Is Gweyr a monster?

[Adan]

I know this is a recurring topic but Im doing this quest for the first time and see no active discussions on it. So here it goes.
I enjoy this more serious tone and moral grey areas in the story.

My answer is, she is heartless and deserved the exile. Heartless but straight and trustworthy. Monster is not the best word for it, but so be it, close enough.
My reasoning boils down to one thing , which was largely avoided in the discussions ive read before.
Could she have solve things differently? Why was she killing, really?
"game mechanics" or "plot needed it " is hardly a good answer, so we need to assume she had the choice.
She was dealt a terrible hand, no parents were coming to help and thigns already escalated to armed conflict, which wasnt her fault.
But the story was very clear that after a warning, she butchered everyone. She must have known what this means for her village and the people she knew.

It is simply not possible to kill everyone unless you mean to kill, you mean to be judge and executioner. This is more than simply attempting to save the girl.
For saving the girl, fighting is enough. Tackle them, break bones, chop off some limbs if you have to. Cut their faces so the blood spills in their eyes. If 1-2 dies, it is very much excusable due to the circumstances. Someone did their best to save an innocent from armed cultists, and duh, fighting is dangerous. There was an enormous skill gap.
Id wager that putting everyone out of commision might take longer but I dont think it is neccesary to do at all. Sanders was there. Wide attacks, wounding non-lethal points can be used to create openings and let one of them rush up the mountain, way before every cultist is taken care of.

Even if the girl is not saved, I believe you are an unambigous hero if your role in attempting to save someone is to fight the cultists the way I described. It is the amount of force warranted. Killing everyone isnt. She needed proprotional response but what she did is the equivalent to real life authorities responding to a bank robbery with heavy artillery fire.

Her actions would be very easily defensible, and other peoples fault in all this could be highlighted IF and only IF she was not intent to kill, only to save the girl at the cost of fighting them. Id argue that this is because they were her own village and she couldnt be certain that they went mad pernamently. Would it have been unknown cultists, or lets say an orc tribe attacking the village, that is a vastly different story. But she had to know she is gutting her own community, at best on the principle of protecting the innocent at all costs.
I am sympathetic towards being principled in that way but only to a degree. Some would argue the cultists youth were victims of brainwashing. I agree but I dont care , moral responsibility has to be assigned to them, otherwise a solution for the innocent is impossible.
So yes , reign down on them. But this brutality with which it was done so, showed cruelty, maybe even bloodlust. A simple fight does not result in everyone dying. So, monster.

 

[Melon_ear]

Not like it's worth a tit given that all of the following content assumens you like Gweyr and are deadset on bringing her back to the family but here it comes anyway.

She is a monster because it takes a specific type of person to murder a bunch of kids and expect nothing bad to come of it.
She deserved to get exiled for the sake of preserving the village and was sure as hell welcome to haul her ass back when people left regardless of her absence, so I guess that inside she does feel guilty for it or she's just so petty as to remain in the pits of the north to ruin her own family and spite Sanders.

I seriosuly doubt this is the case but the G-family questline seems to be building to something bad happening to Gwyn or Garret and Gweyr realising that losing your own child is a really big deal and champ can be super surprised about it.

This whole thing is one of the many reasons why this questline is easily my least favorite thing about the game.

 

[Shrike675]

Oh boy here we go again.

 

[Aury]

Woooo, back to this

 

[Adan]

Not like it's worth a tit given that all of the following content assumens you like Gweyr and are deadset on bringing her back to the family but here it comes anyway.

Yes I see now , im yet to see the end of the quest but this does not sound that terrible to me. Unfortunately the quest does assume you dont really mind what she did.
On the other hand she did pay for it. I assume there wont be much on the part of she realizing her fault before the reunion - based on what you say. It would be needed though. However if that is done, then im completely fine with a "forced" redemption arc for her. After all the game cant branch infinitely, longer story lines have to take a direction.

edit: adding to my first post -- even being judge and executioner and going for Tollus's head is still fine. Just not sentencing everyone to death who got themselves in this mess. I also forgot to mention Sanders had spells at his disposal, for getting through them and disrupting the ritual. Cultists might have been crazed, but probably to varying degrees. Some deaths might have been unavoidable. Some.

 

[zagzig]

What are the odds someone has a new take on 'Gweyr killed like 40 kids but maybe it was justified'?

Personally I'm hoping people finally realise it was all River's fault.

