Do You think there should Fridging/"Redshirts" in the upcoming story bits in Coc2?

[Melancholy Man]

So I'm winding down a bit after a study session and I decide to throw on a 10min 90s anime action compilation to enjoy before I start again. I realize a lot of the action in the shows was spurred on by either revenge or retaliation for a character dying. It got me thinking if this would be a good story motivator and ramping up the stakes if characters we meet could die if choices or outcomes were different or failed.
For those who don't know Frigding is a sexist trope in TV, film, etc. in which a female character is killed at the start to give a male character the chance to avenge her; also called WiR (Women in Refrigerators). It's bs because guys have been getting killed off for character motivation for years but that's beside the point.
Fridging is named after a 1994 Green Lantern comic in which the hero returns home to find that his nemesis, Major Force, has murdered his girlfriend Alexandra DeWitt, and stuffed her corpse into a fridge. Sometimes comics don't fuck around. And Redshirt is a character in a story whose sole dramatic purpose is to get killed to raise the dramatic stakes or drive home the danger and threat of something.
Now how I'm connecting all this is probably me just looking into things that aren't really there. Like the weapons crate, we get from BK and her goons we can gift to either Garth -a gift to Hawkthrone- or Strenghten our Keep at Wayford, and the fact that we keep getting options to send very strong ppl to Wayford has got me thinking that if there's an overworld event that checks settlement strength. We might see some fallout from how this event playout like the disappearance of long-established characters or victories and celebrations.

You can't say I'm edgy because the recent Ryn quest involves magic mushroom cancer which honestly looks like chemical warfare, Again I might just be projecting what I want to see but would it be such bad of a thing?

 

[Gardeford]

We will not be killing off random characters people like in the porn game. That's incredibly dumb and there's a reason Fridging is usually seen as a bad trope.

 

[Emerald]

Fridging is an extremely bad trope to follow, much less do. Even TV Tropes uses it in a bad light because it usually always involves killing off characters for no real reason other than said "drama"/to move the plot when there are many better reasons that can be achieved compared to just potentially offing faves. (it doesn't help that a lot of those instances are women ala love interests, which is unfortunately very common, but either way, speaking in general)

After all I really feel like driving a character's motivation could be done without that. Not saying it can't be done well, it's a trope, and tropes can be avoided or even done well, but most of the time it isn't and is just an excuse to kill x or y.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Fridging is an extremely bad trope to follow, much less do. Even TV Tropes uses it in a bad light because it usually always involves killing off characters for no real reason other than said "drama"/to move the plot when there are many better reasons that can be achieved compared to just potentially offing faves. (it doesn't help that a lot of those instances are women ala love interests, which is unfortunately very common, but either way, speaking in general)

After all I really feel like driving a character's motivation could be done without that. Not saying it can't be done well, it's a trope, and tropes can be avoided or even done well, but most of the time it isn't and is just an excuse to kill x or y.

Really? I can think of multiple of the top of the dome: Gandolf the Grey, the puppy from John Wick, Eren's Mother from Attack on Titan, Athelstan from Vikings, Bruce's Parents from Batman, Obiwan in Star Wars, and Gomora and the various other ppl in Avengers Infinity War. The troupe isn't bad it's how they use it and how it effects the MC or related character.

 

[Melancholy Man]

We will not be killing off random characters people like in the porn game. That's incredibly dumb and there's a reason Fridging is usually seen as a bad trope.

How would it be dumb? Why not have consequences that account for your actions throughout the game? Sure ppl are going to be mad but as long as it's done fairly they would have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[Gardeford]

Really? I can think of multiple of the top of the dome: Gandolf the Grey, the puppy from John Wick, Eren's Mother from Attack on Titan, Athelstan from Vikings, Bruce's Parents from Batman, Obiwan in Star Wars, and Gomora and the various other ppl in Avengers Infinity War. The troupe isn't bad it's how they use it and how it effects the MC or related character.

