Hypotheses Regarding Taint and Tainted Space

[TheShepard256]

So, as one of the more scientifically inclined TiTS fans, I've been thinking about how taint could produce the effects it does, and what the implications of the eponymous but as-yet unimplemented Tainted Space would be. Please note that biology isn't my area of expertise, so don't assume that what I'm about to say is 100% true to real life, and certainly don't assume it's canon unless the devs say it is. Now, on to the actual hypotheses!

Taint is described as a 'corruption' of one's genetic code, implying that a tainted individual's genes differ from an untainted individual's ones. This makes sense, since the two main ways of gaining taint are by using illicit gene mods and by consuming unsafe-to-eat substances while equipped with the same kinds of microsurgeons Steele has. Presumably, both work by inserting new genes into the user's genome; I propose that sufficiently long strings of inserted genes is what causes taint.
According to an episode of SciShow I watched a while ago, two studies have combined all 16 chromosomes in yeast's genome into one or two chromosomes, and those with larger chromosomes were less fit than those with normal ones. If that holds for larger organisms like us, then the kinds of long genomes that the above sources of taint would give could reduce the fitness of tainted individual's cells, which could lead their bodies to believe that their reproductive fitness is lowered compared to non-tainted individuals. Then, since the whole point of life is to propagate itself, the body counters this apparent reduction in reproductive fitness by increasing its desire to reproduce i.e. increasing libido, which is the first symptom of taint. According to the CODEX:

Very high levels of taint have been known to cause sexual mania, delusions of grandeur, extreme fetishes, and uncontrolled genetic mutation.

I propose that these are due to the levels of taint getting so high that it impacts the normal cell division process, resulting in damage to cells and/or the genome itself. The genome damage causes the uncontrolled genetic mutation and probably resistance to the effects of future gene mods, while the other symptoms are due to minor brain damage (which is known to affect one's personality and behaviours). Both of these could, given enough time, result in the same major bodily havoc that killed Victor Steele.
Steele's microsurgeons reducing taint over time probably comes about by trimming off excess genes that don't do anything, shortening the length of their genome and thus directly countering the source of taint's effects. Similarly, legally available gene mods don't cause taint gain because they only insert the minimum number of genes necessary to produce their desired effects, then subsequently removing the genes that were overwritten by the mod, leaving the genome length more-or-less the same as before.

(Takes a minute to catch my breath)

As far as we know, Tainted Space is a region of space infested by microsurgeons that cause random mutations in whatever life is present within it. Assuming these microsurgeons work similarly to Steele's, this would indeed result in large amounts of taint (especially if the microsurgeons don't have the capabilities to reduce taint); however, the real effects come from the implications that constantly changing genomes would have on life that previously evolved via natural selection.
Since genes are no longer fixed across an individual's lifespan, the quality of a potential partner's genes is no longer a relevant factor. Picking a partner with high-quality genes is what drives pretty much every courtship display and mating system in the natural world; without those, one might as well try breeding with whatever one can breed with and see what sticks. This would especially be the case if the constant mutations resulted in much higher than normal mortality rates (which is a real possibility, since IRL genetic mutations are more often harmful than not), making parental investment (and thus stable relationships) not worth it because:

• The resources I'm investing in my offspring would be wasted if they die before they get to reproduce, which is a significant possibility given such high mortality rates, and
• If a lot of my offspring are going to die before reproducing, then I'd better produce as many offspring as possible to maximise the number that will survive long enough to reproduce. Investing in my offspring takes resources I could be using to produce more offspring, so I'd better not invest in my offspring any more than I have to.

These reasons wouldn't work on species whose offspring require large amounts of parental investment to survive until they can become independent, but such long developmental times would almost certainly be outcompeted by fast-developing offspring in this scenario. This would result in a universal preference for quantity of offspring over quality, since the latter is now a non-concern.
The end result is a situation where everything is trying to fuck everything else with reckless abandon, which actually fits quite well with how sexual the TiTS universe is. Most encounters Steele has with Tainted Space locals are probably going to be said locals trying to fuck Steele; not that it wasn't like that before, but Tainted Space will probably take it up to 11.

(Takes another minute to re-catch my breath)

So, that's that. It's a lot, but I like thinking about these sorts of things.

 

[ScarletteKnight]

I won't dispute theories, but I will make corrections.

Gene editing doesn't add or subtract anything, it replaces a specific code with another.

And most mutations are actually not harmful in any way, the most common example being red hair. There are less people born with red hair than intersex, about 1.3% vs 1.6% if I remember.

 

[Evil]

I would also say that the microsurgeons aren't exactly trimming excess DNA or the like, but rather they have a copy of Captain Steele's original genetic code and are trying to keep that intact and under control.

 

[TheShepard256]

Gene editing doesn't add or subtract anything, it replaces a specific code with another.

From what I understand of modern gene editing tech such as CRISPR/CAS-9, either the desired genes are inserted into the genome or target genes have extra bits inserted into them in order to mask them; either way, the entirety of the original code is still there, it's just that the new bits change what a portion of that code does. I assumed gene mods in TiTS operated on the same basis, at least for the parts before removing unused genes to lose/prevent taint.

And most mutations are actually not harmful in any way, the most common example being red hair. There are less people born with red hair than intersex, about 1.3% vs 1.6% if I remember.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that mutations are harmful more often than they are beneficial, so increasing mutation rates without changing the ratio of harmful to beneficial mutations would result in a higher mortality rate. Harmless mutations wouldn't affect that. Still, thanks for pointing that out; as I said, I'm not an expert at biology.

I would also say that the microsurgeons aren't exactly trimming excess DNA or the like, but rather they have a copy of Captain Steele's original genetic code and are trying to keep that intact and under control.

While Steele's microsurgeons do contain a copy of their original genome, I don't think the same can necessarily be said of the cells in Steele's body, especially if they're heavily modded. I'm proposing that the microsurgeons are trimming excess DNA in Steele's (or whoever's) cells; the genome stored in the microsurgeons is untouched by both this and any gene mods Steele may use, and doesn't factor into taint at all. I'm not 100% certain what point you're trying to make, so if I haven't addressed it, please elaborate.

 

[ScarletteKnight]

From what I understand of modern gene editing tech such as CRISPR/CAS-9, either the desired genes are inserted into the genome or target genes have extra bits inserted into them in order to mask them; either way, the entirety of the original code is still there, it's just that the new bits change what a portion of that code does. I assumed gene mods in TiTS operated on the same basis, at least for the parts before removing unused genes to lose/prevent taint.

