Combat 2.0 Balance Suggestions

[Savin]

Since the new forum lacks a dedicated Balance Reports section...


With the new Combat 2.0 update, a lot of things changed for fights that used to be "gangs" of enemies, like the Deck 13 robots or the Phoenix pirates. If you bump into a fight that seems dramatically unbalanced for what level bracket it's supposed to be at, post it below. If you have any other combat balance suggestions, also post those! If you discover something wonky but not-a-bug, that too!


Note: this isn't the time to talk about big sweeping mechanical changes, like "Let's get rid of Energy and-" (though Energy/Health Regen and Resting are both getting some tweaks soon, I think).


I'll start out with what I've picked up already at a glance:

• Deck 13 robot fight is hilariously brutal ATM. Each individual bot seems about as strong as the old gang. Needs serious tweaking.
  
• Male Raskvel gang is still a gang fight rather than a proper group fight. Not sure if intentional.
  
• Same with the Nyrean Praetorians.
  
• Tech Specialist Disruptor type abilities should be converted to multi-target hits.
  
• Smuggler's Grenade abilities should probably be multi-target, too.
  

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

Goovolver needs a nerf, since it deals the highest amount of Lust damage, the stat bonus to that damage (which it shouldn't have at the first place) isn't split like on the bows and it works with flurry perks (but not with Second Shot for some reason).


Goozooka on the other hand doesn't scale at all and from my experience seems to have a lower chance to hit than a normal range attack. So it becomes useless just a couple of levels after you obtain it, although that may be totally fine.


Concussive Shot is too costly for what it does. I get that it's the only range option to stun people, but it seems to be far less reliable than other paralyzing or stunning abilities and the only advantage it has is dealing a normal attack worth of damage.


As an aside, I'd like to ask if enemies that act as hard counters to either melee or range builds will be more common going forward.

 

[Krynh]

I'll try it out later, but I have a feeling the second part of Saendra's quest when you have to take out the pirates on the station would be difficult. Especially considering the Disruptor currently works on only one enemy at a time.

 

[Couch]

Mercenary:


1. Power Strike needs to be bumped to 250% base attack damage at level 8 to remain useful.  I forget if Rapid Fire stacks with flurry, if it doesn't then it should.


2. The scattering grenade is supposed to be an AoE.  If it's not, something is wrong.


3. Cleave should probably be reworked.  Instead of the current mechanic, I recommend that it be changed so that when the player makes a melee attack, all other opponents in the battle are also hit for 25-50% of the damage dealt.  If Steele has flurry, proc it on both swings.


Basically ranged mercs are perfect, melee mercs need just a tiny bump at high levels to match.  Merc is a well-made class.


Smuggler:


1. Both grenades are supposed to be AoEs by their description.  If they're not, something is wrong.


Don't have much to offer here, I never play smugglers.


Tech Specialist:


Hoo boy.


1. Make Overcharge melee.  Have Overcharge's damage go up by 50% at level 8.  Otherwise remove Melee Tweaks, it's a trap feature if nothing else about techs can do melee.


2. Disruptors should be made AoE.


3. Techs need an Energy replenishment feature.  I'd even say change their current shield replenishment features to recover Energy together with the shield replenishment.


4. Weapon Hack and Shield Hack should be passives, you have too many active abilities.  I would replace Weapon Hack with a chance to disable enemy weapons that strike your shield and Shield Hack with upping the damage your attacks do to enemy shields.


I like the concept of techs, but they're a mess.  They need to add a couple of basic competences before I can even begin to judge balance.

 

[Lashcharge]

The Zil in Penny's office are also a gangfight.

 

[Etis]

Tech Specialist:


1. Make Overcharge melee.  Have Overcharge's damage go up by 50% at level 8.  Otherwise remove Melee Tweaks, it's a trap feature if nothing else about techs can do melee.


2. Disruptors should be made AoE.


3. Techs need an Energy replenishment feature.  I'd even say change their current shield replenishment features to recover Energy together with the shield replenishment.


4. Weapon Hack and Shield Hack should be passives, you have too many active abilities.  I would replace Weapon Hack with a chance to disable enemy weapons that strike your shield and Shield Hack with upping the damage your attacks do to enemy shields.


I like the concept of techs, but they're a mess.  They need to add a couple of basic competences before I can even begin to judge balance.

