Level 4 Powers -- Feedback Thread

[Savin]

As I'm nearly to the point of finishing OrcQuest, I'd like to get some community feedback on the powers that will be released ~around~ the same time as we increase the level cap from 3 to 4 (allowing you to take on the content in Southern Harvest Valley, the Frostwood, and OrcQuest). Unlike the level 2 powers, which were all recharge powers meant to fit into the newly-unlocked 2nd recharge slot, these powers will be a mix of at-will, recharge, and encounter powers -- letting you the player decide what parts of your arsenal you want to update.

I'd especially like to get this feedback before I go and write all the use/hit/miss text for all these powers, in case they need to be thrown out or reworked.

Spoiler: Warrior Powers

The Warrior powers at level 4 will help you focus on your current fighting style -- two-handed, shield, or dual-wielding. Of course, you can always buy all the powers later on to fill out your options if you decide to change loadout between fights.

Steady Strike
//Make a two-handed weapon attack that deals huge damage and recovers some of your Resolve and Health. Recharge.

Shield Cover
//Cover an ally with your Shield, granting them bonus Armor and Evasion for X turns. During this time, any damage the target suffers is transferred to you. Recharge.

Dual Blitz
//Make two attacks against a single enemy. If you are frigid, staggered or restrained, you shake off these effects with the ferocity and speed of your attack. Recharge.

Spoiler: Thief Powers

Duelist's Stance
You assuming a duelist's stance, which grants you +10 Evasion and +10 Sexiness. While in this stance, you make a counter-attack against the first melee attack that misses you each round. At-Will Stance.

Dastardly Trick
Inflict Heavy damage and Stun the target for 2 turns. Staggers if Stun fails. Encounter

Garrote
Inflict Raw damage and Silence the target for 1-2 turns. Staggers if Silence fails. Encounter

Spoiler: White Mage Powers

Having new at-will, encounter, and recharge powers gives White Mages a decision point: whether they want to focus on being a fighting crusader or a spell-slinging support character.

Charge Weapon
//Empower your weapon with argent light, causing it to deal bonus Holy damage. At-will Stance.

Shield of Light
//Surround a target in soothing light, granting a 50-point damage shield and imparting a small regeneration effect. Recharge.

Smite Evil
//Make a weapon attack that deals massive Holy damage and heals party Resolve. Encounter

Spoiler: Black Mage Powers

Ray of Frost
Deal heavy Frost damage to one target and inflict Frigid for 2-3 turns. Recharge.

Fireball
Deals moderate Fire damage to all enemies. Targets Evasion. Still deals damage on a miss. Recharge.

Soul Arrow
Deals heavy Resolve damage to one target and recovers some of the caster's Resolve. Recharge.

Spoiler: Charmer Powers

Charmer will probably be getting at least a partial rework as we collect balance data from the Combat 2.0 update (eg. now that your companions can Tease, too). I'm thinking that we need to move Song of Storms up to Level 1 so that a 1st level Charmer can get through the tutorial easier by functioning as combat support, and then have level 2+ powers that will let you start building up towards a dedicated Lust build.

Soothing Dance
//Heals a moderate amount of target's Resolve and alleviates Aroused. At-will.

Song of Splendor
//Deals Mental damage to all enemies and empowers ally Sexiness for 2 turns. Encounter.

Song of Courage
//Empower ally Attack Power and Focus for duration. Encounter Stance.

 

[Darkwarpalg6]

I'd have my eye on Charge Weapon. Song of Storms with Cleave and two shortswords was how I made a solo character work; she'd oneshot any mob encounter she came across, it also combines with Thundering Blow to knock out just about anything that isn't Alraune. I also feel Charge Weapon would be a go-to over other at-wills... other than Withering Bolt and Heal of course. Otherwise... it would be great for weapon builds focusing on Willpower instead of Strength.

 

[Balaknightfang]

I'd have my eye on Charge Weapon. Song of Storms with Cleave and two shortswords was how I made a solo character work; she'd oneshot any mob encounter she came across, it also combines with Thundering Blow to knock out just about anything that isn't Alraune. I also feel Charge Weapon would be a go-to over other at-wills... other than Withering Bolt and Heal of course. Otherwise... it would be great for weapon builds focusing on Willpower instead of Strength.

