates to be approved without some major edits, if at all.


On the other hand some mostly utilitarian things like that newest Lieve scene, or the idle chatter that is there just to make PC feel more like a real person, or to simply be funny and amusing - that's far more likely to get approved.

As I've said before, my aversion to the idea is not because I think everyone else is "shit" or that I'm so narcissistic to think that my characters would be just too fucking good for someone else to "dirty" with their own work, even though that's probably how it comes off.

No one around here had any reason to ever seriously entertain this idea. You have, on multiple occasions, clearly stated what are the reasons behind the hang-ups you have regarding other people writing for your characters.

The truth is just that it's my character, and, because of that, I'm the only one that really knows what they're like. You know Aislinn's backstory, how laughably overboard I went with her. Do you really think anyone else would be able to write her with that kind of understanding? Because I factored it into pretty much every element of her, right down to the etymology of her name and the reason she gets off on Steele smacking her ass.


And yeah, that was probably way too much personal investment for me to put into a character for a porn game that I don't own or work on in an official capacity, but it's a lesson learned. And that's why I'm not writing any more in-depth characters after Ash, because that's the only way I can do it.

The difficulty that stems from the amount of details in a character's background and characterization, even the ones that aren't publicly available, can still be overcome if the end result is considered worthy by both parties.


So IMO, it certainly has more to do with the amount of personal investment a particular author has into a particular character.

I miss the old me.

That would require for you to lose that side of yourself, which certainly isn't the case.
 

PyrateHyena

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Oct 13, 2015
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I feel that my questions have been answered in a competent and comprehensible manner, so someone might as well close this thread. Any objections?
 

PyrateHyena

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balitz Method

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I get what you are saying but I think you are missing the point of the salon and why it was written. It is supposed to be a service center and shop that serves as an extension to character customization--it's not really about covering for a feature plot hole as you are assuming and to think that is to intentionally downplay the significance of it. When you play Saints Row and go into the in-game hair salon, it's to access a part of the character customization, not to cut unwanted hair that has grown over time.


Although I think it is perfectly fine to hand-wave the hair length in character creation, if hair customization were jammed into the character creation portion of a new game, then please write it and get it approved by the devs. Similarly, if you want hair growth features, please write it up or pay someone to write it up, then wait for the devs to critique and approve or reject it.

Right - that's what it -should- be and that's what I'd like to see it as. Just to be clear the main idea here is that the logic of how it's implemented, the array of options it currently has and how -they're- implemented, and its lack of setting specific sex scenes are what make it feel like a hotfix rather than a fully realized and justified hair salon.


The way it addresses hair growth is both expensive and not very robust; the only aspect with a bunch of options is coloring and those aren't all that detailed, either. Are we really going to say that, given that there are no options to have any length between buzz cut and shoulder-length, i.e. a zone where most men actually keep their hair, they should just pretend when we have options to make dicks exact lengths up to half-inches? If it's a service center the more specific it is and the more options it has the more likely people are going to want to experiment with it. Tweaking how hair growth works is one way to address that and currently hair growth works exclusively through the salon. If the salon is not going to change then hair growth would be one way to achieve fine-tuning and could be easily de-activated once it reaches a sweet spot.


One thing you brought up before: is it sexy? In a sex game that's one of the most important questions and currently the answer is no. CoC found a way to integrate scenes into the service and, while it was rough, it made the place a lot more interesting. Shops that use the setting of the store have much sexier interactions and if we're talking about reasons why this should be a hair salon and not just a character creation addon there's nothing to mention at the hair salon. If it were rebranded as an elf-fetish mod store nothing would be lost. If sex scenes were more integrated it would feel more like a service shop (like the massage parlor to use another CoC example) and one way to justify coming back to a service shop is to implement some need to return - something like hair growth. Not necessarily something mandatory (it should def. be easily toggleable) but something that makes sense. 


It doesn't need to be both of these things but if it's an extension of the character creator the options are limited and if it's supposed to be something sexy it's more like a place where a fetish character happens to be. That's actually a wider problem that a number of shops have but if we're limiting it to the scope of how hair of all types is handled the salon stands out specifically because it's supposed to be a service center, not another gene mod shop where the clerk is not just an employee but also a customer. If it's not going to be expanded then hair growth is just one way to fill in the gaps it leaves. 
 

balitz Method

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First off, at least a third of Fen game's playerbase has either the TF and/ orthe sex change fetish. For those people, the starting appearance of their character is quite often only important as a point to measure the their PC has undergone against. Some people even continue to try out new things and never settle on one particular look, imagine that.


