My disorganized thoughts on the corruption dilemma

redlightnin55

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Dec 21, 2022
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I've seen a few comments recently mentioning the corruption path, or lack thereof. And I'd actually been thinking on that a bit recently on my own too: why the dark/corruption options don't really go anywhere at least as of yet. While I certainly can't deduce the factual reasons, I think my past experiences writing my own works may help put into perspective why these things fizzle out or are left in limbo for extreme periods of time.

The first factor seems to be the mission statement that the champion is never going to be evil aside from possibly epilogue text depending on your actions leading to it. The design document states this outright, and you can see it reflected in the content put out thus far. Your character never really goes all in on the dark side. Now this is not criticism of any kind, merely an observation. That alone seems a heavily limiting factor on what can or can't be done with the aftermath of what should be major corruption choices.

For the second factor, and this is where my writing experience comes into play, it can be very difficult to write long-form, darker things consistently. Even more so when you factor in how this dark stuff might impact the not-dark stuff that surrounds it or even comes later on. To put things into perspective a bit, I'll unfold a hypothetical scenario here...

Say kicking Azy and Liaden into the honey leads to absolute corruption of the hive--the state of the hive changes in such a way that the champion becomes, like...king of it, or whatever, to further the player's corruption power fantasy in a meaningful way. In a bubble, especially early on in development, that's fantastic!

But now you've gone further into the game, bested the winter city, and inherited the wayfort, something which was not possible when the hornet nest was originally corruptible. You get your maid quest and, well...the hornets can be maids, right? So you bring your hornets into the mix, only now they're corrupt, and they spread that corruption. Suddenly your wayfort changes into a den of corruption and lust. Again, sounds awesome on paper, right? But in practice, it suffers myriad issues I'll try to diagnose right now.

Firstly it creates an insane amount of work! For each corrupt character, potentially multiple scenes must be written to accomodate for variation. If Daliza becomes corrupted, how vastly does that alter her scenes? Considering how her repression plays into her scenes, it would probably matter a lot. And what of our dragon girlfriend? Would she even stop in at the wayfort if it were corrupt, or remain there if it were corrupted after she started staying in the tower? And what of the corruption of the forest itself, for that matter? Would it require a total overhaul to account for the full corruption of the hornets? Just that one choice and consequence would be astronomical due to it not being a choice inside a bubble anymore.

And that last bit is perhaps the most significant part that may be limiting the implementation of corruption paths at this juncture. If you don't have every single detail penned from the beginning, nor every single area, side quest, or interactable individual along the way, it's far more difficult to gauge how these potentially massive corruption choices may play out when entering future content, to say nothing of how much more work each newly introduced piece of content would need to accommodate the potentially enormous variance of previous choices. Let's say each update has the same amount of work put into still: that would mean each update would be 50% pure, 50% corruption from then on, even in an ideal situation. In effect, this would make people who commit to one path over the other have to wait twice as long to get the minor advancements each individual update brings currently. The neutral/hero path that seems to be the default direction is also far and away easier to handle in that respect because it doesn't bring potentially massive infamy with it, and it doesn't have such a huge impact on the world in terms of reshaping it. Many instances of the heroic acts your character accomplishes only return the world to the state it was in before Kas mucked it up, rather than altering it even further for your own amusement.

Now onto my official second point, and once again referring to my experiences writing in the past--it can be hard as hell to maintain a darker tone for an extended period of time, such as the years it would have to be maintained on this project. Not all writers suffer the same issues, of course, but from my own experience, what I write and how I write it largely depends on my inspiration in the moment as well as my mood over an extended period of time. If I'm not in the mood to write happy things, then forcing myself to do it greatly hampers the quality of the result. In my experience, it takes a very specific kind of person to write edgy or dark things 24-7 just in regards to normal writing. To write dark and brooding sexual content focused on the themes related to corruption in this game on loop for years at a time--I can't even imagine how daunting that would be, or what kind of eccentric person would be able to do it.

And also, you have to factor in the strengths and weaknesses of the writer themselves. For example, I'm quite strong when it comes to writing energetic, fun-loving characters (I'd be great at writing bimbos!) and the hard-assed ones, too. But I definitely know that darker, demanding sex would be well outside my wheelhouse. It might be that it's outside of the current writing staffs' wheelhouses too, or at least close enough to the outside that they're just not focused on it.

Now let me wrap up with one final bit really bringing my long rambling post together in a much shorter, edible form...

We may not currently have a worthwhile corruption path, but it seems to be--due to the nature of how corruption will work--something that will be easier to implement at the late stages of development when you have an end result to work backwards from. As this game seems to want to avoid having scenarios entirely in bubbles, it makes even more sense to do it that way. Say the end result requires the player to bring an army to battle, and the hero path unites the elves, cats, dogs, and orcs to be that army. Now that you know an army is required, you can create a corruption path that makes your army corrupt hornets, plants, centaurs, etc. instead of the aforementioned ones. Not only that, but the writing of it may prove very daunting on an emotional level if the writers aren't more attuned to that type of thing naturally.