 

[Adan]

What are the odds someone has a new take on 'Gweyr killed like 40 kids but maybe it was justified'?

Personally I'm hoping people finally realise it was all River's fault.

Rivers? what how?
(wait nvm, have my suspicions)

(to get as close to justified as i think we can get: fighting is always risky and she had a right to put her own life first and the victims before the criminals. this ofc is still no excuse to full execution, only some unintended deaths & maybe offing Tollus since he is the real threat)

 

[Lone Wolf115]

She did what she did, and I don't blame her, she is a trained mercenary if she has to kill she will and she did. End of discussion on my part.

 

[Catmint]

I go by what the narrative tells me and slaughtering troubled youngsters was way out of left field, and therefore unwarranted. A good narrative tool but, to me, an upsetting storyline.

...However, I don't hate Gweyr at all. She is simply an introduction to a more violent story beat; an expansion of the narrative's horizons and the dipping of toes into darker, murkier scenarios.

This is all to say, I usually sequester GweyrQuest to the bottom of my to-do list when I'm playing--the game immediately takes on a more sinister tone after the Gweyr beat because it's quite difficult to steer a narrative back into the light.

 

[Animefan666]

The way I see it, things likely wouldn't have got so far in the first place if the townsfolk had actually did something. The children's parents failed those kids. Everyone who refused to fight back weren't helping either. They stood by and did nothing. If they wanted a better outcome, then they should've did something about it. Their inaction makes them the monsters.

 

[Joey75421]

Gweyr did nothing wrong in my opinion. The kids or young adults, not sure the exact ages, were all willingly going along with the kidnapping of this girl to be sacrificed. They were more than willing to try to kill River at the way point statue, as stated by how she had saved his life. These were people who were being malicious and eager to go along with such plans to hurt other people intentionally.

Sanders was being blocked by the large group since he didn't want to hurt them, meaning that without her intervention the girl would have been forced through the portal. These people were given the choice to surrender first, but chose to fight despite being told exactly what would happen if Gweyr had to go through them. They made that choice and actively attempted to kill her in order to prevent them from rescuing the girl.

So while she did nothing wrong, leaving the village was still in her and her family's best interest. The parents were not rational and only cared that their children were now dead, leaving some blame on them for allowing such behavior to go unpunished in the first place. It was only a matter of time before someone tried to assassinate Gweyr or target her family in a twisted 'eye for an eye' mentality.

 

[Melon_ear]

It's implied that they were under mind control which is less silly than saying dozens of people from a tightnit community managed to keep their plan of demonic sacrifice completely secret from everyone and that there wouldn't be at least one person who heard that and went on to tell the village paladin that the creepy bald guy is actually evil.

 

[Adan]

Their inaction makes them the monsters.

Agree with the rest but this is just very off. You have to have some criteria who you call a monster, whether its bloodlust or cruelty that makes one there is room to argue but its certainly not mere cowardice of falling short of your duties.
Also its easier to judge Sanders and the villagers afterwards but ahead of time they did not know how far thigns would escalate and might have legitimately hoped for the best. This doesnt absolve them but it is what it is, shewolf had to make choices in this escalated situation.

Gweyr did nothing wrong in my opinion.

I grant almost everything else you say. Blame primarily has to be put on the malicious youth (after Tollus). One slight inaccuracy ,you have no good evidence that they were out to kill or even that ALL of them were willing to kill. Their orders were not specifically to kill, they were guarding the site & trying to get the waystone. They did put Rivers life in danger, its a slight difference but it matters. Their ability or lack there of to do the harm of killing also should.

Sanders is bonkers for his inability to cause harm to those actively harming others. Altough the personal connection makes it understandable why its hard to do so.
Gweyr on the other hand is bonkers for maximizing harm.

If Garret was old enough to be a cultist she would have spared him. But since it was the neighbors kids, she treated in as a foreign invasion.
Her reasoning for it was explicitly wrong too, because showing Tollus that she can not be extorted like Sanders does not dissuade Tollus from meddling. Villagers are still sacrificable pawns for him.

 

[Animefan666]

Agree with the rest but this is just very off. You have to have some criteria who you call a monster, whether its bloodlust or cruelty that makes one there is room to argue but its certainly not mere cowardice of falling short of your duties.
Also its easier to judge Sanders and the villagers afterwards but ahead of time they did not know how far thigns would escalate and might have legitimately hoped for the best. This doesnt absolve them but it is what it is, shewolf had to make choices in this escalated situation.

