Evasion cap? [0.69.420-BACKER#1898]

[OnlyTwo]

I made a post about this but I'll go into a little bit more detail.

I noticed that evasion is capped at 50% (even after cheating in the best evasion gear) in the java version while in the flash version it went higher.
Here are some pics (both add cap to 50 and pc has 45 reflex)

This set is just the Queen Nyreen spear, Gemstone Links, and the lightweight jetpack.


While this set below is the Rouser, the Leopard Print Jumpsuit, Bio-Enhancement Shield, Myr Bow, and the lightweight jetpack (this should have waaaay more evasion then the top pic)



I cheated items in with the cheat menu so I didn't include the save but this even happens with my imported character from the flash version. I am new to the java version so I'm sorry if a nerf or change went through that I never seen before.

 

[OrangeBurner]

It seems that they is an evasion cap of 50:
creature.js, line: 5182:

evasion()
{
    let cap = 50; // Looks like a hard cap of 50 to me.
    let ev = [
        this.inventory.meleeWeapon.evasion,
        this.inventory.rangedWeapon.evasion,
        this.inventory.armor.evasion,
        this.inventory.shield.evasion,
        this.inventory.upperUndergarment.evasion,
        this.inventory.lowerUndergarment.evasion,
        this.inventory.accessory.evasion,
    ].reduce((acc, a) => acc + a, 0) 

// And a little bit further down in the code, line: 5241:
ev = Math.min(cap, ev);

The only thing currently (I think) in the game which increases said cap is the Smuggler's Stealth Field Generator.

if (this.hasStatusEffect("Stealth Field Generator"))
{
    ev += 80;
    cap += 40;
}

 

[Theron]

In Flash it was 90%. I'm concerned with the effect it will have on the Bonus Defense aspect of Lucky Breaks.

Flash: Defense, Armor: 20
JavaScript: Defense, Armor: 17.0

Note: Bonus is capped at 2x Character level. Otherwise, Flash would be higher. 90% was already going to cap it at +30 (instead of +40).

 

[OnlyTwo]

It seems that they is an evasion cap of 50:
creature.js, line: 5182:

evasion()
{
    let cap = 50; // Looks like a hard cap of 50 to me.
    let ev = [
        this.inventory.meleeWeapon.evasion,
        this.inventory.rangedWeapon.evasion,
        this.inventory.armor.evasion,
        this.inventory.shield.evasion,
        this.inventory.upperUndergarment.evasion,
        this.inventory.lowerUndergarment.evasion,
        this.inventory.accessory.evasion,
    ].reduce((acc, a) => acc + a, 0)

// And a little bit further down in the code, line: 5241:
ev = Math.min(cap, ev);

The only thing currently (I think) in the game which increases said cap is the Smuggler's Stealth Field Generator.

if (this.hasStatusEffect("Stealth Field Generator"))
{
    ev += 80;
    cap += 40;
}

Oh great find! Kinda a bummer though since I went disarming shot on my current save :,)

 

[Theron]

Oh great find! Kinda a bummer though since I went disarming shot on my current save :,)

Let me know how it goes, will you? I wanted to try it out, but learning that a specific enemy is immune specifically because it would render them harmless for the duration kind of put a damper on that.

 

[OnlyTwo]

Let me know how it goes, will you? I wanted to try it out, but learning that a specific enemy is immune specifically because it would render them harmless for the duration kind of put a damper on that.

To be honest I wouldn't take it over stealth since if any hard hitting enemy is immune to disarm now you don't really have the evasion to spare to avoid getting nuked, even with flash nade spam

 

[Theron]

I don't think Smugglers were so overpowered they needed the nerf. It actually takes a while for Evasion to really get going and it felt really good for enemies to miss most of the time. They don't have the recovery of Mercenaries (Second Wind) or Tech Specialists (Deflector Regeneration/Power Surge + Rapid Recharge). Their bonus damage isn't as reliable as Mercs or Tech Specs either.

