Is Agnimitra a Mary Sue and/or a psychopath? A discussion.

Dr. Bootytaste

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I love the writing in this game, its my favorite thing in it. But it's inevitable, especially with so many different writers working on it, that some characters miss the mark with certain people. Usually I just ignore those characters and go on about my day or there are other aspects that balance and flesh them out. Kiyoko and the Kitsune for instance, has a player agency problem. There's so much (very engaging and well written by the way) dialogue that simply has your character smile and nod through. There's scant few, in any opportunity to resist or criticize their goofy foreign culture and act like the proper barbarian they believe you to be. I am not a Kitsune, so why is it, whenever anyone in the den tells me "Oh sorry bud you just have to take it on the chin because that's how things work in the old country." I just tilt my head and saunter off with little more than a defeated "Shou ga nai....." The only example I can think of is being able to punch Takahiro in his stupid face. And that scene wasn't even the same writer. And it portrayed Nakano as strangely out of character. By and large though, I do love their content overall. I like playing the part of the outsider interacting with a group of people from a completely foreign culture. I like the fact that even your wife will, at the end of the day, see you as "one of the good ones" at best, and that you will never truly be able to understand and be accepted fully by them unless you literally sell their deity your soul. I like the tragic cats in the cradle situation you have with your estranged daughter. The positives make up for the negatives.
My main issue, however, is with Agnimitra. From the moment I was introduced to the character and started chatting her up I could tell I didn't like this one very much, and until I sat down and really thought about it I couldn't put my finger on why. But I think I've figured it out. In short, she's perfect. she's pretentious. and by extension, she's boring.
Agnimitra is a pheonix, she's lived for a very long time. She will outlive you and possibly everyone else on the planet. What a tragic and double edged sword fate has dealt you, Agni. Surely this will enable you to write about the flawed and in some ways, terrifying existance of a woman doomed to watch countless generations people continuously make the same mistakes over and over again. To see the cycle firsthand and the inevitability of mans struggle. To wake up in a world filled with strangers, where everyone you knew and loved is long gone. Surely this would take it's toll on someone mentally, it's a wonder she hasn't lost her mind, really..... Oh, what's that you say? Agnimitra doesn't show any signs of grief or mental anguish at all, you say? She's a playful, confident woman? The first thing she does upon being reincarnated is to jump onto strange dick like a thirsty man into an oasis? Okay, but surely this is a front, right? Some kind of coping mechanism. Agnimitra, tell me about your families. Your past loves and losses. Your children that have been lost to time like sand in an hourglass. Oh...... You experience no negative emotion at the thought whatsoever? Even as the literal walking incarnation of gods punishment at the end of The Green Mile? You can recall every single one of them with perfect clarity and smile as you reminice with no hint of bitterness whatsoever? Oh. How old did you say you were? Older than the advent of currency, you say? And you think the barter system was more convenient, even though the entire purpose of currency was convenience? O-okay. Well.
This is the most frustrating character in the game. I will contrast her with another character to demonstrate why flaws are important to balance out characters, and moreso very powerful ones. Nina, like Agni, she was born with a very powerful ability. She's a psychic master, like professor X without the wheelchair. Even with maxed out willpower it's made clear through the dialogue she could crush you psionically with a thought. Well, Nina? What's it like to be so awesome and cool and be able to basically do anything you want with your mind just by virtue of being born better than everyone else?
"Well, Doctor.... It fucking sucks mega shit, and I have to keep myself perpetually drunk just to numb the pain of being what I am. I'm super fatalistic and resigned to fate at this point."
Oh shit, how very genuinely interesting unlike some people I also know of.
This was all fine up until a few days ago, because I always had the option of just leaving her in her cave or throwing the feather into the ocean. The tipping point was finding out that Agni is actually the ancestor of my very own harpy child. And that knowledge is burned into my brain now. I can never forget that Zhara and my little Turkey are infested with Agni's Mary Sue genes, and that sucks. That really sucks.