Gomora is the only one of those examples that's actually fridging... 2 of those characters don't actually even die, and the puppy, batmans parents, and erens mom are all backstory elements rather than fridges. they werent established characters before being killed. I havent seen vikings but on a brief wiki lookup that one also seems to just be a character death and not a fridge.

How would it be dumb? Why not have consequences that account for your actions throughout the game? Sure ppl are going to be mad but as long as it's done fairly they would have no one to blame but themselves.

Because there's 0 actual benefit to making our players mad in that fashion. literally nothing to be gained by killing characters like that. This isn't a game about death, it's a game about sex.

 

[HK-47]

Fridging is an extremely bad trope to follow, much less do. Even TV Tropes uses it in a bad light because it usually always involves killing off characters for no real reason other than said "drama"/to move the plot when there are many better reasons that can be achieved compared to just potentially offing faves. (it doesn't help that a lot of those instances are women ala love interests, which is unfortunately very common, but either way, speaking in general)

After all I really feel like driving a character's motivation could be done without that. Not saying it can't be done well, it's a trope, and tropes can be avoided or even done well, but most of the time it isn't and is just an excuse to kill x or y.

Not to mention it that it also frequently coincides with the ‘Bury your gays‘ trope.

Fridging is lazy and problematic. Let’s not

 

[PalletTown]

My take on this is that death wouldn't necessarily be out of place in CoC II, it would be a awkward to fit it in. Now that is not to say that mess up stuff doesn't happen, several characters have had messed up deaths, lives, and afterlives. However, most of these happen way before the character's involvement. In my estimation of the game, CoC II is more of a post eldritch horror game where the unspeakable horrors have already happened and you're there to clean it up.

So instead of the PC coming across a village being slaughtered, it would be more like this village was wiped out centuries ago, the villagers have been kidnapped and you have to save them, the villagers have been turned into demons, or the villagers have been hooked up to eternal sex machines or whatever.

 

[Gardeford]

My take on this is that death wouldn't necessarily be out of place in CoC II, it would be a awkward to fit it in. Now that is not to say that mess up stuff doesn't happen, several characters have had messed up deaths, lives, and afterlives. However, most of these happen way before the character's involvement. In my estimation of the game, CoC II is more of a post eldritch horror game where the unspeakable horrors have already happened and you're there to clean it up.

So instead of the PC coming across a village being slaughtered, it would be more like this village was wiped out centuries ago, the villagers have been kidnapped and you have to save them, the villagers have been turned into demons, or the villagers have been hooked up to eternal sex machines or whatever.

Death in general isnt out of place, but killing off one of the sexable characters just to make the player feel bad is. There's no need to push the champ in that way because they already intend to resolve the issue. killing off a character in that way would provide no impetus that doesnt already exist, and would just be a dick move.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Fridging is lazy and problematic. Let’s not

Nah

Gomora is the only one of those examples that's actually fridging... 2 of those characters don't actually even die, and the puppy, batmans parents, and erens mom are all backstory elements rather than fridges. they werent established characters before being killed. I havent seen vikings but on a brief wiki lookup that one also seems to just be a character death and not a fridge.

Whether they are established, given backstories beforehand or after death, and even brought back doesn't change the function their death played. They were used to further the story in some way whether it be; as motivation for the cast, proving, or escalating drama/tension.
Bruce's parents dying gave him that push to be the Dark Knight, something they tirelessly preach. Gandolf "dying" to the Balrog is what hardens the fellowship and highlights some character dynamics in the group. Eren's mom was shown before and after her death to be the chief stabilizing factor in his life and her death was a wake-up call to him in hindsight.

Death in general isnt out of place, but killing off one of the sexable characters just to make the player feel bad is. There's no need to push the champ in that way because they already intend to resolve the issue. killing off a character in that way would provide no impetus that doesnt already exist, and would just be a dick move.

Notice I stressed that it should possible for them to die, meaning it's preventable. You'd care a lot more about your decisions if you knew the character/s you liked would die if you screwed up. It would add to that dramatic tension. But I understand if you guys wouldn't do that, since if it isn't done right it can throw off some ppl.

