[CoC2] Dual Wielding

[Raginmund]

So, I was curious as to why Dual Wielding seems to function the way it does in CoC2.

Currently it seems to function as follows:
You purchase a Primary (Main Hand / One-handed) weapon, and if that weapon is detected as being compatible with Offhand weapon types, then the option to purchase said Offhand weapon types become available in the shops, depending on the stock of the vendor.
Or the weapon itself is already Offhand compatible (such as the Sanctified Gladius), but there's no tag mentioned for that on the actual item itself (when it's in the inventory or the Primary slot).

However, this has a few issues, due to the fact that it seems as though not every weapon has access to the supposed "check" (or tag) that determines it being Offhand compatible (or allowing the purchase of Offhand weapons in shops when the weapon is in the Primary slot e.g. Battleaxe), nor does it allow for combinations of weapons, such as allowing two Primary (One-handed) weapons to be used, with one being in the Primary slot and the other being in the Offhand slot. This effectively would mean that the only way to Dual Wield would either be to purchase specific Offhand variants when available (assuming your Primary One-handed weapon is of the compatible type), or to check the Wiki to see if a weapon is available as an Offhand.

It makes the process rather confusing, in my opinion, due to the limitations of Primary (One-handed) weapons not being able to be used in the Offhand slot -- such as purchasing two Battleaxes and having one in the Main Hand slot, and one in the Offhand slot. I understand that for balancing purposes it makes sense that the Offhand weapon should have its stats reduced, but that could be applied via a percentage nerf to any Primary (One-handed) weapons equipped in the Offhand slot, or just via a check that has the associated stats with said weapon in the Offhand slot instead.

To further illustrate my point:

Spoiler

1) Showcasing the base Battleaxe stats as a Primary weapon.


2) Showcasing the lack of an option to purchase an Offhand Battleaxe, due to the Battleaxe not being Dual Wield compatible supposedly.


3) Showcasing that the newly purchased Battleaxe was indeed not an Offhand variant, and would replace the already equipped one in the Primary slot.


4) Showcasing base Short Sword stats as a Primary weapon.


5) Showcasing the option to purchase an Offhand Short Sword being present with a Primary Short Sword equipped, indicating that the Primary Short Sword is Dual Wield compatible (presumably via a check or tag of Offhand, not seen on the item itself). Also showcasing the Offhand variants stats, please refer to image 4 to see the difference in stats.


6) Showcasing that the newly purchased Short Sword was indeed an Offhand variant, and would be equipped in the Offhand slot with reduced stats for balancing purposes.

Interestingly enough, there are 27* "Offhand" weapons in the game (the majority of them being Catalyst weapons at 9/27*), according to the Wiki, with only 5* of them being classified as "Melee" weapons (including the Kunai, which is a thrown weapon ?, although the Dagger -- also a thrown weapon, isn't classified as a Melee weapon ?). Doesn't seem like the Warrior Class has many options in the way of Dual Wielding at the moment.

As I've inferred earlier on in this post, it might make a bit of sense to allow Primary (One-handed) weapons to be equipped in the Offhand slot as well (at least for Non-Unique items that are able to be purchased in shops / from vendors), but just nerf the stats a bit to compensate (either via a percentage nerf, or a check with specific stats for the weapon when it's equipped in the Offhand slot). Although, that's just a suggestion.

Curious to hear everyone else's thoughts on the matter, and any feedback from the devs.

* As of April 2022.

 

[Hugsbutts]

it certainly would help, there isnt much options for dualwielders i feel but we certainly have lot of 2-handed weapons

 

[Shrike675]

The light tag has pretty much replaced the offhand tag for most weapons I'm pretty sure, It already dictates what can and can't be dual wielded.

 

[Savin]

The "Light" weapon tag is what you want for dual-wielding, not off-hand.

 

[Raginmund]

it certainly would help, there isnt much options for dualwielders i feel but we certainly have lot of 2-handed weapons

Yeah, that was my thoughts as well.

The light tag has pretty much replaced the offhand tag for most weapons I'm pretty sure, It already dictates what can and can't be dual wielded.

The "Light" weapon tag is what you want for dual-wielding, not off-hand.

Ah, right. Well in any event the post was more geared toward Melee (not Thrown weapons inclusive, which the majority of the "Light" weapons are) Dual Wielding options, so maybe I should have clarified that in the OP, but I dare not edit it, as the forums have held my edits for review before (much to my irritation, as it usually doesn't end up reviewed until I contact a moderator...).

Regardless of the terminology used ("Light"), it doesn't explain why there are so few options for Melee Dual Wielding though. If you want to get into actual statistics (according to the Wiki, because there's no way I'm cataloguing all this in-game -- especially when the devs have all this info at their disposal already), then lets go:

Oh, and I stand corrected -- there are 28 Offhand weapons in the game, not 27.

