So here we are. Day 27 of the government shutdown in America, with both sides not even talking to each other and the economy slowly imploding I wanted to know what you people think about this and how it has affected you
Government shutdown stories and thoughts
- Thread starter A Random Guy
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Trump is trying to blackmail the government to give him the funding for the wall by holding it hostage.
McConnol has been blocking legislation to reopen the government (that does not include 5b for the border wall), and its fairly probable that eventually a bipartisan funding bill would get a supermajority if they received proper votes.
During December 2017, a failed funding bill included (alongside other, normal & bipartisan segments) a deal between Democrats and Trump of wall funding for a Dreamer act. It was rejected by Republicans. It would be interesting if this deal would make a comeback...
During December 2017, a failed funding bill included (alongside other, normal & bipartisan segments) a deal between Democrats and Trump of wall funding for a Dreamer act. It was rejected by Republicans. It would be interesting if this deal would make a comeback...
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Democrats are refusing to even negotiate for fear that any compliance with Trump will turn their voters against them. It's not like only one side is the problem here, the president is just 1 man who can be overruled by a sufficient majority. Democrats could easily leverage this into expanded Medicare or amnesty for the illegal immigrants already in the US. Instead they use partisanship as an excuse to be obstinate while trusting their radicalized base to blame the evil Drumpf for everything.
If you're non-essential fedreal employee you're probably sitting at home not working and not getting paid. If you're essential...you're working and either not getting paid your actual wages, not getting paid on time or both. There is at least one class action lawsuit against the federal government about this as this violates the FLSA. If there was ever a time for the federal workers union to show some teeth, it's now.
Ironically, this fight over border security has resulted in making our border less secure.
Ironically, this fight over border security has resulted in making our border less secure.
Yeah they tried that earlier and it was rejected. What was that thing about insanity again?
You're a coward for insinuating Tinman is wrong and then running away before he can respond and an idiot if you think this kind of inoffensiveness isn't going to grind this conversation to a full stop. Come out for your truth, step on some toes, don't let the chuds define reality.
Well damn. I'm Mexican and still like several of Trump's idead. Everyone where I live says the he is right, at least on the immigration bit. Since I live near the south border, I was aware of how and where those centroamericans entered our country. Everyone, absolutely everyone, was outraged, and wanted to kick them out.
The newly elected governor of my state suggested to the government to ask for US funds to build a wall on our southern border (Mexico-Guatemala/Belice border). The center-north states demand that the president restores our old General Population law (it was softened on the 06), and the law of Demographic Balance (proposed on the 76, but never apploed).
Regarding the government closure on the US, I think that the lack of gas in my country is a more serious issue, but I think (and hope) that the Democrats desist soon, for the sake of stability.
The newly elected governor of my state suggested to the government to ask for US funds to build a wall on our southern border (Mexico-Guatemala/Belice border). The center-north states demand that the president restores our old General Population law (it was softened on the 06), and the law of Demographic Balance (proposed on the 76, but never apploed).
Regarding the government closure on the US, I think that the lack of gas in my country is a more serious issue, but I think (and hope) that the Democrats desist soon, for the sake of stability.
Agree to disagree? Whoever is in the right, political arguments in places like this is akin to arguing for the sake of arguing. Nobody is going to convince anyone. At most, the loudest, most obnoxious poster will get a ban when this thread is locked.
Blame lies with the government in general, which was the point of my comment. Trump is refusing to agree to anything unless he gets his wall. Republicans are refusing to pass necessary legislation for the sake of solidarity. Democrats are refusing to cooperate, or even negotiate, purely to avoid giving Trump a win. And I'm pretty sure they're all getting paid despite the fact that most other government workers are not. It's a terrible situation, but blaming Trump exclusively is absurd. I'm not sure what you could possibly disagree with on that. If you genuinely have a counterargument for any of that bring it forward. If not, saying "I'd like to respond but it's off topic" does absolutely no good while being the most off topic comment in the thread.
It might be best to simply not bring up politics at all on this forum. Your political views basically aren't going to have anything to do with your sexual tastes and with how polarized American politics are at the moment I suspect this is just going to turn into an angry shouting match.