So instead of the PC coming across a village being slaughtered, it would be more like this village was wiped out centuries ago, the villagers have been kidnapped and you have to save them, the villagers have been turned into demons, or the villagers have been hooked up to eternal sex machines or whatever.

Personally, I like going to the crime scene and seeing what's what. Maybe find survivors or figure out what happened, get into horny hijinks or edgy situations. I loved those moments in Skyrim and Witcher. But I see what you're saying, I just like being in the mix, and not being told something was horrible by a 3rd party.

 

[hawke56]

Whether they are established, given backstories beforehand or after death, and even brought back doesn't change the function their death played. They were used to further the story in some way whether it be; as motivation for the cast, proving, or escalating drama/tension.
Bruce's parents dying gave him that push to be the Dark Knight, something they tirelessly preach. Gandolf "dying" to the Balrog is what hardens the fellowship and highlights some character dynamics in the group. Eren's mom was shown before and after her death to be the chief stabilizing factor in his life and her death was a wake-up call to him in hindsight.

No, Backstory deaths and Firding are two very different things. Batmans parents dying for example is the event that starts the enitre story. It's the beginning of the story. Without it the story never happens.
Fridging is when a character that actually has been around during a good portion of the story (at least as a side character) gets killed to add (most of the times cheap) cheap drama in the form of giving the protagonist something to angst over. Often it's pretty pointless as well since the results usuallly are for the protagonist to go and fight the antagonist of the story. Something that the protagonist would in most cases have done anyway. Only now they can do it while being extra angry or extra depressed, depending on the flavor of angst the author wants to go for.

Also Gandalf doesn't count as fridging. For one his death actually serves a purpose other than adding drama and motivating the other members of the fellowship. Namely it is a heroic Sacrifice that allows the others to escape. Also he revives at the start of the next book, which is maybe a few weeks later and then continues to do relevant stuff.

As for the general question: No I don't think it is a good Idea to kill of any characters. Tonally it would be very weird when most of the game is basically a light hearted adventure story with lots of sex, where the worst thing that usually happens to people is surprise buttsex (Which in universe everyone takes pretty lightly most of the time).
Now granted when it is a preventable death that only happens if you make wrong choices it would be ok, as long as the steps to ensure their suvival are either easily indentifiable instead of some random obscure BS. (For example I don't want some stupid nonsene like Hethia dying in mid game because during the dog days quest at the start of the game you annoyed her while talking with her).

 

[Kingu2]

As for the general question: No I don't think it is a good Idea to kill of any characters. Tonally it would be very weird when most of the game is basically a light hearted adventure story with lots of sex, where the worst thing that usually happens to people is surprise buttsex (Which in universe everyone takes pretty lightly most of the time).

I agree with the point about killing characters but getting raped is far and away from the worst thing that usually happens to people in this universe. It might be what usually happens to the PC but that really depends on who you end up losing to. The worst thing that usually happens to people is they get enlaved for the rest of their lives or they get their soul raped out of there bodies by some kind of demon and turned into one themselves. This game is more of a dark fantasy than a lighthearted adventure.

 

[HK-47]

@Melancholy Man “Nah” what?

Nah it’s not lazy and problematic? Because that shit is the widely acknowledged consensus, based on even the most cursory examination of the trope.

Nah it doesn’t frequently coincide with the ‘Bury your gays’ trope? Because that isn’t opinion, that’s objective fact.

 

[Melancholy Man]

No, Backstory deaths and Firding are two very different things. Batmans parents dying for example is the event that starts the enitre story. It's the beginning of the story. Without it the story never happens.
Fridging is when a character that actually has been around during a good portion of the story (at least as a side character) gets killed to add (most of the times cheap) cheap drama in the form of giving the protagonist something to angst over. Often it's pretty pointless as well since the results usuallly are for the protagonist to go and fight the antagonist of the story. Something that the protagonist would in most cases have done anyway. Only now they can do it while being extra angry or extra depressed, depending on the flavor of angst the author wants to go for.

