What are the changes with him not being a companion? Is it better or worse?, why give him tits?, and is the replacement worth being your companion?
Berry
- Thread starter Skylinegtr34
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you lose access to several threesomes from his earlier companion status; i would have to say its an overall loss going forward but a net neutral as for content now and in the immediate future. some people do not like men and imo no but others will disagree
Yea, it’s made it hard for me to play the game, I don’t understand why they gave him tots for no reason, I feel like if the gave berry tits, the cat girl should get a dick, seems like a fair trade
Honestly berry got a massive glow up from my personal experience. Dude was effectively dead content for so long and more discussion was going to his looks rather than anything about his actual character.
That's not true tho, his character is why so many people fell in love with him and decided not to do his second quest to keep what liitle was still there. As talented as B is I don't think he really did Berwyn justice.
I heard someone say that the reason he was removed was because to progress his story, but what does him being a companion has to do with his story? Caits story is progressing nicely and she’s still a companion, why berry was removed?
There's no real comparison between Cait and Berry here. Berry's writer left, meaning the character was in a complete story limbo. Imagine the work it takes to write a companion of your own that's your passion project. Now imagine trying to do all that work for somebody else's character in addition to your own. The explanation is all in the patch notes.
I mean, I've liked him, but I'd never understand people who used him as a companion
My point is that there was no reason to remove him as a companion just to progress his story, I get it that it’s tuff, if he absolutely needs to be removed, make it natural, where he leaves your party to pursue his goals? Or something like that, and not just outright remove him
That's the nature of playing a game mid development. Making him leaving organically isn't really necessary because technically anything and everything that exists in the game is subject to change over the course of the development process. Narratively speaking, he never was a companion, but just someone you end up helping along the way. Otherwise when the final product "launches" so to speak, unless B decided to take on the burden of developing two companion level characters, he'd have been a very content starved companion, vastly underdeveloped compared to the rest of the cast.
C
CMGuest
Guest
He wasn't removed to progress his story. His story was given a conclusion because - due to the departure of his writer - he was no longer being developed as a companion.
The design philosophy of companions for CoC2 is that they are a long term writing commitment. At minimum, when new content comes out, they usually at least have a few words to say about it. Think for a minute on the Abyssal Depths dungeon in the Winter Wolf questchain. Each companion had reactions to the trip, color commentary within the dungeon, and different reactions to the Lureling's psychic assault at the climax.
More to the point, it's further expected that over time they get more substantive interactions with the environment to further flesh out their place in the world. (Eg, think Etheryn's interactions with the Winter City, or Brint/Brienne's with Khor'minos, or Cait with the Temple, or Kiyoko with the Den...).
Berwyn no longer had his dedicated author, and as such had long since fallen under the minimum requirements for companion content and there were no signs of that changing in the foreseeable future.
As such, the decision was made that Berwyn would no longer be a companion, and B agreed to write what amounted to a Swan Song for him, to give Berwyn's dangling plot thread some closure and cap off his content on a reasonable high-note.
It's...honestly a bit weird that you say that they should "make it natural, where he leaves the party to pursue his goals or something like that and not just outright remove him"...because that's exactly what happens. Berwyn figures out where his old mentor had holed up, and the champ accompanies him to confront her, and the aftermath is that Berwyn is available as an NPC at a new location (with different content), but is no longer available as a party member. Were you unaware of this?
Einin has no content though, just a handful of blurbs in disconnected scenes that were future-proofed in and which you can only see by cracking open the game. William did write a whole bunch of stuff for her but it wasn't finished and ready for submission before the deadline so none of the stuff where you'd even meet her in the first place (much less recruit her) actually exists in usable form.
And who's going to write the content to get Berry 'up to speed'? Because the amount of stuff expected to keep a companion current is the reason why the decision was made to drop him down to an NPC.
One imagines that they could have left him in as a complete content dead-end for players who didn't do BQ2, but that would have just exacerbated how much of a black hole of content he was as the game goes on and it would have set up false expectations for future players who get into the game without the benefit of following along during its development.
EDIT: Since nobody else has responded to this part yet...
And who's going to write the content to get Berry 'up to speed'? Because the amount of stuff expected to keep a companion current is the reason why the decision was made to drop him down to an NPC.
As mentioned, this is literally what happens plot-wise. The big change in gameplay terms is that he gets removed as a playable character outside his two quests, but the impact of this is pretty negligible because due to his writer being gone, he didn't have much of a role in any ongoing content. He was the one character completely missing from the Abyssal Depths, for example. Also, he was kind of the biggest party deadweight since his only set tries to do a bit of everything and only did one of them well, but that didn't synergize with anything else.
One imagines that they could have left him in as a complete content dead-end for players who didn't do BQ2, but that would have just exacerbated how much of a black hole of content he was as the game goes on and it would have set up false expectations for future players who get into the game without the benefit of following along during its development.
