Questions on the boundaries, protocols, and conditions of bug reporting

[XBoxMaster131]

Ok, this has been long overdue. First off, sorry if this isnt quite the right place to slap this in. I thought about putting it in bug reports but decided against it cuz i didnt want to clog up the feed. And trust me when i say that its likely gonna need as smooth a flow as possible soon enough...

(Cut up and slapped into spoilers for the sake of ease of reading)

Spoiler: First thing

I was told a long ass time ago that constantly clogging up the bug reports section with minute things every so often wasnt the best option. So i took the advice of one of the staff and created a google doc to slap my stuff into, and then throw the whole buggy brick through the window instead of plinking pebbles against it every so often.


Unfortunately, i am a master in the art of putting things off, and now the doc is literally over 110 pages long, with roughly 2 reports per page, the reason theyre so spread out is cuz my procedure for making reports is to highlight the issue, take a screenshot, and straight paste it down while adding a little blurb under it giving a brief explanation and at simes a suggestion for a fix.


So now we come to the question: what do i do? Should i chop it up into smaller docs and submit them bit by bit? Or should i just dump the whole thing into poor Jacques' lap?

Spoiler: Second thing

Regardless of the submission method, youll likely notice a certain... trend... amongst them. Namely that i state some kind of apology literally almost every other sentence. This is cuz i havent been too sure on exactly what the boundaries for bug reporting are, and also cuz im paranoid as hell that ill either annoy the bug team with little nitpicks and stuff or that ill cross some kind of line or whatever and come off as some kinda jerk or something.


So my next question is as follows: where do i draw the line? Are things that lean mlre towards constructive criticism allowed (this one is kinda hard to explain and this shit is long enough as is, so ill elaborate on this bit using some examples if needed. Just tell me if you want them)? How tiny of an issue can i report? What are the boundaries on more subjective things (again, can provide examples, just ask)? Are reports that lean more into the territory of suggestions acceptable (again, can give examples)? And how should i phraise my reports in general? Cuz again dont wanna come off as some kinda literature gestappo or whatever.

I know that i kinda already went through a bit of this song and dance before, and im sorry im kinda just repeating that here, and for not really doing anything aside from slapping my reports into a google doc to help streamline the process despite having been advised to. If you want me to ill adjust my reporting procedures accordingly from here on out, just tell me exactly how.

Im just kinda sick of tiptoeing around like im in a minefield to avoid saying the wrong thing in these things.

Anyway, thats everything. Please let me know your answers, O Providers of Fine Pornography!

 

[Paradox01]

My two cents:

So now we come to the question: what do i do? Should i chop it up into smaller docs and submit them bit by bit? Or should i just dump the whole thing into poor Jacques' lap?

Look through the existing bug report threads and make sure you're not about to submit something that's already been reported. Also, don't let reports pile up to where they're longer than a post-grad thesis.

As for the rest, I'm not on the dev team so I can only give advice as a former writer: no one likes having suggestions on how to "better" phrase something submitted by someone that isn't their boss.

"This sentence would probably read better like this, and the next paragraph might sound better rearranged that way...you know what, I went ahead and rewrote the whole thing for you."

Just keep it to typos like misspelled words or missing periods.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Look through the existing bug report threads and make sure you're not about to submit something that's already been reported. Also, don't let reports pile up to where they're longer than a post-grad thesis.

Im not sure if the first bit is an option, it would take absurdly long to do, and im not even sure how id be able to really go about it in an efficient way.

Plus if im being honest i really dont wanna do that. Sorry if im being a huge ass cuz of that.

As for the second bit, again, sorry if im being a jerk, but im honestly conflicted on it.....

Ill put the link to the doc. If you have a moment, maybe skim it a bit and tell me what you think of the way im conducting myself.

Cuz i do genuinely wanna help out with the game, but like i said before i dont wanna come off as Kid Death level perfectionist dick.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Heres the link.

Be warned its... well... youll see...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QgKB0ws84-7KDXRboo8h6Tjqy3PMctKJVVbul-5lnH4/edit?usp=drivesdk

 

[Paradox01]

Look through the existing bug report threads and make sure you're not about to submit something that's already been reported.

Im not sure if the first bit is an option, it would take absurdly long to do, and im not even sure how id be able to really go about it in an efficient way.

Plus if im being honest i really dont wanna do that.