There are only 5 Offhand / "Light" Melee weapon options for Dual Wielding. 5/28.

Spoiler

Balanced Blade, Kunai (shouldn't be listed as it is, imo, considering the Dagger isn't listed as a Melee weapon either), Sanctified Gladius, Sharp Sickle, Short Sword.


Kunai ^


Dagger ^

Guess you can't Melee with daggers now, never would of guessed. I suppose that also means any knife-point muggings are impossible in CoC2, unless its done by the Kitsune or with the "Rusty Knife".

There are 6 Offhand / "Light" Thrown weapons for Dual Wielding. 6/28.

Spoiler

Chrysanthemum Petal, Dagger, Flaming Dagger, Francisca, Kunai, Throwing Knife.

There are 8 Shields, which are also counted as Offhand weapons, funnily enough. 8/28.

Spoiler

Hoplon Shield, Rosebloom Shield, Runic Shield, Shield of Absorption, Shield of Brawn, Shield Orb, Tower Shield, Wicker Shield.

There are 9 Catalyst weapons, for Dual Wielding. 9/28.

Spoiler

Blank Scroll (not actually listed as a weapon, but I counted it anyway), Bull Totem, Fire Jade, Fox Jewel, Lynx Totem, Mage Wand, Noble Harp, War Totem, Wooden Pipes.


Blank Scroll ^


Bull Totem ^ (for comparison)

For comparison, and interest sake, lets have a look at the Two-handed weapons scenario:

There are 15 Two-handed Melee weapons. 15/24 (although with the supposed multi-use of a lot of the Two-handed weapons it could be argued that the total is out of 32, instead of being out of 24).

Spoiler

Blade Staff, Captain's Greatsword, Galon's Griefmaker, Girthy Rod, Mastbreaker, Pike, Poleaxe, Quarterstaff, Spiraled Blade, Spiraled Staff, Straight Pike, Swift Sword, War Pick, War Scythe, War Staff.

Even without counting the Staffs it would be 10/24. A lot more than the arguable 5 or 4 out of 28 (the 28 includes Shields) Offhand weapons for Melee Dual Wielding.
Those 10 would be:
Captain's Greatsword, Galon's Griefmaker, Mastbreaker, Pike, Poleaxe, Spiraled Blade, Straight Pike, Swift Sword, War Pick, War Scythe.

There are 9 Two-handed Ranged weapons. 9/24.

Spoiler

Beast Killer, Bessy Mauler, Hunting Bow, Mushroom Staff, Ranger Bow, Sling-staff, Taeleeran Longbow, War Bow, Whitewood Bow.

If we're not counting the Mushroom Staff, as I'm not entirely sure why it's listed in the Ranged category (never used it), then it's still 8/24 -- still more than the Dual Wielding options for Ranged at the moment as well.

There are 8 Two-handed Catalyst weapons. 8/24.

Spoiler

Blade Staff, Girthy Rod, Mushroom Staff, Quarterstaff, Spiraled Blade, Spiraled Staff, War Scythe, War Staff.

Only here, in the Mage / Catalyst section for Two-handed Catalyst weapons section is it outclassed with the Offhand Catalyst section. However, due to the nature of the Two-handed weapons being able to be used for Melee as well, I'm not convinced of the significance of one more Offhand Catalyst weapon than Two-handed Catalyst weapon.

With the inclusion of Shields in the Offhand category, it's pretty easily discerned that there are more viable Two-handed weapons than Dual Wielding options -- especially considering the multi-use factor of a lot of the Two-handed weapons.

Again, I don't see how different terminology changes anything ("Light"). In any event, seems as though nothing will change, so it's whatever I guess. Just weird logic that Dual Wielding two Battleaxes is too far because "they're too heavy" (implied by the responses) when you can literally wield a Mastbreaker just fine, regardless of any reality breaking dynamics, such as the PC being 4ft tall, or having a Strength Attribute of 6 at level 6.

* Again, with the first post, the amount of weapons is as of April 2022.

 

[Upcast Drake]

There is not "offhand versions" of weapons for dual wielding. You just equip a second primary weapon into the offhand slot, and it has reduced stats. I think your confusion is stemming from 2 things: not knowing that the light tag means "dual wieldable", and that the offhand item (shields, catalysts, etc) icon is a sword. We should probably change the icon to a shield.

 

[Raginmund]

There is not "offhand versions" of weapons for dual wielding. You just equip a second primary weapon into the offhand slot, and it has reduced stats. I think your confusion is stemming from 2 things: not knowing that the light tag means "dual wieldable", and that the offhand item (shields, catalysts, etc) icon is a sword. We should probably change the icon to a shield.

