Needs transition period after freeing Kiyoko/Kinu

[desmosome]

Just a minor immersion issue. It seems like all the dialogue and events regarding Kinu's dealings with the fox people assumes shes been around for a good while. Learning dance from Mai, romancing some dude, etc etc. The problem is that I slept for one single night after she got freed and everyone is talking like shes been there for weeks or months.

Maybe add a delay of like 1 game week or so before all these things happen. In the mean time, there could be just a small mention about their impression of Kinu/Kiyoko/the situation and vise versa. It would be even better if each event and dialogue had their own delays based on the context, but that's probably too much work.

Granted, in-game days and the narrative flow of time doesn't match up in many other places, but this was the first one that really bothered my "muh immersion" sensibilities. Probably because I was really enjoying the Kiyoko/Kinu content.

 

[The Observer]

The romantic events, etc, do have a 1 week period delay.

 

[desmosome]

well.. that's at least something, but it would help if the game didn't consider Kinu and Takashiro/Nakoya a couple already the very next day. One example is when you talk to Nakoya, the Kinu dialogue option says something like "He is future son-in-law something something." I haven't seen a single scene about those 2 yet nor did I talk with anyone about it. And come on... it's been 1 day since they were freed.

That's just one example, but it's a problem with every single dialogue about Kinu. Keep in mind that going around talking to the Kitsunes and Kinu right after they are freed is something that should be the natural step that every player takes. This isn't a problem with meta gaming or doing random things for gameplay purposes while putting off quests and such. If playing naturally and following up on your fox wife and daughter after they finally made it out leads to incredibly immersion breaking inconsistencies, it is something of a problem.

Anyways, if it's been brought up and there are no plans to address it, I guess I just gotta head cannon stuff and move on.

 

[desmosome]

oops.. yea I was referring to the 2 love interests. I totally butchered those names and even confused one with the drunkard heh.

As for the problem, well... if the hassle and workload of combing over all these inconsistencies is just not worth it to the author, I can totally understand. However, if they truly don't see any problem with how things are right now... hmm... that is kind of hard to believe tbh.

 

[desmosome]

I'm new to these forums, but I'm familiar with the dynamics surrounding The Observer and criticism. The thing is, I like his writing. The Kiyoko/Kinu stuff in the Astral Planes was some of the most enjoyable and fleshed out content so far. This is not even a nit pick about the writing or branches. I can't imagine anyone reading the Kitsune content after Kiyoko is freed and not think that something is incredibly wrong with the timing of almost everything. The actual writing and content is great, but some minor adjustments in when things happen would go a long way. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[The Observer]

I'm new to these forums, but I'm familiar with the dynamics surrounding The Observer and criticism. The thing is, I like his writing. The Kiyoko/Kinu stuff in the Astral Planes was some of the most enjoyable and fleshed out content so far. This is not even a nit pick about the writing or branches. I can't imagine anyone reading the Kitsune content after Kiyoko is freed and not think that something is incredibly wrong with the timing of almost everything. The actual writing and content is great, but some minor adjustments in when things happen would go a long way. I'll just leave it at that.

There are a couple of things to note here:

Firstly, I understand that there's a matter of time compression; one has to balance moving things along with any sense of realism and immersion. About a week is fine in my estimation; others may not agree, but them's the breaks. There are already those who gripe about having to wait a week to recruit Quintillus, and perhaps the biggest break from reality here are pregnancy times.

Canonically, the entire game happens in the span of about 2-3 months, which puts it at odds with a bunch of stuff that can happen in the game.

Secondly, the thing is that matters can move really fast in other cultures, especially when the families of both parties aren't merely involved, but have long-standing relations. My own paternal great-grandparents were from families that had known each other for several generations, had been "introduced" by a professional matchmaker with the help and full approval of their parents and all relevant parties; they were betrothed to each other within a week of the arrangements being made and married within the month. Weddings were less any kind of statement of romantic love between the parties involved (although it helped), and more formal alliances between clans and families.

 

[The Observer]

I am Chinese.

But even recently in European-centric cultures, it's not that off; Roald Dahl wrote in his childhood autobiography "Boy" that his Norwegian grandfather proposed to his second wife a week or two after they met.

 

[Shizenhakai]

I am Chinese.

But even recently in European-centric cultures, it's not that off; Roald Dahl wrote in his childhood autobiography "Boy" that his Norwegian grandfather proposed to his second wife a week or two after they met.