To be honest I wouldn't take it over stealth since if any hard hitting enemy is immune to disarm now you don't really have the evasion to spare to avoid getting nuked, even with flash nade spam

If you ever want to change over, type pc.removePerk("Disarming Shot") into the Browser Console (F12). That should let you choose Stealth Field Generator in the Level Up menu.

 

[one_two]

I don't think Smugglers were so overpowered they needed the nerf. It actually takes a while for Evasion to really get going and it felt really good for enemies to miss most of the time.

In my experience with the game so far in its current state, as long as you put points and/or training in your reflexes stat, at higher levels the enemies already miss most of the time, even with basic evasion bonus of 25%, and with flash grenade or stealth field going you're pretty much immune. Maybe this changes in the final areas which i haven't yet visited, but somehow i doubt it.

 

[OnlyTwo]

In my experience with the game so far in its current state, as long as you put points and/or training in your reflexes stat, at higher levels the enemies already miss most of the time, even with basic evasion bonus of 25%, and with flash grenade or stealth field going you're pretty much immune. Maybe this changes in the final areas which i haven't yet visited, but somehow i doubt it.

50% evasion without stealth field with flash nades I still do get tagged quite often against enemies who can attack multiple times like the underwater boss in uveto or the war queen at mryellion maybe my rng isn't good but disarm just feels inadequate.

And against things that can't be disarm is not a fun time since I'll get nuked lmao

 

[Erzulie]

I don't think Smugglers were so overpowered they needed the nerf.

Smugglers are straight-up inferior to Mercenaries in both durability and effective damage output (because you have to spend more time worring about not dying you're more likely to invest in defensive effects in both gear and action economy with the former), and, if that wasn't enough, Mercs get better sustain and have an easier early-game. A low Evasion cap straight-up breaks the game and makes Smugglers not work.

 

[Theron]

If they go through with raising the Energy cap at Level 12, Mercenaries will have Energy Regen equal to Smuggled Stimulant (150/2 = 75) on top of regaining 1/2 Health. They're already better than Burst of Energy (133/2 = 66.5 vs 60). Not to mention Mercs get theirs at Level 5, Smugglers wait until Level 7.

 

[one_two]

A low Evasion cap straight-up breaks the game and makes Smugglers not work.

Please play the game as a smuggler in the current port, from a fresh start, before you spout such opinions. The class seems to be working well enough in my experience, that is, it doesn't pose any serious challenge even if you don't bother to min-max anything.

 

[Erzulie]

Please play the game as a smuggler in the current port, from a fresh start, before you spout such opinions. The class seems to be working well enough in my experience, that is, it doesn't pose any serious challenge even if you don't bother to min-max anything.

That misses the point. If you're conservative and careful, all classes can proceed without any serious challenge at the beginning. The Mercenary is still easier under those circumstances and still better well after those circumstances cease.

More notably, the Mercenary does what it thematically feels like it should do at all points in the game. The Smuggler expressly does not as debuffs are, as they are in almost all rpgs, absolutely inferior to straight-damage. Once you compare it to the better defense and utility of the Tech and the better damage and resilience of the Merc, it's real draw appears to be its . . . shopkeep interactions?

It really needs that Evasion, is what I'm saying.

 

[one_two]

That misses the point. If you're conservative and careful, all classes can proceed without any serious challenge at the beginning. The Mercenary is still easier under those circumstances and still better well after those circumstances cease.

The point is you don't need to be conservative and careful, the game is easy enough even with its supposedly game-breaking "low" cap of 50% evasion. It may be even easier with other classes, but that has zero relevance on whether the smuggler as a class is playable or "broken and doesn't work".

Also, i didn't mean only performance at the beginning. I meant it from start throughout -- though as it's typical for these games, it only ever gets easier with additional levels, not harder.

 

[Erzulie]

The point is you don't need to be conservative and careful, the game is easy enough even with its supposedly game-breaking "low" cap of 50% evasion.

Again, this makes no sense to me because you can't come anywhere near the cap at the beginning. Like, there's just no version of your claim that makes the beginning of the game relevant to the implications of Evasion from what I can tell.

It may be even easier with other classes, but that has zero relevance on whether the smuggler as a class is playable or "broken and doesn't work".

