Old Country Question
- Thread starter Exrav
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it's on the codex actually
Roughly 15% of the population are kitsune, who are represented in all social classes of peoples, high and low. Due to their need to periodically drain life-force from other sapient peoples, they have never allowed themselves to grow past a comfortable proportion of the population.
Another 35-40% of the population are tanuki, who form much of what middle and lower middle classes there is to be had. Some proportion of the peasantry is also derived from this race.
The remainder of the population is a mishmash of other sapient races and foreigners, mostly lower class and menial workers.
Roughly 15% of the population are kitsune, who are represented in all social classes of peoples, high and low. Due to their need to periodically drain life-force from other sapient peoples, they have never allowed themselves to grow past a comfortable proportion of the population.
Another 35-40% of the population are tanuki, who form much of what middle and lower middle classes there is to be had. Some proportion of the peasantry is also derived from this race.
The remainder of the population is a mishmash of other sapient races and foreigners, mostly lower class and menial workers.
Oni, Nekomata, Kamaitaichi and Tengu are examples of some other sapient peoples confirmed to be around through in-game snippets and item descriptions.
The races are roughly analogous to social classes of the historical eras rather than actual racial divides.
The races are roughly analogous to social classes of the historical eras rather than actual racial divides.
though I want to use this chance to ask more about the 12 great kitsune families and the imperial one, like what is their clan names and honestly any info that can be distributed about them
What's there on the wiki is what's there to be had. In brief:
*The Emperor and the imperial family are patrilineally descended from Keros and his wife. The twelve are matrilineally descended from his twelve concubines. All the territories of not-Nihon, with the exception of the colonies, fall under control of one of the twelve. The twelve Den Mothers ring the Emperor in his court and between them head the ministries of the left and right.
*The names are derived from major clans in the eras of Japanese history I'm drawing from. You've already seen the Otomo and Fujiwara in-game. Rindo may or may not be a Minamoto bastard, I don't know.
*Analogous to real-world history, just prior to the rise of the shogunate and the bakfuku government, the Fujiwara managed to seize control of almost all of the court. The resulting civil war between the Imperial forces and the Minamoto led to roughly six centuries of the shogunate.
*Owing to the Godswar and Keros' return, the shogunate was abolished in the Celestial Restoration and the Emperor seized all the powers that had been lost to the shogunate with his divine ancestor backing him up. The twelve families, which heretofore had been in constant struggle to have the Emperor declare one of their number the next shogun, were brought back into balance -- theoretically. A period of reform analogous to the Meiji Restoration began, helped along by a metaphorical big stick carried around by not-Cegorach because he almost lost his entire fucking power base to those Lumians and their gunboat diplomacy, damn it.
*The Emperor and the imperial family are patrilineally descended from Keros and his wife. The twelve are matrilineally descended from his twelve concubines. All the territories of not-Nihon, with the exception of the colonies, fall under control of one of the twelve. The twelve Den Mothers ring the Emperor in his court and between them head the ministries of the left and right.
*The names are derived from major clans in the eras of Japanese history I'm drawing from. You've already seen the Otomo and Fujiwara in-game. Rindo may or may not be a Minamoto bastard, I don't know.
*Analogous to real-world history, just prior to the rise of the shogunate and the bakfuku government, the Fujiwara managed to seize control of almost all of the court. The resulting civil war between the Imperial forces and the Minamoto led to roughly six centuries of the shogunate.
*Owing to the Godswar and Keros' return, the shogunate was abolished in the Celestial Restoration and the Emperor seized all the powers that had been lost to the shogunate with his divine ancestor backing him up. The twelve families, which heretofore had been in constant struggle to have the Emperor declare one of their number the next shogun, were brought back into balance -- theoretically. A period of reform analogous to the Meiji Restoration began, helped along by a metaphorical big stick carried around by not-Cegorach because he almost lost his entire fucking power base to those Lumians and their gunboat diplomacy, damn it.
Was it actually gunboat diplomacy or did you just use the name of the real world thing? Did the Belharans have cannons? I did find it odd to read 'gunboat' when Komari talks about it, cause i didn't think the Belly's had that sort of tech before the collapse of the empire. Weren't they only at iron-age level tech at best?
Well, the Belharans might have solved the riddle of steel. There's some small evidence that we've managed to produce steel at least 2500 years ago. But pre-industrial steel making was crude, difficult, and only made very small amounts of actual steel at a time. So if they had it around, it would've been saved for really good warriors or important individuals.
It was arbalests, but gunboat diplomacy is the term. There's no need to be so literal about everything.
True, i do agree with the idea, it's the term you used, see, you had Komari say it, which means she knows the word, so she'd have to know what a gun was and have known it to be on a boat for the term to be in her vocabulary. If you left it in the narration then you're right, it wouldn't matter, at worst you could say it might break immersion, but since Komari actually uses the term, there ought to be an actual gunboat in existence for her to be aware of to use the word in a sentence.
