Old Level 9-12 Design Document & Discussion

[Theron]

Recently, I came across an old thread with a link to a design document for levels 9-12. Since levels 11 and 12 are coming soon*, I thought it might be a good idea to bring it up again for comments. A lot has changed since 2017.
*After the JavaScript port, apparently. I'm guessing late this year (unlikely) or early next year (more likely). Hopefully not late next year.

My comments:

Spoiler: Level 11

Spoiler: Mercenary

Helldiver: OK, I guess. I'd have to go through and see how many enemies do Thermal damage. Of course, it's not about how many enemies do Thermal as will do Thermal. Level 11 is Uveto+. Come to think of it, what is Thermal? Burning? Freezing? Burning || Freezing?

Sturm und Drang: The phrasing suggests it benefits from Second Attack. May actually be better with a Stunning weapon, since you can guarantee the enemy was Stunned when you attacked.

Overhead Blow/Stunning Power: These seem to be candidates for the other choice. Both of them have a Stun chance. I'd prefer Stunning Power because a separate attack would devalue Power Strike compared to Rapid Fire, which benefits from everything. Also, Mercenaries already have a Stun attack, Headbutt. Giving another seems unnecessary, especially since Power Strike is 5 points cheaper and does more damage. Note: Power Strike can't get Stuns from Stun Chance weapons, but Rapid Fire can.

Is it just me, or is there nothing for Ranged on this level? Additionally, if Sturm und Drang involves a melee attack, you may as well have gone ahead and gotten to 40+ Physique, making Bigger Guns less attractive. Reaching 40+ will only become easier with a higher stat cap. Bigger Guns could probably use an additional benefit. Negate Evasion penalties from weapons, maybe?

Spoiler: Power Armor tangent

I'd suggest Power Armor negate all other Evasion penalties (since all Power Armor weapons have an Evasion penalty). Right now, using Power Armor weapons with Power Armor just increases the damage you take, possibly overcoming the high defenses. You're best off using the Rouser to deflect bullets (and lasers).

Spoiler: Smuggler

Die Another Day: A free Blind for Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot might be enough to save you, if you're near the end of the fight (and the enemy isn't Immune), otherwise a free Stealth Field Generator would probably be more useful. If you're below 33% Health, I hope you've got high Evasion and the enemy isn't using attacks that ignore it.

Twist the Knife: Might actually make Burn Chance worth something. Oh, who am I kidding, Stun Chance is still better. You get full Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot damage + Bleed and it lasts just as long. Frankly, I'd make Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot trigger on the full range of listed conditions. Maybe throw Trip on the list, since that's a thing that PCs can do now. Actually, if it works on Sunder, that may make the Shoulder Grunch the Smuggler's best friend if you didn't take Can Opener and can afford to give up Light Jetpack.

Scoundrel's Flair: Extra Sexiness in the new Lust system is likely good for Tease builds, but only if you didn't take Ice Cold.

Spoiler: Tech Specialist

Shock Absorbers: You don't want to get hit in the HPs as a Tech Specialist, so this isn't all that useful. And I don't think there are currently any attacks that bypass Shields that are Electric. Physical and Burning, but not Electric.

Sentry Defense: Depends on how much damage it does and how much durability it has. Does it's damage scale? I assume it does, with the note about Drone Control. For that matter, do it's defenses (HP/Shields) scale? If not, it's effective damage gets reduced twice (level based defense + scaling HP) and/or it becomes more easily destroyed at higher levels. If neither, it becomes obsolete even faster (damage gets less effective, stays active for less time).

Shield Bubble: How many fights would this be useful? Currently, even those that it would, you're highly unlikely to be level 11 yet. Worse, it's mutually exclusive with the ally-generating Sentry Defense. It's probably better saved for level 13 so you can have it with Sentry Defense, making SD scale better and it can be useful outside the rare combats where you have an NPC ally. Or make it the base perk for level 11. Maybe swap with Shock Absorbers and make the bonus also affect Shields?

