Kineticist Feedback Thread

Amakawa Yuuto

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Sep 6, 2015
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Berlin
In my opinion there are just too many active abilities that end up cluttering the UI
I still think Special Attacks and Special Abilities should be separated, with Special Attacks getting their own button where "Sense" is currently. Sense could be moved above "Closer Look".
That way, all attack options would be on the left, the info-options would be in the middle, and the right would be everything else.
 

mallowmar42

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Jul 21, 2017
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Oh my god how long has it been since I posted in this thread, not even two weeks?! Holy shit! Me and Theron have been chatting about the Kineticist in detail in DMs so as not to clutter up the thread. Sometimes I wonder if we might know more about kineticist than the actual people who programmed the kineticist.

you have saved me bro, also second on the naming scheme of the ability names being super lame. Maybe the Writers or Gamplay Devs haven't seen enough psychic-oriented media but Acid Cloud or Thermal Sunder sound so basic asf from mind powers? Or the fact that we only get staves for weapons.
Thermal Sunder needs a rewrite for the action description alone; you "spray it", god sake man.

You're welcome, when this class is more finished maybe I'll make a definitive build guide for the kineticist. Still feels like the class is in testing, and until that is announced by fenoxo, I'm going to leave that post there. Maybe I'll update it, though for some reason I've been getting flagged as spamming or posting questionable content for some reason recently? Last time I edited a post it sat around for a week waiting to be approved by a moderator before I gave up and deleted it.

I can tell you my thoughts on builds have changed and I have more build recommendations for when the class is finished with some off the wall ones as mentioned by Theron.

Kineticist seems pretty underpowered and in need of a moderate reworking.

I'm not sure I would agree with this statement and considering how many times I've beaten up Dr. Lash testing things out I don't think he would either. Is kineticist perfect, no. Is it finished, definitely not. Is it underpowered, probably not. Things just aren't where they should be yet is how I feel.

1.
In my opinion there are just too many active abilities that end up cluttering the UI, and it would be preferable to have a few less but keep upgrading the ones you do have; instead of picking a new active ability nearly every level up you instead have the option of upgrading an existing power one level, passive ability the next, and then a new active ability the level after that, or something similar. Instead of picking geothermal spike for example, perhaps you could just upgrade thermal sunder into a slightly buffed version of geothermal spike?

As my buddy Theron has mentioned this goes along with the Wizard theme (though I'd disagree with the kineticist being the wizard analogue, I'd say more psychic monk). You have a lot of options, some more situational than others. Even with all the active abilities I tend to use most of them (though admittedly there are some options I never choose like mindcrush, reality schism, or psychic slam) most of the abilities stay relevant depending on what you're fighting an where you are.

Also thermal sunder might seem like it's a worse version of geothermal spike but behind the scenes it scales pretty well as you level. Theron did some digging and if you don't have geothermal spike then it's basically your go to attack against any enemy strong to cold damage (basically all of Uveto)

2
A lot of options you have aren't worth picking over their counterparts in any case. (Thermal Sunder > Kinectic Burst, Psytuned Vitality > Psionic Shielding, Psychogenic Vim > Vitality Siphon, Debris Field > Vortex Brand, Gravity Crush > Psychic Slam)

The only thing I'd argue with here is that Psionic Shielding isn't as bad as one might think. It's very easy to make a Kineticist that basically never gets hit with how high their evasion gets, an easy source of blind, and the ease of stunning with some builds; me and Theron have theory crafted a couple builds where Psionic shielding is better than Psytuned Vitality because you're never going to take anything but shield damage anyway.

Vitality Siphon and Vortex brand are trash though, utterly worthless for reasons that have already been stated in previous posts most notably mine where I mention how there's never a reason to take either of them. I agree with Theron that the idea behind Vitality Siphon is that it's probably more of a healing ability than an energy ability but you need all the energy you can get as a Kineticist.

3.
Compared to the other classes, Kineticist seems to have considerably worse counterparts in the auto-assigned perks, for example 'Unnatural Reserves' is pretty poor compared to 'Die Another Day' (Same effect as the Kineticist's, except with 25% energy AND a free flash grenade), 'Single Minded' and even 'Shield Regen' I'd argue, since shields recharge between fights, stop you from taking damage in the first place, and you get it a full four levels before the kineticist gets 'Unnatural Reserves'.
The Mercenary class getting a larger potential willpower increase from 'Iron Will' than the Kineticist gets from 'Steel Will' also doesn't sit right, not to mention the aformentioned 'Single Minded' willpower bonus.

I will admit I never actually noticed Unnatural reserves even when I had Psychogenic Vim and my health got dropped low. Maybe I would have died without it? Still I agree, it's a very forgettable ability. Would be cool if you got a free stun or something with it as well, something to at least let you know it happened. The willpower ability from Mercenary makes no sense to me, I guess it's a cool thing you can get that will get you a ton of willpower on a class that mostly doesn't care. Would be really nice on a kineticist, maybe replace one of the choices you currently make at level 6 with it except with intelligence instead? Could have one choice be based off intelligence and the other off of physique to really go with the weapons vs powers aspect they currently have going.