As simply as I can think to say, CRISPR allows us to cut out and replace a section with a modified section, which is then Trojan Horse'd into some cells, and essentially functions as a virus that your body believes is part of you and thus doesn't fight, allowing your body to replicate the modified DNA instead of your original. It's actually based on something real viruses can do, it's really neat.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that mutations are harmful more often than they are beneficial, so increasing mutation rates without changing the ratio of harmful to beneficial mutations would result in a higher mortality rate. Harmless mutations wouldn't affect that. Still, thanks for pointing that out; as I said, I'm not an expert at biology.

But most mutations are extremely normal things that most people don't think of when they hear the word "mutation". It's not all Sloth from The Goonies, it's completely regular people who don't even realize it, like the 8% of people with blue or green eyes. Weird coloration is one thing, (gingers, albinism, etc), but if you can't wiggle your ears then that's a mutation, if you're not lactose intolerant then that's a mutation, if you're balding it's a mutation, if you never grew wisdom teeth it's a mutation, there are so many that huge percentages of the population have.

 

[TheShepard256]

As simply as I can think to say, CRISPR allows us to cut out and replace a section with a modified section, which is then Trojan Horse'd into some cells, and essentially functions as a virus that your body believes is part of you and thus doesn't fight, allowing your body to replicate the modified DNA instead of your original. It's actually based on something real viruses can do, it's really neat.

All right, I'll concede that point for the real-life aspects. In TiTS however: perhaps legal gene mods are based upon a more advanced version of that, while illegal gene mods and microsurgeon adaptations work the way I described, and that's why the latter two cause taint while the former doesn't.

But most mutations are extremely normal things that most people don't think of when they hear the word "mutation". It's not all Sloth from The Goonies, it's completely regular people who don't even realize it, like the 8% of people with blue or green eyes. Weird coloration is one thing, (gingers, albinism, etc), but if you can't wiggle your ears then that's a mutation, if you're not lactose intolerant then that's a mutation, if you're balding it's a mutation, if you never grew wisdom teeth it's a mutation, there are so many that huge percentages of the population have.

You're talking about things that started out as mutations, but since most of them are more-or-less harmless, they've survived to the point where I don't think we can properly consider them to be mutations anymore. I'm talking about new mutations arising, which have the potential to change cell functions, protein synthesis etc. in ways that can be neutral or beneficial, but are more likely to be harmful (e.g. genetic diseases, some cancers, cell death). According to the Wikipedia article on mutations, harmful mutations are generally more common than neutral ones, with beneficial ones being least common.

Then again, the microsurgeons in Tainted Space aren't necessarily mutating genes randomly like nature does; they could be programmed such that they confer harmful mutations upon their victims at a much lower rate (possibly never), in which case higher mortality rates would be less applicable.

 

[ShySquare]

According to the Wikipedia article on mutations, harmful mutations are generally more common than neutral ones, with beneficial ones being least common

Speaking as someone who used to study biology, iirc harmful mutations aren't more common than neutral ones, they're just easier to observe. Like, if there isn't any difference in phenotype, who cares that you have an A instead of a C in a specific nucleotide sequence ? But if changing one nucleotide in a sequence makes your skin peel off constantly, obviously it'll be studied and classified.
Plus, not all harmful mutations are equally harmful, it's a spectrum.

Then again, the microsurgeons in Tainted Space aren't necessarily mutating genes randomly like nature does

Steele's microsurgeon don't mutate dna randomly, they're probably connected to a database with useful genes and alleles (maybe stored in the Codex?) and change Steele's genes only when necessary.
They also probably correct any spontaneous mutation in Steele's genome, so... Steele'll never get cancer and will age very well ?


The way I see it, Steele's microsurgeons could use CRISPR-like mechanisms, or they could modify Steele's genes on an epigenetic level (ie by allowing or inhibiting the expression of certain genes), or a mix of the two.
They should only change the alleles of the genes though, not the structure of the whole genome.

Or, since we don't know when exactly the TiTS'venture takes place, we could imagine that everyone now has an additionnal pair of artificial chromosomes that is used for cosmetic changes and can be easily reset.

Taint would be how doctors quantify bad interractions between the genes you were born with and the ones you modded on yourself (like what happens when you take incompatible medications).
Ex: Gene A codes for protein 1, B codes for protein 2. On their own, both proteins are fine and useful. But if Steele takes a tf that allows them to meet , they stick together and form the protein 12, which is poisonous.
Their microsurgeons neutralize 12, but a byproduct of this is an increased libido and eventually psychological side-effects.
Taint decreases over time bc the microsurgeons eventually figure out how to efficiently keep protein 1 and protein 2 from sticking together.

 

[TheShepard256]

Speaking as someone who used to study biology, iirc harmful mutations aren't more common than neutral ones, they're just easier to observe. Like, if there isn't any difference in phenotype, who cares that you have an A instead of a C in a specific nucleotide sequence ? But if changing one nucleotide in a sequence makes your skin peel off constantly, obviously it'll be studied and classified.
Plus, not all harmful mutations are equally harmful, it's a spectrum.

Don't know if true or not, true, true, true and true. My point was that harmful mutations are more common than beneficial ones, which in Tainted Space conditions will likely lead to higher mortality rates.

Steele's microsurgeon don't mutate dna randomly, they're probably connected to a database with useful genes and alleles (maybe stored in the Codex?) and change Steele's genes only when necessary.

By "the microsurgeons in Tainted Space", I meant "the microsurgeons that caused Tainted Space to be declared as such", not Steele's microsurgeons. The former mutate DNA if not randomly, then at least without a specific goal in mind, while the latter definitely only change Steele's genes when necessary.
I also find it difficult to believe that Steele's microsurgeons would have access to complete genetic information on every single one of the newly-discovered Rush species that they can turn themself into by eating whatever, especially given the number of events (mostly involving Xenogen) that rely on not having such information. I was imagining that, when Steele eats such a thing, their microsurgeons were pretty much guessing at what the relevant species' genes are based on all the information available to them (such as what Steele's eating and any information in the Codex), then implementing that guess as best they can.

They also probably correct any spontaneous mutation in Steele's genome, so... Steele'll never get cancer and will age very well ?