Also Gandalf doesn't count as fridging. For one his death actually serves a purpose other than adding drama and motivating the other members of the fellowship. Namely it is a heroic Sacrifice that allows the others to escape. Also he revives at the start of the next book, which is maybe a few weeks later and then continues to do relevant stuff.

Brov you suffering from doublethink really fucking hard lmao.
Fridging is a death that serves to motivate the cast or a character and adds drama, which you defined yourself and then gave it a backhand by saying it's cheap drama. Fridging is a troupe and like all tropes can be done well or shite. Berserk is another legendary series that legit goes through a 100-chapter flashback to kill off an entire cast's worth of character to justify and motivate Guts (the protagonist) to seek vengeance. And it's done really fucking well, you should read it if you have the time.

@HK-47 brov I can't understand you if you don't explain your point, what is this "bury your gays" troupe, it's the first time I've heard about it. You just said "it's problematic" with no explanation so I'm just guh say "Nah" with no explanation.

 

[HK-47]

@HK-47 brov I can't understand you if you don't explain your point, what is this "bury your gays" troupe, it's the first time I've heard about it. You just said "it's problematic" with no explanation so I'm just guh say "Nah" with no explanation.

Here’s a decent explanation of the ‘bury your gays’ trope: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BuryYourGays

As for why it’s problematic, see Emerald’s post above, as that is a good summation. Fridging almost always reduces established female (and/or LGBTQ) characters into character progression vehicles for their male (and/or straight) main character friend/partner/etc, and eliminates them from the story in often horrifying ways in the process, reducing their entire character arc to solely serving as the aforementioned character progression vehicle for the MC. Reducing those characters to that is gross (not to mention lazy), and pretty much always indicates bigoted attitudes on the part of the writer.

Honestly, I didn’t think I really needed to explain why the obviously problematic trope is problematic, hence why I didn’t

 

[Melancholy Man]

As for why it’s problematic, see Emerald’s post above, as that is a good summation. Fridging almost always reduces established female (and/or LGBTQ) characters into character progression vehicles for their male (and/or straight) main character friend/partner/etc, and eliminates them from the story in often horrifying ways once they’ve served that purpose.

First things first, take the sexism out of this because men get killed off more often than chicks for motivation, it is just seen as a positive or a "passing the torch" moment.

Honestly, I didn’t think I really needed to be explain why the obviously problematic trope is problematic, hence why I didn’t

Not everyone is going to know your jargon, that's why I give the standard definition and then my version of it so you know exactly what I'm talking about and join the convo without being clueless.

And yeah it was a thing but I didn't care, I grew up Christian so I thought nothing of it.

 

[HK-47]

First things first, take the sexism out of this because men get killed off more often than chicks for motivation, it is just seen as a positive or a "passing the torch" moment.

Not everyone is going to know your jargon, that's why I give the standard definition and then my version of it so you know exactly what I'm talking about and join the convo without being clueless.

And yeah it was a thing but I didn't care, I grew up Christian so I thought nothing of it.

Nah, don’t think I will. It is a frequently misogynistic trope because more often than not when it’s used that is what it reduces female characters to, simple character progression vehicles for their male partners. You really can’t take the sexism out of that.

Also, trying to argue that the death of background male characters (eg Ben Parker, Thomas Wayne) or heroic sacrifices (eg Gandalf, Obi-Wan Kenobi) are somehow the same as fridging established characters is really not the winning argument you seem to think it is. Bit more comically missing the point, but it’s about what I expected based on how this thread has gone.

As to your upbringing, that’s not really relevant or an excuse, but sure, alright.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Nah, don’t think I will. It is a frequently misogynistic trope because more often than not when it’s used that is what it reduces female characters to, simple character progression vehicles for their male partners. You really can’t take the sexism out of that.