4.
Some perks are just bad, even useless, such as 'Telekinetic Warrior' and 'Third Eye Aim' (both on level 7, spoiled for choice really). I can see the logic in 'Telekinetic Warrior' as being immune to disarms (in a roundabout fashion) is situationally useful, unfortunately it's on a class that most likely isn't using their weapons for the vast majority of their damage anyway. And 'Third Eye Aim' is just... not good, if it were additional instead of a replacement that'd be getting somewhere, but I think just replacing these with different upgrades for Force darts or something would be a better option.
I also understand the thinking behind 'Mind Trick', an expensive but guaranteed way to break a grapple, one of the most dangerous and annoying status effects! It just doesn't work in practice, given that there is nothing stopping the enemy from just... grapplnig you again. And again. And even again! And now you don't have any energy left and you're still grappled. Making this a much cheaper action, or keeping the high cost and making it work for multiple rounds as a passive defense could work to fix it.

Don't even get me started on the Telekinetic Warrior and Third Eye Aim (they're both level 6 actually, have to be the pedant here). Theron might forgive TEA but I won't. I get why they do it I just disagree because I also don't think Intelligence does enough to make not maining physique worthwhile anyway (and outside of a very specialized ranged weapon trip build I don't think ranged weapons are useful on the Kineticist). I get it has its place but so does telekinetic warrior; and that place is a garbage can. I'm more forgiving of telekinetic warrior but it's still bad, it's only useful until you get to Myrellion or Uveto anyway after which it stops keeping up.

As for force darts, I think that's an interesting idea though I can tell you from experience that force darts is an incredibly powerful ability that you can build a whole character around if you wanted to. Probably one of the safer builds too. As for mind trick, I agree that it's overpriced and mostly worthless. Theron mentions that it's there for if you didn't invest in Physique and/or intelligence. Chances are you're going to invest in at least one of those two so why does it exist and why does it cost so much?

Having 3 entire perks dedicated to increasing your energy pool is a waste of potential, and leaves you weaker than the other classes considering that these upgrades are essential to play a very energy-intensive class. A single perk that gives extra energy for every point willpower might work, say 2 energy per point in willpower or 1 energy per libido for bimbos could be a good starting point.

That's only one more than every other class and arguably Kineticist is more reliant on their energy pool than every other class. Increasing energy based on willpower is an interesting idea though, it would end up meaning that Kineticists have one fewer energy perks than other classes.

I'd also argue that 'Mind Crush' really doesn't need it's cooldown, it's already fairly expensive, doesn't always work, and doesn't work against some enemies altogether, feels a bit needless when the Mercenary gets a low-energy, spammable stun move from level 1. I also think that crits from 'Acid Cloud' and 'Geothermal Spike' should trigger 'Deep Impact', that might be overpowered in practice but it'd sure be fun as hell, and it be a quick fix if no other changes to the class are implemented.

Mind crush probably needs a shorter cooldown but I don't think having one is bad. I think something needs to be done with it to make it equal to deep impact. There's some fun things happening with Deep impact that make it very unique and interesting. As for low cost spam moves I can tell you a deep impact force darts kineticist has that and it's probably better than headbutt. You just have to wait for deep impact.

There are already powers that can trigger deep impact (the game doesn't tell you which ones they are unfortunately) namely force darts, entropic whip, and gravity crush. I can see why they made it so only random crits proc deep impact, if they didn't there'd never be any reason to take mind crush. You would have listed that in your first point with deep impact > mind crush. Notably though, I don't think you would be wrong if you went back and did that. I'm not a huge fan of mind crush though I suppose it has its place as Theron will probably no doubt point out.

5.
Unlike the other classes, the Kineticist doesn't have two clearly defined upgrade paths.

They do, but Theron beat me to this point.

6.
'Acid Cloud' needs a cooler name and description :)
Acid Cloud or Thermal Sunder sound so basic asf

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. As for thermal sunder, the name is fine but if you're going sunder something with heat why are you spraying heat at it. Describe Steele cutting through something with a blade of solar fire or something.

Kineticist is in a kinda weird place, it's like "Squischy psychic wizard but not really" MAYBE adding something related to tease would spice things up but then it would be an over glorified tease attack class.

I would argue that kineticist is one of the tankiest of the classes. I've heard (from Theron specifically) of tankier smugglers but the kineticist is probably second out of the classes for how hard they are to kill. If you take Psytuned Vitality you have the most health out of all the classes by a lot and a flat regen of 5 health (less useful than the just having more health part honestly, if you're taking health damage 5 health a round isn't going to cut it). If you take Psionic Shielding you have the only class that has a consistent way to recover both health and shields while in combat.

You get additional defense equal to your level, you have ready access to blind that you can set and forget, you can fly which makes some enemies just a joke. Drayfox said that levitation is really cool and they were right. You also get a solid heal no matter which one you take (though you're taking psychogenic vim because it's better) and you have a bunch of abilities and weapons (one of which is notably better in your hands than any other class) that inflict conditions that render enemies unable to attack for a turn. You get stuns on crits and if you build for it you can make them fairly reliable.

I would never describe the Kineticist as squishy.

As for the lust attacks, I've seen a lot of suggestions for it but the same argument works for all of them: tease exists already and it's very effective.