This brings up a good point: do song of storms and charge weapon stack? Song of storms is not, iirc, a stance, after all

 

[Savin]

This brings up a good point: do song of storms and charge weapon stack? Song of storms is not, iirc, a stance, after all

I think they would, unless Drake's got something under the hood that keeps weapons from having multiple buffs on them.

... Which might be a good thing if we ever get something like Gold Pine Resin or w/e added.

 

[hg2026]

I think they would, unless Drake's got something under the hood that keeps weapons from having multiple buffs on them.

... Which might be a good thing if we ever get something like Gold Pine Resin or w/e added.

I don't know how it works currently but buffs should probably stack additively rather than multiplicatively if they stack at all, e.i. two 50% buffs equal 200% damage rather than 215%
Having buffs not stack would need to be signposted pretty obviously ingame to stop people thinking its a bug, and there's a lot of ways to implement it that just sucks for gameplay, for example Destiny 2 had a 50% damage buff from an ability that stacked with a 34% buff from a gun, so they just made the gun remove the other buff when it applied its buff, but that mean you actually had a DPS decrease as the buff that got removed was better, it sucks.

 

[Upcast Drake]

I don't know how it works currently but buffs should probably stack additively rather than multiplicatively if they stack at all, e.i. two 50% buffs equal 200% damage rather than 215%
Having buffs not stack would need to be signposted pretty obviously ingame to stop people thinking its a bug, and there's a lot of ways to implement it that just sucks for gameplay, for example Destiny 2 had a 50% damage buff from an ability that stacked with a 34% buff from a gun, so they just made the gun remove the other buff when it applied its buff, but that mean you actually had a DPS decrease as the buff that got removed was better, it sucks.

Buffs are flat, not percentage based. +10 frost damage, +25 holy damage, etc.

 

[Colourless]

Duelist's Stance
You assuming a duelist's stance, which grants you +10 Evasion and +10 Sexiness. While in this stance, you make a counter-attack against the first melee attack that misses you each round. At-Will Stance.

thief skills so far tend to lower the MC's threat, so this skill doesn't really have any synergy within the class. Depending on how viable dodge tanking ends up this could be interesting for Warriors though.

 

[Hanzo]

Shield Cover
//Cover an ally with your Shield, granting them bonus Armor and Evasion for X turns. During this time, any damage the target suffers is transferred to you. Recharge.

Really bad to have on the champion, can be useful when used by meatshields erm, I mean companions, to protect the champion. Not having control on when it ends makes it even worse to have on the champion. Imagine being low on HP or resolve after a few turns saving somebody's ass, but this thing still lasting for some more.

Shield of Light
//Surround a target in soothing light, granting a 50-point damage shield and imparting a small regeneration effect. Recharge.

The amount of points the shield grants should scale up with the caster's level or stats to remain relevant through the game, IMO. 50 points may be too little at level 10.

 

[The Observer]

Really bad to have on the champion, can be useful when used by meatshields erm, I mean companions, to protect the champion. Not having control on when it ends makes it even worse to have on the champion. Imagine being low on HP or resolve after a few turns saving somebody's ass, but this thing still lasting for some more.

This was pointed out when it was made, yes. Given mechanics, it's more useful on companions. However, it could still see use by someone who actually wanted to make their champ a tank.

You're right about it, maybe it should be made a stance.

The amount of points the shield grants should scale up with the caster's level or stats to remain relevant through the game, IMO. 50 points may be too little at level 10.

50 is probably the skill's base power before all the scaling stuff kicks in. For example, the base damage of whitefire is 30.

 

[1234567890van]

I don't know what direction the thief class is going in, but you may want to give skills 2 diverging paths. Firstly, the current path seems to focus heavily on obscurement/decreasing threat and inflicting combative statuses. In summary: debuffs to enemies, massive damage to single targets and evasion. 2 of the new powers, Duelist's Stance and (to an extent) Dastardly Trick, don't fit this mold quite as well, more suited for a class with high threat.