I have many qualms about what basically amounts to our leader throwing a tantrum because he isn't getting his way. Like my brother's pay cut, or the food stamps my high school sister lives on being in jeopardy. But all that aside, he does know most illegal immigrants can come over by plane or boat, yeah?
I'm sure somebody told him, at least once. But if you asked him how or how many or any other kind of detail you'd get nonsense back. This shouldn't be a surprise at this point.
I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole too much but I think he just wants to stop the more or less uncontrollable immigration of on-foot groups that can be anywhere from a single person to a caravan that spans the horizon. At least by plane and boat there are already laws in place that allow a tight grip on immigration through water and air transport. Controlled immigration leads to growth, uncontrolled immigration eventually leads to collapse. Nevertheless, a total shutdown is uncalled for. A slowdown would have been more appropriate, or funding of the wall with his own finances(excuse me if he is already doing this and I'm unaware of it).
Personally, I was supposed to be starting a job that is now non-essential within the IRS and now, before my first day, I was fired... well the email said my services were no longer needed. Luckily it was a full time, temporary, seasonal position so I still have my regular job just not one with great pay, great benefits and the potential to become a career.
yeah to go through the prolonged application and interview process for the IRS and then get fucked over after you've recieved your start date is a bit disheartening. And, imagine... their budget plans to cut another 2,200 full time jobs nationwide... jobs created by the fiscal responsibility of our last commander in chief.
Yeah fuck Trump btw. He was never qualified to be president. He doesn't have the political experience, moral fiber or even mental capacity to be a leader of a company let alone a leader of a country.
Actually, Democrats proposed to increase funding to border security and introduce a slew of immigration laws and penalties in order to have the effect everyone wants the wall to have but at a fraction of the cost. Cause, you know, that is responsible. They even looked the other way when Trump was creating Hispanic orphans aka additional wards of the state by deporting the illegal parents of legal American citizens (yes I phrased it that way on purpose).
Hell, The Democrats are still sitting at the table. Just 5 hrs ago AP news reported that Democrats have put forth yet ANOTHER budget for immigration law reform with drastically increased funding (that is still a fraction of what the wall would cost). It would be a win for Trump to accept it but, like a tantrum-throwing toddler, the president elected by the electoral college that is supposed to protect us from demagogues (yes I phrased it that way on purpose, he did lose the popular vote, and he is a demagogue) refuses to compromise. He even said so himself.
Then, on top of everything, the wall he wants so badly would just be a major waste of taxpayer money. I, personally, don't expect responsible legislators to say we'll build that expensive wall if you use even more money to expand Medicare. Where is the money for those two expensive undertakings going to come from with all these reinstituted tax breaks for the rich? The middle class can't handle they're already fucked after those fake tax cuts for the middle-class Trump initiated, all of which doubled the amount of taxes people in my income bracket, which is below the middle class, have to pay. He even took away specific itemized deductions that everyone but the upper class depends on. All the tax reform we saw during Obama's "everyone pays their fair share" campaign to prevent another economic catastrophe have been destroyed or loopholed at the expense of education, healthcare and anyone middle class or lower.
I'm going to stop because I'm ranting at this point.
The moral of the story is that the wall would be an irresponsible way to spend tax payer money, no politician should be supporting such a stupid method of border control... period.
My favorite part is how he blames everyone but himself for the shutdown like a child trying to explain to you why his room isn't clean.
yeah to go through the prolonged application and interview process for the IRS and then get fucked over after you've recieved your start date is a bit disheartening. And, imagine... their budget plans to cut another 2,200 full time jobs nationwide... jobs created by the fiscal responsibility of our last commander in chief.
Yeah fuck Trump btw. He was never qualified to be president. He doesn't have the political experience, moral fiber or even mental capacity to be a leader of a company let alone a leader of a country.
Actually, Democrats proposed to increase funding to border security and introduce a slew of immigration laws and penalties in order to have the effect everyone wants the wall to have but at a fraction of the cost. Cause, you know, that is responsible. They even looked the other way when Trump was creating Hispanic orphans aka additional wards of the state by deporting the illegal parents of legal American citizens (yes I phrased it that way on purpose).