That's again nonsensical on my read. The fact that it's easier at start with other classes is the negation of your position and has no bearing on my position. The easiness of the early-game for the other classes compared to the smuggler makes you wrong, but doesn't make me much more right than I already was, so we indrectly agree on its irrelevance as it's only relevant when you make your case and not before.

And if a class is built around a stat being at a high percentage and that stat is capped at a low percentage, then that class, by definition, doesn't do the thing it's designed to do. In games, that's usually called "broken." Again, this is why the ease-claim doubly-irrelevant: the stat isn't appreciably injured at game start and it doesn't address utility where utility is what's in question.

it only ever gets easier with additional levels, not harder.

That's not the case at all. Outside a difficulty spike with the first one to two bosses (which the smuggler is worst at handling), the combat is only challenging in the latter half. IME, I couldn't even lose through neglect or mild purposefulness until near the end of content.

EDIT: It comes down to this: If Evasion is an important stat for Smuggler, capping it by nearly half its range attacks the theme. If Evasion isn't important for Smuggler, that might be worse since it hardly has a raison d'etre at that point. And the latter isn't borne out by play experience afaik.

 

[Theron]

Stealth Field Generator becomes even more dominant because it works vs everything that doesn't auto-hit. Disarming Shot doesn't work on all enemies. It also makes the Stealth Field Generator's magnitude less than it seems. With the boost, the cap is 90%. You only need 10% base Evasion to hit that.

Anything above the cap is wasted, so you're better off going for other stats. This may or may not be a good thing, depending on perspective. In Flash, my Smuggler was using Rouser, Zaika-Style Gown, Light Jetpack, Bio-Enhancement Shield for 69% Evasion and 200 Shields. If I swap out the Sunsetter for the Shock Bow, I have 75%. 78% with Royal Shard Bow. I could go even higher if I swapped out Zaika Gown for Leopard Print Jumpsuit.

In JavaScript, I can swap out the Light Jetpack for the Shield Aug Bracers (+50 Shields) and still have 50% Evasion.

Maybe it was too easy for other classes to stack Evasion? Especially with the escalating stats. 24 (Leopard Print Jumpsuit) + (10 Rouser) + (10 Light Jetpack) = 44 Evasion. Particularly potent on a Tech Specialist that gets 20 Shields back every turn they don't take damage. Bio-Enhancement Shield and Shock Bow would push that to 52%.

 

[Erzulie]

I'll admit that I didn't push Evasion as hard as I wanted to in old playthroughs of other classes but that's because, well, they had better things to do.

Tech Specialist has other defensive options that synergize with their damage output and Mercenary, which has the best chance at non-Smuggler Evasion stacking, doesn't really need to do it since it can tank hits and sustain while hitting hard enough to end the conflict before it gets out of hand.

I'll grant that there's a possibility that the other classes, then, might have an Evasion build thats gangbusters in a way that Smuggler doesn't. But even so, that's cause to muck with their Evasion numbers, not slap down Smuggler.

Or give Smuggler something else. I'm okay with that. Maybe it's not a typo but a premature trigger on a more elaborate plan? I'm likely being silly.

 

[Theron]

Speaking of Mercenaries, what does the 50% cap mean for Take Cover? Or Riposte? If you've hit the cap, the +15% won't actually take effect. Smuggler's Cloak and Dagger auto-perk as well. Smugglers are all but guaranteed to have hit the cap already, so it's useless.

 

[Hanzo]

This change made me wonder if accuracy is now capped.

Is taking additional damage due to negative Evasion still a thing? It'd be nice if it was a debuff so the player can see what's going on.

 

[Theron]

This change made me wonder if accuracy is now capped.

Ice Cappers (30) + Mark II Aim-Assisting Eyepiece (15) + Zaika Gown (10) + Fight Smarter (70 Int/7) = 65% Bonus Ranged Accuracy

It occurs to me maybe we should take this conversation here.

 

[one_two]

Again, this makes no sense to me because you can't come anywhere near the cap at the beginning. Like, there's just no version of your claim that makes the beginning of the game relevant to the implications of Evasion from what I can tell.