Yeah I think this is the core issue with Kineticist, it has situational options, the problem is that a lot of said situational options aren't very useful compared to other classes' alternatives, it's a "This is a Job for Aquaman" situation but with the other classes having a rather much easier time depending on the situation.

Most builds of kineticist I've played are situationally ineffective and the situations are rare. My favorite build of melee/acid cloud handled everything in the game very easily. The real question is what do you want your main power to be? Geothermal spike, entropic whip, acid cloud, or force darts? No matter what you're playing though you have your back up of entropic leach and thermal sunder to see you through. Or just rely on your weapons, staves are really good when you get to the hook staff and the sleet shaft. Sleet shaft in the hands of a level 12 kineticist ties for the hardest hitting weapon in the game except it can also freeze and crush.

People keep ragging on Third Eye Aim, but it lets you ignore Physique and Aim, so long as you're not using a Status attack weapon. Cybernetic Subprocessor gives +5 to both Melee and Ranged damage (where Muscular Stabilization System reduces Physique and Steroidal Muscle Augment penalizes Will). It lets you keep access to more Damage Types and you can use the weapons as Stat Sticks, while actually getting benefit from the Perk.

The real problem with Third Eye Aim is Intelligence doesn't do enough for Kineticists natively*, so there's little incentive to max it out, unless you take TEA.
*Accuracy for 3ish powers? Speed of Thought.

Yeah, and I'm going to keep ragging on TEA until it has more of a reason to exist than "less stat grinding"!

Because of the way Perks are implemented, I'm afraid the name cannot easily be changed.

Why do you have to be such a buzzkill? Is it also hard to change the description of powers as well? Are we going to be stuck with spraying heat at things rather than actually sundering them?
 

Theron

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Still feels like the class is in testing, and until that is announced by fenoxo, I'm going to leave that post there.
I know Fenoxo has been reading the thread, and Jacques00 was reading it once recently, too. Hopefully, they'll update some things based on our feedback.

As my buddy Theron has mentioned this goes along with the Wizard theme (though I'd disagree with the kineticist being the wizard analogue, I'd say more psychic monk). You have a lot of options, some more situational than others. Even with all the active abilities I tend to use most of them (though admittedly there are some options I never choose like mindcrush, reality schism, or psychic slam) most of the abilities stay relevant depending on what you're fighting an where you are.
The devs have explicitly called Kineticist a Space Wizard. Which is funny, because I got the feeling the Tech Specialist was supposed to be the Space Wizard.
It definitely has some Monk-ish themes as well, though Wizards are also known to fight with Staffs. If we ever get any Psionically Attuned Daggers, that will settle it.

The only thing I'd argue with here is that Psionic Shielding isn't as bad as one might think. It's very easy to make a Kineticist that basically never gets hit with how high their evasion gets, an easy source of blind, and the ease of stunning with some builds; me and Theron have theory crafted a couple builds where Psionic shielding is better than Psytuned Vitality because you're never going to take anything but shield damage anyway.
You've actually tried it, then? I keep meaning to but haven't gotten around to it yet.

I will admit I never actually noticed Unnatural reserves even when I had Psychogenic Vim and my health got dropped low. Maybe I would have died without it? Still I agree, it's a very forgettable ability. Would be cool if you got a free stun or something with it as well, something to at least let you know it happened.
There's an icon and a message, but if you're not watching that...

The willpower ability from Mercenary makes no sense to me, I guess it's a cool thing you can get that will get you a ton of willpower on a class that mostly doesn't care.
Because it gives Lust Defense, I think. It's also used to resist certain status attacks, mostly Stuns. It may also have been added when training Will was a lot harder. I don't know the timing.

Don't even get me started on the Telekinetic Warrior and Third Eye Aim (they're both level 6 actually, have to be the pedant here). Theron might forgive TEA but I won't. I get why they do it I just disagree because I also don't think Intelligence does enough to make not maining physique worthwhile anyway (and outside of a very specialized ranged weapon trip build I don't think ranged weapons are useful on the Kineticist). I get it has its place but so does telekinetic warrior; and that place is a garbage can. I'm more forgiving of telekinetic warrior but it's still bad, it's only useful until you get to Myrellion or Uveto anyway after which it stops keeping up.
Funny, I'm the other way. I think Third Eye Aim has the edge overall. Does that mean they're actually fairly balanced? One of us is wrong? We're both wrong?

As for mind trick, I agree that it's overpriced and mostly worthless. Theron mentions that it's there for if you didn't invest in Physique and/or intelligence. Chances are you're going to invest in at least one of those two so why does it exist and why does it cost so much?
It almost seems like they felt it was mandatory. It costs so much because Steele has no talent for Telepathy/Telempathy (because they didn't want to go back and rewrite a bunch of scenes to account for a Telepath).

That's only one more than every other class and arguably Kineticist is more reliant on their energy pool than every other class. Increasing energy based on willpower is an interesting idea though, it would end up meaning that Kineticists have one fewer energy perks than other classes.
And would require investing in Willpower, when there is a perk that lets you calculate off of Libido instead.

Mind crush probably needs a shorter cooldown but I don't think having one is bad. I think something needs to be done with it to make it equal to deep impact. There's some fun things happening with Deep impact that make it very unique and interesting. As for low cost spam moves I can tell you a deep impact force darts kineticist has that and it's probably better than headbutt. You just have to wait for deep impact.
Mind Crush is 'on demand' Stun. Or that's the idea, I think. It also detonates Deep Freeze.