So, you'd rather dump it on someone else?

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Typo's, missing words, broken grammar, borked parsers, bold and italic bleeds. That's as much help as the devs are looking for once you step out of actual bugs like softlocks, CTD's and error screens, items not working or scene choices not working correctly. You know, BUGS.

You want to do more than that? Yeah, you'll start to annoy them at that point.

Yeah... yeah you're right.....

Sorry. To you, @Paradox01 , and to all the writers who ive been nitpicking for.... christ over a year now....

I really was just trying to help out. I as ive said a billion times i didnt want to be a jerk.

But you know what they say about the road to hell...

 

[XBoxMaster131]

So, you'd rather dump it on someone else?

Sigh....

Again, youre right.... sorry....

Ill sort through em when i get around to it. Though god knows how long thatll take me.

Prolly another year, lol.

 

[Paradox01]

Sorry. To you, @Paradox01 , and to all the writers who ive been nitpicking for.... christ over a year now....

Well, thanks, but like I said, I'm not on the dev team. I think you misunderstood me when I said I'm a former writer. I am, just not for FenGames.

No one's faulting you for trying to help. It just seems like quite a bit of it's been unasked for help. Having said that, nothing's stopping you from offering the writers your help in editing their work. I used to write for a tabletop gaming company and one of my good friends, the Art Director, was my first stop in the editing process. He wasn't my Official First Stop for submitting my writing, he just helped me polish it before I actually turned it in. Maybe one or more of the writers would appreciate a little help from outside the box.

Then again, maybe none will.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

I don't think you're a jerk, but tbh, and i'm not trying to be an asshole here, but you've been a bit of an idiot...

Waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much work put into something no one asked for, aaaaand no one is going to use.

All you needed to do to see what the devs are looking for was look at the myriad bug reports already on the forum. You can quickly get an idea of how the system works just by looking at, like, 10 or so.

Yeah, i know. Tbh ive had a thread pinned into my phones clipboard for the entire year or so ive been doing this doc thing.

Im just a lazy and stubborn idiot.

Sorry.

Also, i just went back to one of my old thread chains ehere i spammed bugs, and i saw that fen answered to one of my more suggestion-y things. Prolly one of the first i made tbh.

It was just a simple "no".

This is prolly just me being a neurotic mess, but hooooooooly fuck that hit me hard.

Fen, if you see this by any chance, im sorry ive been such a fool. Ill be making changes to my protocols from now on.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Well, thanks, but like I said, I'm not on the dev team. I think you misunderstood me when I said I'm a former writer. I am, just not for FenGames.

No one's faulting you for trying to help. It just seems like quite a bit of it's been unasked for help. Having said that, nothing's stopping you from offering the writers your help in editing their work. I used to write for a tabletop gaming company and one of my good friends, the Art Director, was my first stop in the editing process. He wasn't my Official First Stop for submitting my writing, he just helped me polish it before I actually turned it in. Maybe one or more of the writers would appreciate a little help from outside the box.

Then again, maybe none will.

Thqnks man. Thqt seriously makes me feel a lot better about this whole thing. I know it may sound kinda dumb but i was legit seriously stressing about it all. Still am tbh, lol.

But how would i offer to edit their stuff? I mean, i honestly cant think of a way to do it without basically just saying "hey you want me, someone whos never made a professional writing project before, to judge your hard work like that critic guy from psychonaughts"?

 

[TheShepard256]

Libelous has a system for their CoC2 bug reports where they make a single thread for whatever version they're currently on, then add more typos as they find them until either a new patch is released or one of the devs say 'fixed' to the current batch. Example here. Maybe you could do something similar?

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Libelous has a system for their CoC2 bug reports where they make a single thread for whatever version they're currently on, then add more typos as they find them until either a new patch is released or one of the devs say 'fixed' to the current batch. Example here. Maybe you could do something similar?

Im not sure that would work for me.

I used to play almost every day, but now its much more sporadic. So it likely wouldnt look much different than my more recent bug thread submissions.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Also, i just realized another issue with asking writers if i can give their work a once over.

I want to enjoy the game in game. Its the same reason i rarely look at documents for wip stuff people write for the game. I wanna enjoy it the way it was meant to be enjoyed.

I know that might sound stupid, but... well, thats just how i do.

 

[Paradox01]

Also, i just realized another issue with asking writers if i can give their work a once over.

