Deployable Turret Nerf Thoughts and Questions

[Theron]

In the interest of not derailing the Gripes thread, I thought I'd start a dedicated topic.

It's definitely a big nerf, but I haven't had too much trouble as a Tech Specialist without deploying multiple Turrets in combat.

What combats do you need it for?
What Perks did you take and what equipment are you using? It may be that something needs a buff.
If it's to bring it more in line with Overclock, maybe Overclock needs a buff. It kind of stinks right now. (Net +1 attack over it's duration & 5% Evasion, really?)

That said, I do have concerns about it's long-term durability. If you can't have more than one, what about the ability to repair it for an Energy cost?
Or a more general change: The ability to use Shield Boosters on allies. Maybe a MK 3 Shield Booster, too.

 

[Skunkupine]

As I said in another post: what if the turrets required Steele to have the parts to make them; those parts to be acquired by successful wins, and multiple wins required to make a turret? Then in a hard battle the player can spam turrets, but then is going to have to win many battles to replenish Steele's store of parts. That keeps the player from just spamming turrets in every battle.

 

[bunny931]

As I said in another post: what if the turrets required Steele to have the parts to make them; those parts to be acquired by successful wins, and multiple wins required to make a turret? Then in a hard battle the player can spam turrets, but then is going to have to win many battles to replenish Steele's store of parts. That keeps the player from just spamming turrets in every battle.

That seems rather abusable. You could just farm low level fodder for the turrets, and then proceed to trivialize every "hard" fight.
The nerf isn't there to prevent the player from stacking turrets in every battle. I assume, it's to stop turret stacking from trivializing what are supposed to be "harder" fights.

How long does one deployable turret last for you folks, in the harder fights you've had?

 

[MarcoPolo121]

My suggestion, then as now, is make the turrets multi-model. Let them use a variety of weapons suited to different enemies. Lust bombs for teasable enemies, gatling guns for large groups, missiles for heavy infantry or monsters, EMPs for machines or robots, etc. That way, you can make it so while only one turret can be on the field, said turret is the only one you need for that fight.

 

[Theron]

That seems rather abusable. You could just farm low level fodder for the turrets, and then proceed to trivialize every "hard" fight.

There could be a limit to how many parts you could have at a time. And if some of the random encounters are 'hard', you'd have a difficult time stockpiling.

Which is why I asked which fights is the ability to deploy multiple turrets mandatory? What other perks did people take? I was hoping to collect some data.

 

[bunny931]

There could be a limit to how many parts you could have at a time. And if some of the random encounters are 'hard', you'd have a difficult time stockpiling.

Which is why I asked which fights is the ability to deploy multiple turrets mandatory? What other perks did people take? I was hoping to collect some data.

I don't think it is ever mandatory...

The perk feels weak as it is now (I still think it better than overclock on paper but I haven't tested it much), but from the description alone, it reads like it was meant mostly for defensive purposes from the start... Maybe later, we can get some perk or something that will buff the turret to do more damage, and/or possibly switch weapon-type as MarcoPolo mentioned. Though, I do wonder how techie will compete with the other classes in the future... It is worrying, maybe...

 

[Skunkupine]

I pretty much only use them in the big mob fights where lust attacks are less successful, mostly to act as bullet-sponges to keep the attacks off Steele.

 

[Jn_Sinnombre]

A big thing of having many turrets was how flexible it could rather be, all of the classes have their own little niche, of course some niches are better than others and this wasn't the case with turrets techie which was less optimal than shield techie in my opinion.

The fun of Drone Techie was being this weird swiss knife who pulled drones out of their ass to act as distractions or more damage dealers, it's more or less outright the whole identity of the class, it certaintly doesn't help this feature was in the class since ever and taking it away removes a LOT of the flexibility regarding it, it's not about necessarily "oh we just need to buff or nerf specific things" it's more about making a little drone army was part of the fun and charm of playing Drone Techie, the nerf takes this flexibiliy edge away and very hard, it just takes the fun factor away just because, even though Shield Techie was the more optimal niche of the class.