That's probably also how Steele will be able to avoid getting TF'd while in Tainted Space.

The way I see it, Steele's microsurgeons could use CRISPR-like mechanisms, or they could modify Steele's genes on an epigenetic level (ie by allowing or inhibiting the expression of certain genes), or a mix of the two.
They should only change the alleles of the genes though, not the structure of the whole genome.

Given the wide variety of TFs available, definitely not epigenetics alone. Obviously, you'd have to insert genes for things that your DNA doesn't code for; leaving the rest of the genome unchanged, though, is a very good idea.

Or, since we don't know when exactly the TiTS'venture takes place, we could imagine that everyone now has an additionnal pair of artificial chromosomes that is used for cosmetic changes and can be easily reset.

Presumably, this additional set of chromosomes is the one targeted by all gene mods, including taint-inducing ones, leaving the original set unchanged? If that were the case, I don't think Victor would've been in such dire straits from all the taint he suffered, since he could've just shed that additional set and gone back to the original set. Nor would Steele's microsurgeons containing a copy of their original genome from birth be such a big deal.
I don't think it would make much sense to have such an additional set, anyways. Not everyone wants to get modded, and most of those who do would only have access to safe mods and probably aren't too concerned about much beyond whether the mods work and are safe to use. Any scenarios that would warrant an additional set would be too rare to be worth implementing across the entire galactic population. It also doesn't seem like something that would evolve naturally in just a few millennia (given backstory stuff, I estimate the UGC forms ~1,000 years + maybe a few centuries in the future, with TiTS occurring circa 3,027 A.C. (After Confederation)).

Taint would be how doctors quantify bad interractions between the genes you were born with and the ones you modded on yourself (like what happens when you take incompatible medications).
Ex: Gene A codes for protein 1, B codes for protein 2. On their own, both proteins are fine and useful. But if Steele takes a tf that allows them to meet , they stick together and form the protein 12, which is poisonous.
Their microsurgeons neutralize 12, but a byproduct of this is an increased libido and eventually psychological side-effects.
Taint decreases over time bc the microsurgeons eventually figure out how to efficiently keep protein 1 and protein 2 from sticking together.

That would imply that high taint results in lowered health. The bolded part in particular implies that increased libido and psychological effects only manifest in the presence of corrective microsurgeons, which relatively few people possess. If either or both of these were true, I think they'd be important enough to be stated in taint's Codex entry, which they aren't. The last part is entirely reasonable, though.

 

[Theron]

Gene mods seem to be a more mature technology now than when Victor was making his fortune (`200 years ago), or even when Captain Steele was concieved. I'm pretty sure this

“What’s this?” The mining magnate asks, looking downward. “...A list of specialized treatments?”

“Sort of,” the doctor explains, “One of the things we can do is work a special tweak into your successor’s genome; something that will give them a special gift, even beyond the choices you’ve made thus far.”

“Are they safe?”

“Perfectly - so long as only one is inserted into your child’s genome. Any more than that risks instability. Perhaps by the time your child is an adult, we’ll have made more advances in that area. For now, though, one’s the limit.”

(emphasis mine)
refers to the perks you can get from gene mods.

Interestingly, the Treatment grants several perks and predates Warp Gate travel (and causes Taint). It's also never been reverse-engineered.

That would imply that high taint results in lowered health.

Given that Victor's (early!) death is heavily implied to outright stated to be the result of his 'near record levels of Taint', suggests that it does, in the long run.

It may be notable that Captain Steele's offspring (if any) are always based off of the original appearance. Presumably Steele's microsurgeons don't affect the gonads, and commercially available mods (mostly?) don't either. The Treatment doesn't seem to, or it wouldn't be necessary for natives to take it. The microbots in Tainted Space may not be so considerate, however.

We also don't know how long Space has been Tainted. If it's recent, the evolutionary pressure won't have been as great.

Here's a question:
How do the Mindwash Visor and Dong Designer increase Taint?

 

[TheShepard256]

Gene mods seem to be a more mature technology now than when Victor was making his fortune (`200 years ago), or even when Captain Steele was concieved. I'm pretty sure this

“What’s this?” The mining magnate asks, looking downward. “...A list of specialized treatments?”

“Sort of,” the doctor explains, “One of the things we can do is work a special tweak into your successor’s genome; something that will give them a special gift, even beyond the choices you’ve made thus far.”

“Are they safe?”

“Perfectly - so long as only one is inserted into your child’s genome. Any more than that risks instability. Perhaps by the time your child is an adult, we’ll have made more advances in that area. For now, though, one’s the limit.”

(emphasis mine)
refers to the perks you can get from gene mods.

Interestingly, the Treatment grants several perks and predates Warp Gate travel (and causes Taint). It's also never been reverse-engineered.

I'm not certain which point you're responding to here. I've no doubt that gene mod tech has advanced over the years prior to TiTS, but I don't quite know how it factors in to this discussion.
That quote specifically refers to the perks Steele can start with, and character creation is currently the only way to get any of those perks without save editing. According to comments in the source code, JimT rewrote it that way incase Steele eventually gets the option to gain one or more of those perks during their adventures; there's no guarantee such an option will become available (note the 'perhaps' at the start of the bolded sentence). Those specific perks probably take a lot more genetic engineering than your standard gene mods, which would explain why having more than one would risk instability without sufficiently advanced tech; other perks obtainable from gene mods probably don't have the same risks. Note that not all perks are equal, they are not all positive and not all are connected to gene mods.
Also, reverse-engineering the Treatment is probably so hard because

Only 20 percent of the Treatment’s composition is publicly available. Researching or distributing information on the other 80 percent is illegal without express dispensation from the Office of Galactic Affairs.... It is widely theorized that U.G.C. scientists have worked with New Texan scientists to improve the Treatment and conceal the exact nature of its mechanisms from prying eyes.

Given that Victor's (early!) death is heavily implied to outright stated to be the result of his 'near record levels of Taint', suggests that it does, in the long run.

I was under the impression that Victor's ridiculously high levels of taint meant anti-aging treatments eventually stopped working on him, causing him to die of old age rather than taint itself.

It may be notable that Captain Steele's offspring (if any) are always based off of the original appearance. Presumably Steele's microsurgeons don't affect the gonads, and commercially available mods (mostly?) don't either. The Treatment doesn't seem to, or it wouldn't be necessary for natives to take it. The microbots in Tainted Space may not be so considerate, however.