Secondly, the current list of hair change options gives the player the ability to change every aspect of their hair that is guaranteed to be compatible with all of the current and potential hair types. Hell, styling is already inapplicable to more than half of the existing hair types.

This was specifically to address the first bit of poo-pooing (namely that it would just be annoying because people -wouldn't- want their appearance to be messed with once they get it right). So what I was saying was: if that's the case, why a hair salon? It could just be a character customization add-on and then no one would ever need to change it.


But then, if people -like- to change (and a significant number of people do) then hair growth is one way to change up your hair in ways that the salon doesn't address with its benchmark growth. And on that same note if people like to change then the salon should provide lots of options to change it. As you say a bunch of hair types don't even work with what it currently does. As a way to change up your hair there's a lot to be desired. That doesn't mean that this one place has to cover all of these; that's exactly why I'm saying that one argument for hair/beard growth is that it could both carry some of that weight and could actually be linked to hair type to make it feel like it's acknowledging every snowflake in the breeze.


but I think a lot of these things I'm saying are getting twisted together or pointed in the wrong direction just because it shifted into internet argument mode.

I will actually be pissed if Balitz does what he specifically called out wanting to do, though.  I'm fine with someone adding more sex scenes to Ceria, as Fen has in the past, if they fit her characterization and don't contradict her existing scenes re: boundaries.


Adding talk scenes, on the other hand, implies a desire to influence the character's personality, and Balitz has already indicated he doesn't grok Ceria as she is.


Abandonware characters are in a different position by virtue of being abandoned, but expansions that significantly affect their character or content in a way outside the original author's intent are still kind of a dick move.

Not writing talk scenes but integrating the ones that already exist into the service to make it feel like a service. Just a little detail like that can make a place like a hair salon more "real" and even give incentive for a character to return. Having to come back because your hair grows is one way to provide that but needing to get a haircut to flirt/talk with the waifu is another that makes the place feel less like something that's only there because growing hair was ridiculously complicated before.


Looking back I can see why you might have thought that I don't like the character but that's not what I was getting at. What I was pointing out was that she's entirely disconnected from the salon service; she's more like a pitchman for the elf transformatives slash rando fetish character who just-so-happens to be at the hair salon. One of my major points here is that service-oriented characters work best when the service is something that has some need or incentive for repeating it and when their characterization and sex interactions are rolled into that service. The salon feels janky and unfinished because it doesn't have either of those things. 


Just for extra-extra clarification I should probs. mention that, while I do write and publish my own work, I also worked as an editor for years so I'm used to zooming in on things like these, taking them apart, and presenting them to writers to show them why they're not done yet or why their idea still needs work (also in trying to patiently work through moodiness to go over why this doesn't make their work irredeemable shit, it just means that what's on the page isn't as well-conceived as what's in their head). This is not coming from a "let me step on all your toes" sort of place; that's just a really typical way for people who create these things to take it (at first). I've been on both sides and I know what it's like so don't think I'm being dismissive of the passion you have for your work - that goes out to Mysty especially.
 
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balitz Method

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It didn't go anywhere productive because you, specifically, went too far in your determination not to listen and ended up so far away from anything I actually said or meant that it turned into a ridiculous feelings-hurting argument despite my best efforts to steer it back.


but I think you're nothing if not aware that you're prone to that so I'm not getting upset or chastising you. If you don't want to talk about it anymore that's fine - I didn't ever consider this some internet fight and there are no hard feelings.


This was entirely about different ways to flesh out and fill gaps that exist in how hair and the salon itself works, not some fixation on hair growth. That was only ever meant to be one suggested way to do that; another was editing and/or expanding functionality of the salon in a way that would make it feel more like a service center. Since the game doesn't have much oversight the way things like that get addressed is to point them out.
 

Jacques00

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Aug 26, 2015
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Two different trains with different rails of thought managed to derail this topic train. Please stay on topic.


It seems the initial details have been answered. If you want to continue these discussions, please start a new thread.
 
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