Hell, The Democrats are still sitting at the table. Just 5 hrs ago AP news reported that Democrats have put forth yet ANOTHER budget for immigration law reform with drastically increased funding (that is still a fraction of what the wall would cost). It would be a win for Trump to accept it but, like a tantrum-throwing toddler, the president elected by the electoral college that is supposed to protect us from demagogues (yes I phrased it that way on purpose, he did lose the popular vote, and he is a demagogue) refuses to compromise. He even said so himself.
Then, on top of everything, the wall he wants so badly would just be a major waste of taxpayer money. I, personally, don't expect responsible legislators to say we'll build that expensive wall if you use even more money to expand Medicare. Where is the money for those two expensive undertakings going to come from with all these reinstituted tax breaks for the rich? The middle class can't handle they're already fucked after those fake tax cuts for the middle-class Trump initiated, all of which doubled the amount of taxes people in my income bracket, which is below the middle class, have to pay. He even took away specific itemized deductions that everyone but the upper class depends on. All the tax reform we saw during Obama's "everyone pays their fair share" campaign to prevent another economic catastrophe have been destroyed or loopholed at the expense of education, healthcare and anyone middle class or lower.
I'm going to stop because I'm ranting at this point.
The moral of the story is that the wall would be an irresponsible way to spend tax payer money, no politician should be supporting such a stupid method of border control... period.
My favorite part is how he blames everyone but himself for the shutdown like a child trying to explain to you why his room isn't clean.
Democrats went into this shutdown openly admitting they would not negotiate. They offered that money yesterday, after Trump cancelled their flight plans for a PR campaign, and shortly after that he said there'd be a big announcement Saturday (today) afternoon. So the shutdown may very well be over soon because they finally agreed to negotiate, and they still won't have had to put even a single dollar towards the wall. And another way of looking at the "Hispanic orphans" is that illigal immigrants attempted to manipulate a system that was designed to prevent discrimination. Besides, most of those children are raised by extended family. And the number of parents being deported is actually down. 2017 only saw about 27,000 parents of legal citizens deported compared to the 31,000 of 2015.
Again, this could be an opportune time to grant amnesty/citizenship to these people. Giving 10,000,000 people a quick path to citizenship (and voting) would undoubtedly be a huge victory for Democrats.
And Nancy Pelosi said herself that the Democrats will not negotiate. Those same Democrats sitting at the table were ready to leave the country until Trump cancelled their flight plans. How exactly were they planning to end the shutdown from Egypt? And again, there's going to be an announcement later today about the shutdown. Trump may have actually agreed to the budget they offered up.
Illegal immigrants giving birth costs the US government a minimum of $4 billion per year. The wall would likely stop most latin American immigrants, including those that have already been deported once but come back anyways. If the wall stopped only 10% of those crossing at the border it would pay for itself within a decade. Israel's border wall stopped 99.8% of illegal crossings. If we see similar results it would only take a year for the wall to pay for itself, and everything after that could go to the expense of expanding healthcare. Estimates on how much illegal immigrants already in the US cost the government range from $50 billion to $175 billion per year. It's not enough for universal health care, but it could still do a lot of good. And expanding healthcare doesn't have to be what the Democrats get in exchange for wall funding. If they demanded citizenship for those already here that net deficit could reduce drastically as they start paying income and property taxes. At the very least it would reduce the potential deportees from 11 million to the 800,000 criminals who shouldn't be given citizenship.
The moral of the story is that a wall would probably go a long way towards decreasing how much we need to spend. This money could be re-applied if Democrats insist on getting something in return for the wall, or could simply be cut from the government budget so we can lessen the burden on American taxpayers. It's not worth shutting the government down over, but to outright deny the potential good of the wall doesn't really benefit anyone. It would work well enough to pay for itself over time. If it works as well as other walls, it could pay for itself before Trump is even out of the White House (assuming he loses in 2020).
You're playing pretty fast and loose with your phrasing there. Those instances involve people coming to the US legally and overstaying their visas. So we can't exactly stop them at sea or in the air to send back. Furthermore, it's fairly recently that overstayed visas have been the primary cause of illegal immigration. Mexico and central America are the origin of most of the illegal immigrants already in this country. Chinese visitors make up the second largest group because their government won't cooperate with deportations, and account for only 280,000 of the 11 million. Plus, former visa holders are easier to track down because we have their real names in addition to the address they're using while in the country.
