I don't understand what happened at the White Palace (Rivalry vs Romance Route)

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MagicGal

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So I've just finished the White palace for the second time and I'm confused on a bunch of stuff, so I'm hoping someone can explain to me what happened:
-Why doesn't the Wraith show up in the rivalry route? The only notable change is that Kas is pissed and now perfectly willing to slapping us around.
-Why doesn't Lumia show up in the rival route? Beings from out of the portal show up, kill and kidnap vast amounts of your chosen ppl and you don't even peak in?
-How does Lumia know that a portal has opened up for the Wraith? Does she know when a Portal opens up or when a Wraith shows up?
 

Karakara

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The head canon, for I do not know if it was stated in text, is that the Wraith shows up because Kas was to enamored by the fact that the champ was returning their feelings of love torwards her that she half assed her portal constuction.

Gods involvment in this story is not all that clear, but the way I see it: they do not care if something is going to endager the masses, it only becomes a problem when it starts to endager the order of things. And since the order is them, you get gist. So the wraith was a bigger threat to them then Kas. Now, I am not sure if I buy even what I am speaking here, but that is how I can jusify it.

The gods seem to have a bigger presense in places that are directly worshipfull of them. So since Winter City is Lumias domain, she could feel the distrubence of corrupt force so she springet into action.
 

MagicGal

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The head canon, for I do not know if it was stated in text, is that the Wraith shows up because Kas was to enamored by the fact that the champ was returning their feelings of love torwards her that she half assed her portal constuction.
That's what I was thought too until I replayed the section and regardless of whether you flirt or not she completed the portal during the Alissa fight, which is before the option to choose rivalry or romance.
Gods involvment in this story is not all that clear, but the way I see it: they do not care if something is going to endager the masses, it only becomes a problem when it starts to endager the order of things. And since the order is them, you get gist. So the wraith was a bigger threat to them then Kas. Now, I am not sure if I buy even what I am speaking here, but that is how I can jusify it.
I don't think their involvement in the story was thought out that well
The gods seem to have a bigger presense in places that are directly worshipfull of them. So since Winter City is Lumias domain, she could feel the distrubence of corrupt force so she springet into action.
That would've been cool but that doesn't seem to be the case, Mallach and the Snake Milf can carry you to their dream realms regardless of location and association; they needed a solid rules of engagement.
 

Karakara

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That's what I was thought too until I replayed the section and regardless of whether you flirt or not she completed the portal during the Alissa fight, which is before the option to choose rivalry or romance.
She compleated it but true. But maybe it is like that Ikea chair you bought -- you did consutruct it, but you missed that one bolt and now it is going to collapse after a slight use.
 

Soulsderfuchs

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I can only guess the game power fantasy wouldn't allow the pc from actually trying to fight the Wraith without Kas at your side since it would be an insta lose scenario.
 

MagicGal

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She compleated it but true. But maybe it is like that Ikea chair you bought -- you did consutruct it, but you missed that one bolt and now it is going to collapse after a slight use.
lol instructions unclear
I can only guess the game power fantasy wouldn't allow the pc from actually trying to fight the Wraith without Kas at your side since it would be an insta lose scenario.
It doesn't have to be that way tho, you can still have the rivalry but them temporarily helping each other then pointing the sword back at each other after Lumia takes the wraith away. The Plothole was completely avoidable.
 

Soulsderfuchs

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Probably, but the hostile and lustful paths are wack anyhow so them getting less content is not that important tbh lmao
 
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Savin

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So I've just finished the White palace for the second time and I'm confused on a bunch of stuff, so I'm hoping someone can explain to me what happened:
-Why doesn't the Wraith show up in the rivalry route? The only notable change is that Kas is pissed and now perfectly willing to slapping us around.
-Why doesn't Lumia show up in the rival route? Beings from out of the portal show up, kill and kidnap vast amounts of your chosen ppl and you don't even peak in?
-How does Lumia know that a portal has opened up for the Wraith? Does she know when a Portal opens up or when a Wraith shows up?
-Because Kas doesn't fuck up making the portal.
-Because there's no Wraith.
-Because she lives like a couple miles away and sensed Fuckery on her lawn.
 