1) Robbing ranged Techs of Overcharge would be a nerf to ranged, since Volley is far inferior. Seriously, Blind vs Stun? It is obvious choise.
2) Disruptors... Gravidic one is actually interesting thing for it's unresistable damage. Thermal is totally redundant with burning weapons (i.e. all lasers). But they are both pure damage, so using them is battle is only justified if you are intending to either spam them to victory (impossible without massive boost to either disruptors power or energy source) or finish almost dead enemy and do damage to other.
3) Maybe even passive regeneration? Tech have potential to be highly defensive class.
4) Moreover, they are redundant. Shield hack does nearly as much damage as basic attack with burning weapon and less than basic attack with electric weapon, and there are no targets for weapon hack (and you fore some reason can't check enemy for his actual weapon type and disarm immunity without wasting turn).


Techs have problem of identity crisis. We have mercs for balanced offense and defense and smugglers for offense and control. This leaves tech either defence and control (to complete triangle) or something different. Their dependance on shields and focus of early perks are suggesting control and defence. Disruptors looks like some emergence skill to deal massive damage when in desperate need. Hacks are control again (falty ones, but still).


So... Options:
1) Totally remove hacks, move Overcharge to level 7, fill gaps with melee skills (it would be 4 melee and 4 ranged after this). This would make Tech another generic class.
2) Accept Tech as sort of sci-fi black mage. Overhaul level 5/6/7 perks to be actually useful for defensive style, give something to fight lust immune enemies (actually, they are mostly robots and plants, and tech's main weapons are usually electric and burning... coincidence?), and let him tease his way to victory behind shield fortress.

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

1) Robbing ranged Techs of Overcharge would be a nerf to ranged, since Volley is far inferior. Seriously, Blind vs Stun? It is obvious choise.

Strongly disagree. The chance of successfully stunning the target with Overcharge is less than that of successfully paralyzing them with the Techy starter perk and it doesn't work when their shields are up. Volley is also a lot more versatile, since in conjunction with Second shot it grants you three attacks with any range weapon, including Lust based ones. You can one-turn-KO Tavria or Queen of the Deep with it.

 

[Darkwarpalg6]

Making the disruptors and smuggler grenade skills AoE like what has been said would be a good start, But I was curious... could the Tech's drone companion be redone into a permanent party member? Considering that Techs are already the 'pet' class, having a party member to actually soak hits for you in lieu of the boosted shields of the other perk sounds alot more appealing than having a 'thing' that deals redundant damage at the end of your turn.

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

But I was curious... could the Tech's drone companion be redone into a permanent party member? Considering that Techs are already the 'pet' class, having a party member to actually soak hits for you in lieu of the boosted shields of the other perk sounds alot more appealing than having a 'thing' that deals redundant damage at the end of your turn.

It shouldn't be able to tank too much of the incoming damage or it will become functionally identical to the other perk. It also doesn't have to be a 'pet' party member to be useful. IMO the choice is meant to be between utility and raw defense, so when we'll have more of those utility options to choose from things will even out. Things like lust damage, stun/paralyze, healing or armor/DR boost are all valid options, at least from in-universe perspective.

 

[Savin]

Here's a two-for before I ship some stuff off to Geddy to check out: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OWtdC_8BASu6VWYF6XFoMLLfAukBYiuudeHvMm7YfJk/edit#


A chunk of class-ability balance revisions + (a very much so first draft of) the Level 9-12 abilities, which will cover Uveto + the next Probe planet. 

 

[Couch]

I'll give more thorough comments when I'm not on my phone, but let me say I really like Sturm und Drang.  If we can get a few more features like that it'll be a nice bone to throw those who compulsively max out everything.

 

[Savin]

Minor Update: Fen, Geddy, and I sat down and worked through the class changes. Everything's been settled on for them, and some retroactive changes have been implemented for before/at KaraQuest's release. 

 

[TheInfamousImmortal]

So what are you guys gonna do with Weapon Hack for Techies? Cause in my opinion that special ability is REALLY worthless.

 

[Savin]

It's getting cut.

 

[TheInfamousImmortal]

It's getting cut.

any ideas on what you guys are going to replace it with?

 

[Savin]

any ideas on what you guys are going to replace it with?

Why don't you go peek in the document I linked and find out~

 

[TheInfamousImmortal]

Why don't you go peek in the document I link and find out~

Charge Shield?

 

[TBFTS]

Arc Caster should have a multi-target move since the description makes it sound like it has a function for that.

 

[Longbow]

I played through the most recent public release as a Scoundrel Smuggler and figured I'd post my thoughts, some of which relate to the google doc. EDIT: Yeah, wow, this looks a lot longer than I would have liked. Sorry about that.