I could understand how you could reach that conclusion if you read my first post in this thread, but not after reading my second post in this thread.

To be crystal clear then, my question is: Why are there so few Dual Wielding options when compared with Two-handed options?

Now, to go through this reply line by line:

There is not "offhand versions" of weapons for dual wielding. You just equip a second primary weapon into the offhand slot, and it has reduced stats.

This is only the case for Melee and Thrown weapons. Shields and Catalyst weapons (Catalyst weapons also do not even have a "light" tag) are standalone items themselves, and do not require this process altogether (the process of buying a second primary weapon, with the "light" tag).
I'd argue that if it functioned as you said where one could equip a secondary primary weapon into the offhand slot it would be ideal (at least for non-unique items found in shops), as what I mentioned in my first post. Unfortunately that's not the case -- there's the arbitrary use of a limiting "light" tag that determines which Melee or Thrown weapons (albeit, the only "light" Thrown weapon that can't be dual wielded is the Javelin) can be equipped in the offhand slot.

Hence not being able to equip two Battleaxes, even though throughout other such fantasy-esque games it is possible to equip two Battleaxes, Long-swords, Maces etc.

It appears as though the "light" tag is supposed to reflect some level of "realism" in this game for some strange reason.

I think your confusion is stemming from 2 things: not knowing that the light tag means "dual wieldable", and that the offhand item (shields, catalysts, etc) icon is a sword. We should probably change the icon to a shield.

Not entirely sure why everyone seems to be obsessing about the terminology ("light" tag), instead of just addressing the point as whole (especially after my second post). There is a disparity between the amount of Dual Wielding options when compared with Two-handed options -- I even provided the stats in my second post.

If nobody wants to address that, then fine, but please don't just disregard it and hone in on the apparent "confusion" -- which I would of addressed in my second post in any case.

For a game centered around reading it doesn't seem like there's a lot of comprehension going on. I get that my posts were long, but it comes across as nobody really bothered to read them and address them as a whole -- just cherry-picking certain things they'd like to address.

 

[one_two]

To be crystal clear then, my question is: Why are there so few Dual Wielding options when compared with Two-handed options?

You're counting together both two-handed ranged weapons and two-handed melee weapons as "two handed" for some weird reason (or just to inflate/skew the numbers to make your point appear valid) But they're effectively two different specializations. If you make a more logical comparison (melee+shield, dual wielding, two handed melee, two handed ranged, caster, two handed caster) you'll find the options to be pretty balanced -- between the 'light/melee' and 'light/thrown' you have 10 different melee weapons you can equip in your off-hand when dual wielding. As 'thrown' weapons in off-hand slot are used as a melee weapon, not as a projectile.

In other words, the answer to your question would be: there ain't, your comparison methodology was wrong.

 

[Raginmund]

You're counting together both two-handed ranged weapons and two-handed melee weapons as "two handed" for some weird reason (or just to inflate/skew the numbers to make your point appear valid) But they're effectively two different specializations. If you make a more logical comparison (melee+shield, dual wielding, two handed melee, two handed ranged, caster, two handed caster) you'll find the options to be pretty balanced -- between the 'light/melee' and 'light/thrown' you have 10 different melee weapons you can equip in your off-hand when dual wielding. As 'thrown' weapons in off-hand slot are used as a melee weapon, not as a projectile.

In other words, the answer to your question would be: there ain't, your comparison methodology was wrong.

I just listed the 2H Weapons as 2H Weapons, because that's what they're classified as (Melee 2H, Ranged 2H and Catalyst 2H, all classified as 2H regardless). It has nothing to do with any weird reasons. And, based on those classifications, I was showcasing the Totals at the end between the two (DW vs 2H), which by the tags (another thing I mentioned, if not implied I was going by as well) themselves, would be 20 vs 32, as I'll showcase in a spoiler below.

Spoiler: DW Weapons vs 2H Weapons, as of April 2022

5 Melee DW options.

Spoiler

6 Thrown DW options (compared to Ranged, in the 2H section).

Spoiler

9 Catalyst DW options.

Spoiler

Total DW options according to the tags: 20.

15 Melee 2H options.

Spoiler

9 Ranged 2H options (compared to Thrown, in the DW section).

Spoiler

8 Catalyst 2H options.

Spoiler

Total 2H options according to the tags: 32.

I was simply comparing DW Weapons according to the tags with 2H Weapons according to the tags. If there's any disparity then it'd likely be as a result of some of the Weapons not fully being tagged correctly, such as like you said with Thrown Weapons being able to be used in Melee, but clearly not tagged as such, apart from the Kunai.
That would be the reason why I didn't include them as such for my Melee DW section in my second post, because they weren't tagged as such.

