Character Creation Stat Bonuses and Stat Affinities

[Off The Record]

Why do we have this? The creation stat bonuses have a negligible impact on the entire build and I recall the devs condemning min-maxing anyway. Even the stat affinities only restrict characters. What if I wanted to play a certain race-class-background combination, but now I find that I'm unable to level up one or two attributes later when I want to try different classes? It's a meaningless barrier.

Why can't character creation be strictly cosmetic (race), narrative-based (background), and playstyle-based (class) instead? Those are meaningful things.

 

[Shrike675]

Ever try redistributing your stats at the many trainers in town? That's a thing.

 

[Off The Record]

Ever try redistributing your stats at the many trainers in town? That's a thing.

That's solving a problem that doesn't have to exist. Remove the extra steps by removing the problem itself.

 

[Shrike675]

Fair enough. It's worth mentioning that your favored attributes do get a plus one bonus when picking that Stat to level up. And since total stats to put in right now only total to 15, every point does help. As for the story and game play integration thing, I guess you could chalk it up to making those choices mean something in the long run.

 

[Off The Record]

Fair enough. It's worth mentioning that your favored attributes do get a plus one bonus when picking that Stat to level up. And since total stats to put in right now only total to 15, every point does help. As for the story and game play integration thing, I guess you could chalk it up to making those choices mean something in the long run.

Every point doesn't help. It's far eclipsed by equipment bonuses and level-up distributions. That plus one to damage and plus one to armor penetration from an additional Strength point means nothing.

In so far as your comment on "choices mean something in the long run," that's what I'm talking about. The choices in character creation may stand alone as narrative decisions. The issue comes from trying to bind those narrative values to mechanical values. The latter contributes nothing — unless someone can enlighten me to believe otherwise. Stat bonuses and stat affinities are red herrings. Dead weight. I'm convinced that they should be removed from the system.

 

[Animefan666]

Those points do help. For example, strength boosts your attack power by 3%, Armor and Penetration +1. So, 15 points in strength gives you a boost of 45%/15/15. That's a pretty significant boost. Each stat impacts something greatly. Every point matters. Make it count. If a certain combination isn't beneficial in combat or whatever, that's YOUR decision. Don't blame the system. You can always just open up your save and manually adjust the stats to suit your needs, but burning down the system is a childish solution to a non-existent problem.

 

[Burnerbro]

In so far as your comment on "choices mean something in the long run," that's what I'm talking about. The choices in character creation may stand alone as narrative decisions. The issue comes from trying to bind those narrative values to mechanical values. The latter contributes nothing — unless someone can enlighten me to believe otherwise. Stat bonuses and stat affinities are red herrings. Dead weight. I'm convinced that they should be removed from the system.

Sucesfully marrying narrative and game mechanics is what RPGs are all about as a genre. CoC2 has a very freeform character progression system for a game with with distinct character classes, but it is still a class-based game. With no restrictions on learning new powers the class stat affinities are one of only two major components of each individual class's kit. If you get rid of them you might as well scrap the whole class system.

With the background being the only permamanent fixture of your character, the stat affinities you get from it represent the sum total of what your character is naturally good at as well as what they have trained to do for most of their lives. You can ignore those strength in favour of skills they pick up during their journey or you can play to those strenghts, the choice is yours.

The only stat affinities I can see a good argument for removing are racial ones because losing stat affinities as a result of an errant TF pushing your invisible racial score past an arbitrary threshold feels quite bad - and because limiting the effect the Champion's physical features have on combat mechanics is the devs' stated policy.

 

[Animefan666]

The only stat affinities I can see a good argument for removing are racial ones because losing stat affinities as a result of an errant TF pushing your invisible racial score past an arbitrary threshold feels quite bad - and because limiting the effect the Champion's physical features have on combat mechanics is the devs' stated policy.

You're starting bonuses don't change. Once your character is created, those bonuses are locked in. That includes your starting race bonus.

 

[Burnerbro]

You're starting bonuses don't change. Once your character is created, those bonuses are locked in. That includes your starting race bonus.

That is true. However your racial stat affinities do change.

To take an example from my experience, let's say you created a white mage and the only thing giving your Strength affinity was being an orc. You transforn into a Wyld Elf because you want Hashat to fuck you real good - but then you find out you no longer have that affinity and so you are unable to raise that stat on level ups. My character will gladly sacrifice some cross-class effectiveness for hot mare action, but the fact that she needed to do so is more than a little annoying.

 

[Animefan666]

That is true. However your racial stat affinities do change.

