Confusion about souls and kitsune(Spoilers)

[Lettered]

As we see in the Garret/Garth questline, souls have personality, memories, ability, etc. But with the Kitsune and Demons, we see there's different ways for a body to exist without one. Now it's pretty clear that demons are Person Zombies. Glorified automatons. With kitsune, however, it comes across strangely.

We're told that it's a collective soul and if you offer up yours, the collective soul can be clearly added to. But Keros acts as if the soul is inconsequential to personhood with his cup and water metaphor. It seems contradictory or at the least insufficient so I have several questions relating to how a soul works. Hopefully somebody who understands this well can answer because I feel like I've missed something.

If he treats them as "dead inside" yet connected to a communal soul, what's the point of individuality?
Do kitsune have individuality or do they play pretend?
Is kitsune individuality and the communal soul like a fusion where many equally influence the collective?
Are kitsune bodies being remotely piloted from where ever their souls are or do the experiences and memories of the body never reach the soul?
If kitsune souls are wholly disconnected from the body and the experiences of the body don't matter to the soul, what's the point of the soul?
What about the souls of other races? Are they different? If so, how?
Were the ghosts you fight in the Garret/Garth questline just echoes or something?
If so, what's the purpose and function of a soul to begin with?

 

[The Observer]

Read the wiki, there's an article on it. Your conception of the idea is completely on its head.

 

[Lettered]

I see why I had such difficulty finding anything about souls. Nothing on the kitsune race page mentions being dead inside or the communal soul and when i searched "souls" i only found soul arrow the other night. Thanks for redirecting me though. This did answer a TON of my questions.

Ki/chi seems to be what I've been thinking of as a classical soul. So I want to make sure I'm getting this right.

Without a soul, ki/chi cannot mix and mingle with this "organ" and evaporates on death. Thus you, effectively, cease to exist. With a soul, ki/chi But in Keros' case, whenever a kitsune dies, that ki/chi automatically goes to join the communal soul organ, right?

In summary, souls are like a blank piece of paper and your personhood is the letters you'd inscribe upon it. Without the paper, there's nowhere for your "letters" to go but Keros prevented that happening to his people by having the soul preemptively in his grasp.

Am I getting this right? I apologize for my odd questions.

As a side question, I've noticed that the player soul got bigger over travels. I had a save where Keros took my soul to see what would happen and it seems to have grown in size. Is that level dependent?

 

[Lettered]

Without a soul, ki/chi cannot mix and mingle with this "organ" and evaporates on death. Thus you, effectively, cease to exist. With a soul, ki/chi moves onto the afterlife with it as one entity. But in Keros' case, whenever a kitsune dies, that ki/chi automatically goes to join the communal soul organ, right?

Sorry. It seems I forgot to finish my thought there.

 

[The Observer]

Without a soul, ki/chi cannot mix and mingle with this "organ" and evaporates on death. Thus you, effectively, cease to exist.

I don't know where you're getting this from.

But in Keros' case, whenever a kitsune dies, that ki/chi automatically goes to join the communal soul organ, right?

No, the soul is separate from either of these.

In summary, souls are like a blank piece of paper and your personhood is the letters you'd inscribe upon it. Without the paper, there's nowhere for your "letters" to go but Keros prevented that happening to his people by having the soul preemptively in his grasp.

No.

 

[Lettered]

So are ki and a soul just two halves of a greater whole that each provide different things? Does a soul matter at all beyond morality? Is ki really what makes you who you are and a soul is just another part of you? Do demons have afterlives despite not having souls?

Thank you for taking the time to answer, by the way. I appreciate it a lot.

 

[Violyn]

So, um... I went to this link https://wiki.smutosaur.us/CoC2/Souls_&_Spirits, don't know if you already ready it though.

So are ki and a soul just two halves of a greater whole that each provide different things?

They aren't halves of anything, they're their own thing. From what i gather, only your sense of empathy is bound to your soul. think of a psychopath as an example. psychopaths still have feelings, they just can't project those feelings and sense them on other people and understand them. And that seems to be how demons work. Thus why they don't give a shit about anything that they do to other people, they don't understand anymore what they're causing to others, the only thing that matters are their own feelings and desires.

The Ki is and i quote: "Ki, the spiritual aspect of a person -- their heart, mind, memory, and emotions", it doesn't seem to have anything related to empathy, your Ki is what defines the type of person you are, like your personality; it is what constitutes you, but it's not what makes you a whole person.

So, both soul and Ki are separate, BUT they work together in you, to make you what is considered "to be a person", because it doesn't matter if you have a soul, if you can't feel, think, and experience anything, and it doesn't matter if you have Ki, but doesn't have a soul to be able to relate to other live beings around you.

When you die, both soul and Ki mix together, and this mixed essence goes into the afterlife. When you find Jarl Gunvaldsen and other ghosts, those aren't souls that stayed behind, they are their Ki. as stated here: "In rare occasion, though, someone's Ki may remain behind on the mortal world, held back by some tremendous magical force. This creates what most folk would call ghosts, spirits, haunts, and the like."

So in short, everything makes you what you are. To be whole, you need everything (sounds kind of obvious when it's put like that i know). Everything matters for you to be a functioning person in society. Demons probably have Ki too btw, they just can't project the experience of having Ki onto other people, because they don't have a soul to have the ability of empathy.

Now, for the kitsune, they might not have a soul for themselves, but they still have Ki, so their individuality is still there perfectly fine, they didn't stop being who they were just because they don't have a soul, you can see that by just walking and interacting with the kitsune around the Kitsune Den, and just seeing events transpire. Now, you might think: "okie dokie, but despite that they don't have a soul, so are they just like demons? they don't have the ability of empathy?" And to that i say, not at all. after all, they might not have a soul on them, but they have their "communal soul" as stated by Keros, or even as Tobs said himself in another thread: "In Keros' case, it goes into the Hoshi no Tama, which is basically the agglomeration of every single soul of the kitsune people -- every one who has existed, exists, and as they come into existence, will join." (you can look those up if you want, just type kitsune in the search bar or look at his profile to see his comments). So, i imagine that, kitsune aren't really disconnected from their soul, it's just that it's someplace else, created by Keros to maintain. This final part does get a little harder for me, i haven't found on my own how exactly does the Hoshi no Tama works and how exactly do the kitsune keep their sense of empathy, but i'm almost sure it has a lot to do on how they maintain their society, or how they feed on energy, or something like that. Hope i'm not wrong.

 

[The Observer]

The essence of the Hoshi no Tama is that it's essentially a trade-off in the spirit of equivalent exchange. Through it, foxen gain aspects of demons -- true breeding, immunity to artificial transmutation save for direct divine intervention, etc, etc, etc. you can't cum out your soul if you don't have one. The downside is that they are forever dependent on draining the life-force -- the chi -- of others to maintain that link, and their entire society and relations with the other peoples who share their homeland and they rule over are dominated by their nature.

 

[Violyn]

Ah i see, now it's clicking. so they really are still connected to their souls, it's just not in their bodies anymore, and to maintain that connection - the link, as you may - they drain other people's chi. That is so well fucking written. I love that. thanks for clarifying this tid bit of info i was missing, feels really good to have the whole picture in my head!

 

[Lettered]

Ah, I see. So the soul is connected to the body still for Kitsune. It's just not housed within. That clears up the rest of my confusion. The cup metaphor, ki, and ghosts were really throwing me for a loop.

Thank you, both of you. I was worried about the effects on my character's personhood and collective consciousness.