Regardless of what metric you want to use, even if I did include the Thrown Weapons under the Melee DW options, it would only increase the amount to 10 as you said, definitely a disparity when compared with the 15 Melee 2H options, as I already pointed out previously. If you want to claim it isn't a disparity, then w/e, getting tired of having to explain things that are pretty obvious.

Also, I get the impression you're not counting Catalyst Weapons under DW, but instead a "Caster" section. This is another difference between our comparison methodologies.
I compared the 9 DW Catalyst options to the 8 2H Catalyst options, and acknowledged that in terms of Catalyst Weapons, DW has more options, but only for that Weapon type -- the Catalyst Weapon type.

Anyway, this is truly a forums experience. Have a different comparison methodology? Well you're wrong.
And no, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm explaining my metric for comparisons, yet apparently that's something that can be wrong -- when I'm going purely from a tag base, which is stipulated on the Wiki -- which I said I was referencing from. But I guess that's how it is nowadays, can't have a differing of opinions anymore, someone always has to be wrong.

 

[Upcast Drake]

There are more 2H weapons than light weapons because writers have added more 2H weapons than light weapons. Probably because it's more fun to give a big cool boss a big cool weapon. There will probably always be more 2H weapons than light weapons.

 

[Raginmund]

There are more 2H weapons than light weapons because writers have added more 2H weapons than light weapons. Probably because it's more fun to give a big cool boss a big cool weapon. There will probably always be more 2H weapons than light weapons.

Thanks for the answer.

 

[Angelica1996]

oh yeah this,
would have loved to dual wield axes, i mean im a hulking wolf man nearly as tall as brint and with a body of bodybuilder with hight strength and toughness i had hoped to be able to duel wield axes, feels odd to duel wield shortswords/sickles/daggers

mostly because daggers are apparently a thrown weapon??

i guess im just jelous of my boy brint, he gets to duel wield twohanded weapons afterall.

maybe a perk/trait to allow for "heavy" non-twohanded weapons to be duel-wield. Brint would be the dude to get trained by!

 

[Alfenjeiser02]

oh yeah this,
would have loved to dual wield axes, i mean im a hulking wolf man nearly as tall as brint and with a body of bodybuilder with hight strength and toughness i had hoped to be able to duel wield axes, feels odd to duel wield shortswords/sickles/daggers

mostly because daggers are apparently a thrown weapon??

i guess im just jelous of my boy brint, he gets to duel wield twohanded weapons afterall.

maybe a perk/trait to allow for "heavy" non-twohanded weapons to be duel-wield. Brint would be the dude to get trained by!

use two Franciscas is the closest thing you can have there are only like three types of axes that the player can use in the whole game

Poleaxe, Battleaxe and Francisca

12-type Sword
11 staff will not count Catalyst items
9 bows including waves
7 spears
6 daggers
3 axes
3 Mace and hammers
1 whip

 

[Angelica1996]

use two Franciscas is the closest thing you can have there are only like three types of axes that the player can use in the whole game

Poleaxe, Battleaxe and Francisca

12-type Sword
11 staff will not count Catalyst items
9 bows including waves
7 spears
6 daggers
3 axes
3 Mace and hammers
1 whip

yeah, i thought about the franciscas. but felt it broke my immersion, having a huge tanky muscle wolf throwing axes didn't feel right with me. I would much rather have him act like brint. It is so unfair! he gets to duel wield a damn greataxe and greatmace.

 

[Alfenjeiser02]

yeah, i thought about the franciscas. but felt it broke my immersion, having a huge tanky muscle wolf throwing axes didn't feel right with me. I would much rather have him act like brint. It is so unfair! he gets to duel wield a damn greataxe and greatmace.

I see it impossible only weapons labeled light can be used as duel wield Brint and Arona can do it but the player would break the current game mechanics unless you throw your wallet in Savin's face I doubt that one day we will do it with big weapons

 

[one_two]

The obvious workaround is to double-wield Brint and Arona as your personal weapons.

 

[Angelica1996]

I see it impossible only weapons labeled light can be used as duel wield Brint and Arona can do it but the player would break the current game mechanics unless you throw your wallet in Savin's face I doubt that one day we will do it with big weapons

yeah true. wish i was rich, i'd give them that money heh.
well, next month i will become a backer again. Not that it gives me any sway, but i dont mind i just want to support the development. I looove this idea and concept. was a huge fan of CoC 1, but that sadly got "abandoned" i did play the kitteh edition, but the save editor is somewhat broken with that, removing your items and potentially breaking the game.

i will try if i can wield a battleaxe (onehanded) and a throwing axe on offhand, that will atleast give me the illusion that im duel wielding axes!

 

[ace62354]

how do i equip weapons in the offhand?

 

[Kingu2]

how do i equip weapons in the offhand?

both weapons need to have the 'light' tag.