Actually, as far as I can tell:

• Many of Steele's kids have a 50% chance of inheriting colours for certain traits (eyes, skin, hair, fur etc.) based on what the relevant colour is for Steele at the time of conception, rather than what they were at Steele's birth (note that the latter isn't tracked in any way). Nope, I was completely wrong on this.
• Pregnancies with ausar parents seem to produce full ausars if Steele is currently an ausar or half-ausar, and half-ausars otherwise, regardless of Steele's initial race.
• Aina's children after the first have a 25% chance each of having equine ears and equine tails when they're born, regardless of Steele's race and despite the fact that Aina was born pure human.
• Both Amma and Reaha mention being born with horns as a side-effect of New Texans using the Treatment for so long.
• Kelly explicitly states that she inherited a quad-balls mod her father took before she was conceived.

So gene mods can affect the user's sperm and ova and thus be at least partially heritable, even if they're not intended to.
You're probably right about the inconsiderateness of the Tainted Space microsurgeons. I wouldn't be surprised if they performed some of their mutations in utero.

We also don't know how long Space has been Tainted. If it's recent, the evolutionary pressure won't have been as great.

It's not that the pressure would be less, just that said pressure wouldn't have had as much time to do its work. Still, I get what you mean.

Here's a question:
How do the Mindwash Visor and Dong Designer increase Taint?

Since Steele (who has microsurgeons) gains taint whenever they use the Mindwash Visor while Celise and Shekka (who don't) don't seem to suffer any long-term effects when they use it, I'd say it causes microsurgeon-based taint (which up until now was ignored in this discussion); if it can project directly into your mind, it's also probably capable of corrupting your microsurgeon's programming a little.
As for the Dong Designer, it might be a side-effect of the microsurgeons it uses to reshape the user's penis; could be genetic taint, microsurgeon taint or both. (I presume it uses microsurgeons because reshaping or duplicating the user's penis is almost certainly a process that's way too complicated for anything else I know of to perform.) Standard Dong Designers may or may not cause taint, but the ones Steele can use were either dumped on Tarkus or possibly jailbroken by pirates, so there's a good chance that something screw-y's going on with those particular machines.

 

[Theron]

Your main topic is about Tainted Space, but we've got a subtopic of Taint and microsurgeons in general, if I'm reading it right.

Victor Steele notably survived near record levels of taint, though cutting-edge medical treatments helped him to keep his symptoms to a minimum after his early successes in the 13th Galactic Rush.

Suggests very high levels of Taint are usually fatal.

You don’t know why anti-agathic treatments stopped working on him. Worse, he aged far more rapidly than he should have, losing his youth in a short decade.

The funeral is closed casket with no viewing, which is expected given the shape Dad was in the last time you saw him. His body was riddled with the lines of age and marked with liver spots and pre-cancerous lumps, and he didn’t want to be remembered that way.

The anti-aging treatments no longer working was probably because of Taint, as you suggested, and I believe his rapid decline also was. He was also described as using gene-mods to remain human in appearance and Steele Tech's Biomedical Division developed Terran Treats (Humana+) at his order.
(Interestingly, the forum spell checker does not recognize agathic, nor does Dictionary.com)

I wasn't aware of the inherited mods. Inheriting modded hair, fur, and eye color is probably the weirdest if you used the targeted mods (the dye at Shear Beauty, Rainbow Gaze, Pickmentation), since I wouldn't think the would affect sperm/ova. Fur and skin, maybe if you've got external testicles, but hair and eyes?

We don't know if Celice and Shekka gain any long term effects. Especially Shekka, who is infertile and from one of the sluttiest races in the galaxy, in her words.

Given random mutations, I wouldn't expect actual TFs in Tainted Space, just lots of Taint. An actual TF would require semi-random mutations (by area, rather than by cell and/or chosen from a list of effects rather than random replacements). Hopefully, by the time we're in Tainted Space, there's a more efficient way of reducing Taint than 1 every 3 days.

Actual TFs are incredibly complex, if you think about what is required. Reshaping existing structures (Plantigrade->Digitigrade legs, changes to iris shape, etc), promoting extremely rapid cell growth/division (new limbs), or both. There's also clearly some brain alteration to allow control of wings/tails/prehensile tongues/whatever else.

 

[TheShepard256]

Your main topic is about Tainted Space, but we've got a subtopic of Taint and microsurgeons in general, if I'm reading it right.

True, but I was wondering why you were bringing perks specifically into the discussion.

Victor Steele notably survived near record levels of taint, though cutting-edge medical treatments helped him to keep his symptoms to a minimum after his early successes in the 13th Galactic Rush.

Suggests very high levels of Taint are usually fatal.

Ah, I must've forgotten about that. I've no problems with high taint causing health problems, I just thought such problems would be a bit more prominent in the Codex entry.

Inheriting modded hair, fur, and eye color is probably the weirdest if you used the targeted mods (the dye at Shear Beauty, Rainbow Gaze, Pickmentation), since I wouldn't think the would affect sperm/ova. Fur and skin, maybe if you've got external testicles, but hair and eyes?

I know, and the only in-universe explanation I can possibly think of for that is that they were deliberately designed to be inheritable, which doesn't make much sense, at least from the perspective that making them heritable would only make them more expensive to produce, increasing their cost and likely reducing profit margins. Out-of-universe, it's because the only aspects of character creation that are currently tracked in-game are initial race, affinity, upbringing and class (and technically starter perk, since although it's not explicitly tracked they can't be removed and there's no other way to get any of them), meaning that the game only has Steele's current appearance to work off of.

We don't know if Celice and Shekka gain any long term effects. Especially Shekka, who is infertile and from one of the sluttiest races in the galaxy, in her words.