Agree to disagree then because it's a mote point both sexes get done dirty so in my eyes no one is done dirty.
Weird that you'd say that when Christian values are specifically what motivated the "Bury the Gays" troupe according to the link you sent but whatever.
We're missing the forest for the tree here, is it a good thing to kill off characters for the sake of drama and interesting character development?

 

[HK-47]

Because what constitutes “growing up Christian” can vary immensely depending on denomination or specific church or even personal interpretation. That, however, is a whole can of worms we do not need to get into.

As to the original point, I’m pretty sure the consensus is no. Not really sure why you’re thirsting so hard for it in what is largely a light-hearted porn game, even if it does edge into darker territory on occasion. It’s just not that kind of game. If you want that kind of game, best go looking elsewhere.

 

[PalletTown]

This is less of a debate and more of a piss off Savin any percent run. Look, everyone already said their piece, the thread is veering wildly off topic, and we are starting to get into iffy territory. We should just sit back and let this thread sag.

 

[Emerald]

Not everyone is going to know your jargon, that's why I give the standard definition and then my version of it so you know exactly what I'm talking about and join the convo without being clueless.

That's not "jargon" tho, it's actually a very very common and well-known trope. You just happen to be the few that don't know what it means. I'm not super well-versed in my tropes and even then Bury Your Gays throws a red flag up in my brain to avoid. Your upbringing regarding religion means nothing with that as it has nothing to do with it.

Example: Voltron, those that do know the context will be going "oh hell no" to that name. It's a prime example of "Bury Your Gays" and people still hate the show for it..

Anyways I feel like you have no real idea what "fridging" means as a trope because I think it's really weird that you take people explaining "Fridging usually applies to female characters to fuel manpain" and call it sexist just because male characters die out too. That's not the point, male characters dying to progress the plot withough any real reason is not as common as female characters doing so is the thing. Nobody's saying male characters don't die all the time. Examples others brought up that have been said and the consensus is a hard "no so stop trying to push it."

I think this topic is not only going out of line but also because OP is getting heated over a topic they brought up. Like you got your answer, you refuse to listen to people. What's the point of this other than going "no ur wrong lol"?

 

[Ria Brew]

This all seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of what fridging entails. Generally a character(generally female) is "fridged" when they had little to no character development before their death and only die because the hero (generally male) needs a push, especially in cases where you could give the hero the so called call-to-arms via means that don't require having their girlfriend murdered and shoved into a refridgerator. The roots of the trope are literally born from misogynistic comic book trend, not a term that was co-opted for any kind of agenda.

Several of the examples listed aren't even fridging because they're characters with a lot of development and play a key central role to the story. Two big ones being Gandalf and Obiwan. Gandalf plays a huge role throughout the first movie, from helping guide the hobbits, to the council of the ring and the establishment of the fellowship, providing world lore for the more naive characters, etc. His "death" doesn't motivate any characters to do something they weren't already in the process of doing. In fact it has a rather damaging effect on the characters, particularly frodo. Obiwan straight up fills the textbook role of "The Mentor" in the hero's journey, helping the MC to "cross the threshold". He already had a profound impact on Luke long before his death, and played a vital role of establishing context for the Jedi to the MC and audience alike. And even after his death he continues to act as the mentor for Luke throughout the movies, just in a more backseat sense.

 

[Gardeford]

Dude you cant just ask a question about a common trope, describe the trope wrong and bring up examples that dont fit the trope, and then say its your version of the trope. Or i guess you can, but it just ends up making you look stupid...

 

[Loveless]

This all seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of what fridging entails. Generally a character(generally female) is "fridged" when they had little to no character development before their death and only die because the hero (generally male) needs a push...

Eh, Fridging can happen to important characters too; it's mostly based on how it's executed.

Using this game and let's say, Cait as an example: a noble death would be her fighting tooth and nail against a horde of cultists as we escape and dying from her injuries afterwards (I'm not saying this would be a good writing decision, I'm just making an example).


Fridging would be Cait getting caught in an explosion while chasing Tollus and dying.


