How powerful is the CoC1 champion relative to CoC2?

[erectorz]

Lore wise how strong does the Champion of Mareth(CoM) compare to the characters in coc2?

It's been a while since i played coc1 but I remember getting to the 20s by late game? maybe 23-25ish? don't remember exactly. But Kasyrra is level 20 (I think) and again i'm a bit fuzzy here but I think she was one of lethice's generals? And Lethice, who I assume is more powerful than kasyrra, was level 25 in her fight in coc1. Kasyrra being level 20 in terms of coc1 gameplay also makes sense since its significantly lower than lethice, but significantly higher than Kiha who she states was the youngest of her dragons(which I also take to mean the weakest). And considering the CoM SOLOS everything in coc1 bar some really specific fights I wouldn't be surprised if they would absolutely curbstomp anything that could be fought in coc2. I might be wrong here but I think max level was supposed to be 10(when the game is finished)?

But how would the CoM compare to the 7? Clearly they are extremely powerful and I'd put them significantly stronger than lethice. But how much stronger is the question? Do you guys think CoM would have even a hint of a chance? Kasyrra i'm pretty sure can beat the 7 in some of the bad endings. Whether or not she does that with brute force, corruption or other shenanigan's is up for debate. If the 7 are about level 30 I can see the CoM taking out one of them but if they team up I don't think there is anyway for the CoM to win. If the 7 are anything higher than the low 30s the CoM is getting cooked.

What do you guys think? What other creatures in Coc2 do you think would have a chance agains the Com?

Also as a side not, does lethicite actually do anything? In either game do the characters actually use lethice as a source of power? I know you can restore souls with them in Coc1 as one of the endings but in coc2 it just seems to be a disposable object since the demons don't really use it for anything.

 

[Aliame1950]

we've been shown that the Seven are pretty much a Big Deal so I guess they can beat CoM no problem in a straight up fight. I've finished CoC1 multiple times and jacked and maxed to the tits and I still lose 1 out of 5 times to the Minotaur King fight before Lethice. Too much has to line up for the player to win that fight.

CoC1 does show trickier Succubi than Kasyrra so I'm guessing CoM will wipe the floor with her, cum and all.

 

[erectorz]

Yeah thats fair, the 7 are absurdly powerful. Makes me wonder how the hell kasyrra manages to dethrone all of them. I can imagine she beats 1 or 2 with some trickery but all 7 of them is crazy to me.

 

[Savin]

Makes me wonder how the hell kasyrra manages to dethrone all of them

She clearly has not done so outside of non-canonical bad ends

 

[Yokohama]

What I feel is important to remember about the gods of the first game and the possible future for the 7 is that the coc1 gods had a few hundred years of warfare against the demons that corrupted and weakened them from their prime. And the writers are putting their spines into overpowering the 7 (atlesat in the forum) as to try and curb the godkin pc desire form forming. Thou one event in the first game still has a chance to happen that could right the scales against them, that being a "break the demon factory" event where a strong enough mass corruption event defiled the area

 

[EvilK]

I understand that this may be off topic but I still don't quite get the stakes in this game. Everything I hear about the Seven imply that they could snap their fingers and make Kasyrra disappear. Its not even like they are all occupied or anything. Keros makes himself readily available at the Den, and even Mallach can have a conversation with the Demon.

So really what's the point of having the Champion do anything? If this is a threat so far below the attention of the Seven then there are no real stakes.

Perhaps it would be different if the Seven had tangible reasons for not being able to interfere it would make more sense.
Or maybe it could be spinned in way that Kasyrra could end up being an actual threat to the Seven, and that they, in their arrogance, are underestimating her.
However there has been no evidence that any of this is the case.

 

[Savin]

is that the coc1 gods had a few hundred years of warfare against the demons that corrupted and weakened them from their prime

No they didn't.

Demons as a THING are 20 years old. Sentient life on Mareth is like 100ish. Maybe less.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Feels like there should be an extra 0 on that 20, 2 decades seems anti-climatic for a divine clash kinda thing. Shit human wars last longer than that

 

[Savin]

Feels like there should be an extra 0 on that 20, 2 decades seems anti-climatic for a divine clash kinda thing. Shit human wars last longer than that

And yet, there is not. That is the actual canon from CoC1. The demon outbreak began about 20 years ago.

