Seeds of Chaos [Ren'py - Version 0.2.42]

Lord Arioch

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
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24
Thanks for taking the time to read it, I'll try to answer your questions the best I can and hopefully add a little clarity.
 

What game will it mostly look similar to?

I can't think of any games off the top of my head, but I'd describe it as using a visual novel GUI (character sprites, option boxes, etc.) with a menu based system for player actions, like, say, Slavemaker.
 

How are the events created? Are they generated according to some templates? Or each single event is written by someone? How many of them are already made?

Events are all designed and then scripted by a person (in this case, me). Some will simply be text over a CG illustration, while others will be visual novel style encounters. None are 'made' yet, since I'm still working on the prologue, but I have design notes for a ton of them.

How much randomness will be there? What if you start a game, and you get only bad events in a long sequence, that stops you from preparing to a higher level events?  

There are safeguards against this sort of thing in the system. For example, after an event is resolved, it is removed from the event pool (think of a discard pile), so with every bad event you "draw", the probability of the next being a bad event is decreased, and you cannot keep getting the same bad events (I'm hoping, if the game gets enough support, for all Castle and Town events to be unique. Adventure spheres might share some, but more on that in the next design post). Also the current working number of player actions per game is 200 (obviously, this may change depending on results from playtesting), separated into "turns" of 40 actions (a year). On this scale, three or four bad events in a row isn't the end of the world, and if player feedback is that there are too many bad events happening, the simple solution is just to add more beneficial ones and/or remove a few bad ones from the offending event pool.  

"- Allows regular releases of small updates in the form of new events." - now, that's where you need to be careful )) Any extra card in a deck can easily change the balance. Actually, game balancing takes a lot of time. So, no way you can make it perfectly balanced before people test it. If it appears that many people use same card/event/choise succesefully againg and again in order to progress and beat all others, it means it's unbalanced and that event/choise is too strong. Also, a classic approach to build interesting game balance, is when you have several races/abilities/events which are not eaquly strong, but with 1st one you can beat 2nd easily, with the 2nd you can beat 3rd, with 3rd you can beat 1st. So, that makes people want to learn it and think what to choose next time, according to what problem they currently have in the game. But you already know it all, probably.

The three keywords from my original design pitch were "Choice", "Balance", and "Quality", so balancing the game is a very important part of my vision for the game. The litmus test for me is that the player should be able to remove all the fapping material from the game and still enjoy playing it; it should be a good game with porn in it, not a good porn game. I'll be taking on board all the feedback from you guys when you get to play it, and I'll set up a public forum for debate among the player base if there are differing, contentious views on an event or gameplay issue. 

In regards to your examples about balancing problems, I just want to talk about what I'm calling the endgame, as hopefully it will solve some of those issues. This is the phase that occurs after all player actions have been taken, and determines the outcome of the game. It will be quite tough, and since the best rewards in the game come with a corresponding amount of risk, you won't be able to just play it safe. You'll have to make the tough decisions, face off against powerful foes, and venture deep into dangerous dungeons if you want to have a chance at beating the game.

I like challenging games, and I'd like this to be challenging, but the key is in getting the difficulty just right. I don't want you to play it the first time, and just win easily. The ideal player for me is somebody who comes into the game knowing nothing about it, fails in the endgame, and then takes what they have learned into subsequent playthroughs to do better, eventually winning and getting that "fist pump" feeling you get when you beat a crazy hard NES game or defeat a difficult Dark Souls boss. It is going to take a whole lot of time, work, and money, but I've already put nearly a year and a few thousand dollars into it, so I'm in it for the long haul. I'm just hoping there's enough people who want to take this journey with me.
 

DaviceMathews

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
112
2
That sounds like a good way to do things however couldn't that also mean that certain scenes will never show up? A new update could come out and I could play five times and never see it. 