OK, let me try to explain in simpler terms. You are claiming that the change to evasion "breaks the game and makes the smuggler class not work". You aren't putting any qualifiers there, regarding how it maybe affects the game at some specific point.

So i'm asking you to put your money when your mouth is -- actually play the game in its current form so you have fresh experience of it to draw from, as opposed to vague memories from who knows how many years back, and show some solid evidence that your claim is anything but just a dumb hyperbole and a kneejerk reaction to "zomg, it's nerfed (and no longer pants on head retarded)". Show where exactly this change "breaks the game and makes the smuggler not work."

Granted, am presuming that by "does not work" you mean what one could sensibly expect, i.e. some sort of "it's not possible to play through the game without exerting a lot of effort, or plain not possible at all". If by "does not work" you actually mean something like "it's perfectly playable but am being mildly inconvenienced compared to playing with other classes", now it'd be a good time to clarify this misunderstanding.

That's again nonsensical on my read. The fact that it's easier at start with other classes is the negation of your position and has no bearing on my position.

My position is your claim "the game is broken and the class doesn't work" is wrong. If the class is playable and does allow you to get through the game without even trying hard, then this is all that's needed to directly contradict your claim.

To make an analogy -- if you make a claim "this car is broken and doesn't work" but the car does actually work, that proves you wrong, simple as that. The performance of another car has no relevance to that. It'd be another story if you claimed that the change makes the class relatively worse off compared to others ("other cars are faster", continuing the analogy) But that's not what you said, not by a longshot.

And if a class is built around a stat being at a high percentage and that stat is capped at a low percentage, then that class, by definition, doesn't do the thing it's designed to do.

On what presumption do you base your statement that 50% a "low percentage" when it comes to avoidance? What do you think the class is, specifically, designed for?

 

[OrangeBurner]

This change made me wonder if accuracy is now capped.

Accuracy appears to not be capped in the code:
creature.js, line: 4921:

attack(melee = true) // I don't know why but Attack is just accuracy in the code.
{ // As you can see there's no cap here.
    let temp = 0;
    if (melee) temp += this.inventory.meleeWeapon.attack;
    else temp += this.inventory.rangedWeapon.attack;
    //Bonus to hit for Tech Specialists above level 7!
    if (this.hasPerk("Fight Smarter")) temp += Math.round(this.bimboIntelligence()/7);
    //Bonus to hit with Rage and Calm Aim perks
    if (this.hasPerk("Rage Aim") && (this.HP() < (this.HPMax() / 2))) temp += 1;
    else if (this.hasPerk("Calm Aim") && (this.HP() > (this.HPMax() / 2))) temp += 1;
    //Lieve Buff
    if(this.hasStatusEffect("Lieve Buff")) temp += 2;
    //Akkadi Bot Buffs
    if(this.hasStatusEffect("Target Link")) temp += this.statusEffectv2("Target Link");
    if(this.hasStatusEffect("Tracer Rounds")) temp += this.statusEffectv2("Tracer Rounds");
    if(this.hasStatusEffect("Chaff Grenade")) return 0;
    temp += this.inventory.armor.attack + this.inventory.upperUndergarment.attack + this.inventory.lowerUndergarment.attack + this.inventory.accessory.attack + this.inventory.shield.attack;
    return temp;
}

Is taking additional damage due to negative Evasion still a thing?

I don't even remember anything to due with negative evasion; is they an enemy move that reduces evasion into the negatives?

But it doesn't seem that evasion is even used in any damage calculations (just if the attack hits or not).
For testing state I made my evasion -100 in the console and was still taking the same amount of shield damage from attacks (didn't test hp or lust damage).

 

[Theron]

On what presumption do you base your statement that 50% a "low percentage" when it comes to avoidance? What do you think the class is, specifically, designed for?