Kasyrra was there from day 1 and she's like 40 now.

 

[SomeNobody]

Powerlevel bullshit is just the worst.
CoC2 is also pretty bad in terms of powerlevel sequel escalation since it decided to introduce brand-new supernatural beings who could effortlessly shit all over the conflict of the previous game in the form of the big scary 'Wraiths', that apparently just exist in the setting now and are totally and completly unstoppable unless opposed by other wraiths pretending to be gods (who are stronger than actual gods seen in the previous game).

Its amongst the likes of the worst kind of thing to introduce into an existing setting, and is eyebrow-raising when some of the writers have displayed a downright spiteful attitude to the previous game that Corruption of Champions 2 is a sequel of- be it in general discussion or with segements of CoC2 such as Tobs and his 'Raphael'.
That being taking a random minor encounter who was a dashing duelist-thief romance-novel cliche and maybe a bit lame and making your version that is an unrelated character in the same overall setting who is for no reason a physical clone of them in name and species but instead of just being a fox guy with a rapier who is less charming than he thinks he is and runs an orphanage with the spoils of his thievery this one is an utterly psychotic killer/rapist who leads the foxy KKK supremacists in opposition of the favoured Kitsune cast (and thus are utterly evil). That's just demented as a thing to insert into the story.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

And yet, there is not. That is the actual canon from CoC1. The demon outbreak began about 20 years ago.

Kasyrra was there from day 1 and she's like 40 now.

Ain't disputing that, but just like how I love Warhammer to death there's plenty in the official canon that makes me raise an eyebrow. This ain't no different, 20 years feels off when you have to account for everything that had to happen to make the world what it was in the first game.

But, it is what it is especially when you have folks from all walks throwing everything but the kitchen sink into the ring.

Powerlevel bullshit is just the worst.

Who hurt you?

Fuck me I'm a dumbass I didn't even answer the question. 1on1s COM was built different, as for team fights gotta give it to a lawful evil champ and a purified Lethice. Because only in the evil endings do you become immortal and start taking over other worlds, and purified Lethice is the best girl that one-ups god at being godly.

The moral of the story be evil and marry demon queens and life just kinda works out

 

[Ultra Chad]

Off topic but are coc1 champ and Lethice still planned to show up in CoC2?

 

[Savin]

Off topic but are coc1 champ and Lethice still planned to show up in CoC2?

No

 

[erectorz]

She clearly has not done so outside of non-canonical bad ends

No i get that, but for real how the hell could they fumble that badly even in a non canon ending.

Feels like there should be an extra 0 on that 20, 2 decades seems anti-climatic for a divine clash kinda thing. Shit human wars last longer than that

Considering the nature of corruption in coc, rather than your typical war it seems like a zombie apocalypse type deal. Since the corrupted can make more corrupted and unlike zombies are actually intelligent and can work unified toward a goal. Fucking kas manages to fuck most of winter city in the time Champion of frost was napping. The fact that within a matter of weeks entire cities could fall to demons 20 years doesn't sound that unreasonable.

 

[PalletTown]

If I was to put my finger on it, I would say the Kasyrra is about as powerful as Lethice, maybe a little less. If you can solo Kasyrra then I would say that you are about as powerful as the COM at level 20ish.

As for the Seven, they are probably way more powerful than Mareth. Of course, Mareth was basically being poisoned for years. Also, while I think that the Seven are extremely powerful they are not invincible. I don't think that they can snap their fingers and make the second godwar go away. It has been shown that the Seven are either not taking the threat seriously (Mallach), distracted (Keros), or otherwise occupied (Lumia).

 

[Necros]

Pretty sure the Seven were/are interested in Kasyrras research, so purposely don't interfere directly.

 

[GOI]

Yes they are a combo of interested in what Kas is working on, kind of swore not to interfere sage in dire straits and kind of don’t have a minimum output mode as in if did personally deal with Kas and the demon threat it would pretty much everyone else in the march’s which is why they are setting up a crusade to come and deal with it, Lumia even goes hopefully the others will agree to just kill her which would do nothing to stop the full threat.

because Kas is actually working to prevent khormions from falling working against the actions of Tollas and all the other demons and endless imps.

 

[Yokohama]

because Kas is actually working to prevent khormions from falling working against the actions of Tollas and all the other demons and endless imps.