I want to enjoy the game in game. Its the same reason i rarely look at documents for wip stuff people write for the game. I wanna enjoy it the way it was meant to be enjoyed.

I know that might sound stupid, but... well, thats just how i do.

Perfectly understandable. Also perfectly reasonable to limit your help to bugs and basic typos. Read the game and experience it, don't crawl inside your own head and get wrapped around the axle over how you would have worded something differently.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Ugh, im really sorry, but im still feeling confliction about my more suggestion-y and nitpicky stuff. Like i said, im stubborn, though i suppose laziness may also be a facter, tbh....

Dammit, i feel like an ass.... i think i need more time to consider what to do with all of it....

In the meantime ill start up a new doc for anything i find moving forward.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Perfectly understandable. Also perfectly reasonable to limit your help to bugs and basic typos. Read the game and experience it, don't crawl inside your own head and get wrapped around the axle over how you would have worded something differently.

Lol, easier said than done for me. Knowing me, now that ive gotten into the habit of it itll be tough as hell for me to break it.

 

[Paradox01]

Do you do that for everything you read?

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Ok this admittedly is partially my lazy bone talking, but i am legit concerned about the logistics of sorting through my reports to try and find anything thats already been fixed.

How would i even go about it? Im not sure punching the bits in question into the search bar here on the forums is gonna work. God only knows how many results it may bring up.

I guess i could maybe just check the scenes un the newer versions and compare? That sounds like a good plan...

Anyone else have any ideas on how to go about this?

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Dude, you need to chill tf out. You're intent is to offer what many of us offer, another pair of eyes to catch small shit that slips through. It's not your job to micro-analyse ever single word in the game and present a 100 page report to your manager or risk getting fired. See a bug, report it in a thread, See a typo? Make a thread, see another typo in the same scene, reply to your own thread. That's it, that's all.

And ffs, if all this headache came from making a doc, why on earth is your solution to start a new one? Are you completely mental? Chill out dude, it's just a game.

Yeah, youre right. Ive... got a good amount of issues tbh.... personal crap, shit i dont wanna get into nor bother you with.

Long story short one of my biggest fears is pissing someone off or coming off as a jerk.

At this point saying sorry is practically a reflex for me, to the point where i legit had to stop myself from apologizing to ya in this reply.

But im trying to work on it, so fingers crossed it gets better soon.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

As for why i wanna make anew doc, i recal that before starting the first one id play the game, report like 5 things, stop for a week or so, thread would get locked, rinse, repeat. And i wanted to avoid that. Honestly it was so long ago i can barely remember.

But clearly ive just made an error thats on the other side of the coin.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Do me a favour, i'm familiar with your current mentality, i used to be in a similar mental mess. So what i want you to do is stop posting today, don't even reply to me. I want you to clear this website and the games from your head. Tomorrow i want you to think about how the pursuit of validation through being helpful is currently at odds with your ability to actually be helpful.

No one asked for your help, no one expects it of you, you're not letting anyone down by not persisting with it. I want you to sit on that for a day.

Two days from now, i want you, if you intend to renew your activity in the forum, to start with a single thing. One bug report and nothing else. Then just let that exist for a day. If you need anything else after that, PM me.

No, i dont think thats necessary. Cuz if there is one thing im good at, its hindsight.

I think i know what happened to me. It felt good to report bugs and be useful. So when i started seeing more subjective things, i guess i thought "hey, i can help here too!" I think maybe a desire to become more involved and contribute more to it, to be a part of something so massive and impressive as TiTS, may have also been a factor.

But then something happened. I think it was when the big man himself made a reply in one of my threads to stop putting disparate issues in the same thread. For instance, putting typos in the same thread actual legit bugs.

This was the same thread that gave me the idea to start the doc thing, too.

Anyway, i think that, and maybe some other factors, kinda put the fear of god in me. I think i may have also misinterpreted what fen said, too. And maybe some factors from the rest of my life started to bleed into it, idk. Regardless, i became paranoid, and.... well, you only have to read the doc to see what happened....

But im not gonna make any of those mistakes again.

No more reporting subjective or critical bs. Just the nitty gritty stuff like back in the good old days.

And no more doc bullshit either. Ill just make a new thread whan a new type of issue pops up, and if a problem arises ill deal with it then and there.