I was making this assumption based off the fact that, as far as I can tell, their interactions with pretty much everyone and everything don't change no matter how much they've used the Mindwash Visor, when presumably their taint would max out after no more than 100 uses. I'm pretty sure they don't mention anything like the strange, twisting sensation Steele feels once they've gained a small amount of taint. Their in-game libido and/or taint scores certainly aren't increased each time they use it (not that those scores matter too much given how NPC interactions are coded). As for each individual:
Celise starts out with a libido of 100 and there are no events that would seem to give her more libido (I'm pretty sure taint gain only increases libido if the latter falls below its new minimum), so I guess it would make sense that her interactions don't change. Since she's a galotian, taint might not affect her in the same way it does to non-goos (or even gooified Steeles, given that a goo-morph or galotian Steele still reproduces the same way as they did before). So, we don't know if taint would produce visible effects on her.
Shekka, on the other hand, starts with only 30 libido, meaning that if she maxed out her taint her libido would be more than tripled, which would almost certainly change how she'd interact with others. I also don't think her infertility would affect how her body responds to taint, since a) Steele can also be infertile and not respond to taint any differently than if they were fertile, and b) she's not entirely infertile; she can impregnate Steele if she's given a cock. So if she did experience a lot of taint (like, 45+), I think we'd know about it.

Given random mutations, I wouldn't expect actual TFs in Tainted Space, just lots of Taint. An actual TF would require semi-random mutations (by area, rather than by cell and/or chosen from a list of effects rather than random replacements). Hopefully, by the time we're in Tainted Space, there's a more efficient way of reducing Taint than 1 every 3 days.

I did kind of assume they were mutating randomly, but if those microsurgeons were actually corrupted versions of the same types that are used in commercial gene mods, then actual TFs from their mutations would be much more likely. Savin has said that there will be no unavoidable forced TFs, so presumably Steele's microsurgeons protect them from this to a high enough degree that they can explore Tainted Space without getting TF'd for at least a few hours at a time (so long as Steele subsequently takes enough downtime to 'recharge' whatever is used to protect them), if not indefinitely. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the devs come up with, which doesn't look like it's going to happen in the foreseeable future.

Actual TFs are incredibly complex, if you think about what is required. Reshaping existing structures (Plantigrade->Digitigrade legs, changes to iris shape, etc), promoting extremely rapid cell growth/division (new limbs), or both. There's also clearly some brain alteration to allow control of wings/tails/prehensile tongues/whatever else.

True, though it makes me wonder why most denizens of the TiTS universe can't effectively use extra arms, since they're limbs and thus have the same basic bone structure and presumably neural pathways as legs and some types of wings. I know that out-of-universe, it's to make one less variable writers have to account for (of which there are already more than most actually take into account), but in-universe, I have no idea.

 

[Theron]

The perks was as support for the idea that gene-modding is more advanced, when you could only have one before, you can have as many as TFs that don't actively remove the others. 'Perks' being shorthand for fairly complex effects.

Also, with an unarticulated assertion that the mods Victor was using in his heyday probably caused a lot more Taint than the current ones, which is why he had so much of it. We don't really know if the newer mods have more finesse or if they use a different method entirely.

Shekka's infertility means her offspring won't show any taint, which is the other possible indicator, but you're right about the horsecock. Do Steele's offspring show any changes at 100% Taint?

I'm of the view that writers won't add Taint effects unless they have a specific vision in mind. Because it'd be a ton of work for questionable gain. How much changes if you get Shekka addicted to your saliva? I'm pretty sure it isn't much.

There's also the difference between high libido and a willingness to have sex with just anyone. Shekka is implied to be in love with Captain Steele after finishing her quest* and so may not be as interested in with sex with others. She also has a vibrator in her tail, so she can take care of herself even easier if she needs to. Interestingly, during her Robot competition in her shop, she can instantly lose if it's been long enough since she had sex with Steele. And Focus Pills are a thing, and cheap.
*Anno teases Shekka with the accusation if you're already sleeping with her when you recruit Shekka. Shekka doesn't deny it.

Inheritable modded Hair, Fur, Eye and Skin color: Maybe to reinforce the parent-child bond? I could see issues with a child who is sure they're adopted because they look nothing like their parents. Of course, it's so easy to mod (eye and hair is cheap, fur is somewhat more expensive, skin is a lot more expensive), that may not make much of a difference if one or both parents modded themselves after conception and before birth.

Did you ever see the last episode of Batman Beyond? It's been pointed out that it's impossible for two red-heads to have a child with black hair, let alone two, because red hair is recessive. It was speculated that this was one of the reasons for the divorce of Terry's parents, if Mr. Mcginnis thought his wife cheated on him, and had the DNA evidence to prove it.

Extra Arms: The only thing I can think of is, the real problem is hands, which are a lot more complex. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if a species with monkey-like feet (opposable toes/thumbs) are added with an accompanying TF. With a 'Taur option, just because. Although that might be rejected for the same reason extra arms are.

The kind of mutation we'll see probably depends on what the microsurgeons were programmed to do initially. Were they a city/planet wide modding project gone wrong? Were they released as a form of warfare (change your enemies into something less capable)? Your classic terraforming gray goo that went in an unexpected direction? Something else entirely? Commercial mods seem to do their thing, then shut down or are expended. These microsurgeons continue to affect the afflicted indefinitely.

 

[TheShepard256]

The perks was as support for the idea that gene-modding is more advanced, when you could only have one before, you can have as many as TFs that don't actively remove the others. 'Perks' being shorthand for fairly complex effects.

As I said, not all perks are equal and not all are related to gene mods, so the idea that the number of perks you can have being determined solely by how advanced gene mod tech is doesn't really hold water. The character creation perks are probably the most complex of the bunch, which is why they're subject to the one-only restriction, but that doesn't apply to other, less complex perks.

Also, with an unarticulated assertion that the mods Victor was using in his heyday probably caused a lot more Taint than the current ones, which is why he had so much of it. We don't really know if the newer mods have more finesse or if they use a different method entirely.

Given that the UGC advises against taint gain, I'd say legally-available mods back in Victor's day would be as taint-free as those of Steele's day, so I don't think that would be a contributing factor. Gene mod tech has been in active use for well over 3,000 years by this point, so I find it unlikely that taint gain in commercial mods would have only been eradicated in the past 200 years; otherwise, there would've been a millennia-long health crisis. And the people who manufacture illegal mods probably either don't care about how much taint their products cause, or actively add taint to their effects; either way, that probably wouldn't cause Victor to gain much more taint than a Steele who took comparable illegal mods.
Immune-boosting microsurgeons are a different story, however; there's no question that Steele's microsurgeons are more advanced than Victor's were (Doctor Lessau confirms this), so Victor's might have caused significantly more taint than Steele's do, either because each individual TF carried more taint gain, there were more sources that would induce TFs*, or both. Speaking of Lessau, he also says that modding oneself as he does would normally scramble one's genome in the same way that Victor's was, but his microsurgeons (which are precursors to Steele's) protect him from that. Since Lessau doesn't strike me as the kind of person to use illegal mods, this seems to imply that even legal mods carry some taint gain with them, it's just that such gain is small enough for Steele's microsurgeons to counter immediately and for people who don't mod themselves constantly to not notice.
*Victor mentions that his microsurgeons caused him to be mutated by alien sexual fluids. Given Victor's lifestyle, that would've contributed a significant amount to his taint.