I know this post seems long and off topic, but the misrepresentation and outright lies being shared here are a huge part of why the shut down happened. You're both probably just repeating what you've read (I really hope you're not intentionally lying) in the news, but the manipulative way the information is being presented essentially results in both sides operating on different facts. Hopefully in a couple hours the shut down will be officially over. However, there will probably be more in the future unless people stop spreading misinformation.
I do not live in the states, but the shutdown affected me in an odd way. So I went to Popeye's chicken, and they were out of chicken since it was not from Canada. They are having shipment issues. I know this is not a serious issue compared to the thousands who are going unpaid due to this awful shutdown. But it is a small story.
I'm going to stop you right there.
1. Trump was the one that said no wall, no deal. That is not negotiating, he got up out of a meeting whose purpose was to negotiate and walked tf out by his own admission, of his on volition. Does that sound like something an adult does when they're not getting their way?
2. The fact remains that Democrats are, in fact, negotiating. They're offering a compromise and they've been attempting and suggestion compromise since LONG before they planned the trip, since even before the government was shut down. They offered increased border security as the obvious alternative to a wall during his campaign, laughing about how stupid a wall would be.
3. The purpose of the "PR trip" was to visit the troops... or is that an issue? Oh ig they were supposed to reschedule since Trump is throwing a hissy fit. It isn't like they need to go on a PR campaign with all the bad press the president is attracting. Then again he was elected after talking about grabbing women by the pussy so who knows?
All that being said I admit that I could have missed it when the president was ACTUALLY negotiating (notice I didn't say Republicans because some of them are at the table ready to get to work). I do tend toward more neutral news sources centered around fact checking and real journalism instead of liberal or conservative sources that are obviously slanted against or for a specific party.
So if you have an actual example of the Republicans actually trying to meet the Democrats halfway on this illegal immigration issue I would appreciate the opportunity to further research about it and educate myself as every American citizen should.
See I'm not buying it. I not looking to vilify or demonize anyone, nor am I saying anyone is a saint. I'm not a glass half full or half empty kind of guy. Because both are true, the statements don't negate each other or even contradict each other.
So yes "those people" are "criminals" because they came to this country illegally and they may have had a whole ass child to cement their place in America. That is true. It doesn't make them bad parents, it doesn't make them good parents but it does make them lawbreakers who performed a non-violent criminal act.
But, also, those children are American citizens who are being separated from their parents and, in MOST cases, put into the care of the state. This is also true. It doesn't speak to morality or who deserves what... it is simply a fact. To me there are only two ways of looking at anything, and that is either partially or fully. I don't do half.
In conclusion, in order to punish the guilty we, the American people, have no problem breaking families apart and destroying the homes of our fellow Americans? I'm supposed to agree with three-year-old American citizens appearing alone in court, becoming wards of the state, being forced out of their homes and dehumanized by the administration?
So you mean to say that there was no other responsible way to handle this situation. There as no other punishment or, rather, way to give all non-violent illegals amnesty just because its the right thing to do? not to leverage their lives and that of the American Citizens for the sake of a wall or any other such boon, we could make them legit taxpayers.
But all that is self-indulgent language indistinguishable from sophistry, let's look at some facts.
Fact: Over 500 children were reported to still be in state custody, some having been wards of the state since Trump's Zero-Tolerance Campaign when into effect, at the last half of last year. The report I just looked at was from August, google it if you need some facts and figures.
Fact: Just in the last few days MANY news sources all across the board (except Fox obviously) reported that the number of children affected by the deportation of their parents may actually be in the thousands. They speculate various reasons but the matter is being investigated and the question has been raised.
Also, I haven't been able to find any actual facts and figures about how many children are with their extended family. I've only found a few places where it says that is the favored option when it is available provided the family recieving the child can prove their legality. Nothing definitive though.
Again I could have missed it during my google search if you have some actual facts (and their sources) that back this up I'd appreciate the opportunity to further educate and inform myself on the matter. I hate to think that those people are being treated so poorly by we the people.
Again, I'm not comfortable with a man leading my country who is willing to bargain with the lives of the innocent for a vanity project.