To expand a bit for the west, many german Volkstheater plays resolve around the problems of changing times.
The old generation tries to play matchmaker and assumes a speedy resolution while the younger generation prefers to find a romantic partner.
And I know that other languages and cultures who have similiar traditions, that is a popular topics for stories that play during the 19th-20th century, where the change happened in msot of europe.

According to what I have read about marriage and courtship over the ages, most actual courtships where rather quick,
the long courtships are often less about convincing someone to marry a person and more of a ritualistic character.
To prove sincerity, respect status and such stuff. During most of it the success was guaranteed (because neither have much of a choice), you just need to proof that you understand protocol.

Of course the higher the social strata you are, the longer the courtship "ritual" can take.

On top of that, often there is a need for a husband or a wife, especially for widow(er)s with children, so there is a benefit of hurrying the courtship up.

 

[desmosome]

There are a couple of things to note here:

Firstly, I understand that there's a matter of time compression; one has to balance moving things along with any sense of realism and immersion. About a week is fine in my estimation; others may not agree, but them's the breaks. There are already those who gripe about having to wait a week to recruit Quintillus, and perhaps the biggest break from reality here are pregnancy times.

Canonically, the entire game happens in the span of about 2-3 months, which puts it at odds with a bunch of stuff that can happen in the game.

Secondly, the thing is that matters can move really fast in other cultures, especially when the families of both parties aren't merely involved, but have long-standing relations. My own paternal great-grandparents were from families that had known each other for several generations, had been "introduced" by a professional matchmaker with the help and full approval of their parents and all relevant parties; they were betrothed to each other within a week of the arrangements being made and married within the month. Weddings were less any kind of statement of romantic love between the parties involved (although it helped), and more formal alliances between clans and families.

I appreciate your reply.

I want to point out that the problems I see does not come from the content of the writing. I wouldn't have problems with things moving fast due to what you, as the writer, intended. Things like arranged marriage (although Kinu and Nakano was not arranged by the parents), Kinu's ability to get along with others (at least on Hime version), cultural mores, and anything else that you wrote to explain the situation.

However, the way things move are at odds with what is written. Not only is it not possible for Kinu to have done all these things in the span of 1 or 2 days, most of the dialogue alludes to the fact that she has been around for weeks to months. I would just be repeating myself if I went through the examples again, so I won't get into it here.

The way I see it, it's a case of writing/coding mismatch. Either the writing has to accommodate the fact that all the new dialogues are presented to us immediately after they are freed, or the coding has to take into consideration what is written and trigger the scenes at appropriate times. Either approach is probably a bit too involved at this point. This brings me back to my first post where a week's delay before everyone starts saying their current lines would probably be a decent solution with little additional work load.

I also acknowledged that fact that time flow in the narrative is pretty jacked up in general. But many of those cases are due to players doing meta gamey stuff or just doing things at their leisure despite the urgency of whatever quest is available (or not available in this version).


*On an unrelated note, Kinu really should tell the Champion that a father should not bow back to their daughters. I can picture the Champion as some white guy trying to be culturally sensitive, but Kinu should say something...

 

[The Observer]

*On an unrelated note, Kinu really should tell the Champion that a father should not bow back to their daughters. I can picture the Champion as some white guy trying to be culturally sensitive, but Kinu should say something...

A genuine mistake on my part.

 

[QTPie]

Yeah, these are all sentiments I share. Kinu’s pacing in general feels really awkward to me; the events that guide her growth feel like they don’t trigger often enough (I got through two before liberating her from the amulet and only figured out there were more after looking up something unrelated on the wiki) and there’s a whole bunch of stuff that happens after liberating her that nobody tells you about, you have to find out for yourself, and feels like they should be products of events of their own. I didn’t notice any week-long gap between anything, either.

I read somewhere that Kinu was a ‘spite project’ (?) and I feel like that might be a contributing factor.

 

[WolframL]

I read somewhere that Kinu was a ‘spite project’ (?) and I feel like that might be a contributing factor.

Uhhhh, I don't think you quite get what's meant by that term...

 

[Shizenhakai]

Uhhhh, I don't think you quite get what's meant by that term...

That is my first time reading that, but I admit that I am unsure what it means.
I have a couple of Idea what a spite project could be, but I somehow fail to see how any of what comes to my mind would fit Kinu.

 

[Alypia]

That is my first time reading that, but I admit that I am unsure what it means.
I have a couple of Idea what a spite project could be, but I somehow fail to see how any of what comes to my mind would fit Kinu.

Think of how a certain subset of players would (and did) react to the idea that a parent - a father, no less, which is also important here - does not, cannot, and should not fully control their children, and that children become their own people no matter what their parents do.