To take an example from my experience, let's say you created a white mage and the only thing giving your Strength affinity was being an orc. You transforn into a Wyld Elf because you want Hashat to fuck you real good - but then you find out you no longer have that affinity and so you are unable to raise that stat on level ups. My character will gladly sacrifice some cross-class effectiveness for hot mare action, but the fact that she needed to do so is more than a little annoying.

This seems more like a "make another character for it" thing rather than trash a core mechanic.

 

[Off The Record]

Those points do help. For example, strength boosts your attack power by 3%, Armor and Penetration +1. So, 15 points in strength gives you a boost of 45%/15/15. That's a pretty significant boost. Each stat impacts something greatly. Every point matters. Make it count. If a certain combination isn't beneficial in combat or whatever, that's YOUR decision. Don't blame the system. You can always just open up your save and manually adjust the stats to suit your needs, but burning down the system is a childish solution to a non-existent problem.

I'm not talking about fifteen whole points. In fact, I literally stated that level-up distributions have a significant impact in the exact comment you replied to. What doesn't have a significant impact are character creation bonuses, which are either +1, +2, or +3 to one stat at most. But again, I recall the devs condemn min-maxing, so why even offer the chance for character creation bonuses to eclipse narrative choices? And if character creation min-maxing's a viable strategy, then why not balance the character creation choices to enable players to mix-and-match their bonuses? Agility +3 can be achieved, but Strength +3 cant.

Also, having to save edit, and thereby undermine actual gameplay, exposes a flaw in the game. Third party resources often arise to compensate for deficiencies in a source material. Like in this case, from your perspective.

Don't strawman me. No one's advocating for burning down an entire system.

 

[Off The Record]

Sucesfully marrying narrative and game mechanics is what RPGs are all about as a genre. CoC2 has a very freeform character progression system for a game with with distinct character classes, but it is still a class-based game. With no restrictions on learning new powers the class stat affinities are one of only two major components of each individual class's kit. If you get rid of them you might as well scrap the whole class system.

With the background being the only permamanent fixture of your character, the stat affinities you get from it represent the sum total of what your character is naturally good at as well as what they have trained to do for most of their lives. You can ignore those strength in favour of skills they pick up during their journey or you can play to those strenghts, the choice is yours.

The only stat affinities I can see a good argument for removing are racial ones because losing stat affinities as a result of an errant TF pushing your invisible racial score past an arbitrary threshold feels quite bad - and because limiting the effect the Champion's physical features have on combat mechanics is the devs' stated policy.

If you get rid of them you might as well scrap the whole class system.

PLEASE, refrain from strawmanning. It's so unbecoming.

I never once criticized classes. What I'm criticizing are character creation stat bonuses and class affinities. To the devs, the latter clearly isn't essential to class mechanics since you can freely redistribute your stat points, unrestricted by class affinities, by speaking to trainers.

So certainly, I can accept that balancing narrative and mechanical elements are important to a successful RPG. But this isnt a success. Sufficient balance is achieved by the class passives, like Warriors ignoring evasion and initiative bonuses from heavy armor.

With the background being the only permamanent fixture of your character, the stat affinities you get from it represent the sum total of what your character is naturally good at as well as what they have trained to do for most of their lives. You can ignore those strength in favour of skills they pick up during their journey or you can play to those strenghts, the choice is yours.

Character creation stat bonuses are inconsequential in it's impact on the build's performance. Because of this, your argument's moot.

The only stat affinities I can see a good argument for removing are racial ones because losing stat affinities as a result of an errant TF pushing your invisible racial score past an arbitrary threshold feels quite bad - and because limiting the effect the Champion's physical features have on combat mechanics is the devs' stated policy.

Transformatives don't change your character creation bonuses, which calls them into question even more — at least in so far as the racial bonus can be considered.

 

[WolframL]

Character creation stat bonuses are inconsequential in it's impact on the build's performance.

Except not really, an extra point in a stat due to creation bonuses is still an improvement over not having that point. An extra point in Presence is the equivalent of each ally getting two extra points of Attack/Spellpower for example, or an extra point in Strength giving you another point in Penetration among other boosts. That the differences aren't as massive as you want doesn't mean they aren't there and don't impact your character.

 

[Off The Record]

Except not really, an extra point in a stat due to creation bonuses is still an improvement over not having that point. An extra point in Presence is the equivalent of each ally getting two extra points of Attack/Spellpower for example, or an extra point in Strength giving you another point in Penetration among other boosts. That the differences aren't as massive as you want doesn't mean they aren't there and don't impact your character.

I never said that each stat point has zero impact. I said that an extra stat point has insignificant impact. That it has no practical influence on the battle's course.