Are we completely sure that`s the case, I took it to be reverse psychology and that we were collecting as much of their forces as we can to lead into a trap. especially the engineer corp as they would be useful for fortifying the city. Maybe Im just scrambling to understand what they sabatoge path is for this as there`s no stated opposite path form the find traitor goal and she doesn't drop her mask even when we're alone

 

[SomeNobody]

and kind of don’t have a minimum output mode as in if did personally deal with Kas and the demon threat it would pretty much everyone else in the march’s

That's complete horseshit, Lumia manages to appear and violently tackle away a void creature without all the 'mere mortals' present spontaniously combusting. If she did that to Kas the threat would be over by now.
And Kas is a threat, in a sense, on par with the Wraith incursions since her selfish bumbling with portals is threatening to cause them to happen once more.

because Kas is actually working to prevent khormions from falling working against the actions of Tollas and all the other demons and endless imps.

And yet who is responsible for the presence of Imps in the world in the first place? Who is the one slinging it around (consensually or otherwise) and birthing hordes of imps before leaving them to roam free in disgust.
The active presence of the Seven is writing cancer on the plot, you can't have them standing in the same room as Kas in multiple situations without the contrivances involved in them not doing something about her becoming ridiculous.
They'd rather just waste time fucking the Champion (or sometimes in the case of Keros fucking WITH the champion).

If the Seven are selfish false-gods and are more interested in personal matters that is more solid a reasoning for them dragging their feet, but that's something you have to commit to.
So far all their underhanded/selfish actions have been pretty much brushed off as not really a big deal, and the creators have been clear in that they'll never face any sort of setback outside of "non-canon Bad Ends" and especially not due to player action.

 

[GOI]

Kas is perfectly capable of using portals normally and that mess up is something Lumia straight up says thinks that is enough for Kas to have gone too far so she act against her after she saves you and Kas . Lumia does agree that they should just kill Kas not that it would a single thing to stop the demon threat and would let tollas free since he already wants to get rid of her and is

Kind of like how Mallach is the one to bring up that the Seven are interested in her experiments and are loath to interfere directly though mallach does undemonfiy the souls he got back and also how he is willing to help her after we turn her heart fully and are ready for what must be done for that. As they are also watching her overreaching herself

and yes the seven are very much willing to help Kas with her primary goal of having actual kids in the future

She isn’t anywhere close to that kind of threat, we straight up see Lumia against something much much smaller than armies of wraiths come right away despite her dealing with anouther wraith at the time and all her forces busy fighting an end of the world threat and slowly losing to said threat.

aka why do you think that Lumia makes sure to take the fighter and cause everyone to need to back up from her simply acting her sword enchant

and she isn’t in fact killing Kas will do 0 in effect to the actual threat because every single imp and demon and Tollas are even more(or just a much) as much of a threat since he was messing with the portal for years and years


and yes we knew for sure tollas is working against her we got his notes about how he thinks she is holding them back massively and he is working against her, sure she isn’t good by any stretch of the word yet though the fake ring of fate restoring some of her sense of self seems to have influenced her as Tia high priestess(which some people think is Tia herself), as the gods executioner and believer in redemption.


As in he straight of thinks Kas having done nothing with the cult and power he greater would have been in a better place than they are now, he straight up goes that she is the biggest weakness of the cult who ruined all the power that he built up, why do you think his personal assassin tried to kill Kas as his second most loyal minion.

 

[Dude_with_bad_english]

In pure power level comparison, I think the coc1 Champ is stronger. May beat a shit out even strongest demons which ate a shitload of souls, literally by bare hands, alone. And has an imbalance ability, if he reaches your head - you're fucked, you're just fucked, it doesn't matter who you are - it's over, even the lack of a neck probably won't help.

But that's just problem of different editions. Coc2 is dnd4e where you starting not so heroic and powerful, but definitely competent and gradually develops getting stronger, but without any noticeable leaps in strength.

Meanwhile coc1 is a adnd2e where you're yesterday's peasant, a schmuck, and your first encounter with the imp will most likely end up with your ass get fucked. But give some time, a couple of perks, useful mutations and regular trips to the gym and you're an unstoppable machine of retribution!

As for the theoretical fight between the coc1 Champ and the Seven? It all depends if he can get to the necks, seriously, it's an imbalance.