Edit: Changed "Rumie" to "Nina"
 
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Bobonga

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It's been a while since I read through Agnis content, but I don't think that she's a Mary Sue or a psychopath. At least not as you have described her. A "Mary Sue" is someone who is loved and talented and always makes the best decision and gets the best outcome, usually without doing much work, training, or similar. Pretty much being perfect in every way by default. I really don't see that in Agni. A good example is the Cave of Challenge of the Siorcanna. Agni is really uncomfortable and almost freaking out. A Mary Sue would be like, "This tight underwater cave is the last place a firebird wants to be. But I'm not fazed at all; I will bravely venture on ahead, and I solved this music riddle after looking at it for 0.2 seconds." Agni had an untold amount of time to become a bard and develop her skills. Also, being a mythical creature is always a unique plus.


As for the psychopath part: I don't think she is one either. In fact, I think that her lack of negativity in terms of her quasi-immortality is quite refreshing. In modern media, immortality is almost universally portrayed as a severely bad thing. Be it either forced on people like in Elden Ring or a blessing that turns into the most cruel punishment. Like a person who achieves immortality and regrets it. To me, "Very long life span turns into pure torture and grief due to loved ones' passing, you will outlast everyone you know, etc." is a old hat. precisely because it's a common theme and the reasons for the suffering mostly stay the same. All in all, I see Agni as someone who lives in the moment and chooses to enjoy that. For example, that she immediately offers sex to you. For her, the very concept of time probably doesn't matter any more, and now is as good a moment as tomorrow or in a hundred years. Just a guess, but maybe she had those exact thoughts for a while. that her incarnation capabilities suck becasue everything around her will eventually go. She then learned to deal with that, but given her long life, we don't know when that happened. She basically got this problem sorted out literally ages ago.


Rumie, like Agni, she was born with a very powerful ability. She's a psychic master,
On a side note. Nina is the psychic Harpie. Rumie is the bee bartender.
 

Animefan666

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Sep 6, 2020
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I don't think Nina makes for a good contrast to Agni. Chiefly, because she has a far more complicated problem. She's more like that alien from MIB 3 that can see multiple timelines simultaneously.

Agni's more like Amazo from DC Comics, but obviously far more along the whole immortality thing.
 

Melancholy Man

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She does lack character flaws, so I get where you're coming from, she needs a bit more character flaws or an objective she feels strongly about. I remember I made a character list and I mentioned she gave off an "Interview with the Vampire" vibe but without the charm or world wariness. While I get that the "immortal that's done with everything" is classically tired but it does generate drama that makes the character interesting. She doesn't have to be a doomer but some deeply personal phobias/biases/opinions would go a long way for her.
 

Dr. Bootytaste

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It's been a while since I read through Agnis content, but I don't think that she's a Mary Sue or a psychopath. At least not as you have described her. A "Mary Sue" is someone who is loved and talented and always makes the best decision and gets the best outcome, usually without doing much work, training, or similar. Pretty much being perfect in every way by default. I really don't see that in Agni. A good example is the Cave of Challenge of the Siorcanna. Agni is really uncomfortable and almost freaking out. A Mary Sue would be like, "This tight underwater cave is the last place a firebird wants to be. But I'm not fazed at all; I will bravely venture on ahead, and I solved this music riddle after looking at it for 0.2 seconds." Agni had an untold amount of time to become a bard and develop her skills. Also, being a mythical creature is always a unique plus.


As for the psychopath part: I don't think she is one either. In fact, I think that her lack of negativity in terms of her quasi-immortality is quite refreshing. In modern media, immortality is almost universally portrayed as a severely bad thing. Be it either forced on people like in Elden Ring or a blessing that turns into the most cruel punishment. Like a person who achieves immortality and regrets it. To me, "Very long life span turns into pure torture and grief due to loved ones' passing, you will outlast everyone you know, etc." is a old hat. precisely because it's a common theme and the reasons for the suffering mostly stay the same. All in all, I see Agni as someone who lives in the moment and chooses to enjoy that. For example, that she immediately offers sex to you. For her, the very concept of time probably doesn't matter any more, and now is as good a moment as tomorrow or in a hundred years. Just a guess, but maybe she had those exact thoughts for a while. that her incarnation capabilities suck becasue everything around her will eventually go. She then learned to deal with that, but given her long life, we don't know when that happened. She basically got this problem sorted out literally ages ago.