Your rationale here is analogous to claiming that a literal waterdrop will prevent a severely dehydrated man from dying from dehydration while he's stranded in a desert. Sure, it has an impact. But it's insignificant. It won't prevent the man from dying from dehydration.

 

[Animefan666]

This whole thing just screams entitlement. You're creating a problem because it isn't some massive game changing mechanic. It's literally the beginning of the game. You're not supposed to start out with Herculean strength, super sonic speed, etc. It's small and cumulative, capitalise on your starting bonuses or don't. Either way, it's your choice.

 

[LonelyHydra]

Correct me if I`m wrong, but I recall the current setup we have now is a compromise. Most rpgs with stat increases on level up would either have them auto pick based on charactor creator picks, or just give the player freedom to decide.

I too agree that this has issues, and it's unesscessary. The stats system is robust enough that there's no need for affinities to limit them. They don't even solve minmaxing, they codify it.

If it really is better to have players go to a trainer to shore up weaknesses, and it's does have weight in narrative, then it may be helpful to take choice out of levelups entirely (or even just outside of town). Just gain a set amount of stats per level up, affinities can decide where on probablity. Hint towards it in game to keep players from going the forum (for that anyway).

Except not really, an extra point in a stat due to creation bonuses is still an improvement over not having that point. An extra point in Presence is the equivalent of each ally getting two extra points of Attack/Spellpower for example, or an extra point in Strength giving you another point in Penetration among other boosts. That the differences aren't as massive as you want doesn't mean they aren't there and don't impact your character.

As been said: In practice, players do not care about minor stat bonuses; they care if the guy goes down in one less hit, or you stay up for one more turn. By default, your UI does not make it easy to follow how one leads to the other.

This whole thing just screams entitlement. You're creating a problem because it isn't some massive game changing mechanic. It's literally the beginning of the game. You're not supposed to start out with Herculean strength, super sonic speed, etc. It's small and cumulative, capitalise on your starting bonuses or don't. Either way, it's your choice.

It's not that I think you should start out powerful, I'd agree with you on that, but... Why do you like it? If it's not "some massive game changing mechanic", what would be the loss in taking it out? There's always gain in less cruft, if only for mental bandwidth.

 

[Animefan666]

It's not that I think you should start out powerful, I'd agree with you on that, but... Why do you like it? If it's not "some massive game changing mechanic", what would be the loss in taking it out? There's always gain in less cruft, if only for mental bandwidth.

Getting rid of it would only result in a net loss. There is literally nothing to gain. So, why scrap it?

 

[Off The Record]

This whole thing just screams entitlement. You're creating a problem because it isn't some massive game changing mechanic. It's literally the beginning of the game. You're not supposed to start out with Herculean strength, super sonic speed, etc. It's small and cumulative, capitalise on your starting bonuses or don't. Either way, it's your choice.

Actually, quite the opposite. I've said multiple times that the features are red herrings that only create issues that could easily be removed by mere omission. Don't paint someone as a drama queen when you lack a proper defense or counterargument. Makes you look juvenile.

 

[Off The Record]

Getting rid of it would only result in a net loss. There is literally nothing to gain. So, why scrap it?

If your concern was to min-max, you can do it by other more reasonable and less questionable means. You can also just purchase drinks from Garth.

And like I said before, if the purpose was to enable mix-maxing, then character creation should enable flexible bonus choices. You can achieve +3 Agility, but not +3 Strength. Therefore, we can assume that character creation was not intended to encourage or support min-maxing. There's no principle behind which these stat bonuses are a boon other that attempting to mimic Dungeons and Dragons, which isnt without flaw when it comes to character creation stat bonuses either. The franchise attempted to rectify that issue in its latest installment.

If your concern isnt min-maxing, then losing three meaningless bonus points shouldnt matter to you. It's a net loss, sure, but it's a meager net loss that eliminates other issues greater than a mere three bonus points.

 

[Off The Record]

Correct me if I`m wrong, but I recall the current setup we have now is a compromise. Most rpgs with stat increases on level up would either have them auto pick based on charactor creator picks, or just give the player freedom to decide.

I too agree that this has issues, and it's unesscessary. The stats system is robust enough that there's no need for affinities to limit them. They don't even solve minmaxing, they codify it.

If it really is better to have players go to a trainer to shore up weaknesses, and it's does have weight in narrative, then it may be helpful to take choice out of levelups entirely (or even just outside of town). Just gain a set amount of stats per level up, affinities can decide where on probablity. Hint towards it in game to keep players from going the forum (for that anyway).