Presumably, the fact that it is possible to achieve for a Smuggler by Zheng Shi at the latest and is attainable by Mercenaries and Tech Specialists by Dhaal. If stat inflation continues it will be increasingly trivial for all classes to hit the cap.
The fact that Smugglers get 1.5x Evasion bonuses from items, or 10%, whichever is more. The fact that they get Evasion/3 as Bonus Defense (and the cap limits how much they can benefit from that). Unless I'm missing something, Cloak and Dagger (which they get automatically) is useless once at the cap. That they basically end up minimizing the number of Evasion items (hit 50%, then ignore) is a bit odd. There is no artificial cap on Defense for Mercenaries or Shields for Tech Specialists.

I don't even remember anything to due with negative evasion; is they an enemy move that reduces evasion into the negatives?

Mechanics change: maintaining an overall negative evasion increases your damage taken.

Triva: It didn't actually take effect for some time, because the math forced negative Evasion to 0. Or 1. I forget. There was a floor, anyway.
If negative Evasion doesn't increase damage, does that mean FZR has been nerfed?

 

[OrangeBurner]

Mechanics change: maintaining an overall negative evasion increases your damage taken.

Looking a bit more into it, It only seems to effect actual base health and not shields (probably why I didn't see a difference).

Spoiler: combat.js, line: 471:

export function calculateDamage(baseDamage, attacker, target, special = "")
{ 
    if(target.evasion() < 0)
    {
        //So, -1 evasion = mult by 1.03
        //-5 = mult by 1.15
        baseHPDamage.multiply(target.evasion() * -4 / 100 + 1);
    }

(I'll start putting code within a spoiler so that my posts aren't unnecessary longer)

 

[one_two]

Presumably, the fact that it is possible to achieve for a Smuggler by Zheng Shi at the latest and is attainable by Mercenaries and Tech Specialists by Dhaal. If stat inflation continues it will be increasingly trivial for all classes to hit the cap.

I don't think this reasoning works -- being able to hit the cap doesn't mean the resulting value is low. Going by this logic, all character attributes are "low values" because you can max them out early on with a small investment of time.

50% evasion effectively doubles character's staying power on average. This is by no means a low value.

There is no artificial cap on Defense for Mercenaries or Shields for Tech Specialists.

Technically the cap on evasion isn't specifically applied to smugglers, so there's no reason why other classes should be targeted in such manner, either. Apparently the amount of defense and/or shields currently available from existing gear wasn't considered as problematic as ridiculously high evasion, and it's quite understandable.

Also, if anything this cap hits other classes more than the smugglers, who get 90% avoidance cap with the stealth generator on. But I suppose a case could be made that --in similar vein-- having Lucky Breaks and Improved Agility traits should be passively increasing the cap for the character by 10 each, to allow them work on top of 50% every class can get with gear alone (with 90% absolute cap in place)

 

[Theron]

I don't think this reasoning works -- being able to hit the cap doesn't mean the resulting value is low. Going by this logic, all character attributes are "low values" because you can max them out early on with a small investment of time.

Nobody gets as much HP as Mercs. Nobody gets as much Shields as Techs. Anybody can get as much (passive) Evasion as Smugglers. Maybe you're right. Maybe it's fine and Smugglers can get through the game just fine (because it's actually really easy). It feels bad for your class to focus so much on something and not really come out ahead.

50% evasion effectively doubles character's staying power on average. This is by no means a low value.

Mercenaries can restore 1/2 their maximum Health (and get 5 more Health/level than Smugglers), restoring 1/2 Energy at the same time and reach 50% Evasion. Tech Specialists can restore Shields (scaling with maximum Shields, Intelligence and Level and get bonus Shields for free), restoring 33/40 Energy at the same time and reach 50% Evasion. Smugglers can ??? (scaling with ???) and reach 50% Evasion. I guess they full heal when resting for 4 hours?

Also, if anything this cap hits other classes more than the smugglers, who get 90% avoidance cap with the stealth generator on.