Spoiler: Level 12

At level 8, Second Wind became better than Burst of Energy (66.5 Energy + 80 HP vs 60 Energy), now it's superior to Smuggled Stimulant (75 E + 120 HP vs 75 over 3 rounds). Upgrading Smuggler and Tech Specialist Energy recovery probably wouldn't be out of line. Maybe Burst of Energy/Smuggled Stimulant can give bonus Evasion while active?

Getting Second Shot or Second Attack if you missed it earlier isn't bad, if you have the stats for it.
Not needing a Bonus Hit Rate weapon for your additional attacks is potentially useful, since you can then use weapons with better base damage/can Crit/Stun/Trip.

Spoiler: Energy Management

Right now, Tech Specialist has the most abilities to spend Energy on, but the worst recovery. Granted, Shield Hack/Charge Shield aren't that useful, and I rarely find myself using Gravidic Disruptor/Thermal Disruptor either. If Melee, they don't have to worry about Energy because they only spend 15 Energy for a buff that lasts the whole fight. If Ranged, their extra damage is dependent on expending 20 Energy/round. Yes, it has a possible Stun effect, but you break even with only 2 rounds of Overcharge. More than that, and you need to Power Surge/Deflector Regeneration in trivial combats afterward. I admit to not having played a Ranged Tech, so maybe it's better than I think.

Smugglers are dependent on landing Flash Grenades/Low Blow (without a Stun weapon), but Flash Grenade is 10 Energy, Low Blow is 15, and they have better Energy recovery (at level 7, before then they're kind of screwed).

Spoiler: Active Ability Count

Active Ability Count
Mercenary
1. Headbutt
2. Power Strike/Rapid Fire
3. Take Cover (Optional)
4. Carpet Grenades/Detonation Charge
5. Sturm Und Drang/Overhand Blow

Smuggler
1. Flash Grenade
2. Low Blow (Optional)
3. Stealth Field Generator/Disarming Shot
4. Gas Grenade/Grenade
5. Mag Binders

Tech Specialist
1. Paralyzing Shock
2. Overcharge/Charge Weapon
3. Static Burst
4. Gravidic Disruptor/Thermal Disruptor
5. Charge Shield/Shield Hack
6. Sentry Defense (Optional)

Any thoughts on the proposed perks for levels 11-12? On balance in general?

 

[null_blank]

Spoiler: MERC

Ranged Merc: I don't understand why level 11 Merc perks are all melee-oriented.
With that said, it's probably better to not view Sturn and Drang as melee-oriented and more like a stun attack that deals damage with a chance to deal bonus damage. Depending on how much energy this costs it might actually be worth it.
Melee Merc: ...MELEE MERC SHOULD HAVE HAD A COMBINED ATTACK/STUN WAY BEFORE THIS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Spoiler: SMUGS

IMO Smugglers need additional Energy cost reduction on Flashbangs as levels progress, some times I'll just waste all my energy just to get off a single Blind/Stun. When the smuggler's big hits are gated behind putting a status on the enemy it's a real pain having to spam flash bang and not have it proc over and over

Spoiler: TECHS

Shield tech: KING OF TANKS, DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH DEF BUFFS?
Drone tech: KING OF DRONES, DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH DRONES?

 

[Fullgames]

Overcharge is an almost useless ability, you deal the same damage you has a normal ranged attack with second shot with a minimal chance to stun and using quite a lot of energy. If you really want the stun, you are better off using paralyzing shock than overcharge.

 

[Jorr The Great]

To fix the energy consumption of the tech specialist, what if the sentry turret works in 2 ways? first with electrical damage to the enemy shield that absorbs energy from it, (since electrical damage is generally good against shields) at least you could recover the energy used in the turret and as a personal request to change the type of damage to one is not energetic when there are no shields, the enemies usually have quite a lot of electrical resistance in the armor and the drone maintains that damage label.