The new group battles are great. Grenade is really useful now, so useful it noticeably outclasses the Gas Grenade. Being able to damage a large group is too useful to give up for a lust attack which most groups aren't vulnerable to. Flashbang was also very helpful in group battles, which puts ranged-focused Smuggler at a distinct advantage there considering Flashbang's accuracy is scaled off of Aim.


I didn't play my melee Smuggler as much as my ranged one, but I found Low Blow to be pretty effective. Its low damage was irrelevant, as it was a good way to set up for Sneak Attack, especially nice is that stun lasts longer than blind. Overall, Low Blow is a nice move to get in exchange for not being able to use Flashbang effectively, but I haven't tested it in the group battles in Kara's second quest.


In terms of stat distribution, it felt to me that Intelligence was far more useful than Reflex as a secondary stat. Both Sneak Attack and Aimed Shot, your primary ways of dealing damage as a Smuggler, gain an additional increase in effectiveness with Intelligence. Reflex, on the other hand, never seemed to increase dodge chance to the point where it was reliable enough to... well, rely on. Defending yourself by disabling the enemy was much more effective. Honestly, Reflex has never seemed to be that useful of a stat to me, even in past versions... at least as far as I recall.


As far as the Smuggler's miscellaneous abilities go, Quickdraw beats Leap Up easily. Being knocked prone was more of an annoyance than a real problem, and being able to switch from a normal weapon to a lust weapon without wasting a turn came in handy. Disarming Shot beats Stealth Field. Stealth Field is too defensive to be useful outside of situations where you know a big attack is coming, while Disarming Shot came in useful at least a little bit. Neither are that great, though. If you're in a bad situation Stealth Field doesn't improve it at all, but maybe it can buy you time for Smuggled Stimulant to finish. Maybe. Speaking of Smuggled Stimulant, I found Burst of Energy to be adequate enough to take me through all of the current content without having to worry about energy. I've already talked about how the Grenade is much better than the Gas Grenade.


Overall, the Smuggler was great at dealing with normal enemies with high first-turn burst damage, had excellent energy longevity in boss fights since a single Flashbang or Low Blow sets up multiple free Aimed Shots/Sneak Attacks, and that the class relied on disabling enemies to survive, especially in group fights. Reflex seemed to be of limited usefulness, even as my second primary stat.


I haven't had a chance to play Mercenary in the latest build yet, and I almost never play Tech Specialist. Mercenary always held up well, so I'm curious to see how it holds up against Kara's second quest.


Looking at the google doc, I have to say the upcoming Tech Spec. and Smuggler abilities look really nice, but the Mercenary abilities look absolutely flaccid in comparison. I'm also not terrible in love with all these little 5% increases peppered throughout the abilities. 5% seems too low to be noticeable, much less be interesting. These 10% elemental resistances don't seem that useful, either, since the bulk of your resistance would still come from armor and shields.


Regarding the Mercenary's abilities, specifically, they range from 'drab and uninteresting' to 'ranged specialists need Physique'. Also, melee Mercenaries don't really need another way to stun enemies. I would like to go into more detail, but I think this post is long enough as it is. Suffice it to say... future abilities for the Tech Spec. and Smuggler look great, but the Mercenary's 9-12 abilities probably need to be done from scratch. They really are... not very good.


Sorry if I missed anything in any of my ability assessments, and sorry for this post being so long. This sounded shorter in my head.

 

[Overt_Ninja]

I noticed that the Fortification stat on armour only gives +1 to the player's max HP and accuracy bonuses only give a measly +1% boost per point, which is really underwhelming. I think a +10 to HP per point for Fortification and +2% or +3% accuracy boost per point in the Accuracy stat would be a much better bonus.

 

[Fully Automated]

Accuracy is twice as effective as Aim/Physique, point per point, for landing a hit. Problem is that it doesn't figure out to things like Evasion or flurry penalty at all (though neither does anything else).

 

[Overt_Ninja]

I would appreciate it if you guys could take a look at my review on the upcoming potential Mercenary changes I made here: http://pastebin.com/uaQB7XB4


Pastebin didn't allow me to use bold and italics so I added @@ to the comments I made under each perk/ability to make it a little easier to read.

Accuracy is twice as effective as Aim/Physique, point per point, for landing a hit. Problem is that it doesn't figure out to things like Evasion or flurry penalty at all (though neither does anything else).