Advantages


- The randomized nature of the Event System, combined with the fact that event pools will be modified by player decisions and other factors, adds greatly to the re-playability value of the game. When the event pool is large enough, the limited number of player actions per play-through will make it impossible to see them all in one run. 
- Allows regular releases of small updates in the form of new events.
- Allows the addition of content as text with placeholder when budgetary or time constrains regarding art would otherwise halt development.
- Tagging events allows for easy filtering of event pools, meaning a player would be able to filter out all of the kinks they are not interested in, or even all of the sex entirely. It will also allow the manipulation of difficulty if the player is struggling, or they want more of a challenge. 
- Allows for constant, micro-scale re-balancing in regards to player feedback with the addition, deduction, or modification of unbalanced events.
- Can facilitate the later development of optional expansions that can be toggled on to add a linked collection of new events, or even new spheres/pools/types.
- Allows player input in regards to content (as one time, non-story related events) without compromising canon. 
 
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Lord Arioch

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
193
24
That sounds like a good way to do things however couldn't that also mean that certain scenes will never show up? A new update could come out and I could play five times and never see it. 

That's always going to be a problem with any random system. I think the key is going to be finding that sweet spot where the event pools are just the right size to have different experiences, but not large enough that the odds of seeing events become really, really low. I also think taking another cue from board games could help here. Once the event pools are large enough, instead of constantly adding to them until they become large and unruly, alternative sets of events could be introduced (as an 'expansion') that replace other events in game, adding new content without swelling the pools. The player could then choose which sets he or she wanted to play with.
 

Lord Arioch

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
193
24
Apologies for the lateness, work has been very busy. 

The following are the design notes for the Castle, Adventure, and Town spheres, which make up the majority of the events in the game as the player chooses which action they would like to take on their turns.

 


Castle Sphere


- The Castle sphere governs all events that can occur within the castle. 
- Castle events offer you a way to advance your goals by the utilization of your settlement and resources. 
- There are three main types of Castle event; Ruler, Library, and Resource.
- Ruler events are the things that happen at the castle out of your control, and occur one per month (every four weeks). They represent the challenges that you face as a leader, and will include things like receiving visits from envoys, solving disputes between subjects, and managing a crisis. The pool for this event will be heavily influenced by previous events and choices made when encountering Judgements.
- The Library event pool represents the castle’s vast library, containing thousands of works spanning the history of the six realms. Spending an action on the Library pool is essentially like research, as the pool consists of the event subtype Secret, events which provide the player with knowledge of lore, history, and hidden locations, among other things. While Secrets are not exclusive to the Library, visiting the Library is the only guaranteed way of encountering Secret events. The player must be careful though, as not all Secrets are beneficial and a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. They may learn something that they wish they had not. 
- I’m still working on the concept and design of Resource events, but the idea is that they’ll be events related to what the settlement produces and/or offers in tribute. One idea I had was the player could choose how they want to enhance the castle (i.e. open a mine, build a forge, etc.) and that this would add corresponding events to the Resource event pool. I was also thinking about giving the settlement a few stats, such as population, resources, etc. that would interact with the Resource event pool, but I’m wary of things getting a little too stat heavy. More on this at a later date.  



Adventure Sphere


- The Adventure sphere governs all events that can occur outside of the castle and other settlements.
- Adventure events offer you a way to advance your goals via exploration.
- There are two main types of Adventure events; Exploration, and Dungeon.
- The six realms are full of woods, caves, and other places rife for adventure. Exploration events represent the things that occur when you visit locations, from encountering special characters, being ambushed by enemies, to discovering hidden locations or items. As Exploration events are more likely to bring you into contact with dangerous situations, they are more risky that Castle or Town ones. 
- Dungeons are a special type of location that have their own location specific event pools that must be discovered before they can be explored. They are the events in the game that involve the most risk, but they also offer the biggest rewards for those who are able to defeat them. Dungeons are multi-level locations containing dangerous monsters and traps, where the player can unveil valuable secrets and acquire items that cannot be found elsewhere. Some dungeons may also contain fearsome boss monsters that have their own signature event pools, offering a unique challenge for those brave enough to delve deep enough to face them. 