 

[Emerald]

Think of how a certain subset of players would (and did) react to the idea that a parent - a father, no less, which is also important here - does not, cannot, and should not fully control their children, and that children become their own people no matter what their parents do.

That or the fact that people want to fuck adult Kinu and the game has it that you can't because she does that with some other dude. You know, the incest folk.
(Plus Fucktreon but that's obvious)

 

[Shizenhakai]

Think of how a certain subset of players would (and did) react to the idea that a parent - a father, no less, which is also important here - does not, cannot, and should not fully control their children, and that children become their own people no matter what their parents do.

Huh, seems like only reading stuff that hits my fancy makes me miss much of what is going on..
But seriously, a parent guides his&her child and hopefully a part of what is told sticks.
Aside from that, keep a healthy relationship, so that you can (as long as you can live) be there for help, support and advise -
that is what you should strive for. If you control her she will never become her own person, or be able to live beyond you..
Which ...would destroy her as a charcter and turn her into a twisted mirror.
..Now that I think of it, isn't that how high corruption is described in the game? That you only care about *your* views, pleasure etc and are
not interested in helping a person, in this case the own daughter, to develop on her own?

That or the fact that people want to fuck adult Kinu and the game has it that you can't because she does that with some other dude. You know, the incest folk.
(Plus Fucktreon but that's obvious)

I do not want to sleep with her because I have some sort of "incest-fetish". I want to sleep with her to prevent her turning into some deviant!
She needs deep, fatherly love to turn into a honest women!
Seriously though, I thought the incest ship already sailed because of Patreon? So I fail why anyone would be annoyed at The Observer for not doing something he is not allowed to do.. Unless they are weirded out that Kinu is refered to as "daughter" and not the much more wholesome "roommate".

 

[Stemwinder]

Fundamentally the timing issue is more of a plotting issue. Events aren't triggered by sensible actions or a series of ordered events; some are random, some drop in a deluge all at once, some are timed - it can easily become a confusing mess where a month's worth of development happens in one day and the player is left scratching their head.

It would flow much better if there were more definite triggers for specific and necessary events that then unlock more dialogue options and so on.

 

[desmosome]

For future playthroughs, if you want to trigger most of Kinu's events, rather than approach her on her tile, move onto it and off it repeatedly, each time you move on to her tile there is a chance for one of them to proc, so spamming it guarantees any unseen events will trigger.

Ah, This part wasn't covered in my OP, but I feel like a normal player that doesn't read the wiki will flat out just miss almost all of Kinu's story in the Astral Planes.

If you don't spam move into her tile repeatedly, which seems like a bug or oversight in the first place, you might end up not triggering her events due to RNG. Many of the events are also tied to Kiyoko's tails and that was one of the most ridiculous and meta gamey aspect of my run thus far. I legit spent 100+ in game days just sleeping to knock her up while Kas was supposedly in Winter City causing havoc.

I don't think I particularly had a very optimized run in terms of days spent up to that point, but I was still only at about 6 tails while playing very slowly.

If people were playing as the development was rolling out, there was likely a big downtime content wise where they didn't have anything to do but bang out her tails. At this stage though, the number of kids required is a bit too excessive (although its funny as hell when you release them lol).

Once again, I want to express my opinion that the content by The Observer is great, but the way its dished out has some glaring problems.

 

[Shizenhakai]

It may be because the CRPG I played the most back in the day was Baldurs Gate 2, but I actually manage to ignore the disconnect of time during gameplay.
Though yes, playing the game does not make much sense, time wise..
Like BG2, there is no downtime in the story. The only time where exploring makes sense is after the prologue, where you search the three leads you have,
(Trouble in the forest, no news from the farms and orcs in the foothills), but after that you should be in a hurry to hunt the big bad.
But if you do that, you will be underlevelled and will miss most of the game.

According to what I read, the game will take a couple of month. Unless you have some sort of way to increase the ammount of children you insert into Kyoko, you will need around 96 nightly visits to get her to 9 tails, which is around 3 month.
Additionally, there is a lack of reason to actually sleep outside of leveling or being really beaten up, so it is quite easy to miss your resting time at all.

Sooo, yeah, just try to ignore all time-y aspects, because in-game time and story time are clearly seperated things that have no connection to each other what-so-ever... =P

 

[Akhter13]

Additionally, there is a lack of reason to actually sleep outside of leveling or being really beaten up, so it is quite easy to miss your resting time at all.

Buffs & Dreams?