On a side note. Nina is the psychic Harpie. Rumie is the bee bartender.
A fair point with the cave, I'll bow to your wisdom on that front. I haven't experienced this freakout because I've never taken her, chiefly because she leaves such a bad first impression. However, I want to make it clear I'm not going to debate the semantics. Whether or not it's acceptable to colloquially refer to her as Mary Sue isn't as important to me as stating my frustration with her lack of flaws. Onto the points.... I don't think that just because the "happy go lucky" immortal hasn't been done much in fiction means that it's a good idea. Immortality is something that should be explored to it's full implication. My issue isn't that she's not perpetually depresso expresso over having to constantly face the reality of being immortal in a world of entropy, it's that she hasn't expressed that sentiment at all. There's no fly in the ointment, there's no moment of vulnerability where she goes silent and wistfully quips that living forever is still living, with all the bullshit that entails. Gods are often presented as immortal in fiction, but that's the thing, they're gods. They are fundamentally different from us, and in the same way that I expect even the most hardcore of dog owners to eventually get over the death of their doberman, I expect a god to get over the death of any and all of his human concubines. Agnimitra isn't. She's a person, supposedly. And she doesn't act like enough of a person for me to be able to relate to her on any meaningful level. Even confident, self actualized people have moments of darkness. That's the nature of being human. Maybe she did have that come to Jesus moment where after a century of pain and depression, she decided to pull herself up by her bootstraps and stop sweating the constant deaths of her friends and family, but I don't see that. And I need to judge a character based on what's written. I doubt I'm changing anyone's mind with this, I assumed from the get go I was in the minority. But at the same time, I doubt I'll be hearing anything here that's going to get this sour taste out of my mouth.



I don't think Nina makes for a good contrast to Agni. Chiefly, because she has a far more complicated problem. She's more like that alien from MIB 3 that can see multiple timelines simultaneously.

Agni's more like Amazo from DC Comics, but obviously far more along the whole immortality thing.
For my point, I believe it does. Point being that characters with a lot of power need to be treated carefully, and that they should have character flaws to balance out the pros. Exactly what the superpower does isn't a point I'm arguing.

Edit: I keep making minor edits to change grammer and add missing words and whatnot. This is the second time the thread has been locked pending moderator approval. I will keep a running tally of every time this happens and see how high I can get my score.
 
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Bluebird42

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I adore Agni, so I'd like to pop my opinion in here, if you're still looking for some.

The thing about Agni is that she doesn't really see death the normal way. Her lives are something to be celebrated and reminiscent about, not mourned in the way that we do. Maybe back at the beginning, when she was first experiencing this immortality, she went through all of that. The thing is, though, that that development has already been had; it's not something that we, as players, get to see. She's been through so many lives at this point that there is no point in crying over it again and again and again. She's chosen to pick herself up off the ground and move on, while making sure to remember the things and people that were the MOST important to her - her partners and children.

Agni doesn't remember her parents, or if she had siblings. She doesn't remember a shit ton of stuff about her lives and that genuinely bothers her, if you get the right dialogue blurbs if you take her out to certain quests. She hates being immortal, but there's nothing she can do about it, so she's stopped dwelling over it and has tried to make the most of it.

Taking her to do TOC is a big change and a really good way to see a different side of her. Taking a firebird into an underwater dungeon is as about as antithesis as you can get. She's entirely out of her element and it shows. As for jumping a stranger's dick right after reincarnation, she's explained that, too. She went from a dried up old woman with no libido to a hot young thing with a raging one, and the PC was genuinely kind or curious enough to humor an old woman's request to take a feather to a temple. So why not?

As for her interaction with the other harpies, I think B wants to write stuff for it but his plate is FULL with Berwynne/Matiha preg and his other projects for TiTs and Not!Krystal. He's also mentioned (I think, don't quote me on that) that he wants to make one of Agni's final quests one where you help her end her immortality and she decides (if you're romantic with her) that the PC is the last family she'll have.