I think they would however, be perfect for a class that prioritizes gaining threat rather than avoiding it; therefore there should be a split in skills where one path continues the low threat mold, and the other focuses on gaining threat, evasion, and counterattacking. This kind of class wouldn't be viable yet because of a lack of skills, but could be something to think about in later levels.

On a side note, the skill "marked for death" should probably be reworked now that you are able to manually control companions. Enemy threat is pretty much obsolete in this case.

 

[Stemwinder]

Shield of light is probably the weakest entry. In most battles it just won't have the right effects to actually protect its target; it blocks -maybe- one attack and just generally doesn't feel like a worthwhile pick over whitefire. In most every instance it's more effective to heal them. Maybe if it was a 2 turn damage reduction and threat reduction instead? For it to have enough utility to make it worth using over a simple heal it's got to have some combination of effects that'll take the heat off of a character who's being bombarded.

And I have to agree that shield cover was the other standout. The champion just can't effectively tank when the fight ends with their defeat. It's a suicidal skill that makes no sense.

I guess that's the theme: the new offensive powers are great but the defensive ones feel much weaker or like an odd fit or as though they just don't have the right combination of effects to do what they're supposed to.

 

[Stemwinder]

I don't know what direction the thief class is going in, but you may want to give skills 2 diverging paths. Firstly, the current path seems to focus heavily on obscurement/decreasing threat and inflicting combative statuses. In summary: debuffs to enemies, massive damage to single targets and evasion. 2 of the new powers, Duelist's Stance and (to an extent) Dastardly Trick, don't fit this mold quite as well, more suited for a class with high threat.

I think they would however, be perfect for a class that prioritizes gaining threat rather than avoiding it; therefore there should be a split in skills where one path continues the low threat mold, and the other focuses on gaining threat, evasion, and counterattacking. This kind of class wouldn't be viable yet because of a lack of skills, but could be something to think about in later levels.

On a side note, the skill "marked for death" should probably be reworked now that you are able to manually control companions. Enemy threat is pretty much obsolete in this case.

Ah, right, I was going to echo this but forgot. The counter-attack stance didn't make much sense for the thief since they hardly ever get targeted. It's an easy fix by making it a high-threat stance but you're right that it still feels a bit off for the thief's playstyle. Some complimentary skills would make it part of an effective duelist-type playstyle but on its own it only makes sense when the thief champion is the only one left on the field.

 

[Violent_Peace]

First Imma say I don't even play this, but I wanna give a hand with some of these perks, because I feel they could be a bit better for level four.

I believe in general for warrior you should just focus straight on defense, offense, and more health to make them a tank. With these perks they feel they are going the right way, but I feel something is kinda missing.

Change the name from steady strike to flourish or heavy swing because instead of a steady strike it sounds like an overhead swing attack that does damage to one person, a steady strike would be something more precise like a thrust to the enemy or something like a heavy reckless swing.

But it could be a good useful attack if you have it as a reckless swing, it would encourage you to have a team mate stun the enemy first then do a critical heavy swing and do massive damage only thing us the swing is slow but gives you back resolve and health.

Shield cover doesn't sound that bad, it sounds like a move from darkest dungeon where someone that was more tanker would cover someone squisher. Maybe add something to it where in further levels up or when you have more shield perks you end up taking half damage.

Now dual blitz I don't know what to say about. Part of me belives that it may be okay with what it is because it's two attacks with two weapons, but I also think that there should be something to it like where if you're effected by something you get stopped or you do less damage, and don't just shake off the effects.


Now with thief I believe you should call the move Dastardly trick, below the belt, make it a strike that ends up stunning people who are herms and males a bit longer.

Maybe instead of duelist stance you save that for a higher level, and you make the attack a dot move, something that's lust based like poisoned strike or if not poison make it a bleed move that drains health over each round.

Instead of garrote doing just raw damage, make it a critical move where the higher your obscure ment the more damage it will do to an enemy and have it lock you in on the one guy your garroting forcing you to have it either end them with the one move or having to miss out on 2 rounds.