But in the whole multiverse I'd put my money on captain Steele, he's got a gun.

 

[SomeNobody]

and yes the seven are very much willing to help Kas with her primary goal of having actual kids in the future

Kas doesn't deserve that kind of help.
That's a major problem with the writing of Kasyrra; despite supposedly being the big invincible villain the writing goes too far out of its way to smother her with sympathy because people want to fuck her. So she's both the unbeatable demonic rapist monster who goes around ruining lives, corrupting people and despoling the world like in Winter City but then she's also the poor little victim who gets even the 'gods' going out of their way to give her a happy-ever-after good end.
And in turn all her sins are pushed onto Tollus since no one wants to fuck him, thus he's the whipping-boy villain the player is allowed to actualy stifle and send running with his tail between his legs ala Team Rocket on the regular.

You're talking nonsense when you say she isn't a threat to the world, a quite literal monster that has already done incredible harm to the innocent in such a short period of time.
Tollus is a joke compared to her, even in the decades he was running a cult before managing to summon the big red machine the greatest showing he could manage was the likes of getting some kids in a boonies frontier village to drink his kool-aid only to get immediatly slaughtered by the giant furry warrior milf living there. He wasn't corrupting royalty and overthrowing the biggest nations in the region.
They both need to be wiped out, either in vengeance for their massive tally of victims or to protect all the people they have yet to add to that number.

 

[GOI]

The royalty was implied to being corrupted years before Kas showed up. In fact the high preistess(who we think is Tia straight up says so) and it is implied that is fully Tollas work since Kas does not want him to succeed in taking down Khormions because that could threaten her plans to be able to have kids again.

pin fact that slow set up and corruption is much more like mr was continuously getting corrupt potions and such through the portal every year for decades than Kas walked into the city and took over the palace and just there is what a few days to a week. Cause you know if Kas wants something she basically goes do it right away unless she has to wait because demon.


and yet every year without fail he messed with the portal and we can’t even say for sure how dead those youths were because one of the people that were thought to be killed is perfectly fine and causing trouble today. And those deaths did nothing to effect the cult and got said warrior who was the only person willing to do anything exiled while the cult just kept going business as usual, in fact Tollas was almost ready to straight up become king of Hawkstone which was his goal

part of Tollas is so upset that she was summoned in the first place instead of the normal potions he got with such trades and is straight up planing to get rid of her, or take control of her that was for instance the whole point of the work in the Ice area by the cult, him trying one method of getting Kas under his control, studying the faceless blade and trying to stuff a soul into Kas are others

also eh could go either way personally on helping Kas, but that is a personal opinion not fact. My main ish play though or at least the one on cloud so I have most easy access to can’t help her most likely since gave soul to keros. I can see the reason to help her but also could see just telling her to get lost

 

[erectorz]

But in the whole multiverse I'd put my money on captain Steele, he's got a gun.

Who needs courage when you have a GUN!

 

[Precipitation]

While I agree with the general sentiment that Mareth Champ seems stronger than Frost Champ due to going solo, I think this kinda stumbles into some questions I've had for some time.

I mean, how strong is Mareth Champ even supposed to be? How strong is Frost Champ too, by the same token? And their enemies?

I'm not talking about some ultra detailed "Champ can lift x tons and hit with x amount of force" since that would just be ridiculous and frankly unnecessary, but I imagine there's at least some rough ballpark of how strong they are supposed to be.

At least, from what I've played of both games, I have a somewhat hazy image of how strong they aren't. Neither is presented in a way that makes them seem like some anime protagonist flash stepping at supersonic speeds and destroying castles with casual blows.

Spoiler: How strong is Mareth Champ?

Like, Mareth Champ should be stronger due to defeating Lethice, but we don't really know how strong she is either other than Pretty Strong™. Which isn't really surprising considering she effectively doesn't exist in the story for nearly the entirety of the game, being only mentioned some times, so by itself beating her doesn't mean much when comparing the Champ to things other than demons.

I guess we can kinda see Mareth Champ's limits with some encounters in the last dungeon. The Living Statue is a pure combat encounter that apparently was put there for players who wanted a challenge. It's a thirty feet tall marble statue that wields a proportionally big hammer. If you lose, it crushes you with said hammer. It's animated by lethicite but doesn't show any special properties other than being big and strong and the fight never seems to make any implication that this made the statue stronger. Given the descriptions used (alabaster destroyer, for example) Mareth Champ apparently finds this enemy to be really intimidating.