Call me New Fashioned but bowing down to leaders who use dehumanizing language and scapegoat an entire group of people instead of paying his fair share and being responsible is a problem past generations seemed unable to get rid of. I mean we've already had Asian internment camps on American soil; Jewish concentration camps on German soil; Race riots on every major continent; Apartheid against brown people on their own soil... not to mention the native peoples around the world that have been fucked over throughout history. The world doesn't need any more men who think it is ok to turn a group of people into sub-humans due to their country of origin.
I mean to be fair Trump isn't killing illegal immigrants from Hispanic countries (because he isn't focused on the ones from Europe, Jamacia or anywhere else) or putting them in... camps... well except for their children but those aren't camps so its ok in this instance. He isn't a total monster like Castro, Hitler and Putin but his language puts the fear of God into me, listening to him talk the way he does about Hispanic people from "shit hole countries" who are all "criminals" bothers me because of the lessons I've learned from our history. Just because we haven't seen anything as grisly doesn't mean it isn't still morally void and extremely fucked up.
Its too bad his big announcement was a bunch of BS I was actually hoping he had seen reason. I mean he basically degraded the wall he was proposing so that is good. Him extending the temp protection for the kids brought here illegally sounded good but i don't trust it. Combined with what I've heard I would expect him to just toss them out later anyway. He's not offering citizenship or even any form of visa... but it was an interesting olive branch.
This is a good example of alternative facts. Btw since you're so well informed where are you getting your information from?
Personally, I like getting as much info as I can from multiple sources. Then you have to use a bit of logical thinking to suss out fact from flattery, being a writer helps (but is not required) because I can recognize persuasive langauge and that is the first sign that something is trying to sell you.
Original Article
Conservative groups like the Heritage Foundation have sought to put a price tag on illegal immigration amid lobbying efforts against legalization, but none have pegged it as high as Trump's estimate.
Rector said his 2013 estimate pegged the cost of undocumented immigrants — the cost of services received minus their tax contributions — was about $54 billion a year.
A precise cost is nearly impossible to ascertain, many experts said. That's in part because undocumented immigrants operate within the shadows, leaving their full fiscal contributions — and use of taxpayer-funded resources — at least somewhat unknown.
"It's really hard to calculate anyone’s 'net cost' or 'net benefit.' We all use all kinds of services, from roads to military protection. How do we apportion what part of that is something I or you or an immigrant use?" said Kallick.
Overall, there is a broad misunderstanding of how much undocumented immigrants contribute to America's balance sheets, and what taxpayer-funded benefits they receive, the experts interviewed by NBC News said.
"Undocumented immigrants are incredible contributors to our economy and are not eligible for public benefits that people think they come here for," Wiehe said.
An estimated half of the nation's undocumented immigrants are believed to be working under fake Social Security numbers, which means they are paying taxes and into Social Security. The ITEP estimates that state and local governments take in $11.74 billion a year from undocumented immigrants.
Rector said his 2013 estimate pegged the cost of undocumented immigrants — the cost of services received minus their tax contributions — was about $54 billion a year.
A precise cost is nearly impossible to ascertain, many experts said. That's in part because undocumented immigrants operate within the shadows, leaving their full fiscal contributions — and use of taxpayer-funded resources — at least somewhat unknown.
"It's really hard to calculate anyone’s 'net cost' or 'net benefit.' We all use all kinds of services, from roads to military protection. How do we apportion what part of that is something I or you or an immigrant use?" said Kallick.
Overall, there is a broad misunderstanding of how much undocumented immigrants contribute to America's balance sheets, and what taxpayer-funded benefits they receive, the experts interviewed by NBC News said.
"Undocumented immigrants are incredible contributors to our economy and are not eligible for public benefits that people think they come here for," Wiehe said.
An estimated half of the nation's undocumented immigrants are believed to be working under fake Social Security numbers, which means they are paying taxes and into Social Security. The ITEP estimates that state and local governments take in $11.74 billion a year from undocumented immigrants.
^so here you see sound logic, that the illegals with fake social security numbers that actually use american benefits ALSO pay taxes... a direct consequence of having the social security number. The ones who don't have fake SS#s also don't use benefits because even applying for food stamps would mark them as illegals AND bring their presence to the attention of the government they are hiding from.