There are already powers that can trigger deep impact (the game doesn't tell you which ones they are unfortunately) namely force darts, entropic whip, and gravity crush.
I don't think I've ever seen Gravity Crush Crit. And if Gravity Crush can, Psychic Slam should, too.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. As for thermal sunder, the name is fine but if you're going sunder something with heat why are you spraying heat at it. Describe Steele cutting through something with a blade of solar fire or something.
Maybe if it was a higher-Level ability. At Level 2, you're still developing your powers.

Why do you have to be such a buzzkill? Is it also hard to change the description of powers as well? Are we going to be stuck with spraying heat at things rather than actually sundering them?
Because the code checks for "Perk Name". To change it, they'd have to re-name the Perk, change all the code that checks for the Perk and write code to update any save loaded with the old name.
Descriptions are much easier.
 

Resawar

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Sep 21, 2018
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Me and Theron have been chatting about the Kineticist in detail in DMs so as not to clutter up the thread
It would be lovely if you could post a thread with all your findings so far all in one place, just call it "Kineticist mechanics breakdown [work in progress]" or something else but having of yours and Theron's data all in one place you can update/edit or put out a new post with new data and let everybody else see would be nice plus you would still avoid clogging up this thread.

Been too busy with gathering CoC2 combat data for my own research, so all this research and data is very helpful.
 

General Drayfox

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Nov 7, 2016
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+33 (Level 8), + 17 (Level 12). (100/133/150) Unless I'm misunderstanding.
Kineticists get +25 (Lv 4), +25 (Lv 8) and +50 (Lv 12). (100/125/150/200)
Only just started playing again after an absence of a few years, and didn't notice that the level 12 for the other classes was a +12 to energy (which is a little rubbish tbh). But still, 2 perks that both grant +50 would be preferable.
I feel like the two upgrade paths are Weapons vs Powers.
I guess? But I wouldn't say it's particularly well-defined. It's more Powers vs Powers-that-might-sometimes-use-your-weapons.
It's damage scales a lot better than Headbutt, or even Deadly Shock, and is 5 points cheaper. It's cooldown might be a bit much, though. As-is, it can only be used every 5th round (1/6/11).
It's obviously a better power in terms of damage, it's just that the cooldown is far too long, which we all seem to be on the same page about.
Acid Cloud crits vs Stunned, Paralyzed and Grappled targets. Kineticist can only inflict Stun (at the moment). Generally, Stuns cannot be applied to already Stunned targets. Gravity Flux -> Geothermal Spike + Deep Impact -> Acid Cloud would be a cool combo, yes, but it also lets you Stun-lock a target to death once you've tripped them, if you have the Energy.
I shouldn't post when I haven't slept in 20 hours, I only meant that Geothermal Spike should trigger Deep Impact, and thus to do the combo twice you'd have to trip them again after Acid Cloud.
It's for people who decided to neglect Intelligence and Physique. If you maxed either, you should be able to reliably escape Grapples, regardless.
Ehhh, I guess? Even then my main issue is that for such a costly power there is nothing stopping the enemy from just grappling you again right after.
Part of the appeal of 'Wizard' is having a lot of situational options. The question is 'are they good enough when their situation comes up to use them'?
That's sort of what I meant, and I should of made that clearer. Even when the situation arises they don't feel especially useful above just basic attacks.
People keep ragging on Third Eye Aim, but it lets you ignore Physique and Aim, so long as you're not using a Status attack weapon. Cybernetic Subprocessor gives +5 to both Melee and Ranged damage (where Muscular Stabilization System reduces Physique and Steroidal Muscle Augment penalizes Will). It lets you keep access to more Damage Types and you can use the weapons as Stat Sticks, while actually getting benefit from the Perk.

The real problem with Third Eye Aim is Intelligence doesn't do enough for Kineticists natively*, so there's little incentive to max it out, unless you take TEA.
*Accuracy for 3ish powers? Speed of Thought.
Still don't think it's any good, but I'm also not entirely following what you mean and need to play around with the game some more and solidify my thoughts before I can really respond in a coherent manner.
That said, in a game where it becomes apparent through casual play that you can just train your stats up for free through grinding, having perks that are only helpful if you haven't put points into one stat but have in another don't really seem worth them taking up the slot.

(they're both level 6 actually, have to be the pedant here)
I knew there would be a silly mistake in there somewhere!
Also thermal sunder might seem like it's a worse version of geothermal spike but behind the scenes it scales pretty well as you level. Theron did some digging and if you don't have geothermal spike then it's basically your go to attack against any enemy strong to cold damage (basically all of Uveto)
My arguement is more that why have both perks when you could just merge them together? It'd take some tweaking I imagine but I feel like it could work.
 
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Theron

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I shouldn't post when I haven't slept in 20 hours, I only meant that Geothermal Spike should trigger Deep Impact, and thus to do the combo twice you'd have to trip them again after Acid Cloud.
If Deep Impact Stuns the target while it's Tripped, you can just Geothermal Spike again. If you keep Stunning, the target never gets the opportunity to stand up.