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MagicGal

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Probably, but the hostile and lustful paths are wack anyhow so them getting less content is not that important tbh lmao
Most route decisions are goofy but Villain behavior gets the brown end a lot.
-Because Kas doesn't fuck up making the portal.
-Because there's no Wraith.
The portal fails in both routes so why doesn't the Wraith show?
-Because she lives like a couple miles away and sensed Fuckery on her lawn.
So she doesn't consider portals popping up in her backyard and demonic chicks raiding her ppl and chief recruit center Fuckery?
 

Savin

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The portal fails in both routes so why doesn't the Wraith show?
it fails harder in the Romance route. Kas's starting to get distracted by conflicting feelings and desires and bungles her work.

So she doesn't consider portals popping up in her backyard and demonic chicks raiding her ppl and chief recruit center Fuckery?
Not on a scale she needs to get involved with personally, which turns out to be correct -- in the non-Romance route Kas's portal fails pretty quickly and she has to leave, and the PC is able to clean house on their own without divine intervention.

While they may occasionally put a thumb on the scale (see Armitia in A Feast for Heroes, or the gods offering you a Soulbinding), the Savarran pantheon doesn't intervene in things directly unless it's an immediate apocalyptic threat. So long as a matter can be resolved by mortal hands, they'll trust mortals to handle their own affairs. They're also generally concerned that, historically, their direct intervention has lead to a great deal of collateral damage -- there's a reason Lumia drags baby Wraith-chan off somewhere else to go fight.

At this point in the story Kas's very much in the realm of "shit the heroes of Savarra can probably deal with on their own."

Plus the gods have various opinions about Kas and her plots of their own. Mallach says he's interested in Kas's Marethian soul science, though not so much that his followers aren't massing for a Crusade in the south. Tira's interested in seeing if Kas can be redeemed or brought to heel by you; Armitia says Tira wants to give Kas a chance before the executioner's axe falls.

The Sevens' position being a point of contention is entirely reasonable, but it is their firmly held position.
 
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Karakara

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So if champ fails, the story does not bad end? Huh. Kind of takes the wind out of the narative sail.
 

TheShepard256

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So if champ fails, the story does not bad end? Huh. Kind of takes the wind out of the narative sail.
It's probably the case that if Champ fails, either a) Kasyrra wins, dethroning the Seven and corrupting the entire planet, or b) she's defeated, but much more death and destruction is wrought in the process, particularly in the Frost Marches - Champ's victory will avert that.
 
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Savin

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the story does not bad end
The story pretty clearly bad-ends if you fail. By the time a Crusade arrives, the entire Frost Marches will have been overrun by demons with everyone either dying or losing their souls, including all your friends and potential family up there.

And that's just if you don't buy Kas being a threat to the Seven in the first place. SOMEHOW all of Mareth's gods got knocked over and forced into hiding by the demons. Just because the Seven don't think she's a threat doesn't mean she isn't -- though whether YOU think she is or isn't is up to you.

It's probably the case that if Champ fails, either a) Kasyrra wins, dethroning the Seven and corrupting the entire planet, or b) she's defeated, but much more death and destruction is wrought in the process, particularly in the Frost Marches - Champ's victory will avert that.
So yeah this. Sniped by like 10 seconds.
 
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Karakara

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I am just little confused by the gods involvement in this. It is two things that bother me: "we will interfere when we feel like it" and "they can squish Kas like a bug" just does not really make me believe that Kas, or the cult or the demons, are any threat to them.

I am fine with gods being striken down by their own hubris, but their presence just makes everything else seem like a such a downgrade when it comes to a powerlevel that I am hard to believe anything can be a real threat to them. Even Wraiths, as they are now, are to nebolus of a concept up to this point of a game.

The story pretty clearly bad-ends if you fail. By the time a Crusade arrives, the entire Frost Marches will have been overrun by demons with everyone either dying or losing their souls, including all your friends and potential family up there.