Also I'd like to point out even if you switch Cait with someone else the point still stands, the reason Fridging is seen as a sexist trope is because it often happens to the male hero's love interests to serve as motivation.

 

[SmithEK]

Never even heard of it. But tbh I'd rather not kill off my companions.

 

[Loveless]

Since he mentioned "Redshirts" I'm guessing he means killing off random nobodies, like most people in Khorminos(I'm sorry that was mean). But yeah, I don't think we need such an artificial way to make us hate the Cult more, they are hateable enough I think; and having Kas do some atrocities, while character appropriate, would also ruin the more "charming" way the game presents her as.

Maybe if we have a second Godswar and a bunch of wraiths get released, that could be a way to show how much more dangerous than demons the wraiths are, because honestly most demons are relegated to the fodder position; but I'm not sure I would enjoy this game taking a hard turn towards such grimdarkness.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Fridging would be Cait getting caught in an explosion while chasing Tollus and dying.

That would be redshirting, Redshirts are for when a character is killed off for the explicit purpose of being killed for drama escalation; think the extras in AOT or extras in movies or characters that have only been on screen for like ten minutes. It's usually a bad idea to have a character with a lot of plot build-up be killed off frivolously because it feels anti-cathartic.

Cait as an example: a noble death would be her fighting tooth and nail against a horde of cultists as we escape and dying from her injuries afterwards (I'm not saying this would be a good writing decision, I'm just making an example).

This is Fridging with the addition of being a noble sacrifice, is when a character is killed off and used for motivating the cast/character

Since he mentioned "Redshirts" I'm guessing he means killing off random nobodies, like most people in Khorminos(I'm sorry that was mean). But yeah, I don't think we need such an artificial way to make us hate the Cult more, they are hateable enough I think; and having Kas do some atrocities, while character appropriate, would also ruin the more "charming" way the game presents her as.

Bro everybody rapes in this game to the point that it's normal, Slavery too, the antagonist doing it does not make them antagonists in my eyes, they have to be worst.
You can have her do things but just have her enable others instead of her indulging in the carnage directly, that way she's still involved but she's at an arm's length.

@Gardeford @Ria Brew @HK-47 @Emerald All I've seen you do is side-step the fact that fridging is unisex, and just regurgitate that its misogyny. It has been Unisex for 1000s of years; the Epic of Gilgamesh has a man embarking on a vengeance spree against his gods for his male friend, In the Odyssey and Troy Patroclus dies and Achilles breaks his vow not to participate in the war for the explicit purpose of fucking up Prince Hector (Patroclus's killer), I can go on... but this guy does it better than I could.

 

[Loveless]

Bro everybody rapes in this game to the point that it's normal, Slavery too, the antagonist doing it does not make them antagonists in my eyes, they have to be worst.
You can have her do things but just have her enable others instead of her indulging in the carnage directly, that way she's still involved but she's at an arm's length.

We see The Cult do horrible things like use teenagers as human shields and mentaly rape people using a captured slave(The Lureling). Kas is the direct cause of everything in Winter City and The Centaur Camp (and probably Khorminos too) I don't think we need more confirmation that she is horrible.

But my actual point was that despite all of that the game never decides your Champion's opinion on Kas for you, I mean your first introduction to her is to fight her or fuck her. And even if you are hostile to her at first you can immediatly have a friendly conversation when you meet her next time, even have sex. Neither the characters nor the game ever call you out for your decisions regarding Kas ever (For good reason too, there are a lot of people willing to look past all that and even more who find her evilness hot). If the game decided to make Kas do something unforgiveable, Kas as a character would have to go from the suave, easy to enjoy demon baddie, to the angsty "I can fix her"/ "I can make her worse" type (if it even gets there, it might not depending on how bad the crime is).

Think about it like the difference between Griffith and Femto. You can like start of the Golden Age Griffith even through all the red flags. You have to make an active effort not to despise Femto.

 

[Savin]

Stop wasting space with these pointless-ass polls please.