Doing nothing is often worse than doing something. Even if they fail, they at least tried. To stand by and do nothing and result in a potentially worse outcome is monstrous in its own right. This wasn't some overnight uprising. It took time and effort for Tollus to get things to that point. Sanders said as much that everyone knew Tollus was up to no good and that they could've prevented it, but the villagers did nothing and with their own kids no less. Gweyr was exactly what they needed. Someone who recognized the problem and dealt with it as swiftly as possible. Without her there would be no town.

 

[TheGSone]

The cultists were willingly kidnapping the young girl for a sacrifice. A swift death was a merciful sentence.

Gweyr is not a monster. She did what had to be done. The parents are unhappy? Maybe they should have raised their kids better.

Can't blame Sanders for not doing anything. he seems more idealistic, being a priest and all that.

 

[Kingu2]

I say she's a monster. Fighting through the cultists and giving them a well deserved ass whooping was necessary but slaughtering all of them was taking it too far. killing them just was not necessary and it's quite clear, to me at least, that Gweyr went out of her way to do it. It's completely indefensible. honestly I'm content to just leave her to her punishment and feel that the town is better off without her.

I really, really dislike this whole scene for how badly it fits with the rest of the game. The whole game is Ecchi and romance and every fight ends in 'you can hardly even call rape' sex where the loser is hardly even injured let alone killed. and then you have this shit that feels like it got ripped straight out Berserk where everyone is just wholesale massacred. Like what the hell man? I don't want all this blood in my porn.

 

[SmithEK]

No, she did what she had to do. Those brats that joined the cult deserved it.. didn't want to die maybe they shouldn't of kidnapped an innocent. They won't children and knew what they were doing was wrong.

Sanders didn't have the balls to do anything about it and left Gweyr to sort it out..

 

[Melon_ear]

I still find it hilarious that Tollus was able to go around swaying people to his side without getting hacked to death like that map surveyor in Les Estables even though this is supposed to be the savage, lawless north.

When I first saw the blog about this quest calling it darker than regular content I was intrigued as I'm actually a fan of grimdark and envisioned a harrowing first person experience of hiding from and dealing with some insurmountable "BUTCHER OF HAWKTHORNE". I was really hyped. Imagine my disappointment when I played the content and was met with Dynasty Warriors, a [No] or [Yes (read: no)] choice, and a soapbox.

Absolute worst part of this is that it's so bloody intertvined with many quests and characters that it is absolutely mandatory to do this quest to the end whether you like it or not. Dawnsword quest is gated behind bringing Gweyr home and advancing Sanders' development and unless I misinterpreted a statement same will be the case with Lumia's keep and quest.
So if I do my playthrough making choices I want to make and leave Gweyr to freeze her ass up in the rift I am gating myself from content I've been looking forward to for the better part of 2 years. If and when there is an official confirmation of more content beind gated behind bringing Gweyr home I will be tossing all of my hopes for this game in the garbage and taking a leave from coc2 until next game comes out and hopefully irons crap like this out.

 

[Savin]

So if I do my playthrough making choices I want to make and leave Gweyr to freeze her ass up in the rift I am gating myself from content

Lumia's quest will require doing the Abyss Dungeon, but it is not gated behind bringing Gweyr home.

 

[Adan]

So, now that I finished the quest I still dont hate it.
Garret called her a neccesary monster, that sounds like a middle ground.

I guess our interpetations also vary on the consequences had Gweyr refused to intervene. Not suprising, since the story is colored by the characters in it retelling the events from their perspective, and they couldnt know themselves what Tollus was exactly up to. Gweyr believes she saved the rest of the village.
I dont know if that is true. Sacrificing a single person by sending through the portal is just what regularly happened on multiple years. Tollus blabbers something about some conjuction of spheres but I think we are left in the dark as to what that exactly means. If someone assumes its an end of the world scenario , then the weight of the consequences somewhat lessens the emphasis on the brutality she had committed. Cleaving someone in two might be the fastest way of absolutely ensuring they dont interfere anymore. It also not explicitly mentions how the girl was meant to be sacrificed (I'd rather be sacrificed to Lethice than the dark slithering abbys-thing thanks).
Tollus attempted to take control & defeat the baroness, so it was more than just about the girl. But we are simply left to assume that had the sacrifice succeded it would have ensured this outcome. Its not confirmed that Tollus becomes unstoppable if this one sacrifice succeeds. Not waiting to find out from Gweyrs perspective is understandable. using excessive brutality on worst scenario fears as opposed to good knowledge on what is going down is one more small reason I lean towards calling her a monster. - or at least doesnt color things in her favor

If anything this quest was engaging, despite or because the unsettling moral dilemma Im not sure. The contrast is a bit sharp between all the sex-dominance fights and this one with so lethal consequences.