Ultimately, if their vision remains even remotely the same as it was originally, I'd say the corruption will come eventually. But as in the very definition of the word, something must first exist uncorrupted before it can then be...corrupted.

To anyone who read this, thanks! It's basically pointless ramblings from a nobody, but I appreciate it anyway! lol
 

Sacremas

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Jan 11, 2023
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Yeah at the current build because so many of the other paths (corrupting the hive, fighting Taldaz instead of talking him down, getting Arona kicked out, or even raping Infrith, who's not exactly as innocent as she was originally what with her later scenes) just leads to huge chunks of content being gone, with very little back for it. But at the same time, if given the choice of faster story progression or more time being spent to expand alternative choices where you fuck up large areas by choice with as much content as they'd normally have, I'd pick faster story progression and more generic content every time, and hope the actual corruption bits can be more fleshed out later when the championing bits are done. Because currently the main difference is if you romance Kas or not, and if you sex up the demon encounters or not, along with some dialogue changes and being mean to Etheryn. Which I seem patently incapable of, even the toons that give her the cold shoulder early or reduce her poor elfbutt to a crater at the first chance end up snuggling up to her later.
 
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redlightnin55

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I do agree that faster overall progression is more preferable at this stage. Get us forward, and THEN get us options, that's the way I feel about it.

And I too really struggle to maintain a low con Ryn. It's almost like instinct to try to raise her up. They really did a great job shaping that aspect of her interactions, I absolutely must say.
 
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TheCorruptor

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Jan 13, 2023
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While it doesn't take a genious to understand what's been analyzed here I think it's safe to assume that CoC2 is not and will not be a dark fantasy smut rpg as the first one...at least not as "dark" as the first one.
This is the impression I get from playing thus far.

The writers are not required to create both "pure and corrupted" content (which is reasonable) for the game judging from the "writers disclaimer" for creating new characters or content in general which is probably the same one with the first one.
Meaning that the creator's vision for the game is what matters and what guides the creation process the most atm.

If the creator wants it to be a mainly a "pure type" of adventure with some corruption sprinkled in the mix I think it's "already there".

What I believe is that this story will have a "good end" and a "good, corrupted end" for the land...it all depends on how will Kas find redemption (if she does) unlike the first game which was purely based on your actions alone and that condemned the word at the end...a "bad, corrupted" end.

Nice analysis btw :)
 
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redlightnin55

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Dec 21, 2022
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While it doesn't take a genious to understand what's been analyzed here I think it's safe to assume that CoC2 is not and will not be a dark fantasy smut rpg as the first one...at least not as "dark" as the first one.
This is the impression I get from playing thus far.

The writers are not required to create both "pure and corrupted" content (which is reasonable) for the game judging from the "writers disclaimer" for creating new characters or content in general which is probably the same one with the first one.
Meaning that the creator's vision for the game is what matters and what guides the creation process the most atm.

If the creator wants it to be a mainly a "pure type" of adventure with some corruption sprinkled in the mix I think it's "already there".

What I believe is that this story will have a "good end" and a "good, corrupted end" for the land...it all depends on how will Kas find redemption (if she does) unlike the first game which was purely based on your actions alone and that condemned the word at the end...a "bad, corrupted" end.

Nice analysis btw :)
Thank you!

I do agree that the game won't become genuinely dark overall. Sure there are some hamfisted bits and pieces that certainly don't match up with the rest of the project, but they're quite well isolated and don't really factor into the corruption aspect, and have nothing to do with whether the player is corrupted yet. But overall the mission statement remains true to that public design document in that your character will never be outright evil.

This thread is more about why the corruption options we have now don't go anywhere (yet) and just cleave content out of the game wholesale without giving you anything in return. But as I said, I think it's something that will be easier to work backward from. To put it another way, once they know what's needed concretely in the end, it becomes easier to plan out multiple ways to get it.
 
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TheCorruptor

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Jan 13, 2023
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Indeed it will be easier to come back and write more for the "corrupted path" of the PC but I find my self highly doubtful that it will be as fleshed out as the "pure path"
cause the PC's choices is not the main variable in which this world would be shapped. (sadly)

We've reached app version 0.5 in about 4 years...
So if it all ramps up and goes just a lil bit faster at best 2-3 more years (best case scenario) for the project's completion and the corrupted path is hardly fleshed out... (time)

You get where I'm going with this? right?
I don't think the corrupted path will be as rich in content as the pure one, a very obvious example...
There's a character atm in game that if you choose to corrupt the rest of her content just goes "poof bye bye".