If the concern is nerfing the class (even though I think thats incredibly unecessary and rather uncalled for) I think a compromise would be making the turrets/drones more easier to destroy for the enemies and give a cooldown for the drone before it can get back up and start dealing damage again.

Which is why I asked which fights is the ability to deploy multiple turrets mandatory?

Sophora,, Encounters with more than 2 enemies, Selene & Neil feel like you kinda to use more than one drone to have a easier time handling stuff, it's not necessarily mandatory but it makes it less of a chore when dealing with their bullshit

That seems rather abusable. You could just farm low level fodder for the turrets, and then proceed to trivialize every "hard" fight.

I mean... let's be honest TITS coment is abusable for everyone and everything lmao, you can skip to level 6 in under 7 in-game days if you go to Uveto through T1KA and get a OP weapon that makes Myrelion a joke, you just have to fight 1 Korgonne and you are all good.

(Name was for a joke speedrun to fuck Frostywyrm)

Outside of Phaedra and Sophora it's uh really not that hard, you can always beat the Wexxtrafuck for some xp grinding which I might add is quite reccomended, like the Zk Rifle can be used until Zheng Shi.

 

[Fullgames]

The nerf was justified, it was kind of stupid that you could spam turrets in a fight. Thanks to being able to carry power potions now, you could have more than 10 turrets in a fight even against weaker enemies, it didn't make sense for that to be a thing. Still, I believe the turret should be buffed now, since by itself it's relatively weak, it's more like a decoy than an actual threat to the enemies and it doesn't even seem to scale with anything.

 

[Fullgames]

Also, Overclock doesn't suck, it's actually quite strong, one extra attack combined with second attack and charge weapon let's you do a lot of damage per turn.

 

[Theron]

Overclock is 1 extra attack over 4 rounds (you make no attacks on the round you activate it). 2 if you don't have Second Attack/Shot/Second Striker. 0+3+3+3 vs 2+2+2+2 vs 1+1+1+1
The bonus attack is made at full accuracy, at least. It's mostly useful if the enemy can heal, and you need to burst them down.

Being able to spawn a 200 Shield/200 Health ally is really strong, especially since Techs automatically get Shields back any time they aren't attacked. The damage is probably secondary. Multiples increases survivability non-linearly. It would be good even if they did no damage at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if this had something to do with the encounters they're testing in the Train dungeon. If so, it's probably better they nerf now and tune encounters with this limitation in mind.

A big thing of having many turrets was how flexible it could rather be, all of the classes have their own little niche, of course some niches are better than others and this wasn't the case with turrets techie which was less optimal than shield techie in my opinion.

The turret doesn't actually scale with Attack Drone or Drone Control. There was a plan to make Drone Accessoires creatures in combat. I don't know what happened to that, or how AD or DC would have had to be changed to accommodate it.

 

[Fullgames]

As I said, the turret work's more like a decoy and I don't think it working like this fits with a Tech specialist, a decoy should be more of a smuggler's thing since that class works more on subterfuge. The turret should be more of damage dealer even more so now that you can only have one, maybe have it's own set of abilities which you can use like different types of attack. As for Overclock it's one extra attack that can proc stun if you are using a weapon that has stun chance, but maybe it should be a toggeable that doesn't consume a turn or energy to activate but instead consumes energy everytime you attack.

 

[Theron]

A decoy would make sense for Smugglers, but they already have Stealth Field Generator for that.

Do people find the Tech has more of a survivability problem, or damage problem? Granted, those can be linked.

 

[bunny931]

I think the fairer comparison assumes one techie uses the deployable, while the other uses overclock. So, it would be 0+2+2+2 vs 0+3+3+3, which is three more attacks in total. Assuming the deployable survives the four rounds, it would do enough damage to be the equivalent of another hit?

 

[Theron]

Assuming truly random targeting, enemies have a 50% chance to target the turret (doing no damage to you) for as long as the turret lasts. It's a much larger boost to survivability than +5% Evasion for 4 rounds.