Shekka's infertility means her offspring won't show any taint, which is the other possible indicator, but you're right about the horsecock. Do Steele's offspring show any changes at 100% Taint?

Steele starts with 0 taint despite their father having near-record levels, which could either indicate that taint is not heritable, or that any taint that Steele would normally have inherited was removed during the designer baby process. Steele's kids don't act any differently based on Steele's taint levels, though that makes sense in either case; if not heritable, because they have none, and if heritable, because they'd be too young for taint's sexual effects to present themselves. There's currently no way to tell which is the case, though.
It might be interesting to note that one of Steele's half-siblings (who wouldn't have had the same taint removal if it's inheritable) has almost as much libido as everyone's favourite puppyslut (50 and 55, respectively), despite Steele starting with a libido of only 3 or 4.

I'm of the view that writers won't add Taint effects unless they have a specific vision in mind. Because it'd be a ton of work for questionable gain. How much changes if you get Shekka addicted to your saliva? I'm pretty sure it isn't much.

True, true and true, though if Steele gets rid of their aphrodisiac saliva, Shekka takes something that seems to neutralise the addiction straight away. Still, when it comes to world-building, what isn't included can be as important as what is included.

There's also the difference between high libido and a willingness to have sex with just anyone. Shekka is implied to be in love with Captain Steele after finishing her quest* and so may not be as interested in with sex with others. She also has a vibrator in her tail, so she can take care of herself even easier if she needs to. Interestingly, during her Robot competition in her shop, she can instantly lose if it's been long enough since she had sex with Steele. And Focus Pills are a thing, and cheap.
*Anno teases Shekka with the accusation if you're already sleeping with her when you recruit Shekka. Shekka doesn't deny it.

Well, she doesn't instantly lose, it just takes less effort to win the longer Steele doesn't have sex with her. That's because Shekka's lust is tracked in the same way as Steele's, and the competition ends when one of the contestants reaches max lust. She'll also refuse to have sex with Steele if her lust is below 33 and she's not on Steele's ship. Higher libido (which would occur if she had higher taint) means her lust would rise faster over time and affect both of those things, which isn't the case.
All true otherwise, though there's no indication that Shekka actually uses Focus Pills.

Inheritable modded Hair, Fur, Eye and Skin color: Maybe to reinforce the parent-child bond? I could see issues with a child who is sure they're adopted because they look nothing like their parents. Of course, it's so easy to mod (eye and hair is cheap, fur is somewhat more expensive, skin is a lot more expensive), that may not make much of a difference if one or both parents modded themselves after conception and before birth.

Did you ever see the last episode of Batman Beyond? It's been pointed out that it's impossible for two red-heads to have a child with black hair, let alone two, because red hair is recessive. It was speculated that this was one of the reasons for the divorce of Terry's parents, if Mr. Mcginnis thought his wife cheated on him, and had the DNA evidence to prove it.

I haven't, but I understand what you're trying to say. I don't think the manufacturers of those mods would care about that too much, though, especially given that differences in eye/skin/hair/fur/scale/etc. colour(s) are (possibly excepting very unusual colours) probably quite minor compared to differences between hybrid children and either of their parents, the common knowledge that gene mods are widely available, and the fact that DNA testing could easily confirm or deny any suspicions regarding relatedness.

Extra Arms: The only thing I can think of is, the real problem is hands, which are a lot more complex. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if a species with monkey-like feet (opposable toes/thumbs) are added with an accompanying TF. With a 'Taur option, just because. Although that might be rejected for the same reason extra arms are.

There's the simii, though they don't have a TF mod (and likely never will, since they were created by JimT and few writers are willing to touch his content. Also what you said).

The kind of mutation we'll see probably depends on what the microsurgeons were programmed to do initially. Were they a city/planet wide modding project gone wrong? Were they released as a form of warfare (change your enemies into something less capable)? Your classic terraforming gray goo that went in an unexpected direction? Something else entirely? Commercial mods seem to do their thing, then shut down or are expended. These microsurgeons continue to affect the afflicted indefinitely.

Your guess is as good as mine. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Doctor Badger was behind it.

 

[Theron]

Just tested Shekka's Robot Competition. Rested several days before hand just to make sure. We didn't even get to the 'choose a button' stage before she lost. I'd call that an instant loss.

If Victor's Taint didn't come from gene-mods (which he indulged in frequently), where did it come from? Penny and Amber (the Dryad) are both implied (or stated) to have a higher sex drive from their gene-mods as a side effect, suggesting Taint. So we can infer that custom mods are prone to Taint, even if the mass-produced mods aren't. And, of course, there are the mods which are illegal, at least in part, because they cause Taint.

“I knew him quite well, yes, though chiefly in the final decades. I first met him some two centuries ago, when I was a student. He came to see my professor, who like myself studied nanomedicine, to acquire his own microsurgeons. They were experimental, far less refined and far less safe than yours, but he made a convincing argument for testing them on the frontier. I remember feeling a sense of power about him that I’ve not seen since...” Lessau trails off, looking you over. “...Though perhaps I see it now.”

The real goal, however, was in a concept I had spent decades drafting and refining, but lacked the funding to develop until Victor’s intervention. With his aid I produced my masterwork: microsurgeons that do more than just protect against known diseases, they adapt, they innovate when faced with the unknown. More importantly, they house within them a full transcript of your original genome from birth. No matter how you alter yourself, no matter what mutations you undergo, you will always be able to return to what you once were.

So he had his own set of persistent microsurgeons, but they only warded off disease, presumably.

The Treatment also causes Taint*, so it's not like all commercially available mods are Taint-free.
*4 points, which is probably covered up by the massive Libido increase.

 

[TheShepard256]

Just tested Shekka's Robot Competition. Rested several days before hand just to make sure. We didn't even get to the 'choose a button' stage before she lost. I'd call that an instant loss.