I don't think the majority of the writers will get back at it and add a ton of stuff for corrupted PCs as it's well within their rights not to do so. (which is reasonable)
Also...you can't force inspiration. :/

Ofc this is just my assumption and opinion. :)
 
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redlightnin55

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Dec 21, 2022
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Indeed it will be easier to come back and write more for the "corrupted path" of the PC but I find my self highly doubtful that it will be as fleshed out as the "pure path"
cause the PC's choices is not the main variable in which this world would be shapped. (sadly)

We've reached app version 0.5 in about 4 years...
So if it all ramps up and goes just a lil bit faster at best 2-3 more years (best case scenario) for the project's completion and the corrupted path is hardly fleshed out... (time)

You get where I'm going with this? right?
I don't think the corrupted path will be as rich in content as the pure one, a very obvious example...
There's a character atm in game that if you choose to corrupt the rest of her content just goes "poof bye bye".

I don't think the majority of the writers will get back at it and add a ton of stuff for corrupted PCs as it's well within their rights not to do so. (which is reasonable)
Also...you can't force inspiration. :/

Ofc this is just my assumption and opinion. :)
No, it probably won't have as many options when you consider that a pure path also generally includes more neutral things in it as well. But to disagree on something, yes, your character does play--or rather, has the potential to play--the "main variable" in reshaping the world.

The most obvious one being REDEMPTION SPOILER ALERT
how things work out with Kas, which is something heavily shaped by player choice. Right now it's basically limited to romancing or not, but there's a quest called Redemption and while the theme is as such, you as the player have the power during it to straight up tell Kas that you'll become a demon and make a happy little family with her. Presumably this would open up heavily altered endings if it's properly followed up on. In case you missed it, Kas has two goals: make a real child and open a portal for infinite demons. That alone is a massive, world-shaping choice the player might be able to make someday.

Other, similar choices can absolutely have a potentially huge impact on the shape of the world. It's not hard to imagine the entirety of frost elven civilization could be influenced based on how you treat Ryn, which is also a choice you make. So on and so forth. I don't really know where you got the impression that the player's choices wouldn't matter in a CYOA.

One major point of the story is that you're not the center of the universe, you're not a god, but you don't have to be to have a huge impact on the state of a world with a story like this. You are the center of your own story, and your story has potentially huge repercussions on the world which would be covered in the endings.

As for time to completion, last I heard we were roughly 3ish years out from full release. Now that was secondhand info of someone saying "Savin said" but it sounds about right. The version number doesn't usually have much to do with anything, but even in the case that it does, it may well be that roughly half the remaining time to completion (version 0.75) could be devoted to finishing the neutral/pure path and the other half (0.75 to 1.0) to the corrupt path. We don't know for sure, but that's a fairly logical way to go about it. Though again, I doubt the version number means a thing.

As for characters going "poof" for the corrupt path... Yes, that's because the corrupt path is literally not implemented yet. Some of the options are there but they have no follow-ups. If they weren't intended to be followed-up on, why would they be there in the first place? They go poof because there's no content yet for them to not go poof. And that content is what I'm hypothetically saying could be added at the latest part of development.

As for what the writers would or wouldn't write, I can't say. I would say at least that it's unlikely all of them will suddenly just say "okay we're done now!" just because they've reached the point where they have to focus on corruption. Especially not when I'm sure they'll continue to write side content outside of corruption stuff just to keep filling out audience requests.

I'm still going to put my money on most of the corruption coming late. It makes a ton of sense to do it that way, plus you'd avoid the absolute shitstorm players who care about the corruption path would likely kick up if they were told it just wasn't happening. It'd be pretty crazy to skip out on it after so many years of letting expectations build up.
 
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Resawar

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Sep 21, 2018
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Posting my thought from the gripes thread here because it seems like it fits:

This topic brings into question a rather prickly topic that being corruption is in the name but nothing feel very deep. What I mean by that is in the quest they give you the dawnsword if you are good or a bimbo and if you are dark knight they give you a corrupted version with bimbo being able to over ride dark knight, now on its own they is a very typical choice be good, be evil and on its own as it should be with player choice and all. But my grievances could be best explained with an example.

My best example I can give without being unfair the the writers or going on an unfair tirade about the writers character is Fable. As in Fable 2 vs Fable 3 and how your action felt and there impacts. In 2 you can be an evil malevolent monster to the whole game and I'm going to exclude killing because this is CoC2 not murder sim, most actions felt like you are the asshole or the devil like screwing over the towns with high taxes making them poor or stealing the grave keeps wife. While in 3 its feels more like what CoC2 is doing with its evil where they let you be evil but at the end of the day you are saving the world from a approaching darkness after all so you cant be that bad, while I cant remember the quests I did get a general feeling my evil was more performative then malicious.