So Mareth Champ can beat a thirty feet tall marble statue but it's an extremely challenging fight for them even at their peak.

Another indication of their strength is the entrance of Izumi's lair. She put a huge boulder at the entrance and even at high strength the text makes it clear that it takes a lot of effort from Mareth Champ to slowly move it to widen the passage. The Champ is also really awed when she moves the boulder easily with a single hand.

Magic wise, we never see them do anything too crazy, either, and it seems fair to assume that a mage Mareth Champ isn't ridiculously more powerful than a warrior version. At least, they are never shown to be slinging around fireballs that can melt stone or trivilize most situations.

Given that, Mareth Champ appears to be clearly superhuman but not extremely so. Less Thor or Superman and more Captain America.

Even the ending where Mareth Champ goes on a campaign to free Mareth seems to support this, as it is a long and brutal slog even in the best scenarios. With it not being done even after their death in the worst scenario.

So clearly, they aren't at "trivially defeats everybody and conquers Mareth" even after beating Lethice and with an army to back them on said campaign.

Spoiler: How powerful is Frost Champ?

Frost Champ appears to be in the same ballpark, if perhaps weaker due to always going around with a party. That they aren't some super god of combat is pretty clear due to several statements by the devs that CoC2 isn't a power fantasy.

As far in the game as the Undermountain, a large group of Hobgoblin hobos/bandits poses a real threat to the party. Annika's stories about legendary warriors she's fought side by side with also paint them as pretty superhuman, but not ridiculously so. Nobody is wiping out armies with ease, and holding back and/or beating a large amount of enemy soldiers by yourself is treated as a very impressive thing in general.

I'd need to re-read it, but a good example of the current party's limits might be Leofric's fight scene. Either the Frost Champ (if they have high enough stats) or a relevant companion can dodge or block his attack, with this seemingly taking a pretty big effort. Said scene, IIRC, shows that Leofric's blows can crack stone a fair bit, but it's not like he's pulverising boulders and/or reshaping the landscape with each blow.

Another point is that Brienne, IIRC, has a dialog post-pregnancy where she mentions that she isn't confident she could lift a horse, but believes she could lift a pony. Brienne (and by extension Brint) are generally treated as one of the more phisically impressive companions, so others shouldn't be much stronger than this.

Magic-wise, Juno the Storm Witch has firepower that is well beyond most mages, including the Champ, so "much weaker mage than Juno" is a fair limit for a mage Frost Champ.

The codex on Sieges also mentions that it's rare for magic to be so powerful that it can damage stone or fortifications:

They had some siege engines, although those few that survive mostly seem to have been used to clear warriors off of the tops of walls rather than breaking the walls themselves. Magic is also a possibility, but few spells have the sort of concussive power needed to seriously damage stone, brick, or earth fortifications.

The Frost Champ is likely stronger than your average mage, but the game doesn't indicate that they are so much stronger that they are playing on an entirely different level.

In terms of agility, the obstacle course that the Valkyries use also don't paint the Frost Champ as some having such extreme speed or agility that is extremely superhuman either.

So they are clearly superhuman, with the specific way and how much depending on the play style (White Mage Frost Champ isn't going to be a physical powerhouse).

So, all in all, both Mareth Champ and Frost Champ are clearly superhuman but not to a ridiculous degree where more "normal" combatants can't do anything to them at all. I've mentioned Captain America before, but that seems to be an apt comparison in general, if at least to illustrate the ballpark of their strength.

Mareth Champ seems to be the stronger one between the two, but not to the extent that enemies in the lastest story areas of CoC2 wouldn't be able to pose some challenge (consider that some enemies also fight the CoC2 party solo) and Kas should still be a tough fight.

Spoiler: The Seven

The Seven and the Wraiths are portrayed in a manner that indicates that they are beyond everything we've seen before. How strong does that make them? I have no idea. At the very least, I didn't get the impression that they could just point their finger at a mountain and vaporize it casually, if that's something they could do at all.