And that's just if you don't buy Kas being a threat to the Seven in the first place.
So to make it clear: gods do not care if everyone in the marches dies/demonifies? Since If I remember right, the Crusade was not planned by them.
I am fine with that, since I am fine with the Gods not being involved with the workings of mortals. If someone is able to take over, they would let them. As long as they are not threat to their position.

I am little curious as to how what is happening is not a concern to them (Kas in universe has only been there for couple of months yet she overthrew, corrupted and pilaged plenty of places), but as long as we are center of attention, I am fine with it.
 

Savin

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So to make it clear: gods do not care if everyone in the marches dies/demonifies?
They care, but they also think it's in mortal hands to stop it from happening. And if it does happen, it should be mortals that fight the demons back and contain or destroy them. They do not believe (correctly or incorrectly, YMMV) that the Marethian Demon problem is sufficiently bad that mortals cannot handle things.

And hey, if you win the game, you prove them right :)
 

Karakara

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Saying they care while also allowing it to happen is certainly one way to look at it.

Damn, gods are unlikable bunch. As Long as they do not take the credit for my work, I am fine with "proving them right."
 

Ace Hangman

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The gods aren't all powerful. They can be destroyed. Lumia can be taken down by a [powerful enough] Wraith, even with your help and all your companions at her side. Thinking they should all just jump into battle (and she's one of the more martial ones) is foolish, and trying to say they are stupid or callous or don't care because they aren't acting like aggressive, strike-first violence peddlers is a poor way to look at it. They are beholden to rules and ideals that mortals aren't and possibly can't understand. I don't doubt that some of them are willing to die or sacrifice themselves to save others, but they don't want to die.

What is it you want from the story? The game to start, and while you're in the coma for a week you come back and the gods have dealt with the issue because they determined it needed to be done? Then what? You need to go the Mareth's realm and get Cait's sister? Then we need to hear about how the gods should have just gone and done that for you too? I mean, it's just one person missing, can't Mallach just make the effort for one of his followers? Or maybe she isn't a full priestess... Maybe the writer doesn't want to do a story there and wants to keep it in Savarra.

I am positive the gods will play a role in the story, but it has to hinge on the Champ being there and driving the plot. The same reason Kasyrra doesn't do some things until the Champ shows up. Take all the time you want, Kasyrra isn't going to activate the portal until you arrive, Alyssa isn't giving birth until then. Lumia may be constantly challenging the Wraith entity in her domain, but the conclusive battle won't happen until you, the player, are there.

Damn, gods are unlikable bunch.
So are people. Do you dislike Keros more than Mallach? Do you dislike Velun more than Lumia? Velun isn't even supposed to make an appearance at all, does that mean Lumia or Keros is more deserving of scorn because she does show up and offer you tangible aid? Just because they don't solve all your problems and 'win the game' for you? Or maybe they just need to show up and make you powerful enough to win the game? Are the Seven worse than Mareth's gods who were destroyed or driven out by Mareth's forces? Are the Seven worse than... any other gods that might have been in Savarra before them and vanished or weren't around when needed... or the Wyld Trees that told their followers to just 'give up' basically?

Mallach has literally raised an army and formed a crusade in the land where he holds the most sway. He has sent scouts ahead and is marching across the continent for you to face the demon threat But it's not going to arrive until the Champ moves the story to the point it needs to. You can't just Sleep 8 hours over and over and at Day 1,000 the game ends (good or bad end) because someone else fixed it. He's not going to say, "We'll arrive on day 800, so... you can keep doing the quest...or just... go have sex or whatever. Who cares, you don't matter at this point, it'll get resolved."

Why didn't someone else find Ashlander and then go on a quest to free her so you don't have to? Why didn't Starstone lead all her people on a crusade to oust Tollus' cult from the underwater ruins? Why didn't Evergreen and Komari and Carmen all just decide they were being foolish and get together and solve all the regions problems by working together? Both the leaders of the Marked Mercenaries and the Kervus Orc Tribe arrived because they learned of a coming threat and they wished to crush it (for personal glory, but still). But they didn't even though if Kasyrra or her demosn showed up they would have fought tooth and nail (and probably lost). They can all be considered an unlikeable bunch too, but they're all ostensibly against outright evil acts (probably) and Kasyrra. Instead, they help or offer advice or require the Champ to influence or convince/remind them that they have a duty going beyond their little domains.