In the future, there might be something called a rainbow engine, but how would i know that? To then use it in a sentence? It'd be weird. How does Komari know wtf a gunboat is?
In the future, there might be something called a rainbow engine, but how would i know that? To then use it in a sentence? It'd be weird. How does Komari know wtf a gunboat is?
See, now you're just getting pedantic here. Numerous people call for others to "steel themselves" throughout the game, yet steel smelting and items made of steel are largely lost at this point save for two currently extent artifacts, one of which is otherworldly, being Kasyrra's axe. It's a completely moot point when we account for the fact that almost everything that people say in the game is translated from Belharan to English for the player's convenience. I'm sure a more appropriate term would be used in the exact Belharan that they're using, but trying to draw conclusions from the wording being used is silly given that understanding.
Consider it the equivalent of an abstraction of the Animus or something.
Consider it the equivalent of an abstraction of the Animus or something.
No, i'll consider it for what it is, a real world term used out of place as a shortcut for an explanation you cbf'd to add to the game for the sake of in-universe consistency. Unlike Steel, which although extremely rare, has and does exist and so could enter common vocabulary, a gunboat has never existed.
Don't get me wrong, you don't have to write anything for this game, i'm not demanding anything of you, i'm just also not buying the jury-rigged justification for a clear inconsistency.
Don't get me wrong, you don't have to write anything for this game, i'm not demanding anything of you, i'm just also not buying the jury-rigged justification for a clear inconsistency.
So i should base my opinions on whether or not Malpha cares? Please, you don't speak for anyone but yourself, so it's not like you yourself have added anything. Tobs has been active since my post so he's no doubt seen it and decided not to reply, and i wasn't looking to harp on about it any further anyway, so your comment is even less than nothing if your goal was to have this argument end and vanish into the forum archive. Your post is the definition of counter productive.
Everybody's got to throw their three cents worth in.
On the topic of Steel though since it was brought up, and my apologies for hijacking the thread Exrav: I'm aware that Frost Marches - and presumably much of what was Belharan - have been thrown back into late-stage Bronze Age thanks to the collapse. That said, Steel items do exist as has been observed; the secret existed, it's just been lost on any meaningful scale. That being said, will it be possible to acquire steel-grade weapons and armour as time goes on?
Call me biased, but I've always been fond of the european knight aesthetic, of various time periods. I love me some steel plate.
On the topic of Steel though since it was brought up, and my apologies for hijacking the thread Exrav: I'm aware that Frost Marches - and presumably much of what was Belharan - have been thrown back into late-stage Bronze Age thanks to the collapse. That said, Steel items do exist as has been observed; the secret existed, it's just been lost on any meaningful scale. That being said, will it be possible to acquire steel-grade weapons and armour as time goes on?
Call me biased, but I've always been fond of the european knight aesthetic, of various time periods. I love me some steel plate.
I think that "gunboat diplomacy" is one of the few terms that would actually allow players to understand the point Tobs is trying to make. Referring to, say, "black ships" might be a little too obscure. Something like "tesserakonter diplomacy" would feel both anachronistic and forced.
The things Tobs has to say about the real world through the lens of the game are not always subtle, but they are still out of the reference frame of many of the game's players...which is why he's graciously spent so much time on the forums explaining things to people. I prefer terms that make it easier for players to understand complex themes and ideas rather than terms with a veneer of lore that can obscure understanding, and I personally don't mind that he used this one. And, honestly, anything that brings people into a place where they feel interested in learning more about postcolonial interpretations of Meiji is a Good Thing.
It's not as though there aren't plenty of other things about the language and vocabulary in the game that are anachronistic. There are, from "Sultana" (Mahmud of Ghazni fell into a dimensional portal and became a catboy?) to "basketball" (Belharans discovered vulcanization?). Language is the way it is here to help the players.
The things Tobs has to say about the real world through the lens of the game are not always subtle, but they are still out of the reference frame of many of the game's players...which is why he's graciously spent so much time on the forums explaining things to people. I prefer terms that make it easier for players to understand complex themes and ideas rather than terms with a veneer of lore that can obscure understanding, and I personally don't mind that he used this one. And, honestly, anything that brings people into a place where they feel interested in learning more about postcolonial interpretations of Meiji is a Good Thing.
It's not as though there aren't plenty of other things about the language and vocabulary in the game that are anachronistic. There are, from "Sultana" (Mahmud of Ghazni fell into a dimensional portal and became a catboy?) to "basketball" (Belharans discovered vulcanization?). Language is the way it is here to help the players.
So a couple of things to consider with the setting and real world terms. It doesn't matter. You're writing a game and trying to get across an idea as best you can and as quickly as you can. Sometimes ten words fits better than one hundred. And sometimes its just easier to use a real world term in a fantasy setting because its something that is immediately understood.