Also the bubble shield could absorb energy with the impacts it receives, like some kind of energetic recycling perhaps? more energy from energetic weapons than from kinetic weapons, maybe maybe, that while the shield is active you spend less energy with abilities, for example that the overload shot when passing through the shield maintains energy that would be wasted?

And if the above is put in the turret too? like, while the turret is active your next ability will work to empower the turret in exchange for less energy consumption, like using overload and instead of making an empowered shot increase the turret damage by 150%, thermal disruptor changes the damage to thermal damage and decrease armor, shield hack more damage to shields and block part of the enemy's shield regeneration, idk, it would be a good thing in long battles, of course, with permanent upgrade per battle

That's my very invasive opinion, for the other classes I cannot suggest anything, I have never played them.

 

[Jorr The Great]

Overcharge is an almost useless ability, you deal the same damage you has a normal ranged attack with second shot with a minimal chance to stun and using quite a lot of energy. If you really want the stun, you are better off using paralyzing shock than overcharge.

I support your comment, Fight Smarter makes it difficult to miss the second shot of Second Attack, considering that you can crit with both, you better use paralyzing shock first and then a normal shot.

 

[Baggrin]

Overcharge is an almost useless ability, you deal the same damage you has a normal ranged attack with second shot with a minimal chance to stun.

This ability is not so bad. With a sufficiently high intelligence, stunning seems to be almost never fail. And it allows you to inflict increased damage from those weapons with which a double shot does not work. And somewhere in the patch notes, as far as I remember, there was a mention that the double shot perk gives an increase to the damage of this ability. In fact, this is one of only two methods I have discovered to easily defeat these vile Bothrioc Quadomme. Apart from the laser weapon + Overcharge, only Paralyzing Shock + Gravidic Disruptor was really effective. As for Thermal Disruptor, despite the Bothrioc Quadomme's fire vulnerability and higher base damage, the result was ridiculous. However, my last experience of playing as a techno specialist shooter and collisions with them was about version 0.7.143 (praise the DrunkZombie!) Or so, since then I have not encountered them, and in general I prefer not to touch these abominations even with a twenty-foot pole ...

The problem with this ability is not that it is bad, but that in almost all cases the alternative perk is much more powerful and convenient, leaving Overcharge a solution for those exceptional cases when electrical damage / melee / active enemy are too problematic (almost none for the current moment). The effectiveness of this ability could be increased by new opponents worthy of its use ... or by removing the mutual exclusion of the imposed conditions. I'm talking about the fact that the special effect of the weapon itself does not work in the enhanced / multi-shot mode, that is, we cannot say that the fire suppression system can simultaneously stun and freeze. However, changing the formula for checking the success of the status effect can also help. After all, nothing frustrates or instills hatred for the game / class / ability, as four failures in a row when used against an equal level enemy (that is, knowingly equal or worse core characteristics). What, that would be too strong? I do not think so. What is the point in such abilities if they act only on those nonentities that are calmly defeated by ordinary attacks ?!

 

[TheShepard256]

One of the comments on the doc suggested that Shock Absorbers apply to Shields rather than HP. The thing is, Tech Specialists already have Enhanced Dampeners, which halves damage vulnerabilities for their equipped shield belt, and most of the time that means they get an effective increase in Electric resistance of 25% or 27.5%, which is more than the 15% provided by Shock Absorbers.
If Shock Absorbers applied to Shields stacks before Enhanced Dampeners, that means it's only half as useful for all shields except the Ozone Aegis (which has been significantly outclassed by this point), so to be fair (and to avoid complaints of inaccuracy) it'll have to stack after Enhanced Dampeners; that means Tech Specialists will usually have a 10% or 12.5% vulnerability to Electric damage to their Shields. This means that the two perks combine to give an effective 75-80% (depending on the shield's base resistance) reduction in Electric vulnerability to their Shields.