Why didn't someone else go and help Cait when she showed up so you could just keep drinking and not get involved? Oh, that's right, that was an option and Garth and Cait were never seen again and Kasyrra won (bad end), because the story, the game, and the writer don't want a story about you being some guy just banging guests in the inn while the story is solved by NPCs, even the gods.
 
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Karakara

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Do not introduce the gods to begin with then? The thing with having this all powerful pantheon in game that does nothing is that it will bring into question how important our quest is. If they are so capable of killing Kas with just a poof of their farts, it does make the in game conflict feel artificial. More so then Kad simply letting us roam free did.

This does make original CoC seem like a more though out game in retrospect compared to it's sequel. Which is funny.

But the game isn't finished yet. The conflict still wasn't entirely cleared. So I will just wait.
 

Ace Hangman

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The thing with having this all powerful pantheon in game that does nothing is that it will bring into question how important our quest is.
This is what is so confusing. You keep calling the Seven all-powerful. They are gods. They could smite you, just like Kasyrra could smite you. Just like Sigrune could smite you on all but their worst day or you save-scumming and reloading for them to roll a Natural 1 on their attack roll. They are like King Kong, a god to a people because they are beyond the cares and being affected by all but the most impactful actions. A god that fights back other monsters and creatures that kill with little concern, but they don't ask why King Kong doesn't stop the storm around the island, or why he doesn't teach them to make really sharp spears to kill the giant dinosaurs so they can do it themselves or why he doesn't kill all the mosquitos biting them with a mighty clap of their hands. Yes, Kasyrra is a threat, but she isn't necessarily going around killing masses of people. Even the imp spawn are mostly just beating people up to bang them unless they're attacked themselves. Some people getting corrupted, so they are concerned, but they're also fighting back incursions from Wraiths and worse creatures beyond Savarra that will kill with no conscience.

Different gods do different things. Sorra might be able to stop a storm, but complaining Mallach isn't a god because he doesn't do it or calling Keros uncaring because he doesn't make all the crop yields for every farmer into a bountiful harvest no matter how lazy or inept they were doesn't prove they're stupid. In fact, Keros is more likely to blight the crops of lazy or inept followers (to teach a lesson, not to be a dick).

They aren't all powerful, I don't know where you get this concept. CoC 1 and CoC 2 are very clear that gods can be driven off, killed, and even consumed or trapped. You're calling CoC 1 better thought-out for going one route (the gods were defeated by a demon), but conveniently ignoring that aspect for a location that does have gods (where they can be defeated by a demon). Maybe the Seven are smarter than Mareth's gods, who probably proudly and vainly thought they could just swat a threat without trusting in their followers or their Champions. That doesn't make them stupid or uncaring. It is fine for a character in the game to think gods are immensely powerful, but you don't pray to Tira for a good wind to sail upon and you don't call on Mallach to summon the creatures of the forest to aid you.
If they are so capable of killing Kas with just a poof of their farts, it does make the in game conflict feel artificial.
Who is telling you this? Some NPC in game? NPCs can have mistaken points-of-view. But actual fact from game history shows that gods can die. It's written in the conflict of the elven schism where the Wyld Trees are waning, it's written in Mareth's past, it's probably occurred in Savarra... where some gods just... left or maybe never existed at all or died out. It is shown in actual gameplay, where trying to save you leads to Lumia sacrificing herself and getting killed when you fail to defeat a Wraith and leads to a bad end. Just because it isn't a canon ending doesn't mean it isn't shown to be possible. Lumia could have probably gone on decades more fighting the creature or keeping it contained, but when the Champ arrives and she decides to help, the outcome is very possible that she dies horribly because you fail and she tries to save you (she does, but you ultimately become a servant of the Wraith entity).