Still don't think it's any good, but I'm also not entirely following what you mean and need to play around with the game some more and solidify my thoughts before I can really respond in a coherent manner.
To be clear, I'm not saying Third Eye Aim is a must-pick, but I do think it has it's uses.
Telekinetic Warrior: Essentially gives a Crushing Kinetic weapon that scales with Level and Will if you have nothing in that slot. At Level 12 with 65 Will, it has 42 base damage. It scales with Physique/Aim as normal for weapons. It does nothing for you if you have a weapon in a slot. Like, say, the Xukwood staff for Deep Impact Crits. Or the Hookstaff for Trip Chance. Or the Rouser for +10 Evasion.

Third Eye Aim:. You can use your weapons for +Evasion/Shields, Draining/Vampiric/Freeze Chance, and/or extra damage Types and they will continue to scale, so long as you invest in Intelligence. Boosting Intelligence past the normal maximum will benefit both Melee and Ranged, while boosting Physique/Aim will only increase one, and the Cybernetics have downsides:

1. Sensory Dampener: +5 Will, -5 Aim. Increases effectiveness of all your powers*. +2 Damage to Telekinetic Warrior (Will/2, round down). Ranged slot is less important for Kineticists than the Melee slot, but you're still sacrificing damage/effectiveness.
* Some scale more with Will than others.

2. Steroidal Muscle Augment: +10 Physique, -5 Will. More likely to land Trip/Stun/Stagger Chance, but your powers are less effective, and less likely to land their statuses.

3. Muscular Stabilization System: +10 Aim, -5 Physique. Psionically Attuned currently only exists on Melee weapons and Levitate makes the Ranged slot less important.

4. Cybernetic Supbrocessor: +10 Intelligence, -5 Reflexes. +5 damage to Melee and Ranged weapons or Stun/Trip/Stagger chance for either. No penalty to powers. +5 to escape Grapples. Reflexes is the least important stat for Kineticists.

That said, in a game where it becomes apparent through casual play that you can just train your stats up for free through grinding, having perks that are only helpful if you haven't put points into one stat but have in another don't really seem worth them taking up the slot.
You can, and we generally recommend the player do so, but I don't think it should be necessary. The game really should be beatable by players who only use the +13 points/level.

My arguement is more that why have both perks when you could just merge them together? It'd take some tweaking I imagine but I feel like it could work.
For one thing, they cost different amounts of Energy. You'd also want it to do something if the player took Kinetic Burst. Otherwise, your choice is 'Concussive Augment' (which only benefits you if you want to make basic attacks a lot) or 'Upgrade an ability you don't have'.
 

General Drayfox

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If Deep Impact Stuns the target while it's Tripped, you can just Geothermal Spike again. If you keep Stunning, the target never gets the opportunity to stand up.
Major brain-fog right now, so in my head you just couldn't do that. Still, I enjoy chaining powers and using combos and more of that would be welcome in any capacity.
For one thing, they cost different amounts of Energy. You'd also want it to do something if the player took Kinetic Burst. Otherwise, your choice is 'Concussive Augment' (which only benefits you if you want to make basic attacks a lot) or 'Upgrade an ability you don't have'.
Energy thing is easy to solve, it just requires the higher amount of energy of the two abilities. As for the other point, this can be potentially solved by having these specific perks be the auto-assigned ones, or by giving Kinetic Burst it's own upgrade, which it really could use. Or even just replacing thermal sunder and geothermal spike with a single power?
 

mallowmar42

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Energy thing is easy to solve, it just requires the higher amount of energy of the two abilities. As for the other point, this can be potentially solved by having these specific perks be the auto-assigned ones, or by giving Kinetic Burst it's own upgrade, which it really could use. Or even just replacing thermal sunder and geothermal spike with a single power?

I think the major thing is, they do two different things. Other than both being attacks that do thermal damage the powers aren't alike, I mean geothermal spike also does kinetic damage as well, it's a split damage power. Thermal sunder is your go to pure thermal attack for enemies that are weak against thermal, if you don't take geothermal spike its your main form of thermal damage. Also geothermal spike is a finisher, while thermal sunder is a set up/general purpose ability. You don't use geo spike unless you have an enemy on the ground, while thermal sunder sunders an enemy which not only decreases defense but also seems to make it easier to freeze enemies (think it might be halving cold resistance as well) a thermal sunder on a myladon followed by entropic leach can fairly reliably deep freeze an otherwise rather resistant enemy.

Kinetic burst honestly I feel like should just be replaced, disarm isn't a good status effect. On top of all of the already listed reasons why that condition is bad it doesn't have any set up for any other powers and kinetic is not exactly a hard to come by damage type, you have a fairly alright power that you start with that uses and it most of the staves you can get also do kinetic damage.

I don't quite understand your animosity towards thermal sunder as a whole or why you would think it should be replaced by thermal sunder, I assume it's because your kineticist build was probably a spiker build. Which yeah if that was your build I can see why you wish there was an alternative to thermal sunder and I understand that kinetic burst is not an alternative. To other builds that don't take geothermal spike though, thermal sunder has a solid place in the kineticist arsenal. Even if that place is mostly on uveto

Only just started playing again after an absence of a few years, and didn't notice that the level 12 for the other classes was a +12 to energy (which is a little rubbish tbh). But still, 2 perks that both grant +50 would be preferable.