If we try to go by 2's logic the dawnsword could be explained away that the sword was too tainted and you didn't help clean it so its now to far gone and it's stuck that way to Lumia's lament so she needs to get or make a new holy sword with her power, unless she can't but that brings up other problems. But with 3's logic its does somewhat follow what CoC2 is currently doing with the whole hush hush on the PC's evil and more so make it that the PC seems to other characters lacking the information of what happened or that they are clueless on what happened and need help, getting rid of the possibility that the PC could have been malicious and keeping it that way.

This can fix in any number of way any such people could want but the most friendly to the current system would to simply add a bad end locked behind being corrupt and refusing to give up the sword getting yourself smote in the process as a way to give players the choice to stick to their convictions, as is hinted in the line why you have to give it up.
 

TheCorruptor

Member
Jan 13, 2023
15
4
No, it probably won't have as many options when you consider that a pure path also generally includes more neutral things in it as well. But to disagree on something, yes, your character does play--or rather, has the potential to play--the "main variable" in reshaping the world.

The most obvious one being REDEMPTION SPOILER ALERT
how things work out with Kas, which is something heavily shaped by player choice. Right now it's basically limited to romancing or not, but there's a quest called Redemption and while the theme is as such, you as the player have the power during it to straight up tell Kas that you'll become a demon and make a happy little family with her. Presumably this would open up heavily altered endings if it's properly followed up on. In case you missed it, Kas has two goals: make a real child and open a portal for infinite demons. That alone is a massive, world-shaping choice the player might be able to make someday.

Other, similar choices can absolutely have a potentially huge impact on the shape of the world. It's not hard to imagine the entirety of frost elven civilization could be influenced based on how you treat Ryn, which is also a choice you make. So on and so forth. I don't really know where you got the impression that the player's choices wouldn't matter in a CYOA.

One major point of the story is that you're not the center of the universe, you're not a god, but you don't have to be to have a huge impact on the state of a world with a story like this. You are the center of your own story, and your story has potentially huge repercussions on the world which would be covered in the endings.

As for time to completion, last I heard we were roughly 3ish years out from full release. Now that was secondhand info of someone saying "Savin said" but it sounds about right. The version number doesn't usually have much to do with anything, but even in the case that it does, it may well be that roughly half the remaining time to completion (version 0.75) could be devoted to finishing the neutral/pure path and the other half (0.75 to 1.0) to the corrupt path. We don't know for sure, but that's a fairly logical way to go about it. Though again, I doubt the version number means a thing.

As for characters going "poof" for the corrupt path... Yes, that's because the corrupt path is literally not implemented yet. Some of the options are there but they have no follow-ups. If they weren't intended to be followed-up on, why would they be there in the first place? They go poof because there's no content yet for them to not go poof. And that content is what I'm hypothetically saying could be added at the latest part of development.

As for what the writers would or wouldn't write, I can't say. I would say at least that it's unlikely all of them will suddenly just say "okay we're done now!" just because they've reached the point where they have to focus on corruption. Especially not when I'm sure they'll continue to write side content outside of corruption stuff just to keep filling out audience requests.

I'm still going to put my money on most of the corruption coming late. It makes a ton of sense to do it that way, plus you'd avoid the absolute shitstorm players who care about the corruption path would likely kick up if they were told it just wasn't happening. It'd be pretty crazy to skip out on it after so many years of letting expectations build up.
First let me note that English is not my native language and sometimes I might not be able to phrase what I have In my head as accurate or as elegantly as I would want or how it deserves.

I agree with @Resawar's post above...the ways in which you display your "evil" are limited by the story's narrative so far...but that's not necessarily bad.

While I do agree that your actions affect the world at least up to this point it seems that your fate and Kassyras intertwine a bit too much to say that these are clearly your actions, what you choose...unlike CoC which dropped ya in the middle of nowhere and told you, "go figure out what you're gonna do".

In CoC2 I feel like I'm more guided by the narrative than my own choices, yes the corrupted path needs to be built upon but all this takes time they need for the pure path as well.

Yes the app's versions can be misleading but you can't deny how much time has passed, I judge by the results/time, unless they can somehow speed up the process I don't see this finished with an equally fleshed corrupted path in under 4 years and I'm trying to be generous.

Now if this is what I think it is (type of narrative), atm we have in our in hands the scenario that "feels" like it's the "main" scenario but that's just what we've been made to feel/believe.
If it's truely a great story there's an even greater and ancient threat looming somewhere in the background, probably hinted/hidden (or not, just yet) in the lore in the codex which will make the scenario feel even more epic and rewaring at the end when it all pays off.
Think "Dragon Age Origins", Mass Effect 1...that type of plot twist which starts to unravel I front of you as you're nearing nearing the game's 4th quarter and end.

I enjoy this convo, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
 
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