 

[bibbitybobbityboop]

While we on the outside can pass judgement all we want, the important question is whether Gweyr knew a better way to resolve the situation. I kind of doubt it. Plus, when you're faced with unyielding zealots who don't always even have common ground with the reality you inhabit, that narrows down even the best people's options by a lot.

Maybe if Gweyr was a powerful wizard who could have done something like a mass sleep spell or a mass disenchantment against whatever mind control may have been involved, or some other set of similarly disabling but not destructive powers - but what she knew was how to intimidate and how to kill people, and the first option failed.

Plus, someone like her was needed to deal with Tollus and his top minion in the first place.

Also, as a person who's dealt with fist, rock, and knife assaults, I can confirm teens can have the strength and willful nature to be really fucking dangerous, especially in numbers. I presume teens and very-young adults are the 'youth' who got in the way; smaller children would have lacked the strength and stature to oppose the adults of the village in the first place. In a fantasy-medieval sort of setting, I'd expect a lot more of such youths to be a lot more dangerous, too; without magic on their side, Earth's medieval families couldn't afford not to make their children work, especially with the gains in strength and size children make after puberty. Nobles and royals were no exception, they simply learned different skills - including combat, using actual weapons of war. And one of this village's businesses was logging, which builds up a lot of strength.

Not that any of this was okay, but the situation Gweyr was in demanded immediate action. The only one willing and able to act didn't have a set of tools that could have led to a happy outcome, and some sort of response probably was merited. It's just a tragedy all around.

 

[Adan]

This is just quasi related, but I need to rant somewhere

Why is Garth suddenly the bad guy after the events of this quest? Its very annoying how berating my character gets on my behalf while I dont feel like that at all, I symphatize with Garth. (despite thinking Garret was in the right in their feud). Not the first time my characters dialogue is passive agressive or condescending, but Garth is the last person who deserves it.

The puppygirls feeling (or complex) to hate her mom is the least justifiable. She should be held to some moral standard despite "being fragile" and Garth should not be held to ten times higher standard than everyone else just because he can take it I guess. He didnt tell the player about Tollus, so what? What does he know about him that would have changed anything? Nothing. Yet the player acts like Garth wronged him as well, and wasnt just overprotective of his son and accepting a closure to the past. Garrett has a case against him but the player doesnt. Garth had not the power to keep Gweyr from making contact with Garrett if she wanted to, nor is it even claimed that he kept them apart against her will. I like the story but I hate this part...

edit: Sanders is cool too, given that he realizes he was far from perfect. But her daughter is very accusatory and opinionated on matters she has no business in...
I should have helped her to some honey earlier.

 

[Alypia]

edit: Sanders is cool too, given that he realizes he was far from perfect. But her daughter is very accusatory and opinionated on matters she has no business in...
I should have helped her to some honey earlier.

A big part of LightsaberQuest is the story of how Liaden comes to accept her dad's past for what it is. She starts out accusatory about all kinds of things, and ends up by being much, much less angy about all of it.

 

[Animalistic]

Well, it does not really matter what player or champion thinks since the game does not give you the option to express yourself. Well, there is that bit where you can let her die alone but that feels entirely separated from the whole dilemma.

Which then kind of begs to question -- why is it even in the game if it is not going to amount to much? I feel like something as simple as "Gweyr had left her family to hunt Tolls and his goons" would serve the quest line better if it is not going to commit to it's darker shades of gray.

 

[DeepDope]

She's definitely a monster. There was no reason for Gweyr to kill all of them, she is an extremely powerful fighter and she barely broke a sweat even when fighting the dozen of them at the end + the lizard. She considers that they could be lightly brainwashed but puts it out of her mind and goes for killing blows every single time. Like there was even a smaller group of them before encountering the bigger one and she still slaughtered all of them, so you can't even use the excuse that she was having a tough time with them. How did not one of the kids survive? Talk about fucking overkill. This is not to say Sanders isn't an idiot for how he handled it, but that doesn't absolve Gweyr of her crimes in my opinion.

But I think the worst part of it all is how we couldn't even tell her how we really feel, even if we choose to call her a monster the champ still covers for her a bit.