EDIT: Since nobody else has responded to this part yet...
Viv isn't a replacement for Berwyn, she was already in the works as a companion before Hugs left and was going to be another mage by default. That she fills a somewhat similar role is a coincidence. She has two options for Fire damage that both inflict debuffs (always nice, pairs very well with Ryn or Thiefchamp) and two abilities that grant elemental damage buffs to allies (which stack) plus summoning Ghost Doggo.
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Oh ok, I didn’t know that Viv was planned a long time before berry was removed
and why couldn’t they kept him as a companion When b was going to expand his story? I read somewhere the plans for berry that hugs had in mind, and it sounded really wholesome, why couldn’t his character be respected by following in hugs plans for berry?
and why couldn’t they kept him as a companion When b was going to expand his story? I read somewhere the plans for berry that hugs had in mind, and it sounded really wholesome, why couldn’t his character be respected by following in hugs plans for berry?
C
CMGuest
Guest
B wasn't going to expand his story. The Devs made the decision that - as Berwyn wasn't being actively written for anymore - Berwyn needed to be written out of the companion role and into an NPC role. B agreed to write that content, a one-shot that would more or less close out Berwyn's content, and leaving the character in a state that could be considered satisfactorily content complete rather than as a dangling plot thread that nobody was addressing. He did not agree to extrapolate on and run a longer campaign, so to speak.
And let me be perfectly clear here. This is not something that is up for debate. It's not even a recent change. This was an executive decision that the devs made and implemented over a year ago.
And let me be perfectly clear here. This is not something that is up for debate. It's not even a recent change. This was an executive decision that the devs made and implemented over a year ago.
Yeah, this is important to understand: Einin had her recruitment quest written and that was it. No actual content for her existing beyond that -- no sex, no talks, none of that.
Fuck what hugs wanted. He made a commitment and broke it. End of story.
I’m not sure how true is it or not, but what hugs had planned for him sounded much better than what we got
Whatever happend with hugs and the devs, that doesn’t make it right to disrespect the character and give him boobs
Whatever happend with hugs and the devs, that doesn’t make it right to disrespect the character and give him boobs
Giving Berwyn tits doesn't disrespect the character?? If you don't want him to have boobs, then don't give him boobs. It has nothing to with respect or a lack thereof.
Also, regardless of Berry's original plot being better or not, the entire point of moving Berry to an NPC was because one of the writers taking second, long-term companion to continuously write for and develop is extremely difficult and Savin didn't want to put that burden on someone. Thus, Berry was wrapped up with an absolutely wonderful farewell quest, and moved on.
In the end, the original plan for Berwyn literally does not matter. It comes down to time and commitment, and nome of the writers wanted to add a second companion to their tasks.
Also, regardless of Berry's original plot being better or not, the entire point of moving Berry to an NPC was because one of the writers taking second, long-term companion to continuously write for and develop is extremely difficult and Savin didn't want to put that burden on someone. Thus, Berry was wrapped up with an absolutely wonderful farewell quest, and moved on.
In the end, the original plan for Berwyn literally does not matter. It comes down to time and commitment, and nome of the writers wanted to add a second companion to their tasks.
It is disrespecting the the character because thats not what his original author wanted. And you know what I'm going to stop sugarcoating it B fucked over Berwyn completely. I get that Hugs couldn't finish Berwyn and no one else had the time or inclination to support him, I get that but that doesn't Justify any writer to just do whatever the fuck they want with his character.
Hugs had an outline for what kind of character he wanted Berwyn to be and B straight up ignored it by completely changing the character and turning him into parser soup with all the body and gender alterations where he initially had none and making it a complete fucking NIGHTMARE for any prospective writer who even thinks about writing content for him in the future. Something that no one asked him to do, that hugs specifically didn't want, but B did anyway because fuck it, you gotta pander to
This wouldn't be an issue for me if it was B's orginal character but it isn't and you might not give a fuck about what hugs wanted because he "broke his commitment" or whatever but that does not justify this level of disregard for all the hard work he put into this character.
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There's a waiver that you have to sign before submitting anything to the game, which happened specifically due to clusterfuck issues with the original CoC's wild west submission policy. Among the things you agree to are that while your characters are still yours for purposes of anything outside CoC2, when it comes to the game itself Savin has the right to do with it what he wills. That's there to specifically prevent situations like this where the original author leaves and their creation is stuck in limbo.
As mentioned, even if Hugs had left incredibly detailed plans for the character (and I kinda doubt this seeing how he left a bunch of half-formed characters with no clear direction lying around, like Frost Pupper and Elfboi) there was never any obligation to use them and the amount of work required would have been prohibitive. Also as I mentioned a couple days back, it's hard enough writing when something is your passion project. Now imagine trying to support someone else's passion project when you (almost by definition) don't have the same investment in it. Much easier to simply cut the thread in a way that resolves the only actual plot thread that ever got started for Berry and move on.