If we have to justify the use of the term "gunboat" (not that there should be, its the writer's prerogative to decide what they use), we have three ideas that can easily work and keep in line with the Bronze Age setting of CoC2.
1 - Ballistas and Onagers, or as we call them nowadays - bolt throwers. Precursors to cannons in that not only could they fire bolts, but also spherical stones. Perfect for facing off against masses of troops or besieging a fortification. Mount them on a ship and you have something that can besiege the enemy from the siege. Or if the enemy is using something like a trireme, a bolt could be devastating against the rowers.
2 - Catapults, mangonels and depending on the time period, trebuchets. Some advantages over the ballistas is that you can throw more things further, ranging from larger stones, pots of Greek Fire, dead cattle...although if you're on a ship, you could replace that with rotting sharks, chunks of festering whale blubber and so on.
3 - Mages. CoC2 is a setting that has magic. You could easily imagine a number of mages serving as a battery of arcane firepower.
Bear in mind as well, that the world of Savarra is still recovering 200 plus years after the Godswar, the Belharan Empire is just a shadow of its former self, not to mention that a great deal of knowledge has been lost, both to the Godswar and the collapse of the Belharan Empire. And that could have meant cannons and the like.
If we have to justify the use of the term "gunboat" (not that there should be, its the writer's prerogative to decide what they use), we have three ideas that can easily work and keep in line with the Bronze Age setting of CoC2.
1 - Ballistas and Onagers, or as we call them nowadays - bolt throwers. Precursors to cannons in that not only could they fire bolts, but also spherical stones. Perfect for facing off against masses of troops or besieging a fortification. Mount them on a ship and you have something that can besiege the enemy from the siege. Or if the enemy is using something like a trireme, a bolt could be devastating against the rowers.
2 - Catapults, mangonels and depending on the time period, trebuchets. Some advantages over the ballistas is that you can throw more things further, ranging from larger stones, pots of Greek Fire, dead cattle...although if you're on a ship, you could replace that with rotting sharks, chunks of festering whale blubber and so on.
3 - Mages. CoC2 is a setting that has magic. You could easily imagine a number of mages serving as a battery of arcane firepower.
Bear in mind as well, that the world of Savarra is still recovering 200 plus years after the Godswar, the Belharan Empire is just a shadow of its former self, not to mention that a great deal of knowledge has been lost, both to the Godswar and the collapse of the Belharan Empire. And that could have meant cannons and the like.
The boss has said no.
"Shooting" bows and ordering archers to "fire" are very, very common in fantasy of all stripes.
Gunpowder is not a thing, and was not a thing. There is a very important lore reason as to why the world's (magi)technological progress since then has been suspiciously slow since the end of the Godswar, which we'll explore in Tychris.
Gunboat diplomacy would work well for a silly mode version but i don't buy that an in-universe explanation would require a mountain of explanation either, something as simple as the belly's setting up a naval blockade to force the old country to open its ports to trade is at most a sentence or two to convey the exact same concept as gunboat diplomacy and wouldn't come across as awkward anachronistic speech. But yes, no one can or should force a writer to change things for their personal preference. I'm not demanding a change, just suggesting it, and questioning the logic behind the decision, a bit bluntly, yes, but Tobs called me a pedant and if anyone has a problem with me rejecting that notion then tough, i didn't like it and i don't have to.
Gonboat Diplomacy doesn't have to involve powder weapons, the Belharan ships could have Ballistae and Scorpions mounted on the decks and that'd be close enough without breaking the rules of existing world-building.
Yes it does, ugh, the problem is the term 'gunboat', a gunboat has guns, guns don't exist in Savarra, so wtf is a gunboat to them? A word that has no meaning. Might as well call it a nuclear powered submarine for all the Kitsune would know of such terms. No cannons, no gunboats. What you're describing has other names in many different cultures. God, why is this so hard to understand? I mean, fuck, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat I'm at my wits end on this subject, you can disagree on the level of relevancy in using real world terms to describe things in-game for the sake of clarity, that's one debate, but don't go treating the very real-world terms as not having specific definitions. A gunboat is a gunboat, not a trireme.
The same thing as when they "steel" themselves. Or when you yell "fire!" to an archer. It's a turn of phrase.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that the Belharans used literal gunboats, only that the term "gunboat diplomacy" is the correct usage even in the context of the game. The definition from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy is:
"In international politics, gunboat diplomacy (or Big Stick ideology in U.S. history) refers to the pursuit of foreign policy objectives with the aid of conspicuous displays of naval power, implying or constituting a direct threat of warfare should terms not be agreeable to the superior force."
When talking about "gunboat diplomacy", there doesn't need to be actual cannons. There is no other term that describes this tactic and it would break the flow to have the character explain every minute detail of how the boats were used.
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