It also doesn't offer any numbers that would be hard to track without offering up the source of that information.
AP News Article
“Doing a rigorous analysis that fully captures costs and economic contributions to come up with a net fiscal impact is quite complicated, because it is far easier to assess the cost side of the ledger, particularly uncompensated medical care and education, than it is to capture the full economic activity generated by unauthorized immigrants,” she said via email, pointing to “their roles not just as workers and taxpayers but also as consumers.”
This article tackles the president's false statements directly and even exposes FAIR, who advocates for more strict immigration laws, for inflating their significantly lessened numbers by including the costs of children, who ARE US citizens, in their figures. And that is just one of several issues raised about the group's methodology in obtaining their figures.
The excerpt shows, again, that everyone is too busy talking about the cost of illegals being here on the one side. Just like with the children they're focused on half the picture, the half that lets them dehumanize and villify other people instead of seeing them as what they are... people.
"Watchdog" News Article
Federal taxes indirectly fund health care for illegal immigrants through Community Health Centers, tax exemptions for non-profit hospitals and other health facilities, employer tax exclusion, and Medicaid and Medicare subsidies, CIS and Forbes point out. Federal law requires that state Medicaid programs make Disproportionate Share Hospital (DSH) payments to qualifying hospitals that care for a large number of Medicaid and uninsured individuals. Because these hospitals are not restricted from using uncompensated care funds on illegal immigrants, the DSH Medicare and Medicaid payments they receive indirectly fund aggregate uncompensated care losses from illegal immigrants.
Also just logically speaking how would they know exactly who in the community health centers, non-profit hospitals and other such health facilities are illegal immigrants? They only have numbers and maybe names for the people and that's only if the institution answers to the government otherwise that information is privatized.
This part right here is what gets me... because you yourself are repeating what you've read/heard on the news and from your politicians. That's really all any of us can do since we're not there making laws besides Trump but I don't just digest whatever media I find information on, i am critical of it.
I actually listen to both sides and prefer to make an informed decision based on reputable watch dog organiza- I said this above and even showed three articles. One liberal, one a watchdog/fact checking organization and one conservative eventhough it was called watchdog.
Your assumption that we are misinformed is the real problem. We all have access to the same internet that pours a watefall of opinions and BS along with truth, ideology and facts down our throats. Our own values determine what we listen to and what we care about. You and I can look at the exact same information and come up with different conclusions but it is that very principal, that truth, that is America's greatest strength and weakness. Because someone charismatic can come and fool us all into giving a billionaire idiot the keys to the white house but if we are responsible American citizens who educate ourselves we can figure out what is really going on.
But hey I'm just one person with one opinion and one vote... same as you. I dont assume you're misinformed just because you have a different opinion than I do though...
And regardless of the facts some of us don't like watching our billionaire president talk about a bunch of poor brown people like they're less than human. It makes us think of other leaders who scapegoated minorities within their own countries and the horrifying things that happend thereafter. Like Puten's comments about gays and Great Britian's long legacy of war against "savages". It makes us uncomfortable and rightfully so.
Look if you didn't want to be processed into a nutritious blend you shouldn't have jaywalked.
Also did anybody see the pictures of the white house meal? It really captures everything that is America 2019. Cold, garbage tier junk food served on a silver platter with golden candelabra, handled by unpaid workers.
Also did anybody see the pictures of the white house meal? It really captures everything that is America 2019. Cold, garbage tier junk food served on a silver platter with golden candelabra, handled by unpaid workers.
There are no good shutdown stories.
The gist of it is, a woman who worked for the government, was so hard pressed by the shutdown that she had to pawn her wedding ring. Her family found out, contacted the pawn broker and bought the ring back.
Just stop and think about that for a second. She had to pawn quite possibly the most personal item she owned. Her family had to buy it back. So she could afford food.
That's not heartwarming, that's heartbreaking.
The gist of it is, a woman who worked for the government, was so hard pressed by the shutdown that she had to pawn her wedding ring. Her family found out, contacted the pawn broker and bought the ring back.
Just stop and think about that for a second. She had to pawn quite possibly the most personal item she owned. Her family had to buy it back. So she could afford food.
That's not heartwarming, that's heartbreaking.
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