This I can agree with, I don't think it's necessary to have three perks devoted to giving energy and at all points in the game the kineticist is very energy hungry. There's really no reason not to just have the first perk provide you with 25 additional energy or for it to take 3 perks to get to 200 energy. Don't get me wrong it feels great to reach that point but I feel like it should also come sooner than the final auto perk as well.

Ehhh, I guess? Even then my main issue is that for such a costly power there is nothing stopping the enemy from just grappling you again right after.

My biggest issue with the power is that it is most useful early in the game when you can't afford it and then completely worthless later in the game when you will never struggle to escape a grapple and can afford it. Also yeah you can just get chain grappled to death with this ability, I've had that problem with the fucking Vanae on Mhen'ga early in the game where you'll get chain grappled or grappled, stunned and grappled until the fight is over. It doesn't happen often but it does happen and there's nothing stopping them from doing it. You might as well just let them do it too because at least when you finish the fight you'll only be down 5 energy as opposed to 75.

That's sort of what I meant, and I should of made that clearer. Even when the situation arises they don't feel especially useful above just basic attacks.

I think that looking to be able to use powers to solve everything isn't really a good thing to do anyway with the kineticist, whether they sold this as a psychic wizard or not it plays more like a psychic monk, an ersatz jedi perhaps. The class IMO plays better when you have a select number of powers you specialize in that your melee weapon plays into and you use your melee weapon a lot. If you freeze use the sleet shaft to combo freeze crushes, if you use acid cloud take CSG to stun more often, if you spike take the trip staff, if you focus entirely on force darts congrats just take two stat sticks for weapons and only throw force darts.

As is though, even with your melee weapon being so important it is important because your powers are important.
 

Theron

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...didn't notice that the level 12 for the other classes was a +12 to energy (which is a little rubbish tbh).
I forgot to mention: While +17 doesn't seem like much, 150 does let you train 3 times in a row at the Gym. It also makes Second Wind restore 75 Energy (equal to Smuggled Stimulant).

Kinetic burst honestly I feel like should just be replaced, disarm isn't a good status effect. On top of all of the already listed reasons why that condition is bad it doesn't have any set up for any other powers and kinetic is not exactly a hard to come by damage type, you have a fairly alright power that you start with that uses and it most of the staves you can get also do kinetic damage.
I think the Disarm could be replaced with Stagger. More reliable, scales as you level, and makes landing things like Deep Freeze more likely. Would still fit the flavor, too.
 

SeveringCrisis

Active Member
May 24, 2018
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Telekinetic Warrior: Essentially gives a Crushing Kinetic weapon that scales with Level and Will if you have nothing in that slot. At Level 12 with 65 Will, it has 42 base damage. It scales with Physique/Aim as normal for weapons. It does nothing for you if you have a weapon in a slot. Like, say, the Xukwood staff for Deep Impact Crits. Or the Hookstaff for Trip Chance. Or the Rouser for +10 Evasion.

Third Eye Aim:. You can use your weapons for +Evasion/Shields, Draining/Vampiric/Freeze Chance, and/or extra damage Types and they will continue to scale, so long as you invest in Intelligence. Boosting Intelligence past the normal maximum will benefit both Melee and Ranged, while boosting Physique/Aim will only increase one, and the Cybernetics have downsides:

1. Sensory Dampener: +5 Will, -5 Aim. Increases effectiveness of all your powers*. +2 Damage to Telekinetic Warrior (Will/2, round down). Ranged slot is less important for Kineticists than the Melee slot, but you're still sacrificing damage/effectiveness.
* Some scale more with Will than others.

2. Steroidal Muscle Augment: +10 Physique, -5 Will. More likely to land Trip/Stun/Stagger Chance, but your powers are less effective, and less likely to land their statuses.

3. Muscular Stabilization System: +10 Aim, -5 Physique. Psionically Attuned currently only exists on Melee weapons and Levitate makes the Ranged slot less important.

4. Cybernetic Supbrocessor: +10 Intelligence, -5 Reflexes. +5 damage to Melee and Ranged weapons or Stun/Trip/Stagger chance for either. No penalty to powers. +5 to escape Grapples. Reflexes is the least important stat for Kineticists.
What if you took the Bodily Psi Aim or Dexterous Psi Aim perk?
 

Theron

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Nov 8, 2018
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What if you took the Bodily Psi Aim or Dexterous Psi Aim perk?
Bodily/Dexterous Psi Aim replace Intelligence for the powers that use it. I'm unsure they replace for Third Eye Aim. I had a hard time reading that section.
Instinctive Psifocus is a prerequisite, so you can run off of Libido instead of Will. I don't know if it takes Steel Will into account, or if it's capped at Level*5, regardless. It seems you need 125 Libido to max out.
 
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Theron

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Nov 8, 2018
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Had a thought:
What if Vitality Siphon could restore Shields, if you also had Psionic Shielding? One of it's (many) weaknesses is that while it can theoretically out-heal Psychogenic Vim, it's healing is irrelevant until you actually start taking HP damage.

Psychogenic Vim already scales better with Psituned Vitality, so giving the other two synergy doesn't seem out of line. Still wouldn't solve the Energy problem, though.
 