The description given on fights that happenned during the Godwar makes it seem that the Seven are throwing down some serious power when compared to mortals, but it takes protracted battle for them to cause great damage to the surrounding environment. Mortal armies also aren't entirely irrelevant, even if it's likely that they would end up as collateral.

Like, the impression I get is that Lumia fighting a comparable Wraith to her would wreck the region over the course of a long battle, but it wouldn't be "battle starts -> entire region immediately becomes a smoking crater". It would be like the final battle of a superhero movie like Man of Steel. The city/region is completely wrecked and the very terrain might suffer damage as the battle goes on, rather than a Dragon Ball or end of series shounen fight where mountain-vaporizing blasts are thrown around like candy, fights happen in fractions of a second at ludicrous speed, and weaker combatants are irrelevant to the point they sometimes might as well be statues or at best spectators.

Regardless, Mareth Champ seems to have as much chance against them as Kas has. That is, little to none.

Could Lethice fight one of the Seven on equal terms? I don't know, but considering that her fight with Mareth Champ, probably not.

 

[TalRasha]

Who needs courage when you have a GUN!

He's just a powder wizard. "Lol imagine waisting years of learning spells and practice instead of just aim and pull the trigger".

Back to the topic: it is quite hard to compare this two characters, because they both as good as player, well, play them. And this is even harder for Champion of Frost (CoF), because there is no solid level cap yet, he might be stronger. And think about this: CoF hanging around with his squad, yes. Does this make him weaker than CoM? Probably. But does this provides to CoF some tactical freedom? For sure. We can build CoF as full DD (for example) and not worry about tanking and healing, 'cause there is 2 more slots in the party. CoM is one man army, CoF is a squad leader, both states have their advantages and disadvantages. A comparison would be inappropriate, since the methods of combat are different.

 

[erectorz]

I mean, how strong is Mareth Champ even supposed to be? How strong is Frost Champ too, by the same token? And their enemies?

The two champs are definitely just high powered normals. Like im almost certain any high caliber gun would just kill their asses no problem. This gets a bit to video gamey since health is a nonsense concept realistically but most weapons are just run of the mill metal weapons. And even the higher end enchanted stuff is still pretty mundane. Both champs definitely live in a lower magic setting. Since even their most powerful combat spells amount to big blast of fire. Like in basically any anime or comic book these two are getting cooked.

Back to the topic: it is quite hard to compare this two characters, because they both as good as player, well, play them. And this is even harder for Champion of Frost (CoF), because there is no solid level cap yet, he might be stronger. And think about this: CoF hanging around with his squad, yes. Does this make him weaker than CoM? Probably. But does this provides to CoF some tactical freedom? For sure. We can build CoF as full DD (for example) and not worry about tanking and healing, 'cause there is 2 more slots in the party. CoM is one man army, CoF is a squad leader, both states have their advantages and disadvantages. A comparison would be inappropriate, since the methods of combat are different.

This goes under the assumption that CoM wouldn't party up in the COC2 setting. If he pairs up with kiha, who while weaker than alieh is still at least in the same realm of power, i doubt any of the coc2 cast could deal with something like Com, Kiha, Helia. And in the case that CoM stays solo, most solo enemies in coc2 get multiple actions per round. Even weak bitches like nakano get multi actions so it would surprise me if CoM would at least have 1 more action per round.

Adding to the freedom of builds. In Coc1 you were basically only limited by equipment. You could know every spell, use a bow, while still being tanky as fuck and making people coom with a glance. CoM isn't an all rounder because they NEED to be but rather because the system they are in allows them near infinite freedom. This becomes way to video gamey but CoF is desgined to be in a party so they have limitations. CoM isn't so they can do whatever the fuck they want. The fact that CoF has limitations is in no way a benefit because whatever the CoF party might be able to do, CoM probably does it by themselves better. Not to mention if CoF gets downed its an instant loss anyway. Good luck trying to down CoM in one round.


As for the level cap, I thought the cap was going to be 10? was I just mistaken there?

 

[Bast]

How many Kasyrras is 1 Goku?

 

[Ace Hangman]

How many Kasyrras is 1 Goku?

Are you talking base pre-Savarran Kasyrra, Super-Savarran Kasyrra, Super-Savarran Kasyrra Crimson, or Great Golden Cow Kasyrra?
I mean, come on! Do you even know the original Kitsuhon manga version?