All this being said, I always welcome other opinions and this was interesting to read. Genuinely didn't know this was an opinion people had.
 

Boshe

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to be honest, if she were to constantly anguish over every death in her life forever and ever, she'd be in the mental distress equivalent of "nothing happened" scene for every waking moment and that doesn't sound very interesting for someone that is meant to consistently follow you around, let alone be boneable
 
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Dr. Bootytaste

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I'll say this right from the get-go. I like what Agni could be. I hate what she is. I think if you took out the immortality shtick and just had her be a playful, fun harpy woman with fire powers I'd have no issues. My problems with Agni all stem from the same source, lack of narrative coherence. For the unfamiliar, this is basically the glue that holds your suspension of disbelief together. The glue is strong enough that it can weather a fair amount of bullshit.
As an example, we're willing to accept that superman can fly through the air and shoot laser beams out of his eyes. But it's not Superman's ice breath or his super speed that people call bullshit on, It's the fact that his disguise is a pair of glasses. We're willing to suspend our disbelief enough to pretend there's a city where a magic man flies around and fights crime in spandex underpants. But that city is still filled with what we perceive to be ordinary, normal people (LIKE YOU!). People who you would expect to be intelligent enough to not be fooled by a disguise that amounts to just a pair of glasses.
This one particular instance of inconsistent storytelling isn't enough on its own to topple superman as a concept, but keep adding more and more of these little niggles.... The glue will start to come apart. Such is the case with Agnimitra, the moment she's introduced, the questions start pouring in.

-Why is it that, the first time you even hear about The legendary Phoenix who's quite literally older than the advent of currency, she's just wandering around the frost marches, un-escorted? Where are her followers? Surely she's inspired a few cults or religions in her time, where are the clergymen? The petitioners? Disciples? The creepy stalker types? The sadistic zealots who hate her on principle? The curious fans? Her family? Did her current family die before her, or did she just get up off the loveseat one day and walk out the fucking door? Why, or more importantly, how have we not heard of her before now? Where the hell is everyone? I've heard of King Kelsaz, the Witch in the Frostwood, but not the harpy woman who is old enough to be Sargon of Akkad's fucking grandmother? River recognizes her, but he's an on demand viewfinder for a god.
-Why has a literal demigod with such a wealth of experience and knowledge decided to walk out into the ass end of nowhere to reincarnate, while entrusting her feather to a total stranger? Surely she's worked out a system by now? What if the feather falls down a hole and you get trapped in a cave? What if it falls into the ocean and you spend the rest of eternity drowning (assuming the feather can "Build up heat" as she says, at the bottom of the ocean.) In perpetuity until the oceans literally boil over? What if you wake up in some dudes rape basement? You've had a literal eternity to understand the concept of risk assessment. This is a staggering lack of foresight.
-Why does she speak so casually? You want to write a characters dialogue so that it's recognizable as theirs, give them a "voice", and have their speech reflect them as individuals. Agni doesn't speak like an immortal demigod. She talks like a regular ass young woman. She talks like Childhoodfriend.mp4 from a shounen anime. I can tell a lot about Kiyoko by reading a paragraph or two of her dialogue. Polite, refined, intelligent, and passive aggressive. That all comes through. Agni doesn't sound like a woman who's old enough to have seen the invention of the wheel. She should be mentoring us, given the sheer breadth of experience she has. A normal mother tells you not to pour bacon grease down the sink, because she's seen the consequences firsthand. This woman has seen generations and empires rise from nothing, to the height of their power and then crumble to dust. The sheer treasure trove of knowledge. And it comes through in all the great dialogue like, "Yeah, I see the way you're looking at me, I know that look..... I've lived long enough to be able to tell when someone wants me to grow a dick."

If you, like me, got this strange sensation when you met Agnimitra for the first time. This strange, uncanny feeling that something about her was just a little off, this is why. It's because she's the uncanny valley of character writing. She has a complete lack of narrative coherence. It's like you sat down and went through the Socratic method. You thought to yourself, "What if there was a firebird named Agnimitra that revived after death and could never die?" And despite all the potential in coming up with the interesting logical conclusions one could come to based on that premise, you stop immediately after writing down, "sex would be kinda uncomfortable because she's really hot, like body temperature wise."