 

[bunny931]

Then, just say that, that it's the better defensive option. The 2*4 vs 3*3 comparison is just weird, because it assumes the deployable isn't being used.

 

[Theron]

The Overclock thing is it's own tangent. I'm not convinced it's worth it, even if we ignore Deployable Turret. I can think of maybe 2-3 fights where you need the extra burst. Maybe that will change on Phaedra.

But that's a different topic.

 

[Fullgames]

I don't think I need more survivability on Tech, Tech it's the most tanky class in the game, I have so much shields that rarely do enemies deal damage to my health bar, I am more likely to lose by lust than by taking damage, and I have the attack drone perk, if I had Shield booster I would be even more tanky.

 

[Jn_Sinnombre]

The nerf was justified, it was kind of stupid that you could spam turrets in a fight. Thanks to being able to carry power potions now, you could have more than 10 turrets in a fight even against weaker enemies, i

Personally that was exactly part of the fun, being able to doomstack into this army of drones, every class has their own in-built "unga bunga" strategy and Techie was that, survival by attrition because the longer the battle goes on, even more drones start popping up like clockwork machinery or shield is this largely untouched and with shield boosters.

All of the classes have their own "press X to win" bullshit, Merc has Sturm and Drang, Kineticist has Entropy Whip and Vortex Brand, Smuggler has Sneak Attack, and so forth which makes it more enjoyable.

As I said, the turret work's more like a decoy and I don't think it working like this fits with a Tech specialist, a decoy should be more of a smuggler's thing since that class works more on subterfuge.

I disagree, i don't think that is a issue at all.

Tech Specialist was always this odd jack of all trades. it can be a massive damage dealer but Merc ends fights way faster, It can have decoys but Smuggler has way more efficient ways of setting up damage and diverting it, it's really not that big of a deal and they could just remove aggro towards the drones so the enemy only focuses on attacking you, it's this Swiss Knife which can be tanky, go all out, or throw random bullshit, it has all niches but it's overall less specialized in everything although with a main focus on tanking, OR make the turret spam have a turn cooldown of 1 turn or 2.

Do people find the Tech has more of a survivability problem, or damage problem? Granted, those can be linked.

Yes and No.

Tech Specialist doesn't have a survivability or damage problem IF you focus on the shield version, and that's a big part of the issue! Drone Techie has practically nothing on the perk tree.

The nerf makes the Turret perk lose a good chunk of it's damage output, hell it kinda was the entire reason of why Drone!Techie was fun in the first place and practically the only reason was for the army of turret doomstack because there's literally ONLY 2 perks (outisde the attack drone) that is related with drone techie, it was pretty much the only fun toy Drone Techie had (disconsidering Siegwulfe and Tam-Wolf, who are available to everyone)

The nerf doesn't necessarily change much because ideally and most optimally you don't even touch the drone perks because shield is just hilariously better and has more synergy, but to Drone Techies especially it just destroys a good part of why you should even bother taking the turret perk in the first place, it still has use but pre-nerf was just so much more fun and better.

 

[Fenoxo]

As I said in another post: what if the turrets required Steele to have the parts to make them; those parts to be acquired by successful wins, and multiple wins required to make a turret? Then in a hard battle the player can spam turrets, but then is going to have to win many battles to replenish Steele's store of parts.

Having to farm in order to fight bosses isn't fun game design, and I try to avoid it when possible. Granted "fun" can be subjective, but I design to my taste.

I pretty much only use them in the big mob fights where lust attacks are less successful, mostly to act as bullet-sponges to keep the attacks off Steele.

Assuming truly random targeting, enemies have a 50% chance to target the turret (doing no damage to you) for as long as the turret lasts. It's a much larger boost to survivability than +5% Evasion for 4 rounds.