I'm unsure on the other couple classes like white and black mage, I never dabbled in magical characters so I wouldn't be much help there. I just hope I could help with my advice.

 

[Megaduck]

I have some thoughts on the Black Mage Power Set.

Spoiler

Ray of Frost
Deal heavy Frost damage to one target and inflict Frigid for 2-3 turns. Recharge.

Fireball
Deals moderate Fire damage to all enemies. Targets Evasion. Still deals damage on a miss. Recharge.

Soul Arrow
Deals heavy Resolve damage to one target and recovers some of the caster's Resolve. Recharge.

Fireball
I think Fireball has no real issues. The Black Mage is already shown to use Flame with the Fire Summon and it fits thematically with Grease as well. There are a lot of other AOE effects types in the Black Mage powerset but none with guaranteed damage so it's both similar and unique. It feels like it fits right in with that the Black Mage does.

The only question I have is one of Balance. Why shouldn't my Black Mage start each combat by casting Grease and then Fireball? That's building to be a VERY powerful combo especially for clearing Trash Mobs. I can very much see myself making a Fire Black Mage with my slots as Grease, Fireball, and Summon Flame Spirit That build synchronizes good enough that I'm not entirely sure why you'd use any of the other spells. Other the other hand having themes and spells combining is a good thing.

Soul Arrow
Ok, this looks to be on the Shadow Magic line dealing Resolve Damage. I can see this spell working well as part of a single target build. While the Fire Mage Build is good for clearing groups the Shadow build targets single strong Enemies with resolve damage. The fact that it gives the caster resolve makes it different from Shadow Magic. I could see a good build as casting Shadow magic to arouse them and lower their defenses and then hit them with Soul Arrow to take advantage of that.

I do have a potential thematic issue here though. The Black mage tends to lean into the darker sections of the magic pool with Blight Orb, Shadow Magic, and Withering Bolt. All of those spells hit the target with Blighted or Tainted Magic. Name wise, "Soul Arrow" doesn't quite fit in that theme. You could make a "Shadow" theme and call it something like "Shadow Arrow" and then maybe give "Shadow Summon" or something later. (Shadow Shield, any creature that attacks the player gets resolve damage) Or you could go with that it seems like a drain attack and call it Soul Steal or something like that. Or to go with the corruption theme, Tainted Kiss and you are blowing the target a kiss.

One balance issue I have with this line is that it doesn't synergize with the rest of the party well. All the other party members are doing physical damage while the player is the one out that is doing resolve damage.

As a side note as I think about it, it might be cool get different spells as the character gets more and more corrupt. Or perhaps have a corrupt trainer that teaches the taint spells.

Ray of Frost
This is the one I have issues with. Ray of Frost looks very similar to Blight Orb. It's a Direct Damage spell that causes a status effect. Thematically, the Black Mage has no other Ice powers. It feels very much the odd power out.

Thematically, perhaps a Electricity power to follow on from Lighting Spike? Or change lightning spike to something cold based.

As for the power ups, we have one Physical Damage Spell, one Resolve Damage Spell. It feels like this should be something support based or tricky. Like Grease and Fire Summon. Not a direct Damage but something that changes how the battle runs. Perhaps something like a damage over time poison spell or a Weaken spell to reduce the enemies attack power.

 

[Balaknightfang]

I have some thoughts on the Black Mage Power Set.
Ray of Frost
This is the one I have issues with. Ray of Frost looks very similar to Blight Orb. It's a Direct Damage spell that causes a status effect. Thematically, the Black Mage has no other Ice powers. It feels very much the odd power out.

Thematically, perhaps a Electricity power to follow on from Lighting Spike? Or change lightning spike to something cold based.

As for the power ups, we have one Physical Damage Spell, one Resolve Damage Spell. It feels like this should be something support based or tricky. Like Grease and Fire Summon. Not a direct Damage but something that changes how the battle runs. Perhaps something like a damage over time poison spell or a Weaken spell to reduce the enemies attack power.

So, I'm going to offer up the advice that you're probably going to want an ice spell at some point. Fire things exist. Having it first appear as an option now is a good choice, I think, because while it's not directly tied to a previous option, it instead lets one build towards elementalist instead of specialist, I feel.

