Thoughts on bow balance/design?

[CuteBruiser]

Is it just me or are bows a little underpowered? Bessy Mauler aside, of course.

Bows do almost entirely Penetrating damage, which is a pretty awful damage type.

And hybrid bow builds with Whitewood Bow or Gimble Gyre seem worse than just:
1. Going full magic with wands. Enemies generally have lower ward, and wands have much better damage types + more stats for spellcasting.
2. Going full physical with thrown weapons. Chrysanthemum Petal + Kunai being the big one. Thrown builds also have better damage types, Petal constantly gives you the amazing Bless buff, and you can even use melee skills if you like.

The versatility of being able to switch between attacking physically and magically with hybrid bows isn't really rewarded much in the game right now.

What is the niche of bows supposed to be, besides fulfilling that sexy ranger fantasy?

 

[Bobonga]

In my opinion, the bows are fine. They are comparable to other common two-handed weapons in dmg potential, armor penetration or evasion stats. A common theme with bows is, that they have negative crit and positive accuracy. The warbow is the only one with no accuracy modifier. They are also ranged weapons, which gives them an edge over melee weapons.


In my opinion there are 4 note worthy bows. The bessy mauler for high dmg. The beasts killer for good overall stats and blight dmg, coupled with early availability and alot of early game enemies are weak to blight . The taeleran longbow for good dmg with very high accuracy (pairs nicely with triple threat). And finally the hunting bow with +10 to initiative.

In the case of the wands, I see more a issue in the game design. They really shouldn't scale with attackpower, but with spellpower instead. In fact Kyokos weapon has a special effect that it scales of spellpower. If wands would scale with spellpower, they would give mages a usable normal attack, while not being usuable with powers that give attackpower. It's not only the favourable dmg types and targetting ward, it's also that there one handed. Which means that you can use a shield or catalyst to further bolster your spellcasting. Conclusion: There is no reason to use bows over wands.

Comparing bows to the petal + kunai combo is a bit unfair. Petal + Kunai is the THE wombo combo in the game and I'm not sure if any other setup can come close to it. I'd say that the bows can compare to other thrown weapons. In comparison to non-light throwable weapons its a question of utility. Weapons like the javelin or Sky piercer lack AP and dmg, but having a shield is nice. A disadvantage of dual-wielded thrown weapons is, that they have negative accuracy to begin with and the off-hand one gets additional -10 accuracy. Also the off-hand does not benefit from most powers. Bows are far more likely to hit than both dual weapons. The utility of using both melee and ranged weapons is debatable. From my experience the powers Leorah can teach you are sufficient. Especially triple threat can be a devastating power, but the -25 accuracy hurts thrown weapons. Bows not so much.

Thrown builds also have better damage types

Could you please elaborate? Most of the thrown weapons do penetrating dmg as well. Syk piercer, Blight tendril and Flaming Dagger lack AP. Fire isn't a good elemental type. Storm is neutral to most which is fine. The tendril deals high blight dmg, but I argue that the beast killer is the overall better choice. And of course holy from the petal, but nothing can compare to it anyway.

 

[CuteBruiser]

In my opinion, the bows are fine. They are comparable to other common two-handed weapons in dmg potential...

I agree, they seem more or less in line with 2H weapons.

In my opinion there are 4 note worthy bows. The bessy mauler for high dmg. The beasts killer for good overall stats and blight dmg, coupled with early availability and alot of early game enemies are weak to blight . The taeleran longbow for good dmg with very high accuracy (pairs nicely with triple threat). And finally the hunting bow with +10 to initiative.

Bessy Mauler is definitely an outlier, and I actually totally forgot about the Beast Killer, which is indeed a solid weapon! In retrospect, Taeleeran Longbow's accuracy may let you spec less points into Agility and/or facilitate abilities like Triple Threat. I'm less enthusiastic about the Hunting Bow, however. While it's interesting and unique, I rarely find myself needing +10 initiative, especially since it comes at an opportunity cost.

In the case of the wands, I see more a issue in the game design. They really shouldn't scale with attackpower, but with spellpower instead. In fact Kyokos weapon has a special effect that it scales of spellpower. If wands would scale with spellpower, they would give mages a usable normal attack, while not being usuable with powers that give attackpower.

That makes sense to me. It does mean mages have no reason really to ever take Strength (you're hardly taking it for the armor and if I understand correctly, wands use magic pen), but the benefits of such a change seem worth it.

Comparing bows to the petal + kunai combo is a bit unfair. Petal + Kunai is the THE wombo combo in the game and I'm not sure if any other setup can come close to it. I'd say that the bows can compare to other thrown weapons.

Haha. Right. I suppose thrown weapons in general are not that out of line compared to bows. It's more of a problem with Petal than with bows.


Overall conclusion seems to be that bows are indeed worse ranged weapons than wands but are otherwise reasonably balanced against other relevant weapon categories (2H, Thrown), so long as outliers like Petal (and on the flip side, Bessy Mauler) are taken out of the equation.

Thank you for your thoughts & analysis!