Assuming they take Stealth Field Generator. And they should, but it's not an auto-perk. It's technically competing with Disarming Shot. The description also doesn't say it lets you break the 50% cap. It just says increase your Evasion by 80%. They also need to inflict Blind or Stun to get their bonus damage (Aimed Shot/Sneak Attack), which also eats Energy and SFG duration. Stun Weapons are hard to come by. My Ranged Smuggler is still using the Shock Bow.
Actually, Agility + SFG with no Item bonuses maxes out effective Evasion. Items just mean you don't need to burn Energy on it as often.
Given how buried the Combat Statistics are, how often do you think players will think they're equipping an upgrade (more Evasion! Yay!), when it actually does nothing?

But I suppose a case could be made that --in similar vein-- having Lucky Breaks and Improved Agility traits should be passively increasing the cap for the character by 10 each, to allow them work on top of 50% every class can get with gear alone (with 90% absolute cap in place)

Lucky Breaks is a second 10% miss chance. It doesn't stack with regular Evasion. That's not really clear from the description, though. I'd support a higher cap. Mercs get +1 max Willpower/level, after all.

 

[one_two]

Anybody can get as much (passive) Evasion as Smugglers.

This is incorrect if Lucky Breaks works the way you say it does, as a separate 10% avoidance roll which works independent of the evasion cap. Although granted, the difference isn't very significant (with capped evasion bonus it's 50% chance to land a hit on another class vs 45% chance to land a hit on a smuggler). Some tweak to values (say, lower the base cap to 40%, increase chance on the Lucky Break to 20-25%) could be considered here to improve smuggler's passive evasion compared to others.

Another aspect at play here is the "opportunity cost" -- class-specific bonus to evasion means (to some extent) being able to equip instead gear that's not evasion-oriented, and still being able to hit that cap while reaping some other benefits that you'd miss out on if you went for the evasion stuff.

Smugglers can ??? (scaling with ???) and reach 50% Evasion. I guess they full heal when resting for 4 hours?

Smugglers can disarm their opponent or avoid damage altogether, making heals unnecessary. In my experience fights where my smuggler character takes some actual damage to her HP are exceedingly rare. Even getting my shield more than scratched is rare enough it's sort of a notable event. Being able to restore 50% health is nigh useless to me in such context; restoring shields could be useful every now and then, i suppose, but again, given what am experiencing it doesn't feel like something to be very envious of.

 

[Theron]

Smugglers can disarm their opponent or avoid damage altogether, making heals unnecessary. In my experience fights where my smuggler character takes some actual damage to her HP are exceedingly rare. Even getting my shield more than scratched is rare enough it's sort of a notable event. Being able to restore 50% health is nigh useless to me in such context; restoring shields could be useful every now and then, i suppose, but again, given what am experiencing it doesn't feel like something to be very envious of.

Did you take Disarm? If so, how often did you use it? How often did you want to use it, but it didn't work? I'm genuinely curious.

Also, just for clarification, was this before or after the "Easy Mode is always on" fix?

(Flash experience) I didn't play much Mercenary, but my Melee Drone Tech become progressively tankier. I spent most of the game in Atma Armor, switching to Augment-Weave at Zheng Shi. I didn't actually Deflector Regen very much at all by Zheng Shi. I actually beat the Shock Hopper without any HP damage because Stuns from Custom Shock Gear (+Rapid Recharge) are just that good (20 Shields for 2 rounds). The hardest two fights were probably Janeria (which seems designed to perfectly counter Melee Drone Techs) and Shizuya for the CSG. Mostly because I was very understatted. I was waiting on Augment-Weave to train at the Ten Ton Gym.
I haven't played much recently. Too many bugs. And worried about the 'Save is too old' warnings.

 

[lowercase_donkey]

If you ever want to change over, type pc.removePerk("Disarming Shot") into the Browser Console (F12). That should let you choose Stealth Field Generator in the Level Up menu.

Make sure you refund the point as well, so you can finish reassigning. Example:

//remove perk:
pc.removePerk("Attack Drone")
pc.unclaimedClassPerks += 1

 

[Theron]

Make sure you refund the point as well, so you can finish reassigning.

Really? I just tested the removePerk portion and I could choose the other just fine. Got into a fight with a female Raskvel and Disarmed her.
unclaimedClassPerks does return -1, but it doesn't actually seem to have any effect.