I have an alternative idea that might still work with the Shock Absorbers name: While you still have Shields, all damage done to your Health is reduced by x%. This makes shield-ignoring attacks less devastating to Tech Specialists. If that's too situational, perhaps it could instead be: Any attacks that breach your Shields, whether by ignoring them or reducing them to 0, deal x% less damage to your Health. This would still have the same effect against shield-ignoring attacks, but would also be useful for if an attack manages to breach your Shields.

 

[Theron]

Spoiler: MERC

Ranged Merc: I don't understand why level 11 Merc perks are all melee-oriented.
With that said, it's probably better to not view Sturn and Drang as melee-oriented and more like a stun attack that deals damage with a chance to deal bonus damage. Depending on how much energy this costs it might actually be worth it.
Melee Merc: ...MELEE MERC SHOULD HAVE HAD A COMBINED ATTACK/STUN WAY BEFORE THIS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Spoiler: SMUGS

IMO Smugglers need additional Energy cost reduction on Flashbangs as levels progress, some times I'll just waste all my energy just to get off a single Blind/Stun. When the smuggler's big hits are gated behind putting a status on the enemy it's a real pain having to spam flash bang and not have it proc over and over

Spoiler: TECHS

Shield tech: KING OF TANKS, DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH DEF BUFFS?
Drone tech: KING OF DRONES, DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH DRONES?

MERC: Isn't that what Headbutt is? Except Headbutt is 5 energy more and does less damage.
SMUGS: There's a reason I recommend Smugglers use Stun weapons. Base damage is typically low, but most of your damage is from Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot anyway. Additionally, it feels like they've made Stun Chance more reliable at high stat (and less at low). I can't look at the code to be sure, but it sure seems that way. I've been hoping for a perk that increases the length of status effects inflicted by the Smuggler. Even one bonus round would be a big deal.
TECHS: Shield Bubble does nothing to increase Shield Tech durability (or Drone Tech, for that matter). They are really tanky already, though. The chance to Stagger from Sentry Defense might actually be more useful for Shield Techs because it increases the chance of landing Paralyzing Shock or Overcharge Stun.

I support your comment, Fight Smarter makes it difficult to miss the second shot of Second Attack, considering that you can crit with both, you better use paralyzing shock first and then a normal shot.

If I'm reading the code right, Accuracy does not increase the chance of hitting with bonus attacks like Second Shot.

 

[null_blank]

MERC: Isn't that what Headbutt is? Except Headbutt is 5 energy more and does less damage.

Isn't Headbutt PHY based though? It would be nicer to have a stun for ranged mercs based on AIM.

SMUGS: There's a reason I recommend Smugglers use Stun weapons. Base damage is typically low, but most of your damage is from Sneak Attack/Aimed Shot anyway. Additionally, it feels like they've made Stun Chance more reliable at high stat (and less at low). I can't look at the code to be sure, but it sure seems that way. I've been hoping for a perk that increases the length of status effects inflicted by the Smuggler. Even one bonus round would be a big deal.

It would be nice to not be locked into using only weapons with Stun chance. Edit: also this locks out ranged weapons as few exist with native stun chance.

 

[Theron]

Isn't Headbutt PHY based though? It would be nicer to have a stun for ranged mercs based on AIM.

Ah, I mistook your meaning. I was looking at Overhand Blow/Stunning Power. You might note Sturm und Drang is an "inaccurate ranged attack with a chance to Stun". Neither option is very satisfying: Overhand Blow likely obsoletes Headbutt and devalues Power Strike, Stunning Power obsoletes Headbutt, Sturm und Drang incentivizes raising Physique even more, obsoleting Bigger Guns.

It would be nice to not be locked into using only weapons with Stun chance.

Especially for Ranged, since there's only two ranged Stun weapons, one of which can't be fired multiple times by anyone but Mercs. But Ranged Stun on a decent weapon would be ridiculously overpowered with Rapid Fire.