This is it right here. The turret is incredibly valuable as a survival tool. I have been leveling up test classes for the upcoming train dungeon explicitly because my main test save was a dronetech, and the turret makes him so insanely survivable. It eats hits that might otherwise incapacitate the player, not just from damage but statuses too. Not only does it provide a steady source of damage on its own, but it allows you a 50% chance to not even be targeted by stuns, blinds, etc.

but to Drone Techies especially it just destroys a good part of why you should even bother taking the turret perk in the first place, it still has use but pre-nerf was just so much more fun and better.

What it does is make it an actual choice again. There's zero reason to take any other ability when you can crap 2-3 extra buddies on the battlefield without much work, let alone what you can pull off with consumable restoratives.

 

[MarcoPolo121]

Soooo does this mean there are no plans to buff or improve the turrets themselves? They exist purely to be bullet sponges?

 

[Theron]

My concern is turret scaling. As a static NPC, it's ability to take hits for Steele decreases as the enemies get stronger. It's damage doesn't increase, either.

I think the ability to fix the turret or use Shield Boosters on it would help.

 

[Jn_Sinnombre]

This is it right here. The turret is incredibly valuable as a survival tool. I have been leveling up test classes for the upcoming train dungeon explicitly because my main test save was a dronetech, and the turret makes him so insanely survivable. It eats hits that might otherwise incapacitate the player, not just from damage but statuses too. Not only does it provide a steady source of damage on its own, but it allows you a 50% chance to not even be targeted by stuns, blinds, etc.

Wouldn't it be better to remove aggro from turrets if that would be possible? as in the enemies would just focus on gunning down on you instead of the other non-stop armada of turrets? and following this logic of making it too survivable wouldn't this logic just go "turret is dead, stun, make a new one" repeat ad infinium till he dies? you still wouldn't need a lot of work anyway till he dies.

Or go "nuh uh" and just restore health if its too low before a certain turn count?

What it does is make it an actual choice again. There's zero reason to take any other ability when you can crap 2-3 extra buddies on the battlefield without much work, let alone what you can pull off with consumable restoratives.

I disagree with this a bit, because Overclock is still rather negligeable on the large scheme of things, even if it's only 1 turret it's still largely way more useful than 5+ evasion (and the attack, will get to that) because it's still just continuous damage instead of 5 turns buff, Tech really does not have a hard time keeping theirs shields if at all with the class more or less having the focus on tanking (hell, don't some strats even just abuse stuns and shields just to make the enemies instantly die with Bimboleum or Salamander Defense system?) and a few perks that make stunning easier.

Yes, there is the additional attack but it's for like 5 turns while with Drone it's non-stop until it's dead (which by then, the fight will most certainly be over or on the road to that) so even if the Turrets got nerfed they still are largely better on the long run imo.

Overclock would still have overall less use compared to a practically guaranted damage source, I think it doesn't help that there really isn't a lot of perks that go well with Overclock since again, the class revolves around tanking and basically winning on conflicts through sheer attrition.

 

[bunny931]

A deployable turret would have to attack three times to be the equivalent of a single extra hit from overclock, by which time overclock has done 2 more hits worth of damage, so only at like the 8th to 10th turn would the turret begin to outdamage overclock's extra attacks, maybe. The turret also does not apply any effects, like your weapon's stun or freeze. With overclock, you also control the type of damage you are dealing based on your weapon, rather than the fixed type the turret does.
I can't remember if the deployable turret can crit, but if it can, is it even affected by Steele's crit chance? Because if not, that's another point for overclock being better offensively.

 

[Theron]

The Turret is armed with a Laser Carbine (but 15 damage? & 9 Accuracy) and has 35 Aim for 32.5 base damage.
I believe it can Crit, but testing took a while, and it wasn't specifically labeled as one.
Turret fires for as long as it's up. Haste runs out after 4 turns, whether you attack or not (need to Stand/escape a Grapple/activate a special ability).

Does the Turret need to be better than Overclock offensively? It's definitely better defensively. Ideally, you'd have a reason to pick either.

You know what might be fun? If you could upgrade/customize the Turret by giving it weapons from your inventory.