You're claiming that the gods have to step in and help you and everyone else with every problem, otherwise it isn't a real problem or quest. That's like saying, "Because the gods didn't come down and smite my mate's killer, it's clearly not important for anyone to bring him to justice. I shouldn't even try and find them."
or
"Oh, a god didn't send a swarm of Valkyries or show up herself to clear my ancestral home of Dracia from occupation? I guess my quest and dream of seeing it free is all artificial! No need to hunt down the demon-queen that foolishly allied with Kasyrra to have an heir and squandered the city treasury and lead to the death of almost all nobles in the city! Surely an all-powerful god could hunt down Alissa for me and defeat her. And bring her back unharmed... and put her on trial... and probably serve as prosecutor for the case... since the original one was a noble and died. And then take her to a jail and make some divine cell to hold her... and be in charge of her incarceration... and probably work to reform and redeem her... So I shouldn't even bother! Maybe I can fuck her in the cell afterwards though as a reward for all my... complaining about how long it took."
More so then Kas simply letting us roam free did.
That makes perfect sense. She's ultimately a scientist or researcher or enchanter and inventor. She senses the power and potential in your soul. That's why she doesn't outright kill you. She needs you (or your soul specifically) to grow in experience and power. You can't do that in a cage or sexual slavery. She needs you to go out and face challenges (obviously she doesn't want your quest to be to stop her goals, or at least not be successful). She doesn't care if you crush Tollus and his cult. She gives you the Waystone Amulet because she knows traveling the Ways will empower you and subtly change you. She wants you strong so you can help her and be her partner. There's plenty of bad ends (again, not canon as the actual outcome, but that doesn't mean they aren't true in what they reveal) where Kasyrra takes over the world and defeats the gods and has all their power, but it isn't what she wanted. "It wasn't supposed to be this way."
So she clearly can beat the Seven (we don't know the method, maybe with more portals, more dragon daughters getting brought through, Tollus working under the radar because the Seven focus on Kasyrra instead of him subverting everyone in their cities, or finding enough old magical artifacts). The gods need to rely on their Champions (even making the Champ one of them) and the people of Savarra working together. And they are gathering support, just in their lands and powerbases. The Champ is doing it in the Marches and Lumia is helping the Champ in there. She was just distracted with an immensely powerful Wraith draining her powers until very recently.
 
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Karakara

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It is matter of how much convinience/excuse tolerance you can handle. Once you introduce the concept of the gods are all powerfull (or as all powerfull as the setting allows it), and that the only reason that they have not striken down Kas or the cult is because they feel like it, it is up to the reader to see if they are going to buy through those exuses.

And, on my end, I do not buy.

A lot of your points sound like "well if they kill Kas, there would not be a story to tell." And my answer would be "Yeah, you are right. If they did what I asked of them, the story as it is now could not exist. Which is bad."

To me, it just sounds like the game has driven itself into a corner as to how to make the champs quest seem important.

"Oh they do not consider her a threat." "Oh, they think she can do good." "Oh, they are interested in her findings." Those are exuses that I do not personally buy, and there is so much cockiness as an excuse can, well, excuse. Like, Kas was litterally within their reach, and they let her go. Like, why risk it? Did they learn nothing from wraiths, which demons have a lot common.

To cut story short, this is how I see it: if the gods did not exist, would the story be better for it? I would say yes. Now the threat of Kas and the Cult is exasperated, there is no questioning as to why no one more powerfull is not doing anything and so on and so on.

Edit: In the end, as long as the game makes our victory feel like our victory, I am fine with it.
 
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Ace Hangman

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It's getting a bit off-topic from the thread, which is just about how/why Lumia shows up in the Winter Palace, which is that Lumia doesn't watch every single thing or intervene in every single thing until there's a massive, immediate threat. She's not going to preemptively render a mother sterile or force a miscarriage because she thinks a child might cause complications and threaten the mother's life when childbirth occurs. She'll offer care or healing when the issue actually happens or more likely, send midwives (her Champions) or other healers to be around and try and make the best outcome as possible without her taking a direct hand. Like when the portal opened and actually started spawning an other-worldly threat that actually started killing people and absorbing them, not just making them into sex-hungry participants of a massive royal orgy.
Once you introduce the concept of the gods are all powerfull (or as all powerfull as the setting allows it),
That's the issue. You keep using that as a reason, but no one's said that. No one's introduced any god as all-powerful (even as powerful as the setting allows, which means the same in the setting). They are powerful, but they have rules and ideals and standards. Just because you can't comprehend or 'buy' them doesn't mean their reasons are false, just that you can't understand them.