So you're saying evasion doesn't subtract from accuracy but instead simply procs to allow one to avoid all damage?

 

[Fully Automated]

So you're saying evasion doesn't subtract from accuracy but instead simply procs to allow one to avoid all damage?

Pretty much, yeah. First you have an attack roll based on the attacker's Physique or Aim (for melee and ranged respectively) and accuracy checked against the target's Reflex. Then you check for Evasion as a simple check. Then you check for Lucky Breaks (which is a separate 10% to not get hit).


Then of course there's the fixed 46% miss chance for flurry attacks (like Second Shot or Volley) which isn't affected by anything except Secure MP. Oh, and miss chances from Blindness and smoke grenades and stuff.


Also I made a mistake. The attack roll uses stat/5+accuracy, so 1 point of Accuracy is worth 5 points of Phys or Aim (though those obviously apply to other things too).

 

[Longbow]

I would appreciate it if you guys could take a look at my review on the upcoming potential Mercenary changes I made here: http://pastebin.com/uaQB7XB4


Pastebin didn't allow me to use bold and italics so I added @@ to the comments I made under each perk/ability to make it a little easier to read.

I took a look at it. Some of my feedback is more directed towards the original ideas from Savin and Fen, though. Sorry if this seems a little curt in places. My original post was getting much too long so I went back and really edited it down. I should have done that with my last post. EDIT: It always looks shorter in the reply box...


Taunting giving the Mercenary damage reduction is a good idea. Mercs have high HP and can heal themselves but aren't really full tanks. They don't get damage reductions beyond what their equipment and Toughness give them while Smuggler can just blind everyone and Tech Specialists can get bonuses to shields and armor.


I agree that Power Strike shouldn't be buffed too much. Without the Secure MP, Rapid Fire is not that reliable. Rapid Fire and Second Shot seemed to produced an average of about two hits landing per use when I used it throughout Kara's second quest (without the Secure MP). Power Strike could do with some kind of buff, though.


Second Wind restoring more health would move Mercs closer to being tanks. Resisting sundering doesn't seem that useful. Sundering doesn't screw you the way getting stunned, blinded, and paralyzed does. A possible alternative to Second Wind healing more is that it could give you a buff.


Sunder seems like a useful tool for players, so I like the idea of adding it to existing moves. Stagger doesn't seem as useful.


My problem with Giant Slayer is that giant enemies aren't always more dangerous. Amara is much more tanky than Khorgan's mech, for example. Size made no difference. Additional crit rate against all bosses would be better. You could possibly call it Ace Killer, instead. Alternatively, limited kinetic resistance penetration could work. It would synergize well with Low-tech Solutions and Heavy Weapons.


I can't comment on this Physique requirement for "heavy weapons" (not to be confused with Heavy Weapons), whatever those turn out to be since I don't know much about them.


Helldiver seems a little lame. 15% kinetic resistance is alright since that damage type is very common, but it didn't need a repaint. The replacement buff suggested is interesting, and having it be percentage-based would keep it scaling well.


I don't like Sturm und Drung. I don't think ranged Mercs need this over something (that's not the Secure MP) that increases the reliability of Rapid Attack. Not to mention it sounds like it requires Physique in addition to Aim. As for the melee moves, I don't think the Merc needs more stunning moves, either. You really just need one, as long as it works.

 

[Overt_Ninja]

What does Stagger do exactly? I can't seem to find anything in the wiki and I don't remember being affected by it.

Alternatively, limited kinetic resistance penetration could work. It would synergize well with Low-tech Solutions and Heavy Weapons.

I think I actually prefer this idea over my own because of the synergy and utility vs future foes like Amara.


As for Sturm and Drang what did you think of my idea of making it fully ranged with the additional effects I added? That should make it a more interesting alternative to Rapid Shot for ranged mercs.


I also forgot to mention my thoughts on the existing Iron Will and Juggernaut perks.


Iron Will is not appealing for a ranged Merc. I came up with the idea of it adding 1 point into reflexes for each point in Aim if Aim is greater than Physique instead, and on the occasion both Physique and Aim are equal then the points gained should be halved and rounded down.


Juggernaut is ok at the moment but I tend to have an issue with % chance effects. Maybe having it be an active ability that frees you from current stuns, paralysis whilst making you immune to them for the next turn or 2 and a 10% damage resistance. This idea might be a bit over powered so maybe limiting it to once per battle would make it more balanced?

 

[Longbow]

What does Stagger do exactly? I can't seem to find anything in the wiki and I don't remember being affected by it.