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mallowmar42

Member
Jul 21, 2017
23
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Had a thought:
What if Vitality Siphon could restore Shields, if you also had Psionic Shielding? One of it's (many) weaknesses is that while it can theoretically out-heal Psychogenic Vim, it's healing is irrelevant until you actually start taking HP damage.

Psychogenic Vim already scales better with Psituned Vitality, so giving the other two synergy doesn't seem out of line. Still wouldn't solve the Energy problem, though.
If you gave it the same kind of healing and energy scaling but also added a similar amount of shield healing it would be a serious contender for choice if you took psionic shielding, it might actually be almost op if it did have good energy scaling. As it is, if you run low on energy and resort to vitality siphon to get you back up you probably need all the help you can get. It'll really lend itself to how tanky Kineticists already are and I feel like it would give a build that took both of those powers a completely different feel from one that didn't.
 

Theron

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Nov 8, 2018
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If you gave it the same kind of healing and energy scaling but also added a similar amount of shield healing it would be a serious contender for choice if you took psionic shielding, it might actually be almost op if it did have good energy scaling.
I mean 'overflow/overhealing' goes to Shields.

As it is, if you run low on energy and resort to vitality siphon to get you back up you probably need all the help you can get. It'll really lend itself to how tanky Kineticists already are and I feel like it would give a build that took both of those powers a completely different feel from one that didn't.
That's the thing, isn't it? If you want to heal with VS, you probably want to use Powers, but you've already spent 15 and will net 21 at most. What do you use?

If you actually want to restore Energy with it, you have to use either no powers or Entropy Leech. Best case scenario* at Level 12 it takes 8 rounds to catch up to Psychogenic Vim. And you're doing no damage for 2 of those rounds.
*+100% Energy from Psi-Noise Generator 3, Energy Leech each round for 5 (x2).

Vortex Brand: What if it made Force Darts auto-hit?

Kinetic Burst: I still like the idea of switching Disarm for Stagger. If they don't want to go through all the AI routines and make sure Disarm is actually useful when it applies (and we don't want to test every enemy in the game), I think it's probably the easiest solution.

Reality Schism: Needs 6 rounds before it's better than just using another 25-cost power. Only 3 powers are more expensive. Maybe if it were cheaper. Or made Entropy Leech/Vitality Siphon restore more Energy.
 
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mallowmar42

Member
Jul 21, 2017
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Vortex Brand: What if it made Force Darts auto-hit?

That's certainly an idea, it's very force dart centric and force darts are a deceptively strong power you get, especially with deep impact especially with deep impact but honestly I think perhaps a better idea might be (in addition to making the power not use up a turn) to heavily increase status chance while it's in effect since comboing off of status effects is so central to kineticist. If you did that it would actually be an auto take for a build that focused on freeze/crush combos with entropic whip and the sleet shaft.

Kinetic Burst: I still like the idea of switching Disarm for Stagger. If they don't want to go through all the AI routines and make sure Disarm is actually useful when it applies (and we don't want to test every enemy in the game), I think it's probably the easiest solution.

Disarm is cool but I feel like adding it when they did instead of at the beginning is more effort than it's worth. Disarm you have to calculate what an enemy is going to do if disarmed into things and while that might be easy to write as you go along, to add that in and balance it for every enemy that has a weapon in the game is honestly kind of unreasonable. While we've talked about wanting to see more support for Trip, I'd rather just see disarm phased out so they can focus on something more worthwhile.

Reality Schism: Needs 6 rounds before it's better than just using another 25-cost power. Only 3 powers are more expensive. Maybe if it were cheaper. Or made Entropy Leech/Vitality Siphon restore more Energy.

I don't know what reality schism needs, in truth it's hard to compete with haste as a power but haste is kind of worthless if you have built yourself completely around dealing damage with powers. I guess maybe it's good on a force darts build, I mean that's the most energy efficient build you can have, followed by freeze/crush and a freeze/crush build would be hard pressed for a reason not to take haste. I don't think entropy leech needs to be buffed to make this work, because I personally think entropy leech is one of the most balanced powers available: alright damage, good damage type, good status to proc, reasonable status chance, and it returns a small amount of energy when used. Buffing it just so one power is better doesn't feel right, especially when this power is so lackluster. It should probably just be made cheaper.
 

Theron

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That's certainly an idea, it's very force dart centric and force darts are a deceptively strong power you get
It's also one of the powers Kineticists are guaranteed to have and it's probably the most affected by misses. Certainly the most visibly affected and there's only so much Intelligence can do for it. As it is, you're spending 20 Energy and a turn to do 45% more damage over the next 3.
Put like that, it's really not worth it. Maybe if the -50% Evasion also increased damage done if the target has < 0?

...but honestly I think perhaps a better idea might be (in addition to making the power not use up a turn) to heavily increase status chance while it's in effect since comboing off of status effects is so central to kineticist
On the one hand, it's already pretty easy to land them if you have max stat, since statuses are contested checks. I guess it might make you even less reliant on Physique/Aim, depending on how it's implemented, fulfilling a bit more of the fantasy than just TEA. (Mind > Body).