 

[Upcast Drake]

Stacking all your spells as the same element is handicapping yourself. If you like the thematic of being an X mage then go ahead, but the game itself is not going to push you in that direction. Similarly, it's totally fine if there are no other ice spells at this point.

 

[The Observer]

The only question I have is one of Balance. Why shouldn't my Black Mage start each combat by casting Grease and then Fireball? That's building to be a VERY powerful combo especially for clearing Trash Mobs. I can very much see myself making a Fire Black Mage with my slots as Grease, Fireball, and Summon Flame Spirit That build synchronizes good enough that I'm not entirely sure why you'd use any of the other spells.

"This enemy is immune to fire damage!"

Welp, guess you just became useless.

Since the game is in the starter zones, we haven't put in enemies with very heavy elemental (this includes piercing and crushing) resistances or immunities yet; people who think the sense command is useless are going to be pretty surprised once we move past the starter zones.

 

[Stemwinder]

New elements for the black mage are perfectly fine but he does have a point about it working very similarly to another spell. It's a bit boring for new spells to be 'that other spell but of a different element' . Giving each element its own thing would give them uses outside of simply hitting weaknesses and give the black mage some different styles to play with so they're not just picking which Cone Of to use.

Basic considerations for abilities are things like "does it effectively do what it's supposed to", "is it worth using on its own merits", and "does it fit into a sensible playstyle".

 

[Megaduck]

"This enemy is immune to fire damage!"

Welp, guess you just became useless.

Since the game is in the starter zones, we haven't put in enemies with very heavy elemental (this includes piercing and crushing) resistances or immunities yet; people who think the sense command is useless are going to be pretty surprised once we move past the starter zones.

Grease is a very very powerful spell. It's an AOE that causes the enemy it miss a turn and then causes double damage on the next attack for any party member using Fire and the AI (Seems to be) is smart enough to start using Fire when the enemy is fire vulnerable.

This makes a perfect combination with Fireball which is guaranteed AOE fire damage.

The Enemy being immune to fire damage is one possible solution, but that can lead to every enemy in the game needing to be immune to fire damage. I apologize if you found my initial post blunt but I need to point out that this make a very challenging balance problem. Fireball doesn't need just to be balanced against say Cleave but the Grease/Fireball combo needs to be balanced against the say the Rend/Cleave combo.

If you already saw the potential issues of Grease/Fireball then I didn't need to being it up. I know that all the designers are very smart people but I'm also aware that as a player I'm only looking at 6 spells right now in a single class and trying to see how 3 more fit in which can give me a more focused view then a designer trying to work on all the classes at once. So I think if I see a potential long term conflict I should point out where the potential conflict is, even if I'm being redundant, rather then just assuming that you saw it as well.

So, I'm going to offer up the advice that you're probably going to want an ice spell at some point. Fire things exist. Having it first appear as an option now is a good choice, I think, because while it's not directly tied to a previous option, it instead lets one build towards elementalist instead of specialist, I feel.

The question of how many elemental spells are in the game depends on how many spells are planned in the game in general and how fast the spells are acquired. Right now the Black Mage has 3 elements, Blight, Fire, and Lighting. You could possibly add in Taint for the Shadow line of spells. (Depending on how Blight/Taint interact.) So if there are three elements you get one element spell type every level up, if there are four then each level up you miss an element, if Ice is added and there become 5 then every level up you miss two elements.

Now of course, there are plenty of ways to fix this. The simplest is to occasionally give 4 spells per level up if you want a real big mix of elemental powers.

So it really depends on what the designers want for the end result of the Black Mage. Is 5 elements in the design plan? If so, then you are completely right, this is a good time to add in a ice spell and we'll get more ice spells over the next 20-30-50 levels or so. Then the Black Mage will be a Fire, Ice, Lighting, Blight, and Taint elementalist.

It really depends on what the designers want.



Everything else aside, I think the Black Mage level up needs a support power. Maybe it's an elemental cold one, maybe it's not. I really enjoy COC2 and I'm sure the designers will make a good decision. I've just put in my 2 cents.