The U.S.A. ostensibly has an all-powerful military. The largest budget (by far), the largest troops. More guns and weaponry than all the citizens could wield if we had four arms and could fire rectal guns (which are a thing). Ground, sea, and air superiority by a vast margin. Nuclear weaponry (and they've used it), and space satellites and drones and what-have-you. This isn't just patriotic claptrap, it's literally the most massive warmachine since the Roman Empire and would likely wipe out Belhar without magic (or God-intervention). That doesn't mean that just because they don't swoop in and wipe out one side or the other side or both sides in every conflict (be that Isreal and Palestine or Ukraine and Russia or Protestors vs. Columbia University, or the Sinaloa Cartel) that the conflicts are trivial. And they could. They could flatten and glass one or both and it would take the world to stop them (and it might not be possible).
Claiming they have to step in and crush all conflicts shows an inherent lack of understanding of how the world (or 'setting') works and how even all-powerful (or as all-powerful as the current world can be) is just not the ideals and principles that the USA has set forth for itself to continue to exist in the manner that it's followers have deemed it should act.

Does that mean it doesn't care or isn't involved? No, it is involved, almost too involved in some cases. Sometimes when it does get involved... things get worse before they get better. And we know that! Because even being immensely powerful, you can still fuck up or half-ass it. Suddenly claiming every other countries' problems and issues aren't worth a damn or consideration if the USA doesn't step in or that the USA isn't as frightening a military machine because they opt not to glass every country that causes them inconvenience is as silly as what you're saying about the Seven.

Khor'minos is as all-powerful a nation in both culture and might that has ever been seen since the Belharan Empire, probably even its equal if not in expansion, but you may as well be saying, "Well if they aren't going to march out and deal with the demons, it's not really a threat." It is a threat, but they can't be stupid about it. They can lose and they can lose big, and if they lose it will likely fuck it up for the rest of the world in the long run without them.

How do you picture the scene going if a god showed up immediately when Kasyrra first appears. Following the story, Mallach is the first god you likely run into. Cait and her sister are followers so he gets involved. Lumia is the next most logical but she is undeniably distracted with an 'all-powerful' Wraith threat currently. How do you see the scene going with Mallach showing up with his... I don't remember what his divine weapon is... I'm sure it's impressive. He's ready to fight and kill. He's ready to die trying and sacrifice himself to save you and Cait's lives. Ready to drive off this portal-spawned threat of unknown power and possibly with cultist allies in the area against Kasyrra fresh from a portal, pulsing with portal energy and power and wielding her runed axe against Mallach, God of Passion. How do you see that ending?
It ends with there being the Six and the story continuing in about the same way with less Mallach scenes. Or he flees and retreats when he realizes he's about to get destroyed. Otherwise he is ended and she'll likely get even more powerful
No, they watch, they nudge, influence, gather their strength and allies, and offer to aid those who will be their Champion and they only take direct action when it's the right time or circumstance.

It seems like you're really just worried that at the end of the story, Cait or Etheryn's going to be standing at a podium saying, "First of all, I'd like to thank... GOD. All the Gods. All the Seven for being there... and sending the Champ to be there. And making sure the Champ was able to... be there. To document and see... how the Gods solved everything and saved the world. Also... I'd like to thank my agent and writer, Savin... for making the Gods... [silly|and... San Dimas High School Football Rules!]"
 

Karakara

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How do you picture the scene going if a god showed up immediately when Kasyrra first appears
Kill her? Just kill her. The game paints them as way above her in terms of power. Kas is no way descrit. I am just not seeing any pros to gods existing beyond some people wanting to fuck them. They can do that easiliy.

Both Mallach and Lumia had a chance.

Again, CoC, for me. handled its coinflict better.
 
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