As been said: In practice, players do not care about minor stat bonuses; they care if the guy goes down in one less hit, or you stay up for one more turn. By default, your UI does not make it easy to follow how one leads to the other.


It's not that I think you should start out powerful, I'd agree with you on that, but... Why do you like it? If it's not "some massive game changing mechanic", what would be the loss in taking it out? There's always gain in less cruft, if only for mental bandwidth.

Correct me if I`m wrong, but I recall the current setup we have now is a compromise.

No one but the devs behind its inception can speak on that, but I think it's a real interesting discussion.

I think that, in a game where flexibility in appearance and abilities are so important, players should have the opportunity to exercise maximum control over their characters. There could be gameplay modes that manipulate these in degrees, such as by limiting transformations for those players who like to keep their appearances and such as by enabling the full transformation effects for those players who like to have their appearances changed against their will. But for combat gameplay and stat building? I think many would agree that the two most attractive options are: (a) rolling for it and building a character around the rolled stats; and (b) distributing stats manually. But I take this sentiment from my experience with DnD. Im not asserting that this definitely represents the opinions of CoC2 players.

If I wanna play a human muscle wizard who used to be a scholar but also loved exercising in the academy gym — in a game where I can already be a ridiculous chimeric monstrosity, no less — then I should be able to without having to worrying about barriers from stat affinities.

 

[WolframL]

Dude, don't triple post, there's an edit button.

 

[Off The Record]

Dude, don't triple post, there's an edit button.

Different replies to different people. Wasnt aware that I could reply to multiple people in one post. New on the forums.

 

[Paradox01]

Different replies to different people. Wasnt aware that I could reply to multiple people in one post. New on the forums.

What do Female bodied players think of the recent content?

Hi! Okay, so with female bodied I mean players who’s character has traits of a woman (i.e. breasts, vagina etc.), and in this case no male genitalia. I’m curious what this group of players has been thinking about the content recently. Are you satisfied with the current romance options, sex...

forum.fenoxo.com

 

[Animefan666]

If your concern was to min-max, you can do it by other more reasonable and less questionable means. You can also just purchase drinks from Garth.

And like I said before, if the purpose was to enable mix-maxing, then character creation should enable flexible bonus choices. You can achieve +3 Agility, but not +3 Strength. Therefore, we can assume that character creation was not intended to encourage or support min-maxing. There's no principle behind which these stat bonuses are a boon other that attempting to mimic Dungeons and Dragons, which isnt without flaw when it comes to character creation stat bonuses either. The franchise attempted to rectify that issue in its latest installment.

If your concern isnt min-maxing, then losing three meaningless bonus points shouldnt matter to you. It's a net loss, sure, but it's a meager net loss that eliminates other issues greater than a mere three bonus points.

Considering that the game is still in the process of being made, you can't expect perfection right off. It takes time to get things just right. The fact that you'd rather trash the system shows that this is more for you and a very small minority rather than a genuine concern for the greater player base. Also, once again, those points are not meaningless. It contributes to a total value that doesn't require you to keep buying temporary boosts. This is purely you wanting the game to conform to your viewpoint because it's slightly inconvenient to your RPing.

 

[LonelyHydra]

Getting rid of it would only result in a net loss. There is literally nothing to gain. So, why scrap it?

Because I've played my share of games, plenty RPGs, with systems that end up unsatisfying the mess around with. Or are you so defensive next you'll tell me that the Doom Marauder was great enemy design?

Relax. The stuff in the game that's important is past the character creator, and that's clearly by design.

No one but the devs behind its inception can speak on that, but I think it's a real interesting discussion.

I think that, in a game where flexibility in appearance and abilities are so important, players should have the opportunity to exercise maximum control over their characters. There could be gameplay modes that manipulate these in degrees, such as by limiting transformations for those players who like to keep their appearances and such as by enabling the full transformation effects for those players who like to have their appearances changed against their will. But for combat gameplay and stat building? I think many would agree that the two most attractive options are: (a) rolling for it and building a character around the rolled stats; and (b) distributing stats manually. But I take this sentiment from my experience with DnD. Im not asserting that this definitely represents the opinions of CoC2 players.

If I wanna play a human muscle wizard who used to be a scholar but also loved exercising in the academy gym — in a game where I can already be a ridiculous chimeric monstrosity, no less — then I should be able to without having to worrying about barriers from stat affinities.

To be fair, homogeneity and frictionlessness is another problem in games, albeit in the mainstream. In gameplay, small bonuses would be more apparent in the early game. And for roleplay purposes, the fluff does imply the you're meant to be changed by the experience and/or power exposure. (By the way, the gym is on the west side of Hawkthorne.)