Ah, I hadn't seen that before now. I was just looking at the code, and assumed Shekka's lust gain over time was capped at 75% max like Steele's was. Apparently not!

If Victor's Taint didn't come from gene-mods (which he indulged in frequently), where did it come from? Penny and Amber (the Dryad) are both implied (or stated) to have a higher sex drive from their gene-mods as a side effect, suggesting Taint. So we can infer that custom mods are prone to Taint, even if the mass-produced mods aren't. And, of course, there are the mods which are illegal, at least in part, because they cause Taint.

“I knew him quite well, yes, though chiefly in the final decades. I first met him some two centuries ago, when I was a student. He came to see my professor, who like myself studied nanomedicine, to acquire his own microsurgeons. They were experimental, far less refined and far less safe than yours, but he made a convincing argument for testing them on the frontier. I remember feeling a sense of power about him that I’ve not seen since...” Lessau trails off, looking you over. “...Though perhaps I see it now.”

The real goal, however, was in a concept I had spent decades drafting and refining, but lacked the funding to develop until Victor’s intervention. With his aid I produced my masterwork: microsurgeons that do more than just protect against known diseases, they adapt, they innovate when faced with the unknown. More importantly, they house within them a full transcript of your original genome from birth. No matter how you alter yourself, no matter what mutations you undergo, you will always be able to return to what you once were.

So he had his own set of persistent microsurgeons, but they only warded off disease, presumably.

Based on this:

“Atta [pc.boyGirl]. I had something like that made for me after a particularly rough infection, though it wound up mutating me from exotic species’ sexual fluids as well.”

A fucking horndog until the end. Of course.

The recording smiles wistfully for a moment before resuming, “I suppose that might have contributed to my demise, but damn, it was worth it. You’ll see for yourself once you get out there.”

I assumed Victor's microsurgeons had transformative functions like Steele's but less advanced, and that's how he got most of his taint (with the rest coming from mods, mostly or entirely illegal/experimental ones). I further assumed these were the same ones he acquired from Lessau's professor. Also, he did say that Victor's were "far less safe" than Steele's, which could imply that they could cause taint even if they didn't have TF functions.
Also, high taint isn't the only way to get high libido; there are quite a few legal mods that don't cause taint gain yet increase the user's libido to pretty high levels (Red/Gold/Orange Pills up to 60, Bovinium/Mino Charge up to 70, Lucifier Candy Apple up to 100), and some characters naturally have high libidos (like Anno, who (Ausar/Huskar Treats aside) I presume is unmodded/untainted and has the same libido as Penny and Amber). It's easily conceivable that even with their mods, Penny and Amber have high libidos without having any significant amount of taint. (This ignores the mods Steele can get them to use, which definitely increase libido and taint.) There still exists the possibility that some legal custom mods cause taint gain, but there's currently no way of confirming or denying that.

The Treatment also causes Taint*, so it's not like all commercially available mods are Taint-free.
*4 points, which is probably covered up by the massive Libido increase.

It's explicitly stated that the Treatment is only legal on New Texas (and only New Texas) because of its cultural significance (though it's heavily implied sexual bribery helps get it passed through periodic reviews). I'd say that aside from edge cases like the Treatment, commercially available mods are required to only produce very small amounts of taint, if not no taint at all.

 

[adev]

Small correction - some of the PC's starting attributes are tracked (PC_BABY) and they are used at least in Zheniya's pregnancies.

Generally I would be wary of trying to derive lore from code. Lore itself can be inconsistent or contradictory but with code you also deal with bugs, oversights, simplifications, outdated code etc.

 

[TheShepard256]

Small correction - some of the PC's starting attributes are tracked (PC_BABY) and they are used at least in Zheniya's pregnancies.

I've just checked, and you're completely right. They're also used for Aina, Briha, Ilaria, Sera and probably all other pregnancies that track those values for Steele's kids. I've strikethrough'd the points invalidated by my being wrong; the other points still remain, though.

Generally I would be wary of trying to derive lore from code. Lore itself can be inconsistent or contradictory but with code you also deal with bugs, oversights, simplifications, outdated code etc.

I'm mostly using the code to either get info I wouldn't be able to access otherwise (e.g. libido scores for relevant characters) or so I can look at scenes and variations with less effort than it would take for me to try getting them in-game (especially if I have to start an entirely new PC). I also like to think I'm pretty good at identifying bugs, oversights etc. in the code while looking at it.

 

[adev]

What I meant was if one pregnancy uses the PC_BABY's attributes and another one uses the current values it could mean that
1) the PC_BABY case is wrong
2) the current attribute case is wrong
3) the pregnancies are supposed to be different
Without something stating the intent either case could be true. (let's ignore the possibility that all could be wrong )
You can always check the code to see what the game does, but that doesn't automatically mean that it was intended or that it makes sense in the game world.

 

[Theron]

On Code not necessarily being the best source:
As another example, when Fenoxo added the option to get a description of enemies in combat, he found that Anno had testicles, because he'd copied Syri's stats and only changed the relevant bits.

On Commercial Taint:
ClearYu and Rubber-Made both cause Taint, and are listed as legal items in the Codex. Also, while the Treatment is only available on New Texas, they sell it very cheaply to visitors. See: Ogram and Cass.

 

[Kesil]

If I remember correctly, Ogram took the Treatment to live with Amma. He wasn't just passing by. I haven't read Cass' story in a while, so I don't remember if it was just that readily available for her. As for Steele, I take it's there for gaming reasons.

 

[Theron]

He did, but it doesn't sound like it was difficult to get.

“Pretty weird how different it works on guys and gals, though. When I got it, I figured I was gonna get huge tits and turn into a bimbo. Never actually occurred to me to talk to a bull around here, I guess. Didn’t see one till after I ran into the gift shop and Treated up.”

“Even better, the Treatment’s free in the gift shop. You should try it: you’ll never regret it!”

While it's not actually free (1-2 credits depending on your relationship with Ellie), it's extremely cheap. (I'm not sure the code supports vendors selling things worth 0.)

Anyone who wants to become a citizen has to take it, but I'm pretty sure if you take it, you don't have to become a citizen.

Cass fussed with the medipen in her hand. She had gotten it when she made planetfall, almost three hours ago.

Looking back at the medipen in her hand, Cass frowned. They handed these out to everyone who arrived on planet, despite the chemical and robotic cocktail inside being illegal in most of the known universe.