Disarm is cool but I feel like adding it when they did instead of at the beginning is more effort than it's worth. Disarm you have to calculate what an enemy is going to do if disarmed into things and while that might be easy to write as you go along, to add that in and balance it for every enemy that has a weapon in the game is honestly kind of unreasonable.
They did add it early: Disarming Shot is a Level 4 Smuggler ability. But I don't think anyone takes it because Stealth Field Generator is Just Better. So nobody reported enemies that don't behave appropriately when 'Disarmed' and here we are.

I don't know what reality schism needs, in truth it's hard to compete with haste as a power but haste is kind of worthless if you have built yourself completely around dealing damage with powers. I guess maybe it's good on a force darts build, I mean that's the most energy efficient build you can have, followed by freeze/crush and a freeze/crush build would be hard pressed for a reason not to take haste.
You could have used Force Darts 3 more times for the Energy cost of Reality Schism. Worth it?

I don't think entropy leech needs to be buffed to make this work, because I personally think entropy leech is one of the most balanced powers available: alright damage, good damage type, good status to proc, reasonable status chance, and it returns a small amount of energy when used. Buffing it just so one power is better doesn't feel right, especially when this power is so lackluster. It should probably just be made cheaper.
Entropy Leech's Energy return becomes less useful to top off as the Kineticist gains more max Energy. And if you're taking Reality Schism, you want to use more powers, increasing Energy expenditure.
Think of it this way: To make up for the use of RS, you need at least 5 uses of Entropy Leech. You're doing 20% more damage, so you get fewer uses before the enemy is defeated.
Though I admit some of it is I really want VS to be worth taking.
 
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Couch

Scientist
Creator
Aug 26, 2015
1,614
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The thing is that for Kineticists, getting a large amount of Energy recovery per battle is non-negotiable. There is no just W+M1ing your way through most encounters as a Kineticist because you don't get Second Shot; you have to spend Energy if you're going to defeat almost any enemy before they finish getting through your Shields unless you're massively overgeared for the area.
 

General Drayfox

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Nov 7, 2016
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I think I'd also like to see some sort of passive energy regeneration when not in fights, like +1 energy every 5 minutes that pass. Help keep you topped up since you'll be using powers for damn-near every single fight.
 

mallowmar42

Member
Jul 21, 2017
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Kansas City
It's also one of the powers Kineticists are guaranteed to have and it's probably the most affected by misses. Certainly the most visibly affected and there's only so much Intelligence can do for it. As it is, you're spending 20 Energy and a turn to do 45% more damage over the next 3.
Put like that, it's really not worth it. Maybe if the -50% Evasion also increased damage done if the target has < 0?

That would be insane, especially considering what the average evasion for most enemies in the game is, It would actually make the power worth considering even if it does still use up your turn.

On the one hand, it's already pretty easy to land them if you have max stat, since statuses are contested checks. I guess it might make you even less reliant on Physique/Aim, depending on how it's implemented, fulfilling a bit more of the fantasy than just TEA. (Mind > Body).

It can either allow you to focus less on physique/aim or get more benefits by focusing on them. As it is, they might be pretty easy to land but they're by no means guaranteed or even consistent at times.

You could have used Force Darts 3 more times for the Energy cost of Reality Schism. Worth it?

The ability to use force darts 3 more times is literally meaningless with how efficient it is. Making them do more damage is actually worth it. More often than not you're probably going to find more use out of the extra damage than nine more possible hits in a combat.

Entropy Leech's Energy return becomes less useful to top off as the Kineticist gains more max Energy. And if you're taking Reality Schism, you want to use more powers, increasing Energy expenditure.
Think of it this way: To make up for the use of RS, you need at least 5 uses of Entropy Leech. You're doing 20% more damage, so you get fewer uses before the enemy is defeated.
Though I admit some of it is I really want VS to be worth taking.

you aren't wrong that the energy returns on Entropic Leech fall off in the late game. Perhaps it would be cool if one of the powers buffed it, maybe Vitality Siphon or something also buffed Entropic Leech as well.

The thing is that for Kineticists, getting a large amount of Energy recovery per battle is non-negotiable. There is no just W+M1ing your way through most encounters as a Kineticist because you don't get Second Shot; you have to spend Energy if you're going to defeat almost any enemy before they finish getting through your Shields unless you're massively overgeared for the area.

This is true, the closest you will ever get to a mash attack to win build for Kineticist is with either a force darts build or a freeze crush build with the sleet shaft and both of those require some thought at least in the press more than one button sense of things. Kineticist can be somewhat brain dead but it will never be as braindead as some classes can certainly be

I think I'd also like to see some sort of passive energy regeneration when not in fights, like +1 energy every 5 minutes that pass. Help keep you topped up since you'll be using powers for damn-near every single fight.

This would be nice, the ability to passively regenerate energy back would certainly help. It would also make Vitality Siphon more worthwhile. As is I basically try to make my second to last move in a fight be to drop Psychogenic vim. The only times you're not going to be using a power in combat is when you so massively overpower an enemy that it takes only one or two hits to drop them. As is if you are running low on energy you just have to stop and rest before the next fight because what else are you going to do. Arguably maybe other classes have to do the same, but it's more of an issue with Kineticist than it is with the others.
 

Hanzo

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Oct 10, 2015
234
119
Passive HP / Energy regeneration is something piercings or cockwear can provide, as long as it doesn't happen in combat. The're allowed to have outside of battle effects.