As mentioned, even if Hugs had left incredibly detailed plans for the character (and I kinda doubt this seeing how he left a bunch of half-formed characters with no clear direction lying around, like Frost Pupper and Elfboi) there was never any obligation to use them and the amount of work required would have been prohibitive. Also as I mentioned a couple days back, it's hard enough writing when something is your passion project. Now imagine trying to support someone else's passion project when you (almost by definition) don't have the same investment in it. Much easier to simply cut the thread in a way that resolves the only actual plot thread that ever got started for Berry and move on.
As Wolf said, you have to sign a waiver when you submit works for the game. And it wasn't that "Hugs couldn't finish Berwyn", it was that Hugs has issues and was an absolutely asshat that cut his own ties to the game and left on his own. He lost any right to have a say in anything he put in the game when he threw a hissy fit and burned his bridges. And "pandering to straight cis dudes"?? Have you actually bothered to read B's content?? He's got some of the most unique scenes and characters under his belt that consist of the most outlandish kinks and shit in the game (though his most unique writing really shines in TiTs), which definitely don't "pander to straight cis dudes" - which is such an asshole thing to say.
And as an aside, B took on the Berwyn project because Savin, the main dev of the game, asked him to. B didn't just come along like, "Oh!! Free character lolz". He put so much time, effort, and creativity to develop Berwynne into a character with an actual personality that was more than "Femboy who does nothing but jack off all day, never showers, and likes books on boats." Berwynne having a mutable body, while it does add to the parser difficulty that people have to navigate around, changes Berwynne from a niche type to someone that can fill several niches for many different players. Very few people I've talked to that do BerryQuest2 actually turn him into a cisfem - the most common one I've found is actually big tittied herm, but that's a different discussion. Making any kind of dungeon is a slog, and B not only did that, but made a dynamic one with an integrated puzzle (with a failsafe) and a unique combat mechanic that's more than just: Fist Fight/Tease it. He ALSO provided a multitude of options for resolution regarding both of the central characters - Berry and Matiha - AND post-quest talks and sex. He gave Berwynne sub possibilities instead of JUST dom ones, making him one of a few switches in the game.
If you really have THAT much of a fucking problem with it, just keep Berry in perma-limbo in the FH forever. No one is forcing you to do the content. It's one thing to be critical of content, it's another to be a complete ass about it just because it's not something you agree with.
This is why people have gotten sick of the whole discussion around berry, yunno.
first of all I'm not dealing with this ~ he signed a waiver ~ bullshit because that's not the point. I think Savin did what he had to do and I'm not faulting him for cutting Berwyn as a companion.
Second, I'm not saying B made a terrible set of characters, man is talented as ever. But what he did to Hugs' character was not justified. And whether or not hugs left on his own or was being a toxic shit and was kicked out or had mental health issues, what does any of that matter? Fact is he couldn't finish his work and I'm not really interested in why. when B took over he had no interest in preserving the character which I feel should be a priorty in any project regardless of the circumstances of the authors involved.
Second, I'm not saying B made a terrible set of characters, man is talented as ever. But what he did to Hugs' character was not justified. And whether or not hugs left on his own or was being a toxic shit and was kicked out or had mental health issues, what does any of that matter? Fact is he couldn't finish his work and I'm not really interested in why. when B took over he had no interest in preserving the character which I feel should be a priorty in any project regardless of the circumstances of the authors involved.
My gods, the horse died months ago, why are you all still beating it
Your entire argument is dependent on this assumption. As if I just woke up one day and said to myself "nah, fuck Hugs." There's a second side to every story.
If it makes you feel any better, then despite my every attempt at writing some good content for him, picking up Berwyn was the worst mistake I ever made.
A reminder than berwyns pre-expac dom/sub content, the thing that most people go gaga over, was also mostly written by B...
It's a dead subject, but...I'm not going to pretend like I'm happy with the way things are for Berwyn at this time. I'm being honest. I like the quest, I like Matiha's glowup, but the way the genderbending feature was implemented wasn't good. Logically, Wynne and Berwyn should be two different characters. Not the same entity. And please, for the love of all the gods, think of the optics of giving boobies and a vagene to a previously male character that wasn't intended OR written for such a design. Implemented poorly, people are gonna get mad about it.
There really isn't much for Bery at all outside of that and I'm wondering if he'll be given a proper burial. With how the writer seems to feel about this character now, I doubt it. Hopefully new scenes will come, if they're written. Doubt it, but one can hope.
That's pretty much all I have to criticize about it, and until something happens this topic is old as hell.
There really isn't much for Bery at all outside of that and I'm wondering if he'll be given a proper burial. With how the writer seems to feel about this character now, I doubt it. Hopefully new scenes will come, if they're written. Doubt it, but one can hope.
That's pretty much all I have to criticize about it, and until something happens this topic is old as hell.