Town Sphere


- The Town sphere governs all events that occur in settlements outside of the castle.
- Town events offer you a way to advance your goals socially.  
- Town events represent everything that happens to your character when they are in any of the major communities of the six realms. These events are quite varied in type, and can be anything from meeting characters, to discovering a rare item in a store, or overhearing some juicy information while drinking in a tavern. The Town event pool also includes story related events, as the player is more likely to encounter people they knew prior to their new role in a populated area, and players may also be able to use their dark powers to spread corruption among the common folk.
- There is a special conditional danger that is, for the most part, related to the Town sphere; Infamy. Infamy is a stat that dictates how the player is seen by the ordinary people of the six realms. While it is low, the player is still seen as a hero, but if, as the game progresses, the player commits evil deeds, their infamy will rise until they become known as a villain. This may lead to small problems such as townsfolk being unwilling to talk to you, or even bigger ones such as being hunted by bounty hunters, or even heroes. Players will have have to determine whether the rewards from committing evil deeds are worth the headaches they may later encounter. (N.B. Infamy differs from corruption in that corruption is hidden from all normal people with the exception of those attuned to sense it, whereas even a peasant will know to refuse to associate with you if your infamy is high enough.) 


Next up are the notes for the Nemesis Event system, as well as the concept art for the first to be revealed Nemesis, The Black Swordsman.
 
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Ethereal Dragon

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
2,005
560
That's too bad about the PC only being male. :\

From what is said in an earlier post it might not remain that way depending on how popular the game gets. Granted the sudden change of direction was a big let down. I can understand why due to the cost of art and such things. Though I'm sure if this was popular enough a crowdfunding sort of thing could help with the funds bit. It's entirely up to the game maker though. Interest in this for me at least dropped off quite a bit with the sudden change of direction. This has to do of course with the lack of choice for being able to choose the sex of the PC. Remains to be seen what will happen.
 

Tainted-Alice

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Nov 20, 2015
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From what is said in an earlier post it might not remain that way depending on how popular the game gets. Granted the sudden change of direction was a big let down. I can understand why due to the cost of art and such things. Though I'm sure if this was popular enough a crowdfunding sort of thing could help with the funds bit. It's entirely up to the game maker though. Interest in this for me at least dropped off quite a bit with the sudden change of direction. This has to do of course with the lack of choice for being able to choose the sex of the PC. Remains to be seen what will happen.

Oh well that sucks i was really looking forward to this game too i hope that the option is added soon i just can't play as males in games yuck x(
 

Lord Arioch

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
193
24
In regards to those concerns, I'd just like to add I plan to develop an alternative scenario where you play as a female character (that hopefully will interact with the first one). When this appears, and how large it ends up being, depends entirely on support. Some Patreons make two hundred a month, some make twelve thousand, and until mine is up and I can properly gauge interest I have no idea if I can make a game on the scale that I want to. I'm spending a lot of my own money, working on detailed design notes about the game's core features, and preparing a demo to try and drum up some buzz, but it could still bomb. 

In short, being a female PC is still a planned feature for this game, it just won't be an early one. 
 

Sinfulwolf

New Member
Jan 31, 2016
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I have to be honest. Was really looking forward to this game. The concept was really cool, but... taking away the female PC really ruined my whole fantasy of being corrupted into a succubus of sorts and spreading the will of my mistress/master.


I still might check it out, but having that basic option taken away really hurt my interest. Planned for the unforeseeable future or no. 
 

Tainted-Alice

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Nov 20, 2015
238
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Oh okay then xD  hmmmm still it's a shame the female content gets the short end of the stick as it were and you even said that the male may end up with more content if you don't get the funds x( but its your game
I have to be honest. Was really looking forward to this game. The concept was really cool, but... taking away the female PC really ruined my whole fantasy of being corrupted into a succubus of sorts and spreading the will of my mistress/master.


I still might check it out, but having that basic option taken away really hurt my interest. Planned for the unforeseeable future or no. 

Yeah i have to agree with this completely such a pity x(
 

Kesil

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
3,447
2,161
I agree. Okay, heterosexual male people are the ones who play smut games the most, but I am not sure if it'd change if developers deliberately discard having a female PC around. Also, I can't be the only one who has read lots of " When it comes to customisable characters, I play with female characters because I get to see so and so" from male players on gaming forums.
 

Tainted-Alice

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Nov 20, 2015
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I agree. Okay, heterosexual male people are the ones who play smut games the most, but I am not sure if it'd change if developers deliberately discard having a female PC around. Also, I can't be the only one who has read lots of " When it comes to customisable characters, I play with female characters because I get to see so and so" from male players on gaming forums.