And.... thanks Malidica. And you too Paradox01. This has been an issue that has kinda kept me from enjoying TiTS to its fullest for a while now, and i can finally cuz all that crap out and get back on the horsecock!

The dark days are over, and the old me is back baby!

And note i didnt apologize in at all in any of that. I think im already making progress on that front, too!

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Wow this went from "how should i submit bug reports" to "impromptu therapy" real fast, lol.

I guess the element of surprise is the key to it for me.

Now all i can imagine is me going for a walk or whatever, thinking about something troubling me a bit, and my therapist jumping out of a garbage can asking "so how does that make you feel", lol

 

[Burnerbro]

Im not sure if the first bit is an option, it would take absurdly long to do, and im not even sure how id be able to really go about it in an efficient way.

The Fenforum's search functionality is solid and works quite well for something like that. It can be limited to searching just the subforum you are currently browsing, and checks the text of all the posts, not just titles (though it can be set to do just that). So if you run a couple of most relevant key words in both Fixed and Bug Reports, you will get a pretty good idea of what has already been reported and what hasn't.

If you have a pile of unreported stuff saved up, organising it by character/quest/location can help you breaking it into chunks for smoother reporting and with picking the relevant search words.

Typo's, missing words, broken grammar, borked parsers, bold and italic bleeds.

I would add legitimately confusing wording and broken scene structure/logic to this list of not code-related issues that one can safely report without much worries.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

I would add legitimately confusing wording and broken scene structure/logic to this list of not code-related issues that one can safely report without much worries.

Can you give an example?

Or better yet... if you dont mind and have the time, theres some instances like this in the doc. If youre willing, i can point some out to you and you can tell me if i was doing it correctly or not.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Continuing from my last....

Cuz a few of my more suggestion-y bits a do kinda wanna run by some people at the very least, just to know if what i was doing had any validity.

If any hold any water it would would certainly help me to recognize when it would be appropriate for me to make similar posts in the future. Not that thats what my focus is gonna be on, i mean. Er... ah forget it you guys know what im talking about!

 

[XBoxMaster131]

An example would be "he walking up to the door", all the words are correctly spelt, but it should clearly be 'walked'.

As for confusing, i just refer you to Bilbo's speech during his 111st birthday party: "i know half of you half as well as i should like and i like less than half of you half as well as you deserve". Now, you can figure out wtf he's saying there, but it's really hard the first time.

Ah, ok.

Ech, ngl, i was kinda on a bit of a relapse there, hoping some of my suggestion-y stuff may actually be valid.

This is gonna be harder than i thought.

But im gonna keep working on it moving forward.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

Hey guys, thanks again for all your help. Ill be sure to get around to sorting all the stuff in the doc eventually.

Till then, expect to see me back in the bug forums!

See ya later yall!

 

[Burnerbro]

An example would be "he walking up to the door", all the words are correctly spelt, but it should clearly be 'walked'.

That would be a plain old grammatical error, no? I don't think anyone would hesitate to report it, or feel like they are overstepping any kind of boundaries while doing so.

As for confusing, i just refer you to Bilbo's speech during his 111st birthday party: "i know half of you half as well as i should and i like less than half of you half as well as you deserve". Now, you can figure out wtf he's saying there, but it's really hard the first time.

This is much more in-line with what I had in mind. For a more typical example relevant to TiTS, imagine something with more 'run-on' sentence structure, or with a mix up of subjects and objects in a flurry of verbs.

Though it is always worth keeping in mind that having a character or even the narration ramble can be a deliberate choice by the author; same as with setting up a description that is especially densely packed with metaphors and similes and hard to parse as a result.

Hey guys, thanks again for all your help. Ill be sure to get around to sorting all the stuff in the doc eventually.

Till then, expect to see me back in the bug forums!

See ya later yall!

Best of luck with wrangling your mind goblins, man. Those little buggers ain't shit!

See ya around.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

imagine something with more 'run-on' sentence structure, or with a mix up of subjects and objects in a flurry of verbs

Can you give any examples? I just wanna know exactly what to be looking for.

 

[Paradox01]

Can you give any examples? I just wanna know exactly what to be looking for.

You know, no offense XBM, I want to help I really do, but at this point it feels like you're asking us to quantify exactly "how annoying is too annoying?" Here's a tip; if you have to ask yourself if the report you want to submit is nit-picking, odds are, it's nit-picking.