Cass rolled the medipen in her hand. She would have to incinerate it (or use it) soon. It was illegal everywhere else in the known galaxy.

Of course, Captain Steele can keep a Treatment medipen in storage indefinitely. Much like Cockvines and infected individuals are not supposed to be allowed off Myrellion, according to the Codex, but Captain Steele can leave and no-one objects.

 

[Kesil]

That "they handed these out to everyone who arrived on planet" sounds like a gross negligence. Assuming that Steele isn't the only one that can keep a medipen and traverse through the universe with it, a sample could be enough for the UGC to learn more about it and skip the "Overdose" stage. Not to discuss what could happen if whole planets were flooded with Treated individuals

Disclaimer: I don't remember how tight New Texas customs can be, other than Ogram's making Steele leave the weapons aside.

 

[Theron]

Ogram arrived on New Texas, saw Amma, proposed, she told him to take the Treatment, he went to the Gift Shop and used it. It was so fast he didn't see any bulls before he Treated himself. Or he had extreme tunnel vision.

Sighing, the aroused transport pilot scrolled past to the meat of the article: the compounds at work and their effects. Her brow furrowed at what she saw. Fully eighty percent of the medipen’s ingredients were tagged as classified and hidden. The other twenty percent seemed to be a combination of sex hormones, reprogrammable microsurgeons whose instructions were too encrypted to decipher, and high grade, brain-chemistry altering drugs. None of those looked that nefarious. They were things that were already being used to treat depression, anxiety, or traumatic stress disorders. Odd.

That's probably the most difficult part to reverse-engineer. I'd think they could inject some 'volunteers' and put them in a scanner or something to how the microsurgeons change things. Also, the Treated Zil Male's backstory involves a ship smuggling a shipment of the Treatment, and a replicator, which crashed on Mhen'ga (according to the Wiki). So it's possible to replicate, even without knowing how it works.

From the sound of it, most New Texans want people to take the Treatment. After all, it's responsible for so much of their happiness. Even Reaha wanted to become a busty, milky cowgirl, but without the mental effects.

Oddly, the planet is called 'Grand Teh' in the story. I don't know if the name was changed at some point, or if it's an alternate reality or something.

 

[TheShepard256]

Remember that the four main novellas - Talon Rogue, The Gene-Stealer, The Treatment and Downtime - were written very early in TiTS's development, and some changes that have been made since then have rendered some portions non-canonical, including (but not necessarily limited to):

• The name of the planet used to be Grand Teh, but now it's New Texas. The first few scenes of Steph Irson's NT episode still refer to NT as Grand Teh.
• Presumably, giving every visitor a Treatment medipen (which I agree would be grossly negligent) is no longer canon; otherwise, Steele and Ogram would each have gotten one once they'd passed customs (in canon, both have to go to the gift shop to get one).
  
• Cass is mentioned as having furred forelimbs and having gone into heat before, neither of which are traits kaithrit have in canon.
• The names Athena listed for Kaede's parents in Talon Rogue (Malcolm Heaney and Surina Entara) are different to those in TiTS itself (Ezekiel "Zeke" Entara and Amara Faell).

So, I guess using the novellas to derive canon carries similar problems to using code for the same purposes i.e. do so with caution.

Of course, there's also Gameplay and Story Segregation to explain why Steele can take Treatment medipens, parasitic cockvines and various other illegalities with them at all times, even when interacting with law enforcement agents; if this applies to other things as well, it presents further difficulties in deriving canon from any given material. I suppose we'll just have to judge things on a case-by-case basis and have debates like these until/unless we all come to some sort of agreement or the devs themselves say something on the issue.
I think it's funny to note, however, that Steele can take a varmint through NT customs because Ogram and Amma were distracted. Make of that what you will.

 

[ScarletteKnight]

Even Reaha wanted to become a busty, milky cowgirl, but without the mental effects.

I think Reaha's dialogue indicates that she wanted to be a cow because that's what her beauty standards had been since she was born, because every other woman around her was a sexy cow. But seeing the mental effects, especially older sisters given that there's a clearer before and after compared to others, became a mental scar that made her run away. And if I recall, one of her regrets is not keeping her younger sister from taking the Treatment, because it horrified her so badly.

And I agree with her, on both fear of the Treatment and her desire to go through so much shit to become what she sees as beautiful. The Treatment sounds like a super date-rape drug on steroids for women, while making most men bigger and stronger with a higher sex drive. And I'm personally still struggling with never feeling attractive enough, and it's taken years and a lot of suffering to even get to where I am.



I didn't mean for this to become so long, I just wanted to clarify Reaha's reasoning better than that....

 

[MeepTheChangeling]

I won't dispute theories, but I will make corrections.

Gene editing doesn't add or subtract anything, it replaces a specific code with another.

Normaly, no. But do remember that gene editing and general genetic material compilation makes errors all the time. It's not prefect. Just look at the massive list of human birth defects for proof of that. Cancer is another example of DNA screwing up copying itself. It's not only possible but probable that microsurgeon edits would eventualy leave some extra bits of code in by accident sometimes.

 

[Couch]

You could think of extra bits of code as, for instance, threads that have been dead for two years.

I don't recall who said it, probably Nonesuch, but at some point someone is going to necro a thread and attempt to start an argument with a person who is actually deceased.

 

[MeepTheChangeling]

You could think of extra bits of code as, for instance, threads that have been dead for two years.

I don't recall who said it, probably Nonesuch, but at some point someone is going to necro a thread and attempt to start an argument with a person who is actually deceased.

I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was trying to tell people cool science facts and correct a common misconception. Sorry to hear they're dead :c I'm not exactly a part of this community. Just an occasional passerby.

 

[TheShepard256]

I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was trying to tell people cool science facts and correct a common misconception. Sorry to hear they're dead :c I'm not exactly a part of this community. Just an occasional passerby.

Actually, it's the necroing aspect that's the perceived problem, not the argument part. People generally don't like it when threads that haven't been posted in for a while suddenly get a new post, especially if it's continuing a line of discussion that everyone else involved dropped and/or forgot about a long time ago.

Also, the person you originally replied to was, at the time of this post, last seen on Saturday, so I think it's safe to say they're still alive. I think Couch referenced that statement to highlight a significant issue with necroing threads, not because it's what's happened here (which it probably isn't).