Agnimitra is a character that doesn't exist in the same solar system as her character concept. Why is she immortal? What benefit does it grant, narratively speaking? could you remove that aspect entirely without undoing who she fundamentally is? Yes. And it would make her infinitely less frustrating. To go back to the analogy with greek gods. They aren't characters in the traditional sense, they have very little, if any agency. They don't act. They facilitate, they insinuate, they observe. Mallach says it himself to Kas, they loathe to act directly. As a companion, Agni is a person who does things. This is a very important distinction, because now we need reasons for why she doesn't know, and do. And answers for what she did in the past during that 20 thousand year gap we see here on the resume. And why she hasn't attracted different folk tales and believers from all over the globe. If Jesus could make his own religion and gain enough clout to be publicly executed while effectively being a glorified homeless person in thirty years, Agni has no excuse when she's going on fifty thousand. You may argue that intent is the difference there, and I'll tell you that people that do have that intent and ambition, many, many people, are going to be making one in her stead, regardless of her say in the matter. Could be a whole sidequest opportunity, actually. Help Agnimitra stop a cult from sacrificing some poor schmuck in her name.

In parting, I think she has fundamental flaws. And needs either a rework or a lot of fleshing out. And by a lot I mean rewriting everything on Savarra's religions to facilitate the fact that every country in the world probably has at least a vague concept of the firebird. If it does turn out that Agnimitra is a psychopath and she ends up cutting one of the wayfort maids throats and eating her heart like Camilla from Pathfinder WoTW, I will retract all of my criticism immediately. Also, MrBtongue on Youtube has a great video on the ending of Mass Effect 3 where he breaks down narrative coherence.



to be honest, if she were to constantly anguish over every death in her life forever and ever, she'd be in the mental distress equivalent of "nothing happened" scene for every waking moment and that doesn't sound very interesting for someone that is meant to consistently follow you around, let alone be boneable

I don't think that just because the "happy go lucky" immortal hasn't been done much in fiction means that it's a good idea. Immortality is something that should be explored to it's full implication. My issue isn't that she's not perpetually depresso expresso over having to constantly face the reality of being immortal in a world of entropy, it's that she hasn't expressed that sentiment at all.
 

Boshe

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I am pretty sure she mentioned something like: "it isn't fun to see everyone you know and love die many times over" in her initial chats; I'm not mistaking her for Komari and I'm not going to be looking for it. Not really a deep-delve, but it's technically there, at least I believe it's there. As for the immortals that are fine with their condition, I did not mention anything on the trope being underutilized, I've just said that she's not going to be a particularly fun companion, both adventuring and boning -wise, while being a constantly sobbing mess. I ain't picking sides here, as I plain do not care about her in any way other than being compelled to "collect" her out of misguided and unnecessary completionism.

Also, one exploring the topic of immortality, not as the immortality of an individual character, but the condition as a fictional trope in general, should absolutely touch on those non-psycho/sociopathic few that are, at least at some point in their lives, not touched by the same immense sadness and/or nihilism that the wordsmiths of old, all very big experts on immortality with lots of personal experience, ascribed to everything with enough neurons to bash together and the aforementioned immortality to the point where you can wake a twenty-first century third world sweatshop laborer at 3am and he'd give you a grand-ass exposé into the curse of those forever-living. We do not know everyone's coping mechanisms and processes, let alone of those that were forced to transcend their humanity by having too much human experience.
 
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Animefan666

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There's a very simple answer to us not having heard of Agni's legendary status. It's exclusive to the Harpy's and we have no substantial content on them. It literally hasn't been written, yet. As to her lack of notoriety beyond the harpies, one might also consider that she doesn't go flaunting her immortality around. In fact, the most common trait of immortals in fiction is blending in. Some people might find the idea of an immortal roaming freely to be dangerous and/or blasphemous (like a certain vulpine and his hatred of Kitsune.)