It lowers Aim and Reflexes, I believe. So it would have utility, but I think sunder would be more useful.

As for Sturm and Drang what did you think of my idea of making it fully ranged with the additional effects I added? That should make it a more interesting alternative to Rapid Shot for ranged mercs.

Ah, I had actually missed the part where you suggested making it fully ranged. I should try to pay more attention in the future. If it's completely ranged then I wouldn't mind it getting added in as a new move, since it would give ranged Mercs a stun that doesn't depend on Physique.


As for the rest of your post, I think an ability that adds Reflexes for Aim is interesting. I wasn't too impressed with the Reflexes stat when playing as a Smuggler, but the way it works could possibly changed in the future. I would take free Reflexes over no Reflexes, anyways. Not to mention future abilities could scale off of Reflexes. I like it. Melee Mercs would get Iron Will and ranged Mercs would get... whatever you would call this ability. It might be better as just a direct counterpart to Iron Will: 1 point added to Reflexes for each 5 points of Aim. You could get it somewhere down the line. In this case both melee Mercs and ranged Mercs would have a dead level in there somewhere, but it would be a type of balance, at least.


I didn't like the odds on Juggernaut, either. I do like the suggestion of making it a once-per-battle ability that also gives you immunity from those status effects for a few turns, just to prevent you from getting stunned or paralyzed again, immediately.

 

[Overt_Ninja]

It lowers Aim and Reflexes, I believe. So it would have utility, but I think sunder would be more useful.

I see, maybe if Suppressing Fire caused blindness it could have a nice dynamic to Rending Attack. Extra damage potential and survivability.


Glad you liked some of my ideas, I have a few more but I want to wait for a reply from an admin to know if I'm on the right track or if I should scrap my ideas.


Oh, another question I forgot to ask is what the classes are rated in terms of combat ability. I was under the impression it went Smuggler > Mercenary > Tech Specialist.

 

[Longbow]

Oh, another question I forgot to ask is what the classes are rated in terms of combat ability. I was under the impression it went Smuggler > Mercenary > Tech Specialist.

I can't speak for the Tech Specialist as I've never played one past the first few levels. In past builds I would say ranged Mercenary is at the top, while ranged Smuggler is second. Rapid Fire used to feel more reliable.


Based on my runthrough of Kara's second quest with both of those classes I would say I had an easier time with the Smuggler. Flashbang doubles as both their offensive and defensive option rolled into one and only having to use it once every few turns means that the Smuggler's energy lasts a long time. Their ability to deal and avoid damage was consistent. Only real trouble I had was with unlucky stuns.


In contrast, the Mercenary felt like you were just waiting for the right dice rolls. When the stars aligned you could do a lot of damage, but usually you just did alright damage. Dealing with constant blindness was a little annoying, as it seemed like almost every mob in the quest could cause it. I had Take Cover which should have been ideal against most of those enemies, but it generally felt like it was faster to just roll for good Rapid Fire hits. I didn't enjoy playing through that section as a Mercenary very much.


Tech Spec. looks like it could be neat, but it has a pretty slow start which kind of turns me off from it. I'll probably give it another shot just so I can have something to say about it.


I also want to say that the enemies in Kara's second quest seemed to be harder to hit, in general. I don't know if how accuracy works was tweaked in one update or if they're just particularly evasive.


Anyways, I agree we should probably wait for an admin to see if they're at all interested in any of the suggestions. No sense talking up a storm if they're not.

 

[Etis]

Tech Spec. looks like it could be neat, but it has a pretty slow start which kind of turns me off from it. I'll probably give it another shot just so I can have something to say about it.

Tech lacks conventional offensive skills. It's potential now lies in use of tease and lust weapons, especially since it has some skills useful against most lust immune foes (who are mostly robots). Also, since tech without a shield is pretty much screwed anyways, you can wear whatever you want without major drawbacks. So your best weapon for now would be slut ray gun from Badger as ranged and any energy melee (jolthammer, lava saber or vamp blade). One catch - double attack perk would not work with pure lust weapons, so either take melee perk or use lust bows. But this build has one major problem - you'll have to invest into both physique and aim for weapons, almost all skills are intelligence based and reflexes are must have for any character... Be ready to train a lot. Yeh, tech is slow going class.

 

[Longbow]

One catch - double attack perk would not work with pure lust weapons, so either take melee perk or use lust bows.

I had noticed that with the Smuggler. I didn't know bows were exempt from that, though. In any case, thanks for the build advice.