Consider: Why not double down on the min-maxing and base starting bonuses on double or triple affinities? Would that make the holes in your build worth it?

But yes, with affinities being so important, the game could do a better job of exposing them. It doesn't even list your affinities when you finish assigning them, or on your character sheet; you'd only find out when you get a new level.

 

[Animefan666]

Because I've played my share of games, plenty RPGs, with systems that end up unsatisfying the mess around with. Or are you so defensive next you'll tell me that the Doom Marauder was great enemy design?

Relax. The stuff in the game that's important is past the character creator, and that's clearly by design.

1.) I've played my share of games, RPG's included.
2.) No, Im not being defensive.
3.) Who are you to decide what is/isn't important?
4.) Personal attacks are the last bastion of someone who has no logical argument.

 

[LonelyHydra]

1.) I've played my share of games, RPG's included.
2.) No, Im not being defensive.
3.) Who are you to decide what is/isn't important?
4.) Personal attacks are the last bastion of someone who has no logical argument.

1) Cool.
2) Certainly replied quickly enough, this late.
3) I'm saying even the devs might not think this is worth defending.
4) So pot meets kettle.

 

[Animefan666]

God, it's like talking to a brick wall. Fuck off. I'm done with your bullshit.

 

[Paradox01]

Relax, guys, no need to get so wrapped around the axle here and delve into snide personal remarks. The OP obviously isn't going to be swayed in their opinion and made that abundantly clear by their second post, and those of us opposed to their ideas are just as clearly obstinate in our stances.


EDIT: Dammit, AF, just had to ninja a bomb into the room...

 

[Burnerbro]

If I may go back to discussing the ideas presented here in abstract and without putting much stock into them getting implemented (at least in the near future), there are a few points you guys brought up that I find quite interesting.

I never once criticized classes. What I'm criticizing are character creation stat bonuses and class affinities. To the devs, the latter clearly isn't essential to class mechanics since you can freely redistribute your stat points, unrestricted by class affinities, by speaking to trainers.

See, I wasn't aware that the stat redistribution ignores the affinity system entirely. I have always just assumed that it would abide by the same rules and never got around to using it. Instead always relied on doing my best to juggle the affinities before each level up and on never straying too far from what I consider to be the core strengths of my characters - determined mostly by stat affinities provided by their background.

Knowing that you can juggle your stats in any way you want for just 300 hawks and a day of in-game time certainly de-emphasise the importance of affinities quite a bit.

This (changing race to get to certain content and complaining about stat affinities shifting with the race the game recognizes you as) seems more like a "make another character for it" thing rather than trash a core mechanic.

I agree that in the grand scheme of things situations like that are never more than minor inconveniences for the player, and creating a separate character, or even more simply a separate save for experiencing the content in question is a very easy solution.

However I would like to point out that in all other instances the devs went out of their way to avoid tying power to the player character's race. You can't learn to fly if you swap into a winged species, partically or completely; you don't get any unarmed damage potential from having claws or other natural weapons and you get precisely one Power based on your character having them - a sucky one at that. You don't get access to kitsune powers when you look like one and only get them when you let the change get much deeper than skin level, allowing their asshole/magnificent bastard patron deity to suck up your soul.

So in that sense I think racical stat afiinities should go.

If it really is better to have players go to a trainer to shore up weaknesses, and it's does have weight in narrative, then it may be helpful to take choice out of levelups entirely (or even just outside of town). Just gain a set amount of stats per level up, affinities can decide where on probablity. Hint towards it in game to keep players from going the forum (for that anyway).

I'd be completely down with implementing a system of automatically assigning a fixed amount of stats on level up, distributing them based on your character's affinities. This will have an added benefit of creating a choice between keeping the growth even by having your class, background affinities coverdifferent stats and min-maxing by having them all align. Currently you are simply limitng your options by doing the latter without becoming more proficient for it.

Om the other hand any form of Fire Emblem style randomized stats growth (if that is what you were suggesting) is something I hate with a passion, I would stard molding immediately if if any game I love shifted to that model.

But yes, with affinities being so important, the game could do a better job of exposing them. It doesn't even list your affinities when you finish assigning them, or on your character sheet; you'd only find out when you get a new level.

Another good poit. Can't believe I never noticed it, not even when I was specifically examining the various forms of in-game character sheets to see what information was missing.

I'd also add that currently the stat affinities of non-starter races aren't listed anywhere at all. Sticking them somewhere on the race's Codex page seems like a simple solution.