As to why she's immortal, it's natural to her specific sub-species of Harpy, the Phoenix.
 
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Dr. Bootytaste

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I was going to riposte but, after Savin shut down my racist agenda over in the gripes thread, I have kind of lost my lust for discussing here. I'll probably stop posting for a while.....
Agnimitra's fine, I guess.
 
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B

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If it does turn out that Agnimitra is a psychopath and she ends up cutting one of the wayfort maids throats and eating her heart like Camilla from Pathfinder WoTW, I will retract all of my criticism immediately.
I think I've found the crux of your grievances: you're a murderhobo and you want to see Agni do something the PC can't.

I know you're banned and you're not reading this (or, at the least, you're not going to reply with the same account). I haven't fleshed out my companion nearly as much as I really ought to have, having given more attention to characters like Lyric and Berwyn since her implementation. Her character and her story needs a bit more time and I haven't been giving them to her, and I don't know when I'll be able to.

That said, I feel like, aside from the aforementioned murderhobo-ness, you're kind of projecting what you expect from Agnimitra and you're disappointing yourself when what you get isn't the same as what you convinced yourself you should get.

Just to prove that I read your posts, the primary basis for your argument is that Agnimitra has lived a long-ass time, and she's not acting like it. She should be morose that she's going to wake up one day and everyone she knew that generation is going to be dead. She should act as a God would: acting above the others, watching people live, grow, and die with the same passion you would give for stepping on a dried leaf during the autumn. She touts herself as legendary and mythic and famous and yet she doesn't have a cult following her around.

What you're doing is writing fix-it fanfiction, convincing yourself it's correct, and getting mad that it's not what's in the game. I don't need to justify how my characters act or how they think since, you know, I wrote them, but the short answer for why Agni acts the way she does is because writing an immortal that is also a sexable NPC in a porn game has to be appealing to as broad an audience as possible and I, and my audience, don't want to fuck someone that bears the weight of infinite time on her shoulders and lets it wear her down. The character you want appeals to you and people like you, and you proudly called yourself a racist in a different thread. Your opinion is worth less than nothing and you should be happy I'm entertaining this thread at all.

There's a longer answer for why she acts the way she does. It's all in-game and you'd get that answer by having some reading comprehension. I know I'm asking a little much from you, though.
 

Zackflame

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I think I've found the crux of your grievances: you're a murderhobo and you want to see Agni do something the PC can't.

I know you're banned and you're not reading this (or, at the least, you're not going to reply with the same account). I haven't fleshed out my companion nearly as much as I really ought to have, having given more attention to characters like Lyric and Berwyn since her implementation. Her character and her story needs a bit more time and I haven't been giving them to her, and I don't know when I'll be able to.

That said, I feel like, aside from the aforementioned murderhobo-ness, you're kind of projecting what you expect from Agnimitra and you're disappointing yourself when what you get isn't the same as what you convinced yourself you should get.

Just to prove that I read your posts, the primary basis for your argument is that Agnimitra has lived a long-ass time, and she's not acting like it. She should be morose that she's going to wake up one day and everyone she knew that generation is going to be dead. She should act as a God would: acting above the others, watching people live, grow, and die with the same passion you would give for stepping on a dried leaf during the autumn. She touts herself as legendary and mythic and famous and yet she doesn't have a cult following her around.

What you're doing is writing fix-it fanfiction, convincing yourself it's correct, and getting mad that it's not what's in the game. I don't need to justify how my characters act or how they think since, you know, I wrote them, but the short answer for why Agni acts the way she does is because writing an immortal that is also a sexable NPC in a porn game has to be appealing to as broad an audience as possible and I, and my audience, don't want to fuck someone that bears the weight of infinite time on her shoulders and lets it wear her down. The character you want appeals to you and people like you, and you proudly called yourself a racist in a different thread. Your opinion is worth less than nothing and you should be happy I'm entertaining this thread at all.

There's a longer answer for why she acts the way she does. It's all in-game and you'd get that answer by having some reading comprehension. I know I'm asking a little much from you, though.
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