Yep choice is always good :)
 

art926

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2015
149
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I'm completely disagree with the previous comments. There are tons of games around where you play female character and corrupt her. Or play male, that you turn into female. The whole TF Games Site is about that, actually. And there are very few such games where you can play masculine male character. If developer has limited resources and trying to make lots of high-quality art for his game, he has to find a compromise. By making the game about a male main character and female/male foes and companions, he can aim for straight and bi (if he decides) content at same time quite easily. So, it's more than 90% market, I think. But making a game about female f..cking with other females, what public can he target? Straight males, who prefer play females and see  her in lesbian sex? Or lesbians? Not clear to me why so many people here and on TF Games site want that content.  Imagine some AAA game, like Witcher 3, to allow player to be only female (and I say "only" not because I don't like choice, I do like! But developers have very limited resources and time!). What would it become? I wouldn't like to play such Witch(er). And the developers are straight actually! So, you can't blame them in paying not enough attention to female breasts. Not at all, they added a lot of hot girls there that you can romance! But they kept main character masculine and brave, which I like a lot.


P.S. Sorry for mistakes, if there are any. Not a native speaker.
 

DaviceMathews

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
112
2
'm completely disagree with the previous comments. There are tons of games around where you play female character and corrupt her. Or play male, that you turn into female. The whole TF Games Site is about that, actually. And there are very few such games where you can play masculine male character.

You have articulated what I wanted to thx :)
 

Void Director

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
198
6
Limiting the game to a single gender is a very sensible choice if the player character will appear in art. Time and money are limited and its always tempting to make the scope of the game huge, but that way lies peril. 


Anyhow, the event system sounds interesting.  As far as decisions go how do you plan to keep users from simply memorising which choices lead to good outcomes? Or do all possible choices have upsides and downsides? This is an issue I have in my game. in FTL, one of my big inspirations, some choices have both upsides and downsides. Others are just purely advantageous. I am undecided as to whether that is good or bad. On one hand it rewards experienced players on the other it creates dominant strategies and reduces the game to memorisation (or reading a guide).


Best of luck with your game.
 
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TheDarkMaster

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Creator
Aug 28, 2015
1,052
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One way around the issue of players being able to look up what will happen from certain choices is to have the game basically tell you what will happen.  Like, "The elves will repay your assistance with a magical artifact."  "The goblins have great wealth to pay you for helping them subdue the elves." if the results for one choice or another are fixed.  On the other hand, you can have things like FTL does where each choice has a good and bad result for each choice, but which you get is random.
 

Tainted-Alice

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Nov 20, 2015
238
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I'm completely disagree with the previous comments. There are tons of games around where you play female character and corrupt her. Or play male, that you turn into female. The whole TF Games Site is about that, actually. And there are very few such games where you can play masculine male character. If developer has limited resources and trying to make lots of high-quality art for his game, he has to find a compromise. By making the game about a male main character and female/male foes and companions, he can aim for straight and bi (if he decides) content at same time quite easily. So, it's more than 90% market, I think. But making a game about female f..cking with other females, what public can he target? Straight males, who prefer play females and see  her in lesbian sex? Or lesbians? Not clear to me why so many people here and on TF Games site want that content.  Imagine some AAA game, like Witcher 3, to allow player to be only female (and I say "only" not because I don't like choice, I do like! But developers have very limited resources and time!). What would it become? I wouldn't like to play such Witch(er). And the developers are straight actually! So, you can't blame them in paying not enough attention to female breasts. Not at all, they added a lot of hot girls there that you can romance! But they kept main character masculine and brave, which I like a lot.


P.S. Sorry for mistakes, if there are any. Not a native speaker.

I for one would have loved the witcher games if it didn't have the manly man as you put it and the whole game was about Siri in fact her inclusion is the only reason i bought and played the Witcher 3 so no i personally would love such a game it would be very refreshing with all the dood bro main characters in games.
 

art926

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2015
149
26
I also thought about that event system. If I was making it, I would add choice to most events. And consequences would depend on character stats and small random portion. Like, for example: 


You meet Orc on a road. He doesn't seem to notice you. What do you do?  1. Attach him suddenly. 2. Hide. 3. Run away. 4.Try to robe him. 5. Try to talk.


And depending on character stats and some randomization, each choice could lead to a good or bad result. If player doesn't know how much strength he needs to successfully attack the orc, agility to hide or rob him, charm or intellect to talk his way out, it's going to be really fun!!! You think your character is strong enough? Then you try attack! Ooops... He appeared not that strong actually... The orc smashes your skull... (or robes you, or rapes... whatever the developer decided). The game gives some hint that you didn't have enough strength for that action. Or, if it was a random contribution to the result, it explains that you almost won him, but a flying by bird destructed you and you missed your strike and lost. 


That would be fun to play :D
 

Nephilim_Anunnaki

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Sep 7, 2015
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I for one would have loved the witcher games if it didn't have the manly man as you put it and the whole game was about Siri in fact her inclusion is the only reason i bought and played the Witcher 3 so no i personally would love such a game it would be very refreshing with all the dood bro main characters in games.

Then enjoy yourself, the witcher 3 is the last one with Geralt, next ones you will play as Ciri.
 
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Kesil

Well-Known Member
Aug 26, 2015
3,447
2,161
There are tons of games around where you play female character and corrupt her. Or play male, that you turn into female. The whole TF Games Site is about that, actually. And there are very few such games where you can play masculine male character. If developer has limited resources and trying to make lots of high-quality art for his game, he has to find a compromise. By making the game about a male main character and female/male foes and companions, he can aim for straight and bi (if he decides) content at same time quite easily. So, it's more than 90% market, I think. But making a game about female f..cking with other females, what public can he target? Straight males, who prefer play females and see  her in lesbian sex? Or lesbians? Not clear to me why so many people here and on TF Games site want that content. 

I was advocating for choice here. Sometimes, people play smut games to fulfill fantasies (and it seems that male to female TF is a popular one). Thus, having a main character avatar that represents who you are or who you'd like to be should be a must. I don't know about what other females are like when it comes to erotica, but I don't like to place myself as the NPC. If the developer has to stick to a single choice due to having limited resources, well, fair deal, but...

choice is always good :)

Furthermore, I feel that it's always nice if one can offer something different when possible. Back in the old forum, there was this thread about how CoC made people realise they were interested in something they hadn't thought of before or outright hated, be it cuntnipples, oviposition or what-have-you.


P.S. It's "fucking". Come on, you can type it.
 
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Lord Arioch

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Sep 5, 2015
193
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I'm going to talk about choice soon, I've been working on a post and it'll be up after the next one on player stats and equipment, but the short version is I plan to involve all the things you have mentioned; outcomes for an event generated randomly by integers (i.e. a dice roll), outcomes for an event generated by stats, and by some new events being added from a pool of multiple new events at random.

As mentioned previously, today I'm going to talk a little about Nemeses. With the final boss, so to speak, being mostly confined to the endgame, I wanted to have a constant enemy that the player encountered throughout the game. Originally, I had been working on something similar to the concept of a rival; a character that you met at certain points of the game, interacted with, and the choices made during these meetings had a different effect going forward, but this seemed a bit limiting. Even if they acted different due to your choices, they were always going to be essentially the same character. In addition, I felt the idea of having just one enemy didn't really sit well with the world I am trying to create, as there are many different people and organizations in the six realms vying for power like the main character. 

So the Nemesis Event system is my attempt to create more potential for replayability, while representing the different factions the player is competing against. The Nemesis is an adversary drawn from a pool of potential enemies that the player has to face repeatedly as the game progresses. They all have different backgrounds, methods, motives, and masters, but are united by their relentless pursuit of the player character.


The Nemesis Event


- The Nemesis Event is a special type of event that exists outside the bounds of the main event spheres, and it has its own special set of rules.
- Nemesis events represent the plots and actions of the Nemeses, and as a result can occur at any time. Nemesis events have a random chance of being encountered regardless of the event pool chosen.   
- Nemeses are unflinching in their desire to destroy you, and this is reflected in their events, which consist of hard choices, and difficult challenges with punishing consequences. Failure to do well against Nemeses will result in steep penalties, and perhaps even more devastating events being added to their pool. Succeeding, however, will force the Nemeses to suffer setbacks of their own.
- There will also be additional ways to weaken, delay, and even defeat the Nemeses, but these will all require an investment of player turns, and have little overall outcome on the endgame. The player will have to choose whether to spend turns planning for the Nemeses and lose time that could be spent elsewhere, or risk the chance of encountering powerful Nemesis events unprepared.  
- Adding additional Nemeses allows new events, lore, locations, and new challenges to be added to the game without having to make large adjustments to the core game. 


And the first Nemesis.... The Black Swordsman

rsz_zerias2.jpg
 
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Tainted-Alice

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Nov 20, 2015
238
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I'm going to talk about choice soon, I've been working on a post and it'll be up after the next one on player stats and equipment, but the short version is I plan to involve all the things you have mentioned; outcomes for an event generated randomly by integers (i.e. a dice roll), outcomes for an event generated by stats, and by some new events being added from a pool of multiple new events at random.

As mentioned previously, today I'm going to talk a little about Nemeses. With the final boss, so to speak, being mostly confined to the endgame, I wanted to have a constant enemy that the player encountered throughout the game. Originally, I had been working on something similar to the concept of a rival; a character that you met at certain points of the game, interacted with, and the choices made during these meetings had a different effect going forward, but this seemed a bit limiting. Even if they acted different due to your choices, they were always going to be essentially the same character. In addition, I felt the idea of having just one enemy didn't really sit well with the world I am trying to create, as there are many different people and organizations in the six realms vying for power like the main character. 

So the Nemesis Event system is my attempt to create more potential for replayability, while representing the different factions the player is competing against. The Nemesis is an adversary drawn from a pool of potential enemies that the player has to face repeatedly as the game progresses. They all have different backgrounds, methods, motives, and masters, but are united by their relentless pursuit of the player character.


The Nemesis Event


- The Nemesis Event is a special type of event that exists outside the bounds of the main event spheres, and it has its own special set of rules.
- Nemesis events represent the plots and actions of the Nemeses, and as a result can occur at any time. Nemesis events have a random chance of being encountered regardless of the event pool chosen.   
- Nemeses are unflinching in their desire to destroy you, and this is reflected in their events, which consist of hard choices, and difficult challenges with punishing consequences. Failure to do well against Nemeses will result in steep penalties, and perhaps even more devastating events being added to their pool. Succeeding, however, will force the Nemeses to suffer setbacks of their own.
- There will also be additional ways to weaken, delay, and even defeat the Nemeses, but these will all require an investment of player turns, and have little overall outcome on the endgame. The player will have to choose whether to spend turns planning for the Nemeses and lose time that could be spent elsewhere, or risk the chance of encountering powerful Nemesis events unprepared.  
- Adding additional Nemeses allows new events, lore, locations, and new challenges to be added to the game without having to make large adjustments to the core game. 


And the first Nemesis.... The Black Swordsman


View attachment 2711

This sounds like a very interesting concept i find myself liking this idea and the art is amazing xD
 

Lord Arioch

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
193
24
A little more concept art to keep you going, this time Araug, the Fel Dragon, one of the six realms major dark forces.

rsz_araug.jpg
 

Cloudmonkey98

Member
Nov 8, 2015
6
0
All this talk of Event Decks and such is reminding me of a Browser game I play called "Fallen London" which might be worth a peek, and for a more transient version of that, look at "Below", made by one of the guys on Fallen London's team using the same core engine and stuff, but meant as a small dungeon crawler type thing, in any case, I hope you make things work out, in particular the Nemesis System worries me, largely on how badly RNG might fuck you over(unless there is some sort of invisible timer before you can get another Nemesis Draw or some other means of preventing the player from getting shitstomped multiple times in a row with no break)
 

Lord Arioch

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
193
24
I've heard of Fallen London, but never played it, I'll check them both out. I was more inspired by recent board/card games that replace the need for a player to be the DM, like Warhammer Quest: TCG, and especially Adam Poots' excellent Kingdom Death: Monster.

It's highly likely the Nemesis system will have some sort of variable that acts as a hard timer before you can get another one, it is easy enough to code and it isn't meant to be really unfair.
 

Lord Arioch

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
193
24
Post on stats / equipment coming tomorrow, but in the meantime, here's a teaser sprite sheet for